Support the GITP forums on Patreon
Help support GITP's forums (and ongoing server maintenance) via Patreon
Page 43 of 43 FirstFirst ... 183334353637383940414243
Results 1,261 to 1,288 of 1288
  1. - Top - End - #1261
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    NecromancerGuy

    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Durham, UK
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXIX: Miracle on 39th Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by LansXero View Post
    The more changes like this are made the less valid the "you can use your old books to play" mantra becomes, as books made with a steady flow of CPs in mind will dunk on books that rely on frontloading strat activation to wipe out their enemy in turn 1 so they dont get wiped out themselves. Making a gap between old and new books might help them sell models or might just make people quit for a couple of years until their book comes out.
    TBH, losing "I wipe you off the battlefield turn 1" as a play style doesn't feel like that great a loss, and can almost guarantee there aren't any books designed with that as the intention. Of course, there are books that ended up that way as the most efficient way of playing the army, but losing those lists feels very much like a feature, rather than a bug!
    Evil round every corner, careful not to step in any.

  2. - Top - End - #1262
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    Daemon

    Join Date
    May 2020

    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXIX: Miracle on 39th Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Avaris View Post
    TBH, losing "I wipe you off the battlefield turn 1" as a play style doesn't feel like that great a loss, and can almost guarantee there aren't any books designed with that as the intention. Of course, there are books that ended up that way as the most efficient way of playing the army, but losing those lists feels very much like a feature, rather than a bug!
    Me and my friends have been playing on TTS over shutdown for the first time in 8E really, and we're really hating how alpha-strike the game feels right now, so yeah. It would be nice if things were a bit more durable than killy I think.

    Speaking of which, any ideas? It feels like whatever goes first has a pretty good shot of just wiping out half the enemy army before they get to do anything if they're a ranged shooty list.
    Last edited by Keraunograf; Yesterday at 08:12 PM.

  3. - Top - End - #1263
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Forum Explorer's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Canada
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXIX: Miracle on 39th Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraunograf View Post
    Me and my friends have been playing on TTS over shutdown for the first time in 8E really, and we're really hating how alpha-strike the game feels right now, so yeah. It would be nice if things were a bit more durable than killy I think.

    Speaking of which, any ideas? It feels like whatever goes first has a pretty good shot of just wiping out half the enemy army before they get to do anything if they're a ranged shooty list.
    Durability seems to come in a few forms in 8th:

    T5 or better,
    Ignoring Damage,
    Penalties to be hit (not quite as good as is was though)
    Sheer numbers
    2+ or better save
    LoS blocking terrain

    The last one is probably the most important. If all of his stuff can see all of your stuff, then yeah, he's got a massive advantage. But if he can only see some of your stuff, or better yet, only some of his stuff can only see some of your stuff, then he just doesn't have the weight of shots to do too much damage. So make sure there's enough terrain on the board, and that the terrain actually does something. I played a game with nothing but forests before, and the shooty army easily dominated as a result.
    Spoiler: I'm a writer!
    Show
    Spoiler: Check out my fanfiction[URL="https://www.fanfiction.net/u/7493788/Forum-Explorer"
    Show
    here[/URL]
    ]Fate Stay Nano: Fate Stay Night x Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha

    I Fell in Love with a Storm: MLP

    Procrastination: MLP



    Spoiler: Original Fiction
    Show
    The Lost Dragon: A story about a priest who finds a baby dragon in his church and decides to protect them.



  4. - Top - End - #1264
    Titan in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jan 2008

    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXIX: Miracle on 39th Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Avaris View Post
    Quite like the idea of command points being a steady flow throughout the game, rather than all at once.
    I like the idea. That's how Kill Team and AoS work.
    Unfortunately, fractional CPs as the game progresses, kills playstyles.
    We know that CPs are used to bring in Reinforcements (like in Kill Team), and we know CPs are used to bring in Allies into your army list.

    1. In Kill Team you get 2CPs - sometimes 1, rarely 3 - per turn. You can, with a black marker, write of half - if not more - Tactics out of every Faction. You will never, ever use certain Tactics, because they come at the cost of using other Tactics. And, of course every turn, you'll also need a pocket CP for a re-roll every Round.

    Limited CPs, means limited Tactics and Reserves, which, in Kill Team, works fine, because there aren't that many Tactics anyway, and exactly half the time, Reserves usually aren't that good anyway.

    2. In Age of Sigmar you get - usually - somewhere between 1-3 CPs to use Command Abilities. That's fine. Because Command Abilities are near-exclusively found on Leader models, of which, most armies will only have four or less. You don't need a lot of CPs, because you don't have a lot of CAs. It's fine, You can work around it.

    CPs per turn, in 40K, annihilates pages' worth of stuff out Factions. A ****-ton of Stratagems will be non-viable, because they come at the cost of other Stratagems.
    Several units in the game (e.g; Sternguard) become non-viable. What makes a particular unit work, is a Stratagem. If you've got 14 CPs, you can spare 1, on Turn 1, for the unit to do its thing. It does the thing, then dies, but it's okay. Because the Sternguard having +1 to wound for a phase, didn't come at the cost of doing Hellfire Shells.
    Black marker, meet Stratagems.

    What this does, is massively increase the viability of net-lists because Stratgem complexity goes out the window.
    Lists 'that play themselves' become more common.

