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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Titan in the Playground
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    Default Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXIX: Miracle on 39th Thread

    Warhammer 40,000 in the Playground


    I'm new to the hobby. How do I start?
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    The best and most obvious way to start is either a) Dark Imperium, or b) Know No Fear. This will get you a solid and relatively cheap start on either an Adeptus Astartes* army, or a Death Guard army. If you aren't starting the game with a friend, you can almost always offload the 'other side' that you don't want to recoup some of your money back. If you don't want to play Adeptus Astartes or Death Guard, you will almost definitely want to look into Start Collecting! boxes - with a few exceptions.

    *Due to how GW uses the same Astartes models across several different Codecies, an 'Astartes' army - in this context - could mean Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Marines, Space Wolves, and, at the very outside, you could even start a Deathwatch army with Dark Imperium or KNF. The models found in Dark Imperium/KNF, work best with Dark Angels or Space Marines. But, until you have a Codex (or even just Datacards), you don't have to make that decision.

    However, just having the models, isn't really enough to play the game - you will need a rulebook. Dark Imperium comes with a rulebook, whilst Know No Fear, doesn't. That being said, Games Workshop offers the core rules to play the game on their website. So, if you can't afford a rulebook, and you just want to start playing the game with your friends, as long as you're matching Power Rating, you should be mostly okay...Mostly.

    Also, you need dice. ~30 is a good number to have. Any excess dice you have can be used for wound counters, or to keep track of Command Points (if you don't know what those are yet, that's fine). But, just as a frame of reference, the Inceptors you get in Dark Imperium/KNF, they roll 18 dice to hit. Additionally, try and have different colours of dice. It will speed up your games.

    Also, you'll need Terrain. If you don't have terrain on the board, the game vastly swings to playing a certain way, and all other units that don't play that way, are terrible... You don't want that. But we'll circle back to this.

    Additional Resources that you will want:
    - Battlescribe; Battlescribe is a free App for Mobile and PC (however, you can pay for it to remove ads). It's incredibly useful as it contains all the rules for all your units - including points costs. This greatly increases your ability to play the Matched Play version of 40K, as all's you need to do is plug the units you have, into the App, and you get given an army list complete with rules. However, do be aware that in the real world, when playing a real game, most people don't want to read rules from your phone - however, running it from a tablet, or printing it out, is almost always accepted. Battlescribe is for you, not for your opponents.

    - [Faction] Datacards; If you don't have a Codex, well, Battlescribe doesn't have rules for Stratagems. Your Faction's Datacards provide all the rules you need to run your chosen Factions' Stratagems, while also including all the cards you need to play Maelstrom Missions. Maelstrom is currently the most commonly played format of the game. But, if your playgroup - otherwise known as your 'metagame', or 'meta' - doesn't play Maelstrom, at least you've got all your Stratagems.

    - Open War cards; Open War is exceptionally useful for newer players as it gives you rules for Missions you can play, without having to buy the rulebook. Because of the random nature of the cards - like Maelstrom - you can have a variety of experiences depending on how the cards draw. The rules for Open War also allow for what happens when player has more Points or higher Power Rating than their opponent. Which can sometimes act as a balancing factor. However, those 'extra rules' can be very swingy depending on the units or army you have, so the better idea is to simply try and even out the points costs and ignore those rules.
    While Open War cards aren't required to play the game (GW offers the Core Rules for free), they will give you a decent experience of the game until you can get your hands on the rulebook and/or the most current edition of Chapter Approved.

    - Spin-down Dice; What? Okay, Magic: The Gathering (and others, but M:TG is the most obvious) produces spin-down d20s. These are d20s where the numbered sides are consecutively next to each other, which makes them incredibly useful as wound counters, Victory Point and Command Point trackers, additionally, they can't be accidentally picked up when you need more d6s to roll. They come in several different coloursm, just in case. GW themselves, sells 'Wound Trackers', but, they are in fact, just regular d10s.


    ...Points? ...Power Rating? What's the difference?
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    Both units of measurement are ways of keeping the game balanced. If one player's army is vastly superior to their opponent's, that's not a very fair game, is it? If you think that you're just going to 'put down everything you have on the table', well, that might work for smaller games. But once you get larger collections, what you have, and what your opponent has, may be very different collections and just...No.

    Power Rating; Power Rating is the easiest method to play the game. Your unit is always Rated the same, regardless of what wargear has. Whether your model has a Chainsword, or Thunder Hammer, still costs the same. This makes it incredibly easy to make army lists because you just put down your unit without regards to wargear. However, if everything costs the same, then the Good Stuff, costs exactly the same as the Bad Stuff, so why isn't everyone taking the Good Stuff all the time? Power Rating is incredibly abusable and all's it takes it a slight desire to start winning games and then the whole thing is ruined. Power Rating is also problematic because the way Games Workshop - allegedly - arrives at a unit's Power Rating makes no sense. Additionally, with the ebb and flow of the meta, with certain units becoming more conducive to winning games than others, no unit in the game's Power Rating has ever been changed.

    Points; Points are exclusively found in your Factions' Codecies (and Battlescribe). The way this works, is that everything has a points cost - even wargear. This means that Bad Stuff costs less points, whilst Good Stuff, costs more points. So, if you - or your opponents - want to start winning games, they're even further limited in what they can take. This is vastly more fair than using Power Rating to decide how to build your army. Additionally, Games Workshop releases points cost changes a few times a year, so, depending on your Codex's age, the points in the back may well be totally redundant, and you're going to want to pick up the most recent edition of Chapter Approved, which GW releases annually. Which is the downside. In order to keep it fair, points need to keep being re-balanced.


    So, what's a good start then?
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    Dark Imperium; The Astartes side is 773 Points, with a Power Rating of 41. The Death Guard are 636 Points with a PR of 34.
    Know No Fear; Astartes; 481 Points, PR 24. Death Guard; 456 Points, PR 25
    (Using the most recent Codex for both Factions, and Chapter Approved 2018)

    Know No Fear is a lot more fair. That being said, even in Dark Imperium, they are designed to be a start to an army, they are not an army, in and of themselves.

    If you don't want Astartes or Death Guard, you're going to want to look at Start Collecting! with the following exceptions:
    - Space Marines, Blood Angels and Primaris Space Wolves; The reason for this is easy. Know No Fear is cheaper, and better (and you can sell off the Death Guard half). The regular Space Wolves SC! box, is...Okay. If it doesn't have Primaris Marines and does have Thunderwolves, get that Space Wolf one.
    - Craftworlds; A pile of Elite and Heavy units is not how you start a Craftworlds army. That being said, if your idea of Craftworlds, involves a bunch of <Wraith Construct> units (e.g; Craftworld Iyanden), then you should absolutely buy it. If it's want you want, get it.
    - Orks; It's...Not great. While yes, it's a more legitimate start to an Ork army than Wraith-units to a Craftworlds army. It's just not a particularly good start.

