Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXIX: Miracle on 39th Thread

[Don Qui Ho Tep]

I certainly agree that having more options is always better (as long as they're interesting choices). One thing I tend to do when talking and typing is work through a problem in real time, and often I'll end up at a different place then I started - that's what I did there. It would be interesting if 40k went towards AoS in terms of combining large monsters with a host of battleline.

I've been thinking lately that the old force organization chart provided some interesting creative restraints on building an army list. Recognizing that now that all units are much cheaper than they used to be (although that's a solvable problem), it would be hard to get to 2000 points with those restrictions in place. Have people workshopped a way of decoupling command points from the detachment system? Maybe as a fraction of total power level of the army in place? I don't know if that would encourage a mixed play style, or just two extremes - lots of cheap units or few expensive units. Also (thinking out loud here), I think I'm just projecting the kinds of armies I would like to build. I don't know if there's an elegant solution there.

And when it comes to talking about restrictions or gentlemen's agreements ("let's each bring only one Lord of War"), then you're making choices for other people about what they can't bring to the table. And although Tau!Friend and I are able to choose whether to play a casual or competitive game, because we are friends in real life, I'd also like to continue playing in my local leagues, which are very competitive. So rather than ask them to restrict their options, I just have to get better at it.

It's healthy to complain every now and then, and constructive to think of ways to improve a game that you love - but it's tricky when it buts against the needs of a community, isn't it? It's why people who don't like 8th can't easily find games of 7th (is that something people are trying to do? I've never played 7th).

So, primarchs for every faction: why not? What could go wrong?

[LansXero]

My issue would be that current Primarchs aren't particularly well balanced. They had their time to shine but are mostly centerpiece models, although they are rightly terrifying. But take new!Ghazkull for example: the very professional not lazy at all design team made him not work with his own abilities and the ton of infantry boosts from his codex, so he is now niche at beast and sidelined at worse, since they also included a strat to make a regular boss a better beatstick for a much lower cost.

[Don Qui Ho Tep]

Yeah, Ghazkull is just odd. In this article (which they could have just made on a spreadsheet, for all I know), Ghazkull shows that he's not really even that effective - but by only taking 4 damage a round, he can last a little longer than other fire-magnet centerpieces. So longevity may be a selling point, but everything that people have already brought up - not being able to be transported, not being able to benefit from his own abilities, etc - make it seem like he might be more trouble than he's worth.

[Renegade Paladin]

I guarantee that article is from them sitting down with the models and some dice and running the exercise exactly once. You can tell it's not an average of any sort, because of his Overwatch going wide so many times; he gets enough shots that statistically he's likely to get a couple of hits. Also he did improbably well against the Redemptor.

[Cheesegear]

I guarantee that article is from them sitting down with the models and some dice and running the exercise exactly once.

Regardless, it's a false exercise. Because - shock - 1v1s isn't real playtesting.

Wake me up when Ghazgkull faces a Knight after having taken 8 wounds in the preceeding two Shooting phases.

[Wraith]

There's a strong rumour going around that GW have leaked the title of the next Psychic Awakening book. Well, I say "next", in that there's still at least two more that have been announced before it and haven't been released yet... Whatever.

Psychic Awakening: Pariah. Odds seem pretty likely that it's going to be Necrons, which leaves their potential enemies to be Harlequins, Deathwatch and/or Sisters of Battle, assuming that they don't pull a new additional to Codex: Inquisition out of their butts as a fake-out.

It would hopefully be Necrons vs. Sisters or Deathwatch, I think - if it were Necrons vs Harlequins, that just leaves Deathwatch vs Sisters as the last book, which would be weird unless they reuse another faction that's already had a turn. I guess there's enough factions of Daemons and Chaos Marines that they could be split down, since Thousand Sons got a solo outing in Ritual of the Damned and Death Guard are supposed to be in War of the Spider, but that seems unnecessarily complicated.

[Cheesegear]

Psychic Awakening: Pariah. Odds seem pretty likely that it's going to be Necrons, which leaves their potential enemies to be Harlequins, Deathwatch and/or Sisters of Battle, assuming that they don't pull a new additional to Codex: Inquisition out of their butts as a fake-out.

Weren't the Ministorum way back in Book #2?

Necrons vs. Deathwatch would be my guess.
Giving Xenophase Blades to Intercessor Sergeants.

[Wraith]

Weren't the Ministorum way back in Book #2?

GW Facebook have confirmed that they'll get Psychic Awakening content later.

