OOTS-verse and Monster-PC relationships

[t209]

I am not sure if there was thread discussing on this subject.
So as far as we know Goblins are considered low-end of the totem as "XP fodders" to the point of being driving point of Redcloak--by extension of Dark One--to make Goblins equal among Humans, Dwarves, and Elves.
Other monster races (Orcs, Kobolds, Lizard Folks, and Ogres) doesn't have the same animosity towards the "core PC races" compared the goblins, to an extent even mingled with them to the point that an Orc/ Half-Orc is a Cleric of Tyr in this strip, Kobolds (the other XP fodder race) being more or less left alone, and Bozzok as a mob boss for other end of social totem, Therkla as a ninja for an aristocratic family, or Western Continents having Lizardfolks in higher ranking positions.
The questions I wanted to raise is 1. does the pantheons show double standard towards monster races since goblins were left out while the "xp fodders" gets more privileges 2. what is the relationship between monsters and PC race in general? 3. How the Orcs, Kobolds, and other races managed to remain neutral with humans along with lacking ambitions as the Dark Ones.

[DataNinja]

Well, clearly there are monster-PC relationships. Just look at Roy and Celia.

...wait, not what you meant?

[t209]

Well, clearly there are monster-PC relationships. Just look at Roy and Celia.

...wait, not what you meant?

I meant "XP Fodders and go-to-for-dungeons-monsters-that-would-not-have-moral-repercussions races".
Just that OOTS seems to be odd one out for "unintentional endorsement of racism in Fantasy and D&D" deconstruction having Goblins being the only race at bottom of the cosmic hierarchy while other fodder races seems to more or less cordial,at least not that animous as Goblins, with playable races (even becoming one at some point).

[snowblizz]

I am not sure if there was thread discussing on this subject.
So as far as we know Goblins are considered low-end of the totem as "XP fodders" to the point of being driving point of Redcloak--by extension of Dark One--to make Goblins equal among Humans, Dwarves, and Elves.

Redcloak isn't exactly interested in equality. We've seen what Redcloaks "equality" looks like. Redcloak is into revenge, nothing more.

Other monster races (Orcs, Kobolds, Lizard Folks, and Ogres) doesn't have the same animosity towards the "core PC races" compared the goblins, to an extent even mingled with them to the point that an Orc/ Half-Orc is a Cleric of Tyr in this strip, Kobolds (the other XP fodder race) being more or less left alone, and Bozzok as a mob boss for other end of social totem, Therkla as a ninja for an aristocratic family, or Western Continents having Lizardfolks in higher ranking positions.
The questions I wanted to raise is 1. does the pantheons show double standard towards monster races since goblins were left out while the "xp fodders" gets more privileges 2. what is the relationship between monsters and PC race in general? 3. How the Orcs, Kobolds, and other races managed to remain neutral with humans along with lacking ambitions as the Dark Ones.

1) Yes and no. The pantheons seem kinda even handedly sucky towards their creations. In my view the Northern area seems worse though, but that was also the place the DO originally ravaged IIRC. What we see with goblins, and more specifically, any goblins Redcloak comes across (ones where he doesn't get to go on his first impulse seems to be able to live in some kind of peace), is as the Giant said a result of tit for tat retaliation for previous acts committed without anyone really knowing what the instigating factor was.
2) I'm not sure there is any general mPC to PC relations, I think it will depend entirely on local circumstances. In most of the Western continent everyone seems to be set against everyone else anyway. What we seen in the South, watchful mutual distrust can work and even in the North as long as the Orcs get left alone when watching rockconcerts things work out.
3) I think is more a question that most are able live and let go without instigators like the Sapphire Guard and now Redcloak. Which are likely not the only ones, but the ones who matter for this story.

[Vulkos]

Redcloak isn't exactly interested in equality. We've seen what Redcloaks "equality" looks like. Redcloak is into revenge, nothing more.

The first step towards equality is always "revenge" as seen by those who retained unequal power until then.

Plenty of examples in real life.

[Jasdoif]

Redcloak isn't exactly interested in equality. We've seen what Redcloaks "equality" looks like. Redcloak is into revenge, nothing more.

I think it's a bit more accurate to say he's more into convincing himself that he isn't the amoral monster that he is. He's after revenge, to be sure, but in a very specific way: one that intentionally doubles down on all the bad decisions he knows he's made, so he'll be able to tell himself they were all worth it in the end.

The number of goblinoids he's killed, in the pursuit of completing the Plan with Xykon despite the number of goblinoids he's killed; kind of shows how low "equality for goblinoids (who are not me)" is on Redcloak's list of priorities. Well, unless "equally disposable" counts.