    Because the Start Collecting! boxes are not fixed models, their points costs and Power Rating is indeterminate at best, because some units are dual kits, and some units have a vast array of wargear available to them. Ask the Thread for optimal builds for particular kits or boxes.


    Terrain - you mentioned it before. Talk about it, now.
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    Terrain...Is good. It slows down Melee armies from destroying you on Turn 1 or 2, and it increases your defense against Shooting attacks so you don't automatically lose on Turn 1 against a gunline. Wargaming terrain is an extremely fun hobby project where you can find hundreds of tutorials online to scratch-build almost anything you want. If you want to be even more creative than that, you can even theme your terrain to your army!

    A good rule of thumb is that anywhere between 33% and 50% of your table space should be covered in terrain.
    - 4x4' (low point games): You'll want 6-8 pieces of terrain with a combined total of a 1.3 - 2 foot square.
    - 6x4': You'll want 8-12 pieces of terrain, combining between 2'x4' and 2x6'.

    Not only that, but you'll also want (trust us) terrain that fully blocks Line of Sight. That is, terrain that is a solid mass that you can't see through. Examples might include Buildings or Statues. Small boards want at least one, and large boards want at least two. It's also a good idea to create terrain that partially blocks Line of Sight. That is, some of the terrain, you can't see through, but other parts, you can. A good example of this might be a shelled-out Ruin. Where the foundations of the Building are intact, and thus, built like a wall. While the upper levels of the Building have been hit by explosive attacks like an air raid, and thus the walls are not so intact and you can see through them.

    If your community has a gaming hub (such as a gaming store, or club), if those places are any good, they should have enough terrain for all of their gaming tables, and you don't really need to worry about this. If your local hub doesn't have enough terrain for its tables - or its terrain is just...Bad, and for example, doesn't block LoS - see if you can get involved in your community and organise a terrain building hobby day, or a challenge month or something, where terrain made is donated to the hub. More, better and diverse terrain in your hub benefits everybody, and your community manager should be on board for such an idea.

    Obviously, you can simply just buy Games Workshop terrain. But then you kind of only get to use what they can sell you. If that's what you want, well, it's less work than making your own terrain, that's for sure.

    While we're here, a 4x4' board is typically used for games below 1000 Points (or <50 PR), and a 6x4' board is anything bigger. The rulebook - if you have one - will tell you this.


    I've heard about Conquest. What's that about?
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    Well, first off, it's only available in select countries. If you happen to live in one of those countries...

    Conquest Magazine is a subscription service with a total of 80 issues (4 per month). Over the course of almost two years, you will build up solid collections for Space Marines, Death Guard, and you will get a whole load of terrain. Additionally, the Magazine itself, comes with Missions, paints and paint brushes and will literally help you build up your hobby at a reasonable pace without overwhelming you.

    Conquest is great for people with limited time and limited funds, but who still want to get into the hobby. The main issues with Conquest is that the models you get are fixed - so here's hoping you like Astartes and/or Death Guard - and that it takes almost two years to finish. So if you're looking to dive right into the hobby, and start playing lots of games within six months with a strong, personalised army...Then Conquest probably isn't for you.

    On a personal note, if Conquest had been a Thing when I was a University student, I absolutely would have bought into it.


    This is so expensive!
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    So is buying a gaming console, and a game every month. So is buying a bunch of power tools, buying wood and learning home carpentry. Warhammer is a hobby, same as anything else. If you want to spend a little bit of money, you can. There are game modes where GW attempts to tell you that you don't need to spend a lot of money (but in actual fact you do, if you want to be good at it). If you want to spend a lot of money on the hobby, you can do that, too.

    It's not called 'plastic crack' for nothing, and it doesn't make significant others mad for no reason.

    Most independent gaming stores will sell GW products at -20%, and of course there's 'Battlescribe & Datacards = A Codex'. But, additionally, you can search internet to see if people are selling their models at a decent price. There are very affordable - and mostly safe - ways to strip paint from models if you see a bad paint job on models you want. That being said, the reason people most often sell their models is 'cause they aren't any good on the table. While that isn't the case all the time, it is the case...A lot. If you see a good deal, just make sure that they're models you actually want.


    Wait...So you weren't kidding, there actually is 'Bad Stuff' in the game?
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    Unfortunately...Yes. The good news is, what's bad or good, depends on your meta. It's always useful to check out what other players are playing, and build to your meta.


    Build to my meta?
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    What works for someone on the other side of the world, or Hell, just 200kms north of you, might not work for you, because their local meta, is different to yours. The only person who truly knows what you need to buy for your army, is you, and you only learn that, by talking and engaging with your other local players. Of course, you can build to the meta, and run some or all of the best units in the game. But, if your meta is even slightly reasonable, there's a good chance that you don't need - or probably even want - to run the best units in the game because your opponents don't play their armies that way.
    ...But, of course, they might, too.


    So what am I here for?
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    Other perspectives and opinions. A lot of people play the game a certain way that they enjoy - it's a hobby, after all. That means that even if you talk to people in your meta, the advice you get given will only be relevant to their skill ceiling and knowledge base. If no-one in your meta plays Necrons, it's probably fair to say that not many people in your meta have experience playing with or against Necrons, and thus, their advice will be limited. There's a chance that you could ask everyone in your meta for advice, and get no helpful directions.

    It's also pretty fair that if you ask your opponents how to beat them, they're not going to tell you - why would they? It's also pretty fair that if you're asking your local store manager how to build an army, that your manager will make recommendations that end up with you spending the most money possible. It's a ****ty thing to do, but it is realistic.

    Mostly, the internet is for looking for competitive advice. If you are looking to win games, the internet will tell you how. Mostly, the internet will talk about the meta. That is, objectively, there are units in the game that are more suited to playing to the win conditions of the game, than other units. Internet discussion usually revolves around either taking those units, or taking units that counter those units, sometimes with a third 'meta-buster' build that is reasonably good against the unit and counter-unit.

    Now, if your meta, doesn't have people running those units, then talking about the meta, only goes so far. However, even taking 'sub-optimal' units, can still win games. A unit that's rated 8/10 is still pretty good, even if it's not 'the best' and will still cause problems given the chance.