    For example...
    Wisdom of the Ancients costs a CP to give everyone within 6" of a <Dreadnought>, rr1 to hit.
    It's a really good Stratagem for Space Marine players who rely on Jump Captains, with Venerable Dreadnoughts (Lascannon, Missile Launcher) to do heavy lifting. The most obvious examples being Deathwatch and Grey Knights. Space Wolf Long Fangs love hanging out with Dreads whilst their Wolf Lords run up the board.
    That playstyle, that option is now removed from the Codex, because it wont be viable anymore to spend a CP every turn when you have so few per turn.

    This is bad.
    Again, in Kill Team you can read your opponent based on the amount of CPs they have. You know which Tactics are viable, and which aren't. You know they have limited choices.
    Limited choices, means less choices.
    That is, every [Faction] player, more or less has the exact same playstyle (not the same Roster), because that's all the options allow.


    Again, this might be fine, depending on CPs per turn.
    But if:
    a) Reinforcements or alternate Deployment, costs CPs, and
    b) Allies cost CPs, and
    c) Pocket re-rolls,
    I don't see Stratagems as being viable parts of your game plan anymore...That is, it's a waste of space in every Codex to have more than one page.

    Even in Cities of Sigmar - a book designed around making your army a clusterf* (exception for Anvilgard) - you can take all the Command Abilities in the entire book, and fit them on one page.
    Limited CPs makes sense, because it's not like you can spend them on anything anyway.

    It's a lot like 'Build your own Sub-Factions.'
    There are ~20 options,
    There are 3, maybe 4 good ones,
    Choose two.
    WTF are the other ~15 for except to waste page-space?

    There's nothing wrong with the system of progressive CPs.
    ...Except that the system doesn't work with current Codecies...When is bad when "You can still use your current Codex."

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraunograf View Post
    Speaking of which, any ideas? It feels like whatever goes first has a pretty good shot of just wiping out half the enemy army before they get to do anything if they're a ranged shooty list.
    1. More LoS-blocking terrain.
    2. The armies are mis-matched to begin with, and if you weren't shot off the board on Turn 1...It'd be Turn 2. Regardless, one of the two players needs to rewrite their entire army if they're tabled on Turn 1. Top-tier tournament players don't lose on Turn 1 (or 2, rarely 3), and that's a format where you're encouraged to play for Kill Points over everything else.
    3. Melee armies are generally terrible. If you 'didn't get to do anything', because your army is mostly or all melee-orientated...Unfortunately, that's fairly common and there is no advice anyone can give you to solve it. Use more ranged units and fight back.
    Last edited by Cheesegear; Today at 02:45 AM.
    Steam Name: Cheesegear
    League of Legends Name: Cheesegear
    You can fight like a krogan or run like a leopard but you'll never be better than Commander Shepard.


    Spoiler
    Show
    Quote Originally Posted by Anuan View Post
    Cheesegear; Lovable Thesaurus ItP.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lycan 01 View Post
    Cheesegear, have I told you yet that you're awesome?
    Quote Originally Posted by MeatShield#236 View Post
    ALL HAIL LORD CHEESEGEAR! Cheese for the cheesegear!
    Quote Originally Posted by Shas'aia Toriia View Post
    Cheesegear is awesome

  5. - Top - End - #1265
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    NecromancerGuy

    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Durham, UK
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXIX: Miracle on 39th Thread

    @Cheesegear: completely agree would not work with low numbers each turn. Part of the design goal for ninth seems to be having more CP and stratagems in use though, so I don’t think it will be as low numbers as seen in Kill Team. My gut feeling says maybe 5/turn for a 2000 pt game? I’m expecting something in that ballpark. Not sure if that is enough though.
    Evil round every corner, careful not to step in any.

  6. - Top - End - #1266
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Forum Explorer's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Canada
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXIX: Miracle on 39th Thread

    @Cheesegear: Well all that is completely dependent on how many CP you get isn't it? Also considering the many stratagems that do stuff pregame, that either means we will also get a pool of CP to start with, or at least, there will be a 'turn 0' where you generate CP as well.

    However I do agree that it will invalidate playstyles. Mainly the super CP hungry playstyles like Blood Angels where they might dump something like 8 CP on a single unit in a turn. It might also invalidate the combos that often dominate the game right now, where you spend something like 6 CP to give a unit +1 to wound, reroll misses, and shoot again. Or what not.

    I actually expect it will add new playstyles as well. Either in playstyles that aren't as CP hungry, or in factions that don't have access to such powerful combos, and not having to deal with them gives them an indirect power boost.

    On the other hand, you might have a glut of command points and get something like 10 a turn. In which case, the best armies are the ones that can actually spend 10 CP a turn on effective stuff. Which I think might actually lead to things being even more stagnant with how good Space Marines are at spending CP right now.
    Spoiler: I'm a writer!
    Show
    Spoiler: Check out my fanfiction[URL="https://www.fanfiction.net/u/7493788/Forum-Explorer"
    Show
    here[/URL]
    ]Fate Stay Nano: Fate Stay Night x Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha

    I Fell in Love with a Storm: MLP

    Procrastination: MLP



    Spoiler: Original Fiction
    Show
    The Lost Dragon: A story about a priest who finds a baby dragon in his church and decides to protect them.