[woweedd]

I think it's a bit more accurate to say he's more into convincing himself that he isn't the amoral monster that he is. He's after revenge, to be sure, but in a very specific way: one that intentionally doubles down on all the bad decisions he knows he's made, so he'll be able to tell himself they were all worth it in the end.

The number of goblinoids he's killed, in the pursuit of completing the Plan with Xykon despite the number of goblinoids he's killed; kind of shows how low "equality for goblinoids (who are not me)" is on Redcloak's list of priorities. Well, unless "equally disposable" counts.

Exactly: Redcloak once cared about requilty, but, now, he only wants it because it will kill his guilt about

Spoiler

Show

killing his little brother in cold blood.

Goblinoid equality (or, more accurately, "fulfilling The Dark One's plan, which may include killing all currently-existing goblins") is just a means to that end

[Synesthesy]

If you read on the origin of PCs,

Spoiler

Show

Roy's first party did not have any problem in trying to kill a bunch of heavy metal orc fan, and the Order of the Stick as first enemies meets some kobolds that they kill (well, let's say that they caused their death) with no questions.

What I see is that there are monsters more integrated then others. But only Western lizardfolks are really integrated in their society, the others may be or not. The fact that we didn't see any strong nation making war against some sentient monster tribe is only because this story is about that nation and that holy order that made war against goblins, and not another one.

[Grey Watcher]

I actually wonder how much of this discrepancy is owed to the events surrounding the death of the Dark One. The sheer amount of violence that happened in the aftermath almost certainly worsened the reputation of goblins in the eyes of the PC races. So as a result, goblins are much more actively shut out than their peers. (If Team Peregrine is any indication, the elves in particular seem to retain a particularly strong animus. Probably has to do with long lifespans and therefore fewer generations. "Goblins killed my grandfather" carries a lot more emotional weight than "goblins killed my great-great-great-great-great grandfather.")

Though I wonder if the Azurites (and maybe the elves) are just unusually hostile to goblins. I mean, Cliffport seems OK with the idea of trading with the goblins, which is a much better attitude than "the only Good goblin is a dead goblin."

[Quizatzhaderac]

an Orc/ Half-Orc is a Cleric of Tyr in this strip, ...... and Bozzok as a mob boss for other end of social totem, Therkla as a ninja for an aristocratic family

Kabuto also employs a literal devil. Therka is never shown unmasked in public and it's also stated that it would be inappropriate for her friend to invite her to her wedding.

Bozzok is a crime boss, which isn't a position that requires a lot of conventional social respectability. Historically a lot of the more established criminal organizations formed around a core of people who couldn't become respectable members of society regardless of wealth, power, or behavior.

Tyr's cleric is not really indicated to have any standing in human society. For all we know Tyr isn't allowed to build temples in most major cities.

We also have the example from OotPC where people react to the mere presence of orcs with violence.

My understanding is that Orcs are an xp fodder race, and half Orcs are a treated like a disenfranchised minority.

Regarding kobolds: I'm under the impression that they basically are a fodder race in the north and south. Being left alone most of the time doesn't negate that. A D&D campaign takes place the minority of time something exciting happens, when trouble breaks out with the kobolds; a setting includes all the boring times needed for the adventures to makes sense, including the kobolds growing up and trouble not breaking out yet.

Regarding the west: I think the humans simply lack the means to marginalize the kobolds or lizardfolk. The humans are just to fractured and conflicting to properly repress others. Perhaps the western pantheon has a better attitude towards the monster races. Perhaps the western pantheon has the same attitude towards the monster races, but just counts humans among them.

[CriticalFailure]

I don't think it's so much the only thing Redcloak cares about as it is his top priority.

[t209]

Kabuto also employs a literal devil. Therka is never shown unmasked in public and it's also stated that it would be inappropriate for her friend to invite her to her wedding.

Well, she was shown unmasked when making deals with tea house owner, bonsai cutter, sushi stall owner, and fish monger in her story.

[Mike Havran]

1. The Pantheons made the double standards in the first place. No display of double standard is more convincing than that, especially since we now know this is like trillionth time they design Mortal plane.

2. I doubt thare are many Monster race denizens who delve in such broad-scope matters, most of them are primarily concerned with bare survival (their, their tribe's etc.). So their relationship with PC races is based on local matters rather than some universal PCrace vs NPCrace attitude.

3. Likewise, if they can trade peacefully with the PC races, it's probably enough for them. I guess most of their societies are authoritarian, so if the chief is relatively reasonable (like Grukgruk), the tribe has no need to lash out on others.