    If you're having fun, playing what you want to play...Then talk about that.


    So can I take sub-optimal units that I like the look of, and still win games?
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    That's the elephant in the room...And the answer, at best, is only 'Maybe.'

    If having fun and doing hobby is what you care about, no-one can tell you how to have fun. No-one can tell you not to have fun - especially if you don't know them 'cause they're some dude on the internet and who cares what they think anyway? If you're having fun doing whatever it is you're doing, then you keep doing it. If, by some miracle, you're winning games while also taking like, units rated 5/10, 4/10 or worse, then who cares? You're playing with models you want, and you're winning games. Keep doing exactly what you're doing.

    If the units or models you like are Not Good, and potentially contributing to you losing every game - and that matters to you. Well, that sucks. The units you like, are bad, they don't perform, and you have to buy new models. What you have doesn't work, you should probably replace it. Or, at the very least start cutting up the models you do have and start giving them new wargear. Everyone understands that this feeling sucks, and it sucks even harder that you've potentially wasted a lot of money. That's why making sure you know what you want to buy, before you buy it, is so important. That being said, GW can just nerf what you like into the ground and then what do you do?

    At the end of the day, the important point you should know is that 'I want to have fun,' and 'I want to have fun...And win games,' are quite often different conversations.


    So, are some Factions are better overall than others?
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    As previously mentioned, some units are more or less suited to winning games than other units. The more of these units a Faction has, the better or worse they are at winning games. So, unfortunately, the answer is 'Yes.' While it's certainly possible to win games with any Faction in the game, your ability to win games is dependent on what your opponents are running (i.e; Go back to your meta, see what people are running and how they play). If your meta is full of people who are playing cutting edge, top of the meta lists, there's a pretty good chance that you wont be able to just put down any unit you like and still have a good game...And that sucks.

    But, for better or worse, Games Workshop has both officially and unofficially-by-game design stated that allied Factions are an intended part of the game, and that they're not going anywhere:
    1. This means that they don't have to write 'complete' Factions that can do everything, all the time, because you - a player/consumer - can plug the holes in your preferred Faction's tactics by adding another Faction that is good at it. This makes game design very forgiving on GW's end, especially for Imperium and Chaos factions.
    2. As a business, they sell you a more diverse range of models, so that certain kits don't just stay on the shelf forever and lose money by existing.

    If you don't want to include a second or even third Faction in your army (not least in part 'cause it requires spending more money), that's a choice you are fully allowed to make. But, if there's a choice in another Faction that does do what you need a unit to be able to do, and you are choosing not to take it, well...What can be said?


    I can't paint.
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    Like any skill worth having, you get better if you practice. 90% of a good paint job is just brush control - how much paint you put on your brush and where you put it. The other 10% is just colour theory (yeah, it's a thing). The most important tool this author has is a $5 Colour Wheel.

    Wraith has put together how you can go about Painting your army without losing your mind.

    WarhammerTV (YouTube) has several beginner guides on how to paint almost any model that GW sells. Also, as mentioned, Conquest Magazine is excellent if you want to learn how to paint Ultramarines and/or Death Guard and/or a bunch of GW's terrain features. Other than that, other YouTube channels also do painting tutorials, there are a whole bunch of blogs that also occasionally talk about how they painted their models. If you want to learn how to paint something specific, there's almost definitely a guide for it, somewhere.

    If you want to get better at painting, full stop:
    a) Make sure you have different sized paint brushes for different tasks - not every brush is useful, all the time.
    b) Develop your fine motor skills. It takes practice. You wont be good at it for a while. Don't worry about bad paint jobs. When you get better, just strip them.

    GW also has a Contrast Paint range, which is very helpful for getting people who don't want to paint, to paint. If painting for you is too hard, or too time-consuming, then make sure to look those up. Though, there are a number of stories where at the higher end of the painting scale, when you start getting good, Contrast Paints don't actually save you time, and are harder to use than normal paints (e.g; Once you learn drybrushing, it is both quicker and easier than Contrast).


    Here are a number of Guides put together by the GitP 40K Community...

    Helpful Army Building Guides
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    Adeptus Custodes Out of date
    Adeptus Mechanicus Out of date
    Astra Militarum by LeSwordfish
    Chaos Space Marines by LeSwordfish
    Craftworlds by Forum Explorer
    Dark Angels Out of date
    Death Guard by LeSwordfish
    Deathwatch Out of date
    Drukhari by Gauntlet
    Grey Knights
    Necrons by Requizen
    Space Marines Part I - Part II Very Out of Date and Bad.
    Thousand Sons by Wraith

    Index: Inquisition (White Dwarf, Nov '19)
    Index: Officio Assassinorum (White Dwarf, Mar '19)
    Index: Sisters of Silence (White Dwarf, Oct '19)

    30K/Heresy Guides
    30K Relics by Vaz
    Solar Auxilia by Vaz
    Taghmata Omnissiah Army List by Vaz
    Questoris Knights by Vaz

    30K/Legion Rules
    Legion Crusade Army List
    Legion Special Rules
    The Primarchs


    Previous conversations to search through...

    Previous Threads
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    * Warhammer 40K Tactics
    * II: Tactics for the Tactics God
    * III: Hats for the Hat Throne
    * IV: The Enemy of Your Enemy is Still Your Enemy.
    * V: Everyone Is On Fire. Some Moreso Than Others.
    * VI: Chaos Bringing Eternal Darkness? I brought my flashlight.
    * VII: Common Sense is not RAW.
    * VIII: You're Gonna have To Face It, You're Addicted To Maths
    * IX: "Mech Is King? I Never Voted For It!"
    * X: "Everybody expects the Inquisition!"
    * XI: "More Threads than your Tactical Squad has Room for!"
    * XII: "Now in Rapid Fire range!"
    * XIII: "Ironclads, Furiosos and Soul Grinders, oh my!"
    * XIV: "Pray for 6s!"
    * XV: "More People Should Be Punched In The Head."
    * XV: "Terminator? I hardly know 'er!"
    * XVII: "Tyranids Don't Have Friends."
    * XVIII: "Fortune Favours the Careless!"
    * XIX: Understand the Gravity of the Situation
    * XX: Barrage is the new Precision Shot
    * XXI: Preferred Enemy (Dice)
    * XXII: I C'Tan Has Cheese?
    * XXIII: I Do Not Like Green Tides and 'Hann
    * XXIV: ...And They Shall Know No Fluff.
    * XXV: Friends Are Better Than Wraithknights
    *
    XXVI: Frequently Asked, Frequently Ignored
    * XXVII: Tyranids Finally Found a Friend
    * XXVIII: Drasius Can't Have Nice Things
    * XXIX: Ro, Ro, Ro Your Boute
    * XXX: Imperium After Dark
    * XXXI: Haters Gonna Burn
    * XXXII: I Got 99 Guardsmen and Morale Killed One
    * XXXIII: Only in Nerf Does Duty End
    * XXXIV: Situation Normal, All FAQ'd Up
    * XXXV: 4 Pages of Rules, 46 Pages of Pointless Bickering
    * XXXVI: If it Ain't Broke, Nerf It
    * XXXVII: Highlighting the Contrasts
    * XXXVIII: toy soldiers r srs bsns