They got their army released at the same time as Faith & Fury but no actual rules in that book, so despite being cross-advertised at the time their Psychic Awkening comes later. Source: BoLS provides images from Facebook.

[Cheesegear]

They got their army released at the same time as Faith & Fury but no actual rules in that book

Ah yes. I remember.
Even when Sororitas get their new Codex, you've still gotta keep the Space Marine players interested.

[JNAProductions]

So, I recently downloaded the Battle Bible for Warhammer 40k 2nd Edition.

What. The. Potato.

It's madness like that I've never seen before. Was it fun? It looks like it could be a lot of fun, but... Confusing.

[Wraith]

2nd Edition was slow. Your army was generally much smaller than it would be today, because you would have to measure and check LoS for each model individually because they could all be at slightly different ranges or shooting at a target with slightly different visibility, both of which added up to different modifiers and such.

Melee combat was similarly slower as you rolled each miniature one at a time, but melee was more decisive - the system that 2nd Edition used meant that SOMEONE always got hit every turn and it was just a matter of how many times, so there was far less chance that you would just whiff the roll and not make any progress.

It was the game for pedants, who were prepared to fight to the death over the difference between one model in a squad of 10 having -1 or -2 to hit for one shot with a boltgun. It was also the game where HQ models were incredibly fearsome, and in a 2000pt army a single 1000pt Terminator Librarian would act like he was WORTH half of your army. For all its faults, it was more cinematic as it usually came down to your armies' heroes slugging it out in single combat because no one else stood a chance.

Without a shadow of a doubt, 3rd edition was a better game; faster, smoother, moving towards efficiently manoeuvring squads rather than just groups of individuals. It has retro charm, but it'd be very difficult to go back to a slower pace compared to the modern game.

[Lord Torath]

So, I recently downloaded the Battle Bible for Warhammer 40k 2nd Edition.

What. The. Potato.

It's madness like that I've never seen before. Was it fun? It looks like it could be a lot of fun, but... Confusing.

Once I figured out how close combat worked, I really liked it. It works pretty well for up to 1500 points. Above that, it gets long and slow (I played a 4000 pt game once, and it took about 9 hours, although a couple of guys from the now-defunct Omskirk Gaming Club in the UK said they played a 5,000 pt game in 3 hours).

It's much better suited to skirmish-level engagements than large-scale battles as in 3E and later. I prefer it, actually. (Yeah, yeah, I know. Git off my lawn, ya danged whippersnappers!)

[Don Qui Ho Tep]

GW Facebook have confirmed that they'll get Psychic Awakening content later.

They got their army released at the same time as Faith & Fury but no actual rules in that book, so despite being cross-advertised at the time their Psychic Awkening comes later. Source: BoLS provides images from Facebook.

Which is funny, because they play a considerable role in the campaign that is described in Faith and Fury. Again, it's just a frustrating experience when these supplements feel so haphazard and inconsistent.

[lord_khaine]

It's madness like that I've never seen before. Was it fun? It looks like it could be a lot of fun, but... Confusing.

It was really fun. Everything was Awesome!
Except for troops. They mostly existed to get blown up by your lord so he could show how awesome he were.

Vehicles were gloriously unreliable. The vehicle damage rules were strokes of genius.
You could spend 5 turns pounding a land raider with lascannons and leave it a crippled ruin that could still limp forward because you failed to roll high enough.
Or pop it turn 1 with a single heavy weapon and some stupid luck.

It made for a lot of swingy potential, but very memorable games.
And back then GW was actually ready to issue emergency errate if something was truely broken.

[Cheesegear]

It's madness like that I've never seen before. Was it fun? It looks like it could be a lot of fun, but... Confusing.

You know what gives me 2nd Ed. flashbacks?

Kill Team: Commanders

You put your HQ on the board. All other models are irrelevant, except for their ability to provide meat-sacks for the one model in your army that counts.
You get your HQ into combat with your opponent's HQ.
Whoever's HQ emerges the winner, basically wins the game.

...And that's why even GW admits that KTC was a mistake and strongly discourages Commanders from being used in Matched and Organised Play Kill Team.

It's very similar to how 30K was, in the beginning, when Primarchs were coming out on a snail's pace, and whichever Legion had their Primarchs out were the only Legions worth playing.

[Brookshw]

Okay, credit to GW for their April Fool's joke. I laughed.

[Cheesegear]

Okay, credit to GW for their April Fool's joke. I laughed.