[Fyraltari]

Orcs really seem to get it as bad from adventurers as goblins do.

[t209]

Orcs really seem to get it as bad from adventurers as goblins do.

In honesty, this kinda made Roy's party unique.

Spoiler: On the Origin Of The PCs

Show

At least when he decided to see that the "orc raiders" were metal concert fans and talked things out with locals, much to chagrin of his old party.
Just curious but are these guys in the linked comic the same one from Origin of the PCs?

[Grey Watcher]

Spoiler

Show

Just curious but are these guys in the linked comic the same one from Origin of the PCs?

Spoiler: I guess very, very, very, very minor On the Origin of PCs

Show

No, none of them had curly hair and the one woman in that party was an arcane spellcaster (probably, she wore robes and used magic), not a warrior. I do think the red-caped guy in the linked comic is supposed to be Elan's old boss, though.

[The Pilgrim]

The more the story advances, the more I'm inclined to call bull**** on all the Dark One's tale about the Goblins being created just as a cannon fodder race.

How come all the other monster races, even kobolds, manage to get support from deities belonging to the regular pantheons, except just the ones that chose to shun the original Gods and raise their own, outcast, God?

Aren't orcs, kobolds, beastmen, ratmen, lizardfolk... likely to have been created as XP-fodder also? Yet they are recognized by the Gods as people, to the level of getting members of those races as their High Priests, no less!

I think we are gonna get some kind of plot-twisting reveal in this last book, about that.

[Quizatzhaderac]

The more the story advances, the more I'm inclined to call bull**** on all the Dark One's tale about the Goblins being created just as a cannon fodder race.

I think it's more accurate to say the story is an oversimplification.

There are 49 gods in three pantheons, so every decision is made for potentially dozens of reasons.

Also, each fact of the world might be the product of any number of divine decisions.

Some gods may have wanted every race to have dignity and stability. Some gods may have wanted every race to unstable and die like fruit flies. Some may have wanted a contrast of civilized and savage races, but disagreed on which races should be which. In a democracy few people get exactly what they want.

Also the gods change. Maybe orcs started worship Tyr and that eventually shaped how Tyr views orcs?

What we do know is that at least one god accepts kobolds (probably Tiamat), at least one or more accepts orcs (or maybe two depending on what that green southerner is), one accepts ratfolk (probably rat), one accepts lizardfolk, et cetra. Acceptance by one god of one pantheon doesn't mean the rest don't think you're cannon fodder.

[Grey Watcher]

I think it's more accurate to say the story is an oversimplification.

True. One of the things I appreciate it is that every telling of the creation story of this world doesn't involve the teller actually lying (except maybe the lie of omission that there were worlds between the first one and this one, at any rate). It's just that none of them actually knows the complete story. The world inside the rift, for example, seems to be a surprise even to Odin. So the Dark One, like everyone else, is basically filling in the gaps in their knowledge as best they can, possibly making mistakes along the way. And "all the gods have it out for all the monsters races" could very well be the Dark One painting with an overly broad brush. (You could really get into the weeds here and argue, as I'm sure TDO would, that an insufficiently vehement objection is tantamount to complicity. But that's way too thorny a debate for my tastes at the moment.)

There are 49 gods in three pantheons ...

I don't doubt you, but I am curious as to how you arrived at this exact figure. (ie, exactly 49 instead of "about 50" or "at least 49")

Also, each fact of the world might be the product of any number of divine decisions.

Some gods may have wanted every race to have dignity and stability. Some gods may have wanted every race to unstable and die like fruit flies. Some may have wanted a contrast of civilized and savage races, but disagreed on which races should be which. In a democracy few people get exactly what they want.

Also the gods change. Maybe orcs started worship Tyr and that eventually shaped how Tyr views orcs?

What we do know is that at least one god accepts kobolds (probably Tiamat), at least one or more accepts orcs (or maybe two depending on what that green southerner is), one accepts ratfolk (probably rat), one accepts lizardfolk, et cetra. Acceptance by one god of one pantheon doesn't mean the rest don't think you're cannon fodder.

Relatedly, gods have been shown to regret past actions, so it's entirely possible that some gods willingly signed up for plan Cannon Fodder while creating the world and have since become genuinely horrified at the consequences. Tough to really say until and unless it comes up in comic.