  7. - Top - End - #1267
    Titan in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jan 2008

    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXIX: Miracle on 39th Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Avaris View Post
    @Cheesegear: completely agree would not work with low numbers each turn. Part of the design goal for ninth seems to be having more CP and stratagems in use though, so I donÂ’t think it will be as low numbers as seen in Kill Team. My gut feeling says maybe 5/turn for a 2000 pt game?
    Again. Not my issue. My issue for 40K, is that if you limit the amount players' choices, the likelihood that two players will make the same choice, is greater.

    That is, playing a Grey Knight player, is exactly the same as playing any other Grey Knight player, because there are no choices in that Codex, because what's a viable strategy, is so much more viable than any other choice in the book.

    But, in context;
    Do you think [Unit X] is good, because for 1 CP per turn, it can do [Stratagem for Unit X]?

    Oooh. Oooh. I know.
    Intercessors with Stalker Bolt Rifles can pay 3 CPs to target Characters and deal Mortal Wounds. When you have 14CPs, 3 of them, seems like a fair trade. You've got plenty more where that came from.
    **** that. Reduce the amount of CPs you get, to say 5...You don't have 5 CPs on Turn 4 because you've already spent them all, that's normal. You have 5CPs to spend on Turn 1. Eating 3 of those CPs, to do one thing, only leaves you with 2CPs to do anything else.
    This ensures that Deathwatch players wont ever use that Stratagem again...That is...They wont use Intercessors with Stalker Bolt Rifles ever again. That is...Their army will become more similar to every other Deathwatch player's.

    Limiting players' choices, means the same (and/or best and most-viable) choice, is used more often, because other choices, don't make sense to do.
    Making CPs zero-sum, starting from Turn 1...Feels bad, man... At least with our current Codecies that we're supposed to use until told otherwise.

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    I actually expect it will add new playstyles as well. Either in playstyles that aren't as CP hungry, or in factions that don't have access to such powerful combos, and not having to deal with them gives them an indirect power boost.
    Take current!Necrons. They have like...3 Stratagems worth using. They now have the ability to use those every turn, instead of going all out on Turn 1, and then if they haven't already won the game on Turn 3, they've lost. Current Necrons see a huge boost with CPs-per-turn, rather than CPs per game. Because current Necrons only use 2-4 CPs per turn anyway, and they're out of steam by Turn 2.
    Contrasted to the example you used; Blood Angels. Very likely to end up a dead Codex, unless the rules for Reinforcements are drastically changed.
    Last edited by Cheesegear; Today at 03:17 AM.
    Steam Name: Cheesegear
    League of Legends Name: Cheesegear
    You can fight like a krogan or run like a leopard but you'll never be better than Commander Shepard.


    Spoiler
    Show
    Quote Originally Posted by Anuan View Post
    Cheesegear; Lovable Thesaurus ItP.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lycan 01 View Post
    Cheesegear, have I told you yet that you're awesome?
    Quote Originally Posted by MeatShield#236 View Post
    ALL HAIL LORD CHEESEGEAR! Cheese for the cheesegear!
    Quote Originally Posted by Shas'aia Toriia View Post
    Cheesegear is awesome

  8. - Top - End - #1268
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Wraith's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    England
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXIX: Miracle on 39th Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    There's nothing wrong with the system of progressive CPs.
    ...Except that the system doesn't work with current Codecies...When is bad when "You can still use your current Codex."
    What I'm hearing is, segregated codices.

    There will be those Factions who have the current books "which they can still use", and there will be factions who get a new Codex with actually relevant rules in them that work properly in 9e.

    There's always some transition between editions as new books fall into line with the new edition... But then there's always some books that doesn't get updated for 2 years, too, so here's hoping it's not YOUR army this time around!

    9e sounds like it has a lot of promise. It also sounds like you really shouldn't play it for the first 6-12 months until more than a handful of armies have up-to-date rules... And I, who plays niche factions like Grey Knights and Thousand Sons, probably shouldn't bother for more like 2 years....
    ~ CAUTION: May Contain Weasels ~
    RPG Characters What I Done Played As (Explained Badly)
    17 Things I Learned About 40k By Playing Dark Heresy
    Tales of a Role-Play Gamer - Horrible Optimisation

  9. - Top - End - #1269
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Forum Explorer's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Canada
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXIX: Miracle on 39th Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    Take current!Necrons. They have like...3 Stratagems worth using. They now have the ability to use those every turn, instead of going all out on Turn 1, and then if they haven't already won the game on Turn 3, they've lost. Current Necrons see a huge boost with CPs-per-turn, rather than CPs per game. Because current Necrons only use 2-4 CPs per turn anyway, and they're out of steam by Turn 2.
    Contrasted to the example you used; Blood Angels. Very likely to end up a dead Codex, unless the rules for Reinforcements are drastically changed.
    Pretty much what I was thinking. Unless of course you have too many CP per turn. Then Necron are even worse off because they can only really spend like 6 CP if they really push it, and even then they are getting diminishing returns. Meanwhile Space Marines have a ton of stratagems and being able to use all of them, all the time, would be insanely powerful.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wraith View Post
    What I'm hearing is, segregated codices.