    Here's a bunch of Battle Reports for you to read. Plenty of army lists in there.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXIX: Miracle on 39th Thread

    Previously in the Eternal Darkness:

    • Still reeling from SoCal 2019 - and most other ITC tournaments - Space Marines are asserting their incomplete dominance, with T'au and Craftworlds. Despite the obvious biases and inherent flaws to the ITC format - which directly enable Castles/Gunlines and significantly favour 'moderate'-sized armies due to turn timers - people are still unable to grasp why or how Space Marines (and Craftworlds and T'au) are so dominant...In the ITC, a format which has removed all Space Marines' counters.
    • Slow-playing: Are you bad, or a cheater? ...There's no third option. Can you play an army with 120+ models in it and still get through your games in less than 2.5 hours? (Spoiler alert; Yes)
    • 2000 Points; Is it a balanced game, or a game that takes too long?
    • Well of course it takes so long! Tournaments remove a players' ability to concede!
    • Also, almost all of Codex: Adepta Sororitas is now known. Reviews range from "This Codex is balanced and there should be more like it." to "This Codex runs halfway between Space Marines and Astra Militarum, and is worse than both." and "This Codex isn't even close to being as good as the good Factions', so it sucks."

    ...We now return you to the Darkness.
    Steam Name: Cheesegear
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anuan View Post
    Cheesegear; Lovable Thesaurus ItP.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lycan 01 View Post
    Cheesegear, have I told you yet that you're awesome?
    Quote Originally Posted by MeatShield#236 View Post
    ALL HAIL LORD CHEESEGEAR! Cheese for the cheesegear!
    Quote Originally Posted by Shas'aia Toriia View Post
    Cheesegear is awesome

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXIX: Miracle on 39th Thread



    Apparently the Harlie entry is a typo and should be 13 --> 11
    Last edited by Drasius; 2019-11-26 at 05:42 PM.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXIX: Miracle on 39th Thread

    Cheaper Tech Priests. Yay?
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXIX: Miracle on 39th Thread

    Yep. They release Sisters and immediately buff their hard counter.
    "Courage is the complement of fear. A fearless man cannot be courageous. He is also a fool." -- Robert Heinlein


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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXIX: Miracle on 39th Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Renegade Paladin View Post
    Yep. They release Sisters and immediately buff their hard counter.
    Nurgle? Anything T5? Things with more range than 24"?
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXIX: Miracle on 39th Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackhawk748 View Post
    Nurgle? Anything T5? Things with more range than 24"?
    Things with deep strike and S3 AP-2 rapid fire shooting.
    "Courage is the complement of fear. A fearless man cannot be courageous. He is also a fool." -- Robert Heinlein


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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXIX: Miracle on 39th Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Renegade Paladin View Post
    Things with deep strike and S3 AP-2 rapid fire shooting.
    AP -1. Its fairly easy to get 4++ so any extra AP is wasted. Also, the Deep Strike isn't necessary, Sisters aren't terribly mobile, or have the greatest range. The new Codex gave several boost, but that particular problem is still very much present.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXIX: Miracle on 39th Thread

    They also save on a 2+ most of the time. Sure, Sisters can have a field day with their psychic phase, but their melee is a joke so they can be rolled over that way (ah no, sorry Bloody Rose will make Kaldor Draigo not want to charge you, my bad, how could I forget).

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXIX: Miracle on 39th Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Drasius View Post


    Apparently the Harlie entry is a typo and should be 13 --> 11
    Whoo Reavers, Banshees, and Harlequins going down in points.

    Though I wish Scorpions would get some love. They really are useless right now, and that makes me sad.

    Quote Originally Posted by LansXero View Post
    They also save on a 2+ most of the time. Sure, Sisters can have a field day with their psychic phase, but their melee is a joke so they can be rolled over that way (ah no, sorry Bloody Rose will make Kaldor Draigo not want to charge you, my bad, how could I forget).
    I'm curious how their melee will be. I mean, Pertinent Engines are under 50 points and have 15 attacks at S6 that reroll to hit, IIRC. They do die really easy, but again, under 50 points. It'd be pretty easy to slot three of them in to pretty much any army to serve as counter melee if nothing else.

    Sisters also got an advance and charge strat, but I'm not sure who qualifies for it.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXIX: Miracle on 39th Thread

    Can you take Pengines in groups? If not, they're junk. If you're limited to 3 and they die fast, what's the point?

    Glad the manipulus is going down in points, should have never been 90pts.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXIX: Miracle on 39th Thread

    Penitent engines and the new alt version both come in groups of 1-3. The new ones trade zelot for 3+ ws/bs, but their FNP drops from 5+ to 6+, from what I have heard. The new ones get assault heavy bolters or pistol heavy flamers.

    The advance and charge strat is for Sisters; it excludes the pen engines and arco flagelents. However, the new alt-engines are giant repentia, so they can use it.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXIX: Miracle on 39th Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalisj View Post
    Can you take Pengines in groups? If not, they're junk. If you're limited to 3 and they die fast, what's the point?
    Filling elite slots for cheap is good enough combined with being a distraction carnifii. 9 of them are going to be terrifying.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXIX: Miracle on 39th Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalisj View Post
    Can you take Pengines in groups? If not, they're junk. If you're limited to 3 and they die fast, what's the point?

    Glad the manipulus is going down in points, should have never been 90pts.
    Yes, and Im glad that they're still solid. In Index was nice to them. Im not sure about the new version, but they sound more shooty instead of smashy.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXIX: Miracle on 39th Thread

    Calling P-Engines 'Distraction Carnifii' is an overstatement. At best they're fighty Sentinels without the advance deployment. At T5 it can be taken down by Heavy Bolter fire without much issue (its not like you need them to wound sisters hah), at 5 wounds its reasonably tanky for the points, but it wont last much either way; no invulnerable means that with AP being everywhere it'll end up relying on 5s - 6s and thus be dissassembled before its ever much of a concern.