[ijuinkun]

I don't doubt you, but I am curious as to how you arrived at this exact figure. (ie, exactly 49 instead of "about 50" or "at least 49")

I assume that the number 49 comes from counting all of the High Priest(esses) shown in http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0999.html

[Grey Watcher]

I assume that the number 49 comes from counting all of the High Priest(esses) shown in http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0999.html

I figured, but Hel might not be the only deity to have trouble getting their representative there in time. Granted, no one is conspicuous by their absence, and the Southern godsmoot appears complete (since the total number of gods has been explicitly mentioned multiple times), but who's to say that, I dunno, Nabu couldn't pry his high priest away from their books. And heck, for all we know, there are more priests that are behind the "camera" in the Western godsmoot.

Plus, while I've got no proof to go on with this, 19 seems a little small for "the entire Babylonian pantheon plus elves who have ascended in the meantime." Especially since the Northern moot clocks in at 18 before demigods, and that just has Norse gods: no Clanggedin or Moradin in there.

So, assuming none of those Westerners are demigods, we've got at least 49, but there might be more.

[Doug Lampert]

I figured, but Hel might not be the only deity to have trouble getting their representative there in time. Granted, no one is conspicuous by their absence, and the Southern godsmoot appears complete (since the total number of gods has been explicitly mentioned multiple times), but who's to say that, I dunno, Nabu couldn't pry his high priest away from their books. And heck, for all we know, there are more priests that are behind the "camera" in the Western godsmoot.

Plus, while I've got no proof to go on with this, 19 seems a little small for "entire Babylon pantheon plus elves who have ascended in the meantime." Especially since the Northern moot clocks in at 18 before demigods, and that just has Norse gods: no Clanggedin or Moradin in there.

So, assuming none of those Westerners are demigods, we've got at least 49, but there might be more.

A minimum of 49 rather than a hard value of 49 actually strengthens his point, although the elven gods weaken the point if they are current universe ascensions since that's fewer "votes" at the creation.

Basically, any claim that "The gods want X" is almost certainly false in TOotS land. Even keeping the snarl contained has TDO as a dissenting voice.

[t209]

Continuing the discussion,
The influences by individual gods might be part of why Orcs, Kobolds, and non goblinoids not having enough animosity to create the Dark One. And the individuals might not share the XP fodder idea as well.

Spoiler: Origin of the PCs, Start Of Darkness, and O Chul PDF

Show

- Durkon doesn’t seem to share “Kill Orcs” as the other party members and actually joined Roy for being open minded.
- Right Eye and his family visiting a circus without being killed, let alone discriminated, in an area populated with humans. At least before they snuck MitD from there.
- O-Chul, besides trying to stop a pointless war, seems to be skeptical about “evil races” by reflecting his background as a child of bandits to Hobgoblins as a whole.

Speaking of which, what about the Drows? Besides the Drizzt parody and background extras, I am not sure what their place would be. Does Lolth/at least her parody exists in OOTS?

[CriticalFailure]

Speaking of which, what about the Drows? Besides the Drizzt parody and background extras, I am not sure what their place would be.

Probably underground.

[Quizatzhaderac]

I figured, but Hel might not be the only deity to have trouble getting their representative there in time.

It somewhat defeats the point of the gods-moots to have gods unrepresented. Hel is (I presume lawful) and nominal agreed to terms that exclude her but yet force her to conform to the godsmoot's rules.

Loki's trick is just that, a trick, not something we should look for ever happening again ever.

Plus, while I've got no proof to go on with this, 19 seems a little small for "the entire Babylonian pantheon plus elves who have ascended in the meantime."

This is the comic book version of the pantheon. A D&D pantheon would not need or want all 32 major deities on that list. Rich only needs 19 to make it look like a full pantheon with diverse gods; he doesn't need 19 true individuals, and he's stated he doesn't much care about mythological accuracy.

Speaking of which, what about the Drows? Besides the Drizzt parody and background extras, I am not sure what their place would be. Does Lolth/at least her parody exists in OOTS?

There appears to be a drow priestess in 999, presumably of Lolth. Tarquin has also suggested there's a significant drow polity.

My best guess is they occupy the underdark under the western continent, particularly under the goaway mountains. They don't participate in the events of the comic because they're too preoccupied with their struggles with the rock-aarakocra and the dark latern-archons.

[Grey Watcher]

It somewhat defeats the point of the gods-moots to have gods unrepresented. Hel is (I presume lawful) and nominal agreed to terms that exclude her but yet force her to conform to the godsmoot's rules.

Loki's trick is just that, a trick, not something we should look for ever happening again ever.

Admittedly, I don't think anyone else is being deliberately excluded. (Even Hel being excluded is a side effect rather than the intent of The Bet.) But an ill-timed random encounter and a streak of bad die rolls could very well wind up costing a particularly deity their vote. (My example with Nabu was kind of spurious, wasn't it?)