    There will be those Factions who have the current books "which they can still use", and there will be factions who get a new Codex with actually relevant rules in them that work properly in 9e.

    There's always some transition between editions as new books fall into line with the new edition... But then there's always some books that doesn't get updated for 2 years, too, so here's hoping it's not YOUR army this time around!

    9e sounds like it has a lot of promise. It also sounds like you really shouldn't play it for the first 6-12 months until more than a handful of armies have up-to-date rules... And I, who plays niche factions like Grey Knights and Thousand Sons, probably shouldn't bother for more like 2 years....
    Way too soon to tell. We're still missing so many of the gritty details that'll really shape the meta.
    Last edited by Forum Explorer; Today at 03:39 AM.
    Spoiler: I'm a writer!
    Show
    Spoiler: Check out my fanfiction[URL="https://www.fanfiction.net/u/7493788/Forum-Explorer"
    Show
    here[/URL]
    ]Fate Stay Nano: Fate Stay Night x Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha

    I Fell in Love with a Storm: MLP

    Procrastination: MLP



    Spoiler: Original Fiction
    Show
    The Lost Dragon: A story about a priest who finds a baby dragon in his church and decides to protect them.



  10. - Top - End - #1270
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    NecromancerGuy

    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Durham, UK
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXIX: Miracle on 39th Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Wraith View Post
    What I'm hearing is, segregated codices.

    There will be those Factions who have the current books "which they can still use", and there will be factions who get a new Codex with actually relevant rules in them that work properly in 9e.

    There's always some transition between editions as new books fall into line with the new edition... But then there's always some books that doesn't get updated for 2 years, too, so here's hoping it's not YOUR army this time around!

    9e sounds like it has a lot of promise. It also sounds like you really shouldn't play it for the first 6-12 months until more than a handful of armies have up-to-date rules... And I, who plays niche factions like Grey Knights and Thousand Sons, probably shouldn't bother for more like 2 years....
    This is, supposedly, what Psychic Awakening is supposed to help with: PA was written with 9th ed in mind, as have the last few codexes, so every army theoretically has some rules written fresh for this edition. Whether it’s enough or not is a different matter, but ‘old’ codexes shouldn’t just be immediately written off.
    Evil round every corner, careful not to step in any.

  11. - Top - End - #1271
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    LansXero's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Lima, Peru
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXIX: Miracle on 39th Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Avaris View Post
    This is, supposedly, what Psychic Awakening is supposed to help with: PA was written with 9th ed in mind, as have the last few codexes, so every army theoretically has some rules written fresh for this edition. Whether it’s enough or not is a different matter, but ‘old’ codexes shouldn’t just be immediately written off.
    Surely you dont mean the PA books with a glut of more unit-specific strat and "pay CPs for an special rule on this model" strats, right? What sense does it make to add more ways to spend CPs to enter a ruleset where CPs dry out?

    As for the AoS comparison, as far as Command Abilities go they barely get used and are mostly irrelevant. This is why most books get patched up with an alternative resource stream to fuel the kind of things stratagems do in 40k: Discipline tokens for Ossiarchs, Warpstone tokens, Waagh points, etc. As Cheese pointed out, current changes seem to lead towards a very boring, samey, stagnant game

    GW is designing a game for people who wont auto-pick the best. They dont get that Tactical Re-roll is a gatekeeper; everything will always be measured against it, so it doesnt matter how situationally exciting other options are, re-rolling things will kill half of them if CPs are scarce. For all the "powerful combos" of things like BAs, they arent dominating right now; coupled with the new "no troop tax required" we are entering a game with a very solved state, which is a far cry from the final days of 8th edition, which to me have been really interesting in a round to round way. Yes, inexperienced people will get shot out of the table turn one, but then you learn how to make better balanced tables, you learn to deploy while keeping firing lines in mind, you improve. And it stops being this boogeymen everyone seems so afraid of, and even ends up being a trap due to somebody overextending turn 1 for not enough real damage then getting punished. That counterplay is good, because it keeps people from being bored, but thats people who actually do play, not once every other month casuals who just complain as they watch battle reports.

  12. - Top - End - #1272
    Titan in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jan 2008

    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXIX: Miracle on 39th Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by LansXero View Post
    Surely you dont mean the PA books with a glut of more unit-specific strat and "pay CPs for an special rule on this model" strats, right? What sense does it make to add more ways to spend CPs to enter a ruleset where CPs dry out?
    I was gonna say. If Psychic Awakening adds new Stratagems - and I know that it does - then it probably isn't designed for 9th.

    As for the AoS comparison, as far as Command Abilities go they barely get used and are mostly irrelevant.
    Oh ****. I forgot about 'extra Bookkeeping'. Khorne's Blood Tithe lets you do stuff, etc. Yeah. That's a PitA.

    GW is designing a game for people who wont auto-pick the best. They dont get that Tactical Re-roll is a gatekeeper; everything will always be measured against it, so it doesnt matter how situationally exciting other options are, re-rolling things will kill half of them if CPs are scarce.
    Let's call this a 'CPs to Viable Stratagems' ratio, and then add one for Viable Stratagems, for re-rolls.