    Everyone is operating in a vacuum trying to justify a mediocre army as a good thing, and going 'well of course its not the best! the best is busted!' as if that makes the units in the faction suddenly work better. P-Engines dont work as melee counterpunch because they're trivial to shoot off the table, and they're trivial to hammer down as well due to no invulnerable and T: why am I a vehicle?. They dont fly and, while moving 9" while advancing and charging might seem cool in theory, having it reach more than screens is very unlikely, as it cant bypass terrain or clear chaff well enough. Sisters having a mostly 24" range (but muh strat! as if you'll seriously shoot multi-meltas as covering grots) means that after they shoot 15" away from the front line, they'll probably have little to charge at, and what they'll want to charge will be behind a wall of disposable wounds. The flail option is cool to clear out infantry, but 'clearing out infantry' is what every other unit in the army does pretty well already. Heck, it might be the only thing the faction does well, except maybe shutting down the psychic phase.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXIX: Miracle on 39th Thread

    Sorry, I'm a bit behind, is the Sister's Codex out in full now, or are we still dealing with piecemeal? If it's out, what's the overall verdict?

    Also, C'tan point drop is neat, but they still have plenty of issues.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXIX: Miracle on 39th Thread

    It's out, but ONLY IF you bought the limited edition boxed set within the 93 seconds that it was available online. The rest of us mere peasants will have to wait until January.

    The verdict is that it's.... okay. Strictly B+ with a few interesting and potentially useful abilities, stacked on top of what is basically T3 Space Marines, but without all the stratagems, variety, heavy weapons and other unique stuff that makes Space Marines A+.

    Casual Players will play casual games and probably really enjoy them, with some decent Troops and some interesting tricks to throw around. Competitive Players will take one look, sneer derisively, and continue to roll faces with Iron Hands who just do everything better than everyone else.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXIX: Miracle on 39th Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Requizen View Post
    If it's out, what's the overall verdict?
    The entire thing has been reviewed and/or leaked.
    However, nobody actually has the Codex on hand, because they sold out in three minutes (in AU). Because GW can do anything they want, price it however they want, and whales will still buy it, even while complaining how expensive it was and how shady the business practice was.

    Casually?
    B. Maybe a B+. You will have fun with your friends. More Codecies should be like it. Make a gimmick that's easy to explain, easy to execute, and go. Give 'em Power Armour so they don't die immediately to a stiff breeze. Give 'em Boltguns 'cause then at least you wont be S3. 'Marines with T3'. But also shore up that T3 with a 4+ Invulnerable save on anything you want, and you're looking at a solid little army that will let you run roughshod over newbies and bads who can't get their head around Miracle Dice.

    Competitively?
    - It's not Space Marines, it's not Guard, it's a hybrid that's not as good as either. A huge kick in the junk to Sororitas is that Scions' points drop has been leaked and holy **** if Scions didn't just become one of the best Troops in the Imperium Faction.
    - It's not Space Marines, so it sucks.
    - Two years in development? If that's even remotely true, why isn't it...Better? You sharted out six Space Marine Supplements in three months. And most of them are competitive. With two (Iron Hands and White Scars) effectively breaking the game.
    - If you've been on the hype train for two years, you might even hate the book. But if you really like Ministorum, aren't you just happy for a new book, and new models? You will get fed trash, and you will like it...
    - Most of the Codex sucks (see; Inferior Space Marines, and Inferior Guardsmen)
    - Looks like a mono-build, centered around Miracle Dice. Which is an unreliable mechanic. Thus, Ministorum probably wont be consistent. An unreliable army is a bad army.
    - Mono-Faction abilities aren't good.
    - Miracle Dice act like a Mono-Faction ability (i.e; The more Sororitas units you have, the better it is), but aren't. So using them as Allies in another army isn't even good, because you wont have enough Sororitas units to make Miracle Dice a viable mechanic.
    - Faithful 17 is no longer a thing - at least, it's not a thing that's valuable, since how Sororitas Deny the Witch was changed, and what makes it good, is a mono-Faciton ability.
    - In case you missed it; Running them as Primary Faction isn't good, running them as an Allied Faction isn't good. Wait...Uhh...

    So, yeah.
    It's hard to justify running 9 Point Sororitas models when 7 Point Scions exist.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXIX: Miracle on 39th Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    The entire thing has been reviewed and/or leaked.
    However, nobody actually has the Codex on hand, because they sold out in three minutes (in AU). Because GW can do anything they want, price it however they want, and whales will still buy it, even while complaining how expensive it was and how shady the business practice was.
    I wonder if its on VK already. But I wouldnt put it past this weekend to be up to download and print. GW is really showing its age, like making a Codex limited will matter.

    Casually?
    B. Maybe a B+. You will have fun with your friends. More Codecies should be like it. Make a gimmick that's easy to explain, easy to execute, and go. Give 'em Power Armour so they don't die immediately to a stiff breeze. Give 'em Boltguns 'cause then at least you wont be S3. 'Marines with T3'. But also shore up that T3 with a 4+ Invulnerable save on anything you want, and you're looking at a solid little army that will let you run roughshod over newbies and bads who can't get their head around Miracle Dice.
    Since when is a 12" bubble (with relic and WT investment) tied to a non-flying model "on anything you want"? These arent Custodes, the inv. isnt free nor does it come stock with the models. While castles are the name of the game, T3 castles with 3 models that can ignore LoS and not many things that can shoot over 24" are below mediocre. Remember when people were clamoring that Beta! Sisters were fine because of Storm Bolters, that same 4++ and how they shat on the psychic phase? And how I said they were unplayable trash that nobody would touch? Months later, guess what, nobody touched them, not even for their supposed 'meta busting' niche of stopping 1k sons and Daemons.