With the 10 pounds they spent acquiring stock footage, and getting a digital artist to poorly render a cereal box; They could've given the rules designer for Gabriel Angelos seven more minutes.

[Lord Torath]

Okay, credit to GW for their April Fool's joke. I laughed.

"...Free from nutrients and flavor..."

[Renegade Paladin]

[Don Qui Ho Tep]

Any predictions for the reveals tomorrow? It's been a while since we've had an Adeptus Titanicus release, I think. Would they reveal the next Psychic Awakening book so soon after the last one?

[lord_khaine]

Oh god, that thing had me flat laughting as the music started

[Wraith]

Any predictions for the reveals tomorrow? It's been a while since we've had an Adeptus Titanicus release, I think. Would they reveal the next Psychic Awakening book so soon after the last one?

I'm half-listening to it, half checking the updates on Warhammer Community as they come out, so I'll "live-tweet them" here if anyone can't be arsed to Google the link.

2:00pm - Horus Heresy - Age of Darkness Word Bearers Praetors
...So basically, Space Marine Lieutenants again, albeit with a sculpted pauldron and some pretty engraving. Seriously, who is asking for this stuff and why can't we tie them into a sack and then throw that sack into the sea?

Also at 2pm - AoS - Lumineth Aelves army box is ready to go.
Have to admit, I quite like the look of the Lumineth models - there's enough in there that makes them looks like the old High Elves for grumpy old bastards like me, but with enough new stuff to show off the new artists and their improved technology. It's just the right mix between the two, and I'm digging it.

2:10pm - Blood Bowl - New treemen for Wood Elf and Halfling teams.
I mean, they look kind of cool, but... Wood Elves came out in June/July 2019 and Halfling came out in May 2019, why are they 8 months later still getting parts of their teams piecemeal when Chaos Dwarfs, Norse, Amazons and the other actually popular teams are nowhere to be seen?

2:20pm - Lords of the Rings - New book called "Quest of the Ringbearer", with all new miniatures for Rangers.
Here is it, folks; 20 years down the line and GW have finally made it up to the point in LotR history where the film that their entire miniature collection is based on, actually takes place.

For the record, I refuse to believe that the LotR game is an actual thing, and not just a sophisticated and obscure money laundering scheme.

2:30pm - Angels of Death animated show - Some very impressive, high-production value images from the upcoming 40k show, starring the Blood Angels' fleet and what appears to be a continent-sized Tyranid bio-ship. I like the Sin City-style colour scheme, very striking.

2:45pm - AoS - Sons of Behemat Destruction battletome.
Basically Codex: Giants - or rather, 'Gargants' as GW have rebranded them. The inevitable step up from Ogors I guess, from an army of 15-20 models now down to an army of about 5 big monsters. At least 3 named units - Kraken-eater, War-stomper and Gate-breaker - in addition to the ones already mentioned elsewhere. Sounds like someone has been reading a lot of Roald Dahl lately.

No pictures or descriptions or anything besides the names; just "the next army to come out will be Destruction: Giants" and that's all.

2:50pm - Black Library - 20th Anniversary of Daemonifuge
Ephrael Stern is getting a new plastic miniature, as is another named character from the story. I do *not* like the scenic base, but that's true for me of most scenic bases that are probably going to look out of place in anything but one specific tabletop. The Daemonifuge Graphic Novel is similarly going to be reprinted, hard-back and in full colour which is quite impressive.

Rules for both models confirmed to be in Psychic Awakening: Pariah, which seems to answer the question we had earlier - SoB will be in the new PA book. No direct confirmation on who the antagonist of the book, BUT there will also be rules for Deathwatch and Harlequins in upcoming issues of White Dwarf, which... doesn't usually work out too well, but suggests that they wont be in Pariah and thus leaves the implication being that Assassins, the Inquisition and/or Necrons might be involved.

...And that's it. I wasn't expecting much, but honestly there's nothing there of interest to me. Even the "new" stuff is remakes of old races taken out by the End Times and have just about returned, or reprints of old comics that I read the first time around....Bit of a missed opportunity, I think.

[Blackhawk748]

2:50pm - Black Library - 20th Anniversary of Daemonifuge
Ephrael Stern is getting a new plastic miniature, as is another named character from the story. I do *not* like the scenic base, but that's true for me of most scenic bases that are probably going to look out of place in anything but one specific tabletop. The Daemonifuge Graphic Novel is similarly going to be reprinted, hard-back and in full colour which is quite impressive.