    Come on, kids! Let's try it.
    - First, you count all the Stratagems you have in your Faction. Then, you choose the ones you would use every single turn, if you could (hint; The answer isn't 'all of them')...Don't forget to carry the re-roll.
    - Does your army work, if you got 3CPs per turn? 5? 8? How many Stratagems and CPs do you require, for your army to function?
    - Now add up the number of all Stratagems you wouldn't use, if CPs were zero-sum?
    - Use this time, now, to think about what else could be written on those pages. To help getting you started on the train, try thinking "Why does every Faction have like 15 Relics, if we only ever get to choose one?" ...And then try answering that.
    - Forget 'what we know', we can guess, right now, where the sweet spot is going to be for each Faction. When the secret number of CPs-per-turn is revealed, we can know immediately which Factions are garbage, and which aren't...

    At the very least, we can know almost immediately which Factions will be interesting to play and/or play against, and which wont be.
    ...To get you started, you can be doing this in Kill Team, right now. A very interesting question is:
    "What were Space Marines Teams doing with their 2CPs per turn, when Death Denied was 2CPs, and why did that need to change? What happened to the meta, when Space Marines got hard-nerfed so that Death Denied was 3CPs instead of 2?"

    ...we are entering a game with a very solved state...
    No Lans. We have to playtest.
    Steam Name: Cheesegear
    League of Legends Name: Cheesegear
    You can fight like a krogan or run like a leopard but you'll never be better than Commander Shepard.


    Spoiler
    Show
    Quote Originally Posted by Anuan View Post
    Cheesegear; Lovable Thesaurus ItP.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lycan 01 View Post
    Cheesegear, have I told you yet that you're awesome?
    Quote Originally Posted by MeatShield#236 View Post
    ALL HAIL LORD CHEESEGEAR! Cheese for the cheesegear!
    Quote Originally Posted by Shas'aia Toriia View Post
    Cheesegear is awesome

  13. - Top - End - #1273
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    SamuraiGuy

    Join Date
    Oct 2012

    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXIX: Miracle on 39th Thread

    I think we could all agree that this would be solved by just adding the double turn to 40k.

  14. - Top - End - #1274
    Colossus in the Playground
     
    JNAProductions's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Location
    Avatar By Linklele!

    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXIX: Miracle on 39th Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Requizen View Post
    I think we could all agree that this would be solved by just adding the double turn to 40k.
    No! Bad Requizen! Don't make me get the spray bottle! :P
    I have a LOT of Homebrew!

    Spoiler: Former Avatars
    Show
    Spoiler: Avatar (Not In Use) By Professor Gnoll!
    Show


    Spoiler: Avatar (Not In Use) By Cdr. Fallout!
    Show

  15. - Top - End - #1275
    Firbolg in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXIX: Miracle on 39th Thread

    *pokes head in thread*

    So, uh. Hello, new here. I picked up a few tyranid models back in about 2017, when I heard the bugs were doing as well as they looked for the first time since forever. With the quarantine up, I've finally had the time to finish assembling them and start with painting.

    Is there any prognosis on whether or not the bugs are likely to be usable in 9th edition?
    Used to be DMofDarkness
    Old avatar by Elagune.
    Spoiler: Collection of Signature Quotes
    Show

  16. - Top - End - #1276
    Colossus in the Playground
     
    JNAProductions's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Location
    Avatar By Linklele!

    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXIX: Miracle on 39th Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Fable Wright View Post
    *pokes head in thread*

    So, uh. Hello, new here. I picked up a few tyranid models back in about 2017, when I heard the bugs were doing as well as they looked for the first time since forever. With the quarantine up, I've finally had the time to finish assembling them and start with painting.

    Is there any prognosis on whether or not the bugs are likely to be usable in 9th edition?
    Usable? 100%-they're a major faction. They aren't gonna get dumped in the bin.

    Good? We have no idea.
    I have a LOT of Homebrew!

    Spoiler: Former Avatars
    Show
    Spoiler: Avatar (Not In Use) By Professor Gnoll!
    Show


    Spoiler: Avatar (Not In Use) By Cdr. Fallout!
    Show

  17. - Top - End - #1277
    Firbolg in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXIX: Miracle on 39th Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by JNAProductions View Post
    Usable? 100%-they're a major faction. They aren't gonna get dumped in the bin.

    Good? We have no idea.
    I have heard horror stories of pie plates and 6/7th editions. They're not going to get squatted, it's safe to say, but that doesn't mean that they'll be able to win games/be fun to use at any point, to my awareness.
    Used to be DMofDarkness
    Old avatar by Elagune.
    Spoiler: Collection of Signature Quotes
    Show

  18. - Top - End - #1278
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    Daemon

    Join Date
    May 2020

    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXIX: Miracle on 39th Thread

    Ok so we're all somewhat fluffy players, my group of friends is playing: slaanesh demons/dark mechanicus/chaos knights soup, infantry spam guard, tsons/grey knights/blood angels(not soup, just switches a lot), green tide, salamanders with lots of primaris, infantry and flamer spam sororitas, mechanicus infantry spam, and then me as dark eldar, with wraith host allies.

    We've been using the it ruins map and other prebuilt maps that seem to have big ruins in the middle on either side and then smattering of terrain around it, my understanding was that they are supposed to be pretty balanced maps for terrain?