    Competitively?
    - It's not Space Marines, it's not Guard, it's a hybrid that's not as good as either. A huge kick in the junk to Sororitas is that Scions' points drop has been leaked and holy **** if Scions didn't just become one of the best Troops in the Imperium Faction.
    - It's not Space Marines, so it sucks.
    - Two years in development? If that's even remotely true, why isn't it...Better? You sharted out six Space Marine Supplements in three months. And most of them are competitive. With two (Iron Hands and White Scars) effectively breaking the game.
    - If you've been on the hype train for two years, you might even hate the book. But if you really like Ministorum, aren't you just happy for a new book, and new models? You will get fed trash, and you will like it...
    - Most of the Codex sucks (see; Inferior Space Marines, and Inferior Guardsmen)
    - Looks like a mono-build, centered around Miracle Dice. Which is an unreliable mechanic. Thus, Ministorum probably wont be consistent. An unreliable army is a bad army.
    - Mono-Faction abilities aren't good.
    - Miracle Dice act like a Mono-Faction ability (i.e; The more Sororitas units you have, the better it is), but aren't. So using them as Allies in another army isn't even good, because you wont have enough Sororitas units to make Miracle Dice a viable mechanic.
    - Faithful 17 is no longer a thing - at least, it's not a thing that's valuable, since how Sororitas Deny the Witch was changed, and what makes it good, is a mono-Faciton ability.
    - In case you missed it; Running them as Primary Faction isn't good, running them as an Allied Faction isn't good. Wait...Uhh...
    Not as good as either and way more expensive in dollarydoos. Scions, while also monetarily expensive, are easier to convert from Guardsmen (and if you feel fancy, the new Necromunda warband, although that may end up even more expensive, still rad looking).
    It doesnt suck just because its not current Space Marines levels of broken. It sucks because it doesnt do anything well, except killing light infantry which is about as relevant as 'looking pretty when pro-painted' in game terms.
    The new units feel pretty redundant. I mean, giving P-engines chaff-clearing flails in the same variant that has a lower FNP? How's that work? Are they supposed to crash into Boyz / 'gaunts and clear them out? If so, why is their ability to survive the following barrage lower instead of higher?. And well, then there are power swords on S3 models for the new Seraphim variant, and it doesnt take 2 years to realize thats stupid. Oh, they re-roll wounds? oh then thats fine. And lets not forget 'Bloody Rose makes melee factions not want to charge you', right? What a joke. Two years to copy fate dice.

    The mono build is focused around a 4++ castle, without which the entire army falls like a castle made of cards. Does that sound like a B+ faction for you? Is a GK Supreme Command enough to make them a B+ faction then?

    So, yeah.
    It's hard to justify running 9 Point Sororitas models when 7 Point Scions exist.
    If you're a new player coming into the game, you cant buy the army anyways, but even when you become able you'd ask yourself "what are these girls good at, other than being girls" and fall short of a proper answer that isnt just Guard- or Space Marines- or Admech-. Isnt that the -4 Str meme? Where the 'girl' version is worse at everything than the male version? Wasnt this the exact opposite of what they were trying to achieve?

    If you're an older player, even a fluffbunny like you Cheese, its obvious the faction is just a flash-in-the-pan 'cool on paper' gimmick. How many Azrael castles do you see floating around to consider a 4++ bubble worth anything? Even Custodes, the poster boys of unfair invulnerables and high toughness, are nothing without their pushed FW toys and the mobility afforded by Shield Captains on bikes. Would you run foot Custodes? If not, why are you giving a B+ to models with the same inv, the same penchant for storm bolters everywhere, but half the toughness? Hell, Custodes dont even need to bunch up, and still wouldnt work.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXIX: Miracle on 39th Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by LansXero View Post
    Since when is a 12" bubble (with relic and WT investment) tied to a non-flying model "on anything you want"?
    Well, obviously, you can put anything you want, inside the bubble.

    The mono build is focused around a 4++ castle, without which the entire army falls like a castle made of cards. Does that sound like a B+ faction for you?
    In the casual meta? Yes.

    Where the 'girl' version is worse at everything than the male version? Wasnt this the exact opposite of what they were trying to achieve?
    You get it.

    If you're an older player, even a fluffbunny like you Cheese, its obvious the faction is just a flash-in-the-pan 'cool on paper' gimmick.
    It sure is. Hence my 'Casuals will like it, but here's a laundry list of why the Codex is actually terrible.'

    How many Azrael castles do you see floating around to consider a 4++ bubble worth anything?
    Anyone who plays Dark Angels, runs that. Every time. Combined with -1 to hit. Same as Custodes.

    Would you run foot Custodes?
    Not as a mono-Faction. But the reason Custodes Detachments works is 'cause of Vexillas. Everyone loves -1 to hit.

    Hell, Custodes dont even need to bunch up...
    Yes they do. You gotta cluster around the Vexilla(e) for at least a turn.
    What makes Custodes viable, is that it's a mobile castle, 'cause Custodes don't have Heavy weapons, so it's bizarre. But then Iron Hands do everything that Custodes do/did, except better.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXIX: Miracle on 39th Thread

    Orks were doing the KFF bubble and theirs was even smaller. The reason this works at all is because the comparisons you're making aren't cheap. Azrael Is a pricey dude while the Cannoness is like... 60points? And jf you're shooting her, the other pair of them are somewhere else.

    Is a trio of 20 bricks of Sisters worth it? I don't know, but it's not terrible
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXIX: Miracle on 39th Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackhawk748 View Post
    Orks were doing the KFF bubble and theirs was even smaller. The reason this works at all is because the comparisons you're making aren't cheap. Azrael Is a pricey dude while the Cannoness is like... 60points? And jf you're shooting her, the other pair of them are somewhere else.

    Is a trio of 20 bricks of Sisters worth it? I don't know, but it's not terrible
    Orks were doing that as a delivery system for 'everything is tied up with Boyz now' until the Codex came out and Mek Gunz backed by grotz became the new standard. Because their shooting was as toothless as Sisters is, except they actually had melee power, which Sisters do not.

    Also, Azrael brings actual counter-assault power, bonus CPs, re-roll all misses, not just 1s and a relic Plasma gun. The Aura Cannonness doesnt do as much; but more importantly there is a lot more firepower in that castle than on a Sister's equivalent. Not that the faction is super competitive, and yet its better than Sisters imho.

    Well, obviously, you can put anything you want, inside the bubble.
    Can you? You want Exorcists in there so they dont die T1, and their footprint isnt small. Between terrain, range and LoS, how much of your castle is actually relevant? Exposing your Aura model is risky, so the actual effective area isnt all that great. If you are going against mobile troops like DE? Kiss table control goodbye. And a single Vindicare destroys your mono-build.

    Yes they do. You gotta cluster around the Vexilla(e) for at least a turn.
    What makes Custodes viable, is that it's a mobile castle, 'cause Custodes don't have Heavy weapons, so it's bizarre. But then Iron Hands do everything that Custodes do/did, except bett
    er.