Rules for both models confirmed to be in Psychic Awakening: Pariah, which seems to answer the question we had earlier - SoB will be in the new PA book. No direct confirmation on who the antagonist of the book, BUT there will also be rules for Deathwatch and Harlequins in upcoming issues of White Dwarf, which... doesn't usually work out too well, but suggests that they wont be in Pariah and thus leaves the implication being that Assassins, the Inquisition and/or Necrons might be involved.

Oh good, one of our few named characters is returning. I didn't get to read it or get her mini first time around so I'll probably do that now.

[Renegade Paladin]

In other news, GW is actually having a sale - on gift cards.

Watch, they'll do this and then raise prices before reopening so that it costs you more.

[Voidhawk]

2:30pm - Angels of Death animated show - Some very impressive, high-production value images from the upcoming 40k show, starring the Blood Angels' fleet and what appears to be a continent-sized Tyranid bio-ship. I like the Sin City-style colour scheme, very striking.

That tyranid looks alot like The Ancient One from BFG:Armada 2. It's the tyranid legendary unit: a super-massive hiveship with a billion HP and enough pyschic power to coordinate all the tyranids in the sector, or blow out the brains of an entire opposing fleet.

Interesting to see overlap between different properties. Though it could just be co-incidence: the idea of a 'nid super-hive isn't exactly hard to come up with.

[Cheesegear]

Horus Heresy - Age of Darkness Word Bearers Praetors
...So basically, Space Marine Lieutenants again...

Holy Hell. We're still on Praetors?
Meanwhile, there are still no sculpts for 30K Librarians or Chaplains.

At this point Forge World is just creating models that Space Marine players can use in 40K, to flex on nerds with 'vanilla' models.
No-one actually gives a **** about 30K.

AoS - Lumineth Aelves army box is ready to go.
Have to admit, I quite like the look of the Lumineth models...

I don't. High(born) Elves had some of my favourite models in the range back in WHFB days. That Isle of Blood Gryphon? Nice. I have every High Elf special character that they used to have, and those Wizards that they had and I now use for Cities' Battlemages...And I never even played High Elves. Those Phoenixes still look rad, and I still plan on buying a bunch for my Cities' armies.
Whatever they're doing now...Not for me.

there's enough in there that makes them looks like the old High Elves for grumpy old bastards like me

No there isn't. They don't look like High Elves at all. Unless you've been tricked by the white-and-blue paint scheme.

Blood Bowl - New treemen for Wood Elf and Halfling teams.

Wood Elf players made Treemen conversions ages ago, and Halflings are a joke team.

2:20pm - Lords of the Rings -
For the record, I refuse to believe that the LotR game is an actual thing, and not just a sophisticated and obscure money laundering scheme.

I think that GW is stuck with the licence, and there's nothing they can do about it.
If they don't do anything, they lose the licence.

Angels of Death animated show - Some very impressive, high-production value images from the upcoming 40k show, starring the Blood Angels' fleet and what appears to be a continent-sized Tyranid bio-ship. I like the Sin City-style colour scheme, very striking.

Feels like something that will get overhyped on its release, because normies have never seen anything like it.
Then normies will immediately forget about it.

AoS - Sons of Behemat Destruction battletome.
...now down to an army of about 5 big monsters.

Feels like making Codex: [Faction] Knights. It's totally unnecessary, and at best, you might want one Knight Gargant, to put as an Ally into your army. And for that, you have to buy an entire book.

- Black Library - 20th Anniversary of Daemonifuge

Let's re-release something popular! 'Cause everything new we write doesn't sell.

Rules for both models confirmed to be in Psychic Awakening: Pariah, which seems to answer the question we had earlier - SoB will be in the new PA book. No direct confirmation on who the antagonist of the book

I think at this point, I don't care.

BUT there will also be rules for Deathwatch and Harlequins in upcoming issues of White Dwarf, which... doesn't usually work out too well

1. They have to rush out the final Factions for the EoFY.
2. Selling large boxes to people, in a time when everyone is spending their money wisely, and all your brick-and-mortar stores are shut down, and shipping is ****ed, can only lead to disaster.
3. They can't actually think of anything for Deathwatch and Harlequins to do, because their Codecies are fairly limited, as-is.
4. They can't be arsed making new models, because see #2.
4b. Their sculptors are busy making Lumineth stuff, and designing Holy Cows took their entire time.

Even the "new" stuff is remakes of old races taken out by the End Times and have just about returned, or reprints of old comics that I read the first time around....Bit of a missed opportunity, I think.