    Regarding early tabling... It seems very rock paper scissors? Orkz can't do anything to to the guard before getting murdered by flashlights, I can't do much to the orkz before they da jump squads in and charge from 9"(evil sunz seems to make this incredibly consistent), demons are great into the guard but against tougher or more mobile enemies have issues... Etc. It might also be that we're playing at 750 points while everyone is still new? It feels like alpha strikes would be more of an issue as you get more points rather than less.

    Note: the player playing with a knight is waiting until 1250 to 1500 points to bring one, not bringing one at 750.
    Last edited by Keraunograf; Today at 12:02 PM.

  19. - Top - End - #1279
    Colossus in the Playground
     
    JNAProductions's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Location
    Avatar By Linklele!

    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXIX: Miracle on 39th Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Fable Wright View Post
    I have heard horror stories of pie plates and 6/7th editions. They're not going to get squatted, it's safe to say, but that doesn't mean that they'll be able to win games/be fun to use at any point, to my awareness.
    Well, do you want to be a tournament player? Or just casually?

    At the tournament level, Tyranids generally have one, MAYBE TWO competitive builds. Casually, though, you can do a lot more, because people aren't hyper-optimizing.
    I have a LOT of Homebrew!

    Spoiler: Former Avatars
    Show
    Spoiler: Avatar (Not In Use) By Professor Gnoll!
    Show


    Spoiler: Avatar (Not In Use) By Cdr. Fallout!
    Show

  20. - Top - End - #1280
    Titan in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jan 2008

    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXIX: Miracle on 39th Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Fable Wright View Post
    I have heard horror stories of pie plates and 6/7th editions. They're not going to get squatted, it's safe to say, but that doesn't mean that they'll be able to win games/be fun to use at any point, to my awareness.
    If you're not playing with chess clocks, Tyranids are currently one of the best Factions in the game, if you can throw down the cash to play them right.
    Whether you're buying ****-tons of Monsters, or covering the board in Gaunts/Gants, you're spending money.

    At this stage, it's too early to tell how 9th Ed. will play out. But unless dramatic rules shifts:
    1. Tyranids have several Stratagems worth playing, all the time, and at least two viable play-styles if one set of Stratagems doesn't interest you. Restricting CP usage is unlikely to hurt them too badly.
    2. Tyranids rarely - if ever - use Allies. They're not gonna need CPs for that.
    3. Tyranids do, however, like playing with Reinforcements - specifically, tunnels - so maybe they'll need CP for that.

    4. Terrain isn't such an issue for Tyranids, since they always have access to Malanthropes Venomthropes, in metas where the terrain is shonky.
    5. Monsters being able to shoot whilst in Melee is going to be massive - even if it's 6s to hit, Tyranid Monsters get a lot of shots.

    7. The major killer for most Tyranid players is in what form, and how common, the new Explosive weapon rule will be. Which is likely to reduce Tyranids to a single play-style.
    Steam Name: Cheesegear
    League of Legends Name: Cheesegear
    You can fight like a krogan or run like a leopard but you'll never be better than Commander Shepard.


    Spoiler
    Show
    Quote Originally Posted by Anuan View Post
    Cheesegear; Lovable Thesaurus ItP.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lycan 01 View Post
    Cheesegear, have I told you yet that you're awesome?
    Quote Originally Posted by MeatShield#236 View Post
    ALL HAIL LORD CHEESEGEAR! Cheese for the cheesegear!
    Quote Originally Posted by Shas'aia Toriia View Post
    Cheesegear is awesome

  21. - Top - End - #1281
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Forum Explorer's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Canada
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXIX: Miracle on 39th Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Fable Wright View Post
    *pokes head in thread*

    So, uh. Hello, new here. I picked up a few tyranid models back in about 2017, when I heard the bugs were doing as well as they looked for the first time since forever. With the quarantine up, I've finally had the time to finish assembling them and start with painting.

    Is there any prognosis on whether or not the bugs are likely to be usable in 9th edition?
    8th has been very kind to Tyranids, and they even ruled the competitive scene for a while, until they managed to eat a triple nerf to the face. Now they are still decent, and have a really strong competitive list, but it's not longer the insanity of managing to basically always go first and only setting up their army after the first turn began.

    As for how they'll do in 9th, well Cheesegear did a very good post. Most things we've seen thus far will be beneficial to Tyranids, with only the explosive rule being bad for them. Which will only effect their lists which spam hordes, and honestly, I don't think it'll effect them that much. Against an army like Guard who are likely filled with explosive weapons, they might struggle.

    But against stuff like Space Marines? The increase in effectiveness of explosive weapons won't compensate for all the stuff Space Marines are losing going into 9th, so Tyranids will be better off.
    Spoiler: I'm a writer!
    Show
    Spoiler: Check out my fanfiction[URL="https://www.fanfiction.net/u/7493788/Forum-Explorer"
    Show
    here[/URL]
    ]Fate Stay Nano: Fate Stay Night x Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha

    I Fell in Love with a Storm: MLP

    Procrastination: MLP



    Spoiler: Original Fiction
    Show
    The Lost Dragon: A story about a priest who finds a baby dragon in his church and decides to protect them.



  22. - Top - End - #1282
    Colossus in the Playground
     
    JNAProductions's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Location
    Avatar By Linklele!