    You deploy them around, but if you get a chance to charge you dont suddenly lose your inv. like Sisters do. And Cannonesses dont float around running 16" to tie up gunlines (would it have killed them to make a Cannoness on jump pack?) so the only answer Sisters has to incoming firepower is taking it in the chin and pushing through. With their T3 bodies.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXIX: Miracle on 39th Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    The better option, is to simply straight up build 2 or 3 different lists. However, transport becomes a nightmare.
    I know that WarmaHordes does this, and one look at the lists that get thrown around in these threads lets even a non-player like me realize you're probably right about transport.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXIX: Miracle on 39th Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by LansXero View Post
    Calling P-Engines 'Distraction Carnifii' is an overstatement. At best they're fighty Sentinels without the advance deployment. At T5 it can be taken down by Heavy Bolter fire without much issue (its not like you need them to wound sisters hah), at 5 wounds its reasonably tanky for the points, but it wont last much either way; no invulnerable means that with AP being everywhere it'll end up relying on 5s - 6s and thus be dissassembled before its ever much of a concern.

    Everyone is operating in a vacuum trying to justify a mediocre army as a good thing, and going 'well of course its not the best! the best is busted!' as if that makes the units in the faction suddenly work better. P-Engines dont work as melee counterpunch because they're trivial to shoot off the table, and they're trivial to hammer down as well due to no invulnerable and T: why am I a vehicle?. They dont fly and, while moving 9" while advancing and charging might seem cool in theory, having it reach more than screens is very unlikely, as it cant bypass terrain or clear chaff well enough. Sisters having a mostly 24" range (but muh strat! as if you'll seriously shoot multi-meltas as covering grots) means that after they shoot 15" away from the front line, they'll probably have little to charge at, and what they'll want to charge will be behind a wall of disposable wounds. The flail option is cool to clear out infantry, but 'clearing out infantry' is what every other unit in the army does pretty well already. Heck, it might be the only thing the faction does well, except maybe shutting down the psychic phase.
    It's got it's 5+ to Ignore Damage and that alone makes it leagues more durable then a Sentinel. And honestly calling it a fighty Sentinel is pretty insulting, Sentinel's don't do jack all. If the P-Engines get into melee, they've got a decent chance of actually killing whatever they've hit from sheer weight of attacks, unless that thing is a titanic unit of some sort. As for dying to Heavy Bolter shots, well it'll take approximately 24 Heavy Bolter shots to do so. To kill one. Assault Cannons would do better, of course, but then they aren't shooting at the T3 Sisters. But for the record, it'd take about 18 Assault Cannon shots.

    I don't consider that a trivial amount of fire power. If you add in Lascannons and the like, it becomes easy, but then your anti-tank stuff isn't shooting at the Exorcists. Or for that matter, at any of the infantry sister units, like say, your Retributors with multi-meltas.

    While we're talking about Sister durability, someone (Goonhammer I think) calculated out that it would take 109 Heavy Bolter shots to kill the Triumph of Saint Katherine. Or Bolt Rifle shots, which are the same thing against her anyways.

    And the thing is, Sisters are so cheap, I can almost certainly take a double battalion of Sisters, 6 P-Engines, 3 Exorcists, the Triumph, Celestine, and still have enough points to make the whole thing a Brigade. And they are really durable for their points. Having a 4++ on nearly everything is insane. AP basically doesn't matter to them, and if they really want, they can keep their 3+ save by going Valorous Heart and taking an Imagfier. I'm really looking forward to getting their Codex (or a copy of it at least) and playing around with what lists I can build.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXIX: Miracle on 39th Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    It's got it's 5+ to Ignore Damage and that alone makes it leagues more durable then a Sentinel. And honestly calling it a fighty Sentinel is pretty insulting, Sentinel's don't do jack all. If the P-Engines get into melee, they've got a decent chance of actually killing whatever they've hit from sheer weight of attacks
    So.. like 5 each? Ok, they're not fighty sentinels, they're expensive Wraithblades. Tell me how meta Wraithblades are, and they even have way better support than Sisters can give the P-engines. Unless you mean the flail version which cant wound vehicles and only has a 6+++

    As for dying to Heavy Bolter shots, well it'll take approximately 24 Heavy Bolter shots to do so. To kill one. Assault Cannons would do better, of course, but then they aren't shooting at the T3 Sisters. But for the record, it'd take about 18 Assault Cannon shots.

    I don't consider that a trivial amount of fire power. If you add in Lascannons and the like, it becomes easy, but then your anti-tank stuff isn't shooting at the Exorcists. Or for that matter, at any of the infantry sister units, like say, your Retributors with multi-meltas.
    Why waste multi-damage high S High AP shots on T3 models with a 4++? They'll take the shots from the mandatory sponson / turret guns or from the CP Intercessors and die to probability of rolling 1s. Exorcists are a fine target, but would probably be out of LoS. And also, no-fly on melee models is still junk.

    While we're talking about Sister durability, someone (Goonhammer I think) calculated out that it would take 109 Heavy Bolter shots to kill the Triumph of Saint Katherine. Or Bolt Rifle shots, which are the same thing against her anyways.
    It degrades, so its not like not doing in a single round doesnt take a toll. But then, 109 shots are what, Rapid fire from 50 odd models, 26 if its storm bolters? Like... sure, Ill trade my troop shooting for your center piece model any day, whats the issue there?

    And the thing is, Sisters are so cheap, I can almost certainly take a double battalion of Sisters, 6 P-Engines, 3 Exorcists, the Triumph, Celestine, and still have enough points to make the whole thing a Brigade
    .

    That all fit in your 4++ while in range and LoS of the enemy, does it now?

    And they are really durable for their points. Having a 4++ on nearly everything is insane. AP basically doesn't matter to them, and if they really want, they can keep their 3+ save by going Valorous Heart and taking an Imagfier. I'm really looking forward to getting their Codex (or a copy of it at least) and playing around with what lists I can build.
    No it isnt nearly everything and no it isnt insane. Harlequins actually do have 4++ all the time, plus -1 to be wound around an HQ model, plus -to be hit, and you dont hear about them being 'insanely durable'. Hell, beta-codex sisters also did, still unplayed thus far. I get that you're excited, thats fine, I've played plenty of junk lists for kicks. But there is that and there is considering the codex good design.