No, no, no.
COVID is not making you buy things.
If COVID wasn't a thing, you totally would buy everything...Right?
Yeah. It's all COVID's fault.

[druid91]

Honestly, if I was in charge at GW. I'd be working on rules/digital releases. Interesting scenarios and things people can do without going out to buy new minis.

[Don Qui Ho Tep]

Well, the reason they're not is because they already had these previews ready to go. I think the reason they're doing these staggered previews is to keep some traffic going to their site (and plug some vouchers in the meantime). It would be more impressive if they just did it all in one big show, in my opinion (even if the quality of each individual preview is debatable - I mean, I think the generic Word Bearer HQs look pretty cool but I don't need more Terminator lords to take up space on my shelf). They're definitely in an unenviable position, certainly. I think their best bet is to keep going for the 0.99 audiobooks and other digital content - I think a lot of people will be looking for long-form audio entertainment. But I'm sure the Black Library alone can't make up for the losses they'll face for the next few months. But neither can reviewing underwhelming previews for models that people can't buy. Mip morp. Not for the first time in my life, I'm glad to not be working at GW.

[Wraith]

No there isn't. They don't look like High Elves at all. Unless you've been tricked by the white-and-blue paint scheme.

You really don't see the similarities between this and this? I've thinking in particular the tear-drop shaped blades, the tall helmets, the robe-like armour, and the runic/moon-shaped iconography - not saying it's a copy, but I can certainly see where the new models reference the old ones.

I think that GW is stuck with the licence, and there's nothing they can do about it. If they don't do anything, they lose the licence.

You're absolutely right, but I'm going to ask a question which I think is quite pertinent: So what?

What else is happened with the LotR licence that makes that important? There are no new films planned, no animated series, no stage show, not even a Netflix-exclusive series like The Witcher or Castlevania... Why is holding on to LotR so important? I genuinely don't believe it makes them any profit any more, and holding on to the licence just for the sake of doing so is hardly a guarantee of quality. Surely an inferior product means less sales, which means greater loss, which means even less quality... It's a downward spiral that's waiting to happen, if it isn't already.

Feels like making Codex: [Faction] Knights. It's totally unnecessary, and at best, you might want one Knight Gargant, to put as an Ally into your army. And for that, you have to buy an entire book.

I can at least see why there's a niche for that, in AoS. Typical GW price-gouging on needing the books, of course, but it's not a completely vestigial choice.
It would have been far more interesting if that had gone with dragons or some kind of high-fantasy equivalent, perhaps, since I can't say that giants are that interesting, but then I'm not an AoS player so maybe there is something in the fandom for them

No, no, no.
COVID is not making you buy things.
If COVID wasn't a thing, you totally would buy everything...Right?
Yeah. It's all COVID's fault.

This is what I find contradictory. CORVID-19 related lockdowns have, in western Europe, only been a thing for about a month or so - less in the UK where GW is based and hardly at all in the USA where their other big facility is. Can they only plan up to 6 weeks in advance for all of their new releases?

I guess what it really means is that Psychic Awakening: Pariah has probably already been written and printed, and is probably on a boat from China as we speak. Customs and delays due to lockdown aside, they know that it exists and now it's just a matter of release and distribution, so they can talk about it as much as they like.
The reason we can't have Psychic Awakening book #9 for Harlequins and Deathwatch is because, on top of their writers and play-testers being in isolation, they can't place an order to get it made and have no way to get it to Nottingham. Which seems like folly to me - by the end of May lockdown will *probably* come to an end, and everyone is going to rush out to spend money and make up for lost time, so why not ensure that there's a product ready and waiting for them?

[Cheesegear]

It would have been far more interesting if that had gone with dragons or some kind of high-fantasy equivalent...

Literally.
Every time GW release something, I'm like 'Cool story, bro. Needs more Dragons.'

Which seems like folly to me - by the end of May lockdown will *probably* come to an end

In Australia, our Prime Minister (who doesn't have COVID) said lockdown might extend to October.
Our economy will tank long before then. Nobody believes lockdown will go to October. It'll be more a case of 'If you are high-risk, or you live with the same (unless you're a healthcare worker, and then the people you live with just have to hack it), you're on lockdown. Everyone else get back to work...Please. We literally need you to.'

and everyone is going to rush out to spend money and make up for lost time...

...You say that like a whole bunch of people haven't lost their jobs or seen their workhours plummet, and that when all this is over, that people will even have money to spend.