    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXIX: Miracle on 39th Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    8th has been very kind to Tyranids, and they even ruled the competitive scene for a while, until they managed to eat a triple nerf to the face. Now they are still decent, and have a really strong competitive list, but it's not longer the insanity of managing to basically always go first and only setting up their army after the first turn began.

    As for how they'll do in 9th, well Cheesegear did a very good post. Most things we've seen thus far will be beneficial to Tyranids, with only the explosive rule being bad for them. Which will only effect their lists which spam hordes, and honestly, I don't think it'll effect them that much. Against an army like Guard who are likely filled with explosive weapons, they might struggle.

    But against stuff like Space Marines? The increase in effectiveness of explosive weapons won't compensate for all the stuff Space Marines are losing going into 9th, so Tyranids will be better off.
    What are Marines losing in 9th?
    I have a LOT of Homebrew!

    Spoiler: Former Avatars
    Show
    Spoiler: Avatar (Not In Use) By Professor Gnoll!
    Show


    Spoiler: Avatar (Not In Use) By Cdr. Fallout!
    Show

  23. - Top - End - #1283
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Forum Explorer's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Canada
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXIX: Miracle on 39th Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by JNAProductions View Post
    What are Marines losing in 9th?
    The biggest thing so far is command points. Marines can be very CP hungry, particularly pregame where they'll do stuff like upgrade to chapter master, take extra relics, take extra warlord traits, and upgrade a chaplin/tech marine/apothecary, and perhaps take another trait for them. Then they tend to be CP hungry in game with things like fighting again, using Transhuman, and so on.

    But they also lose out with terrain. The more effective terrain is, the more it hurts shooty armies, which Space Marines basically are right now. But we don't really know enough to know how it will hurt Space Marines though.

    Allies costing you stuff will also hurt Space Marines. Even Space Marine + Space Marines will cost them CP, and they are already pretty strapped for CP as is. On that note, detachments costing CP hurts Space Marines as well, mainly cause they take a lot of HQ choices. I don't think a single Battalion will be enough for a lot of Space Marine builds.

    And all of that makes taking Vigilus detachments even more costly, because again, that's more CP spent in the pregame.
    Spoiler: I'm a writer!
    Show
    Spoiler: Check out my fanfiction[URL="https://www.fanfiction.net/u/7493788/Forum-Explorer"
    Show
    here[/URL]
    ]Fate Stay Nano: Fate Stay Night x Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha

    I Fell in Love with a Storm: MLP

    Procrastination: MLP



    Spoiler: Original Fiction
    Show
    The Lost Dragon: A story about a priest who finds a baby dragon in his church and decides to protect them.



  24. - Top - End - #1284
    Troll in the Playground
     
    druid91's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Lemuria
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXIX: Miracle on 39th Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    The biggest thing so far is command points. Marines can be very CP hungry, particularly pregame where they'll do stuff like upgrade to chapter master, take extra relics, take extra warlord traits, and upgrade a chaplin/tech marine/apothecary, and perhaps take another trait for them. Then they tend to be CP hungry in game with things like fighting again, using Transhuman, and so on.

    But they also lose out with terrain. The more effective terrain is, the more it hurts shooty armies, which Space Marines basically are right now. But we don't really know enough to know how it will hurt Space Marines though.

    Allies costing you stuff will also hurt Space Marines. Even Space Marine + Space Marines will cost them CP, and they are already pretty strapped for CP as is. On that note, detachments costing CP hurts Space Marines as well, mainly cause they take a lot of HQ choices. I don't think a single Battalion will be enough for a lot of Space Marine builds.

    And all of that makes taking Vigilus detachments even more costly, because again, that's more CP spent in the pregame.
    Have they said that CP will be reduced? If anything I feel like it would be increased overall.
    Spoiler
    Show
    Quote Originally Posted by AvatarZero View Post
    I like the "hobo" in there.
    "Hey, you just got 10000gp! You going to buy a fully staffed mansion or something?"
    "Nah, I'll upgrade my +2 sword to a +3 sword and sleep in my cloak."

    Non est salvatori salvator, neque defensori dominus, nec pater nec mater, nihil supernum.

    Torumekian knight Avatar by Licoot.

    Note to self: Never get involved in an ethics thread again...Especially if I'm defending the empire.

  25. - Top - End - #1285
    Titan in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jan 2008

    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXIX: Miracle on 39th Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by druid91 View Post
    Have they said that CP will be reduced? If anything I feel like it would be increased overall.
    Even if CPs are only 3 per round (at a lower end guess), over the course of the game, that's 15 CPs, which is more than 2 Battalions, now.
    However, armies that might rely on highly explosive Turn 1s, who would like to use something like 5-8CPs on Turn 1 - yes, even if that means spending 0 CPs, on Turns 4 or 5 - will see significantly reduced effectiveness.
    Steam Name: Cheesegear
    League of Legends Name: Cheesegear
    You can fight like a krogan or run like a leopard but you'll never be better than Commander Shepard.