    At least you aren't thinking expensive banshees without ignores-overwatch are somehow viable in melee.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXIX: Miracle on 39th Thread

    They get 3 attacks per attack with the flails, so it is actually 15 attacks each.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXIX: Miracle on 39th Thread

    I really wish there was a viable online version of 40k, just so we could put theories to the test without all the expenses of traveling. Alas, its not to be, so time will tell :)

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXIX: Miracle on 39th Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by LansXero View Post
    So.. like 5 each? Ok, they're not fighty sentinels, they're expensive Wraithblades. Tell me how meta Wraithblades are, and they even have way better support than Sisters can give the P-engines. Unless you mean the flail version which cant wound vehicles and only has a 6+++



    Why waste multi-damage high S High AP shots on T3 models with a 4++? They'll take the shots from the mandatory sponson / turret guns or from the CP Intercessors and die to probability of rolling 1s. Exorcists are a fine target, but would probably be out of LoS. And also, no-fly on melee models is still junk.



    It degrades, so its not like not doing in a single round doesnt take a toll. But then, 109 shots are what, Rapid fire from 50 odd models, 26 if its storm bolters? Like... sure, Ill trade my troop shooting for your center piece model any day, whats the issue there?

    .

    That all fit in your 4++ while in range and LoS of the enemy, does it now?



    No it isnt nearly everything and no it isnt insane. Harlequins actually do have 4++ all the time, plus -1 to be wound around an HQ model, plus -to be hit, and you dont hear about them being 'insanely durable'. Hell, beta-codex sisters also did, still unplayed thus far. I get that you're excited, thats fine, I've played plenty of junk lists for kicks. But there is that and there is considering the codex good design.

    At least you aren't thinking expensive banshees without ignores-overwatch are somehow viable in melee.
    No, 15 Attacks each at S6 AP-2. The Flail Version doesn't effect their FnP, that's switching to the Heavy Bolter version that does that. The Heavy Bolter Version also gets the Advance and Charge strat, has an explode that only hurts enemy units in melee, and has a 3+ to hit. I'm not sure if the Mortitor has Shield of Faith or not, but the P-Engine is a definite no. 15 Attacks at S6 can hurt vehicles, but it's not ideal, no. That's what the Exorcists and Retributors are for.

    Sorry, my paragraph got a little cluttered there. I meant, any Heavy Bolters/Assault Cannons shooting at P-Engines aren't shooting at your Retributors and any Lascannons/Ect shooting at P-Engines aren't shooting at your Exorcists. Also Exorcists don't ignore LoS or moving and shooting penalties. Retributors can do that though, and hide behind walls. Turn 1 at least.


    It's a 185 point model. It's not a centerpiece unit, it's just yet another thing. Go ahead, shoot your entire army at it, I don't care if it dies, I've got more stuff. Also Storm Bolters would be a much higher number, that 109 is assuming it's on the 4++. Not it's 3+, or more realistically speaking, a 2+, because it's going to be ridiculously easy to get a cover save for it, considering just any piece of its base needs to touch terrain. It might be hard to hide it, depending on the model which I assume will be gigantic, but the bigger it is, the easier it is to give it cover.

    I'm really not sure how actually competitive it is. Generating 2 Miracle Dice a round and giving a +1 to them when they are used is pretty useful, as is the extra Act of Faith. The melee stuff? Well, maybe you can make an actual melee Sisters army, and then it'll be really useful. Or maybe only those 3 relics are any good, but are they worth the point cost would be the question. It's more of an afternote though, that even this kinda silly parade is actually a lot harder to kill then people thought at first glance.

    That depends on what I'm fighting, now doesn't it? I'd say mission, but we are talking hypothetical competitive games, and that means ITC, where castelling is super viable. But since you only need a single model from each unit with 6 inches of the buff givers, it's not too hard to do with your infantry units.

    The difference, and the reason that doesn't work for Harlequins, is that Harlequins are A) Pretty Expensive, so losing even a single model hurts, B) Only have a 4++, so cover doesn't help and they don't get a 3+ against small arms fire, C) Are basically Melee only, with all the many problems that creates.

    And they are really expensive. The base Harlequin (A S3 model with no AP) is useless. And is 13 points to be useless. Making them useful in melee and they are now 20 points a model. Making them useful for shooting, and they are now 22 points a model. Oh but to be useful for shooting, they also need a transport, so that's another 90 points. You can make them useful for both at a whopping 29 points per model. And no matter what, they will only be effective at short range so you'll need to get close to your opponent before they can do anything.

    Then you get into the complications with the characters. If you are running infantry Harlequins? Then you'll have to double move a unit for it to be in threat range. Oh, look it's now out of the character buffs. If it's a Jetbike unit, well it can't just sit back and shoot, so it'll likely move up if you want it hurting something important. (Which is 40-45 points a model with no melee options for the record. You know, almost the entire cost of a P-Engine). And now it's out of range of buffs as well. Or everything is in a transport, and you can't even use the buff until the transport dies.

    In comparison the base Sister is 9 points. And is more durable and more useful, because a bolter is not useless. Even if they are just plinking away at power armor, you'll still get value out of it from weight of fire if nothing else. And because they are useful at range, they can actually hold an objective in cover, and still do something. And because they have a 3+, they actually have some durability against small arms fire. They move at the same speed as their buffs, so they can have a 4++, reroll 1's, ect, and still be just as effective as they always are.

    The big difference between their Beta Version and them now, is that their Acts of Faith are actually useful. Before, they may have been pretty durable, but it was a pain to actually do damage. Being able to guarantee a hit/wound when you need it is critical, as well as stuff as; everything getting cheaper, Exorcists becoming reliable, Retributors being able to move and shoot (and thus Multi-Meltas becoming useful), being able to shoot Inferno Pistols out of deep strike. Now, admittedly, tanks are still their big weakness. They only have so much anti-tank to get. But on the other hand, pure Sisters are almost a direct counter to Psyker heavy hordes, with added nastiness for demons.

    It does mean their absolute bane is Triple Repulsors on a Skyshield backed up by Thunderfire cannons, which is all kinds of unfortunate in the current competitive meta. But nothing else seems to really be able to handle that either, so I don't feel bad about it.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXIX: Miracle on 39th Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by LansXero View Post
    so the only answer Sisters has to incoming firepower is taking it in the chin and pushing through. With their T3 bodies.
    I think another issue you don't seem to be aware of, is that as a filthy superior Craftworlds' player just trying their best with an underwhelming Codex, your Codex is based around the obvious trash that is S6. T3 is a joke. Plz buff Craftworlds to S7. Shuriken Cannons should be at least S8, though, and be AP-3 all the time. But also still cost the same points.
    Me, being a lame Space Marine player, my Codex is based around S5. T3 doesn't seem that bad to me.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXIX: Miracle on 39th Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    Shuriken Cannons should be at least S8, though, and be AP-3 all the time. But also still cost the same points.
    Not even asking for a points drop? Gee, you sure like playing on hard mode, dontcha?

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