    Spoiler
    Show
    Quote Originally Posted by Anuan View Post
    Cheesegear; Lovable Thesaurus ItP.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lycan 01 View Post
    Cheesegear, have I told you yet that you're awesome?
    Quote Originally Posted by MeatShield#236 View Post
    ALL HAIL LORD CHEESEGEAR! Cheese for the cheesegear!
    Quote Originally Posted by Shas'aia Toriia View Post
    Cheesegear is awesome

  26. - Top - End - #1286
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Forum Explorer's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Canada
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXIX: Miracle on 39th Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by druid91 View Post
    Have they said that CP will be reduced? If anything I feel like it would be increased overall.
    In a way. Here's what we know:

    1. There will be a universal pregame stratagem for Deep Striking.
    1.a) There may be more pregame stratagems such as taking additional warlord traits, or relics
    2. Detachments will cost CP
    3. Allies will cost CP
    3. a) This may be because each ally needs to be in it's own detachment.
    4. Everyone has the same starting pool of CP.
    5. There is now a command phase, where you generate CP, however much or however that is done.

    So while it's possible for there to be an excessive amount of CP, I'm inclined to think there will be a decline in CP, at least in terms of the first turn. Let's say there is 5 CP generated per round, and there is a round 0. And that CP can be saved between rounds.

    So round 0: You get 5 CP to spend on pregame stuff, no pregame stuff? Cool, then you get 10 CP turn 1.
    Round 1: You have somewhere between 5-10 CP. At it's max, 10, is more than a single Battalion. But most competitive armies are rocking at least a double battalion, for 13 CP.

    So yeah, you might end up with more CP throughout the game, but in the early turns you have less CP then you are used to, and might not have enough to sustain your current playstyle.
    Spoiler: I'm a writer!
    Show
    Spoiler: Check out my fanfiction[URL="https://www.fanfiction.net/u/7493788/Forum-Explorer"
    Show
    here[/URL]
    ]Fate Stay Nano: Fate Stay Night x Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha

    I Fell in Love with a Storm: MLP

    Procrastination: MLP



    Spoiler: Original Fiction
    Show
    The Lost Dragon: A story about a priest who finds a baby dragon in his church and decides to protect them.



  27. - Top - End - #1287
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Blackhawk748's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Tharggy, on Tellene
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXIX: Miracle on 39th Thread

    Also if it's 5 CP a turn (which is just a ballpark for us) then the 3CP Strats become an even riskier bet. Yes, some of them arevery, very good, but most of them are barely good enough to justify the cost right now. If they're competing with Rerolls and other cheap Strats for a pool of 5 I can see almost all of them being worthless.
    Quote Originally Posted by Guigarci View Post
    "Mr. Aochev, tear down this wall!" Ro'n Ad-Ri'Gan, Bard
    Tiefling Sorcerer by Linkele
    Spoiler: Homebrew stuff
    Show
    My Spell, My Weapon, Im a God

    My Post Apocalyptic Alternate Timeline setting: Amerhikan Wasteland


    My Historical Stuff channel

  28. - Top - End - #1288
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    LansXero's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Lima, Peru
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXIX: Miracle on 39th Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraunograf View Post
    We've been using the it ruins map and other prebuilt maps that seem to have big ruins in the middle on either side and then smattering of terrain around it, my understanding was that they are supposed to be pretty balanced maps for terrain?
    Yes and no. The thing is, if you set up a table then use random deployment after the fact, that tends to not work very well. You have to place terrain considering deployment zones and trying to cut a certain % of viable fire lines with LoS blocking terrain. Then, of that remaining "open" % you put crates, woods, etc. for additional annoyance (as in, a vehicle or knight can shoot through, infantry cant, so deploy accordingly). Finally, you use craters, trenches, etc. where you left the open firing lines, so there is a bit of "I dont auto-die if you do shoot at me" for SOME units. The goal is to have interesting choices during deployment and the movement phase.

    Once you're done with that, you place objectives in places where it will be good gameplay to go and take them. Player placed objectives are garbage and one of the reasons people feel terrain rules are pointless.

    Regarding early tabling... It seems very rock paper scissors? Orkz can't do anything to to the guard before getting murdered by flashlights, I can't do much to the orkz before they da jump squads in and charge from 9"(evil sunz seems to make this incredibly consistent), demons are great into the guard but against tougher or more mobile enemies have issues... Etc. It might also be that we're playing at 750 points while everyone is still new? It feels like alpha strikes would be more of an issue as you get more points rather than less.
    Orks can shell the crap out of guard with Mekgunz and Lootas, and the Vigilus Big Mek can blow up two tank commanders per turn. Flashlights arent even a factor, since guardsmen are just free kills when charged.

    What are your "wraith host allies"? You are DE, so why are you anywhere that you can ever be meleed? and if you absolutely must, why arent wraithblades taking the brunt of it? You have flying transports you can shoot from inside of, park them on high floors and laugh at things that need to get close; place a farseer in your allied detachment and Forewarned their stupid green faces into nothing with Wraithguard (or reapers, or whatever).

    Pure Daemons is in a weird place right now. CSM allies for daemon engines to run up the board and smash face could be a solution, or 1k sons for psychic spam.

    The point levels is iffy (why are you using wraith allies at 750 x__x); it is true that additional points bring in more firepower, but they also bring in redundancy and more leeway with force multipliers. The degeneracy of just frontloading firepower is kept in line by the detachment system and the "troop tax", which is sadly going away.

    Note: the player playing with a knight is waiting until 1250 to 1500 points to bring one, not bringing one at 750.
    I've killed a Warden in our 500 pts escalation league before. Wasnt easy, but it felt pretty cool. So did the SW player xD.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •