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  1. - Top - End - #271
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXIX: Miracle on 39th Thread

    It's a fair cop - although when I started in 2004/5 was right around the time that Codex: Cityfight had come out and included with it the first Sector Imperialis sets of terrain and objectives. Of course they were completely out of reach for a bunch of fifth graders, but we had the time and energy to make a bunch of ruins out of plasticard. Spray them with a bit of rough coat and they looked alright. Now when I feel that every hour spent hobbying is one hour not spent dissertating, I'm more willing to save time with some pre-built terrain.

    That said, I'm curious if anyone else has noticed their interests shift as they got older? When I started I was always hobby first, game second. I still love the hobby part of things but I've started to see it more as a means to an end - the joy I get from painting is from seeing an army on display on the battlefield rather than in my display case. I've got a lot more pleasure out of the game itself in recent years. Probably just a function of having greater tactical acumen as one gets older. It helps that I'm actually able to win the occasional game nowadays instead of just getting trounced by my older brother in our basement.

  2. - Top - End - #272
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXIX: Miracle on 39th Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Qui Ho Tep View Post
    It's a fair cop - although when I started in 2004/5 was right around the time that Codex: Cityfight had come out and included with it the first Sector Imperialis sets of terrain and objectives. Of course they were completely out of reach for a bunch of fifth graders, but we had the time and energy to make a bunch of ruins out of plasticard. Spray them with a bit of rough coat and they looked alright. Now when I feel that every hour spent hobbying is one hour not spent dissertating, I'm more willing to save time with some pre-built terrain.

    That said, I'm curious if anyone else has noticed their interests shift as they got older? When I started I was always hobby first, game second. I still love the hobby part of things but I've started to see it more as a means to an end - the joy I get from painting is from seeing an army on display on the battlefield rather than in my display case. I've got a lot more pleasure out of the game itself in recent years. Probably just a function of having greater tactical acumen as one gets older. It helps that I'm actually able to win the occasional game nowadays instead of just getting trounced by my older brother in our basement.
    Interestingly, Iím the exact opposite. When I was younger I didnít care for painting at all, as I wasnít any good at it. Iíd occasionally convert things, or make scenery, but most of my hobby thought went into the game, either working out lists or playing (though I often lost, which made me play less). Now though, Iím much more likely to spend time painting than playing, and am fortunate enough to have managed to paint multiple armies over the last few years, so by preference donít play with unpainted models.
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  3. - Top - End - #273
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXIX: Miracle on 39th Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Qui Ho Tep View Post
    That said, I'm curious if anyone else has noticed their interests shift as they got older?
    All of this is specific to me, and as such is 100% anecdotal. If it doesn't apply to you, then it doesn't:

    Time:
    Younger; Most of my time was spent studying, and extra-curricular sports, and a lot of stress, all the time. Basecoat, wash, done. Can I please play games with my friends, now? I even mention in the Thread OP, that if Conquest had been around when I was younger, I would've bought in immediately.
    Now; University - let alone high school - is in the far past (though I may start a Masters next year ), and I have a lot of extra time that I can spend painting. With streaming services, I've found that I can easily paint for a few hours every single night in front of the TV with my girlfriend. Or spam YouTube/Spotify if I'm alone. Hell, I've even turned my hobby into an ad hoc profession.

    Money:
    Younger; I would rely on my parents to buy things for me, and they would only buy certain things, and even then, not the expensive ones. This means that the models I had, were the models I was stuck with, whether they were good or not. Losing games over and over and over again with no ability to fix the problem, was miserable.
    Now; I can buy whatever I want (within reason). If my army has a problem, I can fix it. Having agency is fun. Given my ability to read, I'm also far less likely now to spend money on models that 'don't work'. Which means the only models that ever 'just sit on my shelf', I knew that would happen, before I bought them (e.g; Tor Garadon, and even then, I still heavily converted him to even want to put him on my shelf), which means that I'm less resentful towards Games Workshop...Until they nerf a model I thought was good that wasn't sitting on my shelf, and now it is...

    Relationships:
    Younger; For as much sports as I did when I was younger (...then I was hit by a car when I was 23), hiding the fact that I was actually a massive nerd was a priority. Playing with toy soldiers is absolutely something you can be made fun of for, and girls will think it's a joke, and what the **** are you even doing? Of course, helping my teammates with their studies was one thing, use the nerd you've got available to you, right? And the nerd even plays football, and I've seen him fight - and win - so he's at least a little bit cool. But toy soldiers? lol. Hiding what you like, from your peers, is pretty miserable.
    Now; Nobody gives a ****. In your own home, do whatever the **** you want. Are you good at your job? Great. Do your job. I'm pretty sure it's geographical, but in rural Australia, a lot of women around 30 years old don't give a **** what their man spends their money on, as long as it isn't booze. Being an adult male not slowly descending into alcoholism is apparently a fairly desirable trait. Playing with toy soldiers also isn't a hobby where you'll be tempted to cheat on your spouse (...that's what D&D and other roleplaying games are for...). So, for the time being, money isn't really an issue, so my girlfriend is happy with me buying toy soldiers - as long as the house isn't clogged with it, which it has been more than once.

    Social variability:
    Younger; Playing with the same three or four friends (if you're lucky) gets old, pretty fast. Especially when none of you have money, so what everyone has, is what they've got, and if someone's models are accidentally better than everyone else's...Tough ****. For me, personally, this was also tricky, since the friends I played toy soldiers with, were definitely not the same people that I played sports with, and it's really hard mixing two groups of friends that both hate each other.
    Now; Having access to a motorbike car, means I have access to way more opponents, and access to tournaments. Which means I have a massive variety of opponents of different Faction types and skill levels - and monetary levels. Which switches the game up and makes it different almost every time. Yeah. It does mean that there are one or two ****heads that you have to play once or twice before you never play them again (and one, personally infamous example, which I put a stop to using a method that most people disagree with, except, funnily enough, the people who were actually there). But, I will take the few 'bad apples' that I've played against, for the...30-50 other good players that I've regularly played with - and many, still play with - over the last ten years - not including opponents during tournaments.

    Reading Comprehension:
    Younger; I dunno. Sounds right? I think.
    Now; No. I was wrong. Also, you're cheating. That's not how the game is played. Games now, go much quicker than they used to because I remember rules a lot better than I used to, and I am very much able better to call out opponents when they do something wrong, too. A better understanding of the game, has very, very, very much increased my enjoyment of the game. Meanwhile, for others, the more they understand the game, the more they hate it.
    NB. I'm not going to be disingenuous, and say that 'Six pages of rules are easier to remember than ninety.' Because in 8th Ed., each unit has individual rules and abilities separate to every other units' rules and abilities. So there are still a whole bunch of rules you need to learn to play your army - and how to play against your opponents' armies - those rules, are just not in the rulebook anymore. The focus of the game is now on Battlescribe the Codecies, whilst the core rules of the game can be downloaded for free.

    Stop Playing Video Games (as much):
    Younger; I want a new console, I need a better PC, I need the Collector's Edition. I also need to spend five hours per night playing World of WarCraft. I just don't have time for hobby anymore.
    Now; My girlfriend made me. With all the friends I used to play online games with, having grown up, with spouses and even families of their own, not playing anymore, playing online games just isn't as fun as it used to be (i.e; everything is better with friends). Also, I feel like gaming 'culture' is very different from ten years ago. Whatever. Doesn't matter. Point is, by not wasting spending time playing video games, frees up money and time for the hobby I actually like. Because, turns out, all hobbies are expensive and time-consuming, and you don't really get to have more than like...Two. And my other hobby is always going to be exercise. I suppose time with my girlfriend is also important...
    NB. Regarding mental health (if that's an issue for you, like it was for me), playing games with someone physically, across the table from you, that you can shake hands with, and have a beer (singular, not plural) with after the game, is massively different to playing online games to intangible people on the other side of the world. Just like how having a conversation with a person in front of you is very different to making a forum post. I can very definitely credit not playing video games, and playing IRL games with real people, a massive improvement to my mental health - especially after the accident. "Oh hey, your hip is now a persistent injury. Would really suck if you can't really run and play team-sports with your friends anymore, despite the fact that exercise and team-sports has dramatically improved your life. You've been doing ju-jitsu for 12 years? Would really suck if you couldn't throw a kick or grapple/wrestle* anymore. You can't even skateboard either**."

    All of that being said, and that was a lot:
    I've said a number of times, that I don't know what would make me quit. But that I would know it when I saw it. I know what that is; It's Chapter Approved 2019 making ITC!Maelstrom the new normal way to play; Remove all Objectives from the deck, just play Kill Points. The only Faction still really playing Objectives, really, is Venom-spam Drukhari. I'll give it a few more months. But I'm not optimistic.

    *Boxing is still good. Though it does require leg- and footwork, and I wouldn't exactly call it easy, even nine years after...
    **One of my goals was to skateboard to 30 without any significant injuries. But hey, my significant injury wasn't caused by skating, so take that, parents!
    Last edited by Cheesegear; 2019-12-18 at 11:34 PM.
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  4. - Top - End - #274
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXIX: Miracle on 39th Thread

    I forget how Imgur works with just regular links here. Hopefully it'll work.

    http://imgur.com/a/bktMaUn

    My new Death Guard color scheme for the Mastadon I've mentioned, versus the old Thousand Sons one my friend had.

    I'm obviously not done, but I'm happy with how it's looking for 3 hours of work.

    Parts of it are obviously damaged, but that's the previous owner's fault. Got it for $100 in Magic cards, so I'm happy.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXIX: Miracle on 39th Thread

    I had a game with one of the new Chapter Approved missions last night. Eternal war, not malestrom. It was my close-combat T'au (stealth suits of all sizes plus a horde of breachers, etc) vs. some necrons.

    We tried out the new crusade mission, where there are 6 objectives, and you score at the start of your turn. I really like the progressive scoring, much better than malestrom. While malestrom can have some amusing bits, like a game last week where I pulled kill in melee and steal an objective, and ended up scoring them by yoloing my coldstar into a scout, I feel like the more predicable eternal war missions are more tactical--you can actually plan ahead.

    Even though I crushed him fairly badly (he did not have any of the good necron units, so could not really kill anything, or just massive overkilled with his full size units vs. msu Tau,) the game avoided the feel-bad of random malestromness. I.e. I was only getting one more point each turn, rather than the huge swings where people go 10-1 in two turns in malestrom, in my experience.

    The six objectives meant that you really had to go fight things out in the middle on the board, giving his meele units access to me (and my firepower access to him, ) so it felt like everyone could contribute. And the game would have been down to the wire, methinks, if he had not put one of the mid-field objectives right next to a line-of-sight blocking wall, where I was able to hide some breachers to control it, after he blasted the first squad off with his tesla immortals.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXIX: Miracle on 39th Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Yaktan View Post
    the game avoided the feel-bad of random malestromness. I.e. I was only getting one more point each turn, rather than the huge swings where people go 10-1 in two turns in malestrom, in my experience.
    I really don't understand how this happens once you understand how Maelstrom works(ed). You either:
    1. Are new to Maelstrom, and thus don't understand yet that the Movement phase (and thus, board control) is the most important phase in the game,
    2. Have very disproportionate lists, and it really doesn't matter what Mission you played because the winner was determined during list creation (e.g; What happened to me a few games ago vs. Land Raider Salamanders), or
    3. One of you is a Bad.

    Going 10-1 by Turn 2, in Maelstrom, is fairly crazy.
    ...Unless you're playing current Maelstrom, where every Objective you have, is an easy Objective. But then, your opponent is doing that too, right? ...So...10-8 - towards the player who went first, obviously.
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  7. - Top - End - #277
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXIX: Miracle on 39th Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    I really don't understand how this happens once you understand how Maelstrom works(ed). You either:
    1. Are new to Maelstrom, and thus don't understand yet that the Movement phase (and thus, board control) is the most important phase in the game,
    2. Have very disproportionate lists, and it really doesn't matter what Mission you played because the winner was determined during list creation (e.g; What happened to me a few games ago vs. Land Raider Salamanders), or
    3. One of you is a Bad.

    Going 10-1 by Turn 2, in Maelstrom, is fairly crazy.
    ...Unless you're playing current Maelstrom, where every Objective you have, is an easy Objective. But then, your opponent is doing that too, right? ...So...10-8 - towards the player who went first, obviously.
    No, the 10-1 stuff has happened to me before. It was something like this:

    Drew Harness the Warp, Ascendancy, and Defend Objective X (in their zone) (and gets 3 points for both D3 objectives)

    Their opponent gets Behind Enemy Lines, Secure X (a doable one), and Kingslayer

    Next turn the first guy gets Secure X, and Secure X2, and say, Assassinate, and achieves both secures.

    His opponent throws away Behind Enemy Lines but replaces it with King of the Hill (The enemy now has multiple units in the middle of the board), and gets an impossible Secure. He kept Kingslayer.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXIX: Miracle on 39th Thread

    In Maelstrom19 we've had both runaway successes (when the enemy gets crushed so bad their 'easy' objectives are still hard to achieve) and down to secondaries neck-to-neck races to turn 5.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXIX: Miracle on 39th Thread

    So, I picked up an Eldar army because I had exactly enough in my wallet, and it was too good of a deal to pass up ($200)

    What I've identified so far is

    40 Guardians
    20 Dire Avengers
    18 Swooping Hawks
    15 Wraithguard
    15 Warp Spiders
    12 Striking Scorpions
    12...Pewter Fire Dragons I think?
    10 Eldar Rangers
    6 Warlocks
    5 Howling Banshees (resin)
    5 Wraithblades
    3 Wave Serpents
    2 Fire Prisms
    2 Farseers
    2 Vypers
    1 Falcon
    1 Pewter Avatar of Khaine
    1 Prince Yriel
    1 Shadowseer

    Other than Yriel who I just recognized These are the things I can't identify. Would anybody help me?

    Edit: Recognized the Vypers too.
    Last edited by Mystic Muse; 2019-12-24 at 02:49 AM.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXIX: Miracle on 39th Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Mystic Muse View Post
    Other than Yriel who I just recognized These are the things I can't identify. Would anybody help me?
    From top to bottom: Vypers x2, Yriel (who you know), Warlock, Fire Dragon (not Exarch), can't quite identify the last slide, but I believe Fire Dragons - the one with the big gun kinda matches the Exarch pose, but the silhouette doesn't definitively match. It's awkward, because it's had a shuriken cannon swap, and nothing has those on foot, besides, like, Maugan Ra (Dark Reapers would have been my other guess, but the guns don't match).

    Edit: Ah ha! The last slide are old classic Dark Reaper minis! Best image I could find of them was this cool conversion gallery, but, they match up. Never seen any that old before, so, cool. Saw a new thing!
    Last edited by DataNinja; 2019-12-24 at 03:01 AM.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXIX: Miracle on 39th Thread

    That *is* an old Fire Dragon Exarch, made way back in 2nd edition. The weapon he is holding is a Firepike in one hand and a meltabomb in the other.

    Similarly, those are not *the* classic Dark Reapers, they're the 3rd edition version with rounded skull-shaped helmets. The original ones were cone shaped, with "wings" on either side and much more static poses. Not that it matters of course, they're still legal to use it I thought it might be useful trivia
    Last edited by Wraith; 2019-12-24 at 07:52 AM.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXIX: Miracle on 39th Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    That's what I'm told; Women play most commonly, in order; Craftworlds (of course)...
    Quote Originally Posted by Mystic Muse View Post
    Eldar is the one I don't have any appreciable amount of...
    Next minute...

    Quote Originally Posted by Mystic Muse View Post
    So, I picked up [~170 Craftworlds models...]
    ...Classic.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXIX: Miracle on 39th Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Wraith View Post
    That *is* an old Fire Dragon Exarch, made way back in 2nd edition. The weapon he is holding is a Firepike in one hand and a meltabomb in the other.

    Similarly, those are not *the* classic Dark Reapers, they're the 3rd edition version with rounded skull-shaped helmets. The original ones were cone shaped, with "wings" on either side and much more static poses. Not that it matters of course, they're still legal to use it I thought it might be useful trivia
    Ah, okay, oops, didn't look long enough to be a Firepike. But, should have probably done more double-checking after realizing that some of the models involved were older than I'd realized. I know I'm not the person with the models in question, but appreciate the trivia and clarification all the same.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXIX: Miracle on 39th Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    Next minute...



    ...Classic.
    Hey now, it was next week, and there are very few factions I wouldn't buy that amount of minis of for $200

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXIX: Miracle on 39th Thread

    Yeah, you could even split them and flip them for some profit, even as something you wouldnt play.

    That said, I find Eldar lore and artwork pretty amazing and they were pretty cool on Dawn of War; their rules are as mentioned pretty great most of the time, but... I cant stand how the older models look. I hate how Dark Reapers look ;w; and have suffered a lot to find proper stand-ins for the HQs. Guardians are fine, new sculpts are decent enough but anything old and/or metal... ugh.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXIX: Miracle on 39th Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by DataNinja View Post
    Ah, okay, oops, didn't look long enough to be a Firepike. But, should have probably done more double-checking after realizing that some of the models involved were older than I'd realized. I know I'm not the person with the models in question, but appreciate the trivia and clarification all the same.
    I beg your pardon - please imagine me having said that in a tone of "hey, this is cool, maybe you'd like to know?" rather than the "well AK-SHU-ALL-LY!" that I now realise it possibly comes off as!
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXIX: Miracle on 39th Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Wraith View Post
    I beg your pardon - please imagine me having said that in a tone of "hey, this is cool, maybe you'd like to know?" rather than the "well AK-SHU-ALL-LY!" that I now realise it possibly comes off as!
    Oh, no, no, I didn't read anything condescending or whatnot in your tone, it was mostly me being embarrassed at answering and not having the entirely correct answer. It's how misinformation spreads.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXIX: Miracle on 39th Thread

    Looks like Duncan is leaving GW at the end of the year.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXIX: Miracle on 39th Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalisj View Post
    Looks like Duncan is leaving GW at the end of the year.
    Man, renegade Knights must have really gotten to him.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXIX: Miracle on 39th Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalisj View Post
    Looks like Duncan is leaving GW at the end of the year.
    Who? The name is unfamiliar to me
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXIX: Miracle on 39th Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackhawk748 View Post
    Who? The name is unfamiliar to me
    The original guy who did the painting tutorials on Warhammer TV and some of the promotional stuff on Twitch.
    He's become less and less active as the years have gone on, as Peachy has come on board, and now there's this new dude who, for the life of me, I couldn't tell you his name.
    There was a lady for a bit - and I remember 'cause she did the Imperial Fists' tutorial, and I was like 'WRONG!'.

    Point is, Duncan is the original, so people like him. Peachy is more my style, though.

    There's also a new guy, playing 'James Workshop', who is doing his very best Matt Berry impersonation which I'm not really a fan of, 'cause what I really want is Matt Berry. But he's probably too expensive, so GW hired this dude, and said 'do Matt Berry'.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXIX: Miracle on 39th Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    There's also a new guy, playing 'James Workshop',
    ...okay, that got a chuckle out of me. I'm not always a fan of puns, but punny names tend to get to me. I tip my hat to you on that, GW.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXIX: Miracle on 39th Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    The original guy who did the painting tutorials on Warhammer TV and some of the promotional stuff on Twitch.
    He's become less and less active as the years have gone on, as Peachy has come on board, and now there's this new dude who, for the life of me, I couldn't tell you his name.
    There was a lady for a bit - and I remember 'cause she did the Imperial Fists' tutorial, and I was like 'WRONG!'.

    Point is, Duncan is the original, so people like him. Peachy is more my style, though.

    There's also a new guy, playing 'James Workshop', who is doing his very best Matt Berry impersonation which I'm not really a fan of, 'cause what I really want is Matt Berry. But he's probably too expensive, so GW hired this dude, and said 'do Matt Berry'.
    Duncan was great in how efortless and simple he made everything look. Not sure how he stacks up hobby-wise, but camera-wise the guy nailed it. And that voice... prrr

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXIX: Miracle on 39th Thread

    https://www.warhammer-community.com/...mepage-post-1/

    Grey Knights, Dark Angels, and Thousand Sons, oh my!

    Really sad this DA release isn't including The Lion, he was easily the best choice for the next Primarch given the lore imo.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXIX: Miracle on 39th Thread

    I called it!

    Newest rumours are regarding the next book - The Greater Good is Tau (of course) and "boots on the ground", which presumably means Imperial Guard. Good times.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXIX: Miracle on 39th Thread

    Happy to see the Grey Knights get some, if only because I have lots of empathy for those who've been waiting since 8th dropped for some love. I suppose Necron's will be updated in number five? Not too eager about the The Greater Good given that I don't think Astra Militarum really need much more but I suppose Tau-Friend will be happy about it. Likewise sad to hear about Duncan.

    My brother got me a Leviathan dreadnought for Christmas but left the arm options up for me. Got me thinking about hte possibility of a Chaos gunline, with double-butcher cannon arrays. I've got a Dakka-filer and Forgefiend, both of which combined with a Disco Lord end up putting out a decent amount of pain. I think running a Leviathan with a Helwright might give some further fire support. Thoughts and feelings? I think I'd rather not stock up on Havocs but it might help to disperse the firepower among different bodies.

    I suppose one thing I've been struggling with this edition is in general the ratio of high-firepower to heavy infantry to screens. Thoughts and feelings?

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXIX: Miracle on 39th Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Qui Ho Tep View Post
    I suppose one thing I've been struggling with this edition is in general the ratio of high-firepower to heavy infantry to screens.
    Shots per point (and, ultimately, Damage-per-point, which depends on the target), is the (?) single-most important factors in the game when regarding any model. Now, in case you didn't read that sentence correctly, it's not the only factor, but, it is arguably the most important one. This is why Math-hammer has rocketed in popularity, and why the internet is able to mark certain units with a black 'X' and never look back. In 8th Ed., math-hammer is the most reliable its ever been because of how to wound, and AP works - and how Cover doesn't work - unlike how those rules worked in every other edition.

    'Heavy Infantry' is mostly a meaningless term, especially when compared next to 'screens'. You're going to have to explain what you mean by that?

    Daemon armies, often contain 120 Troops models (usually Plaguebearers [at least]). Ork armies, often contain 90 Gretchin (at least).
    Are those 'screens', or are they simply 'the army'? Anything is a screen, if you want it to be. If it prevents your opponent from Charging the unit behind it, or if it protects a Character from being shot at, it's a screen. Anything is a screen. Even Blightlord Terminators, which are a really good 'screen', which I think most people would also call 'Heavy Infantry'. If your opponent is unlikely to Charge you (e.g; T'au, Necrons, etc.), then you don't need 'screens' at all, except to protect your Characters. For Space Marines, a 'screen' might be literally anything with Concealed Positions that can seize board control, and prevent your opponent from setting up anywhere around the board. In that case, Space Marines can run 30 Scouts and 'screen' the entire board, doing with 30 models, what Daemons do with 100.

    As far as ratios go...Of course you're struggling with it, 'cause what you need is going to change every single game, and sometimes, in the middle of game. The best you can hope for, is that the units you buy - or take - can perform well against any opponent. They don't have to be the best unit in the Codex, they just have to not directly contribute to you losing in a particular match-up. This is why it's important to consider Damage-per-point, because rate-of-fire alone isn't a reliable metric because what your model(s) shoot at, changes pretty much every single turn. Especially if your opponent has units with Ignore Wounds.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXIX: Miracle on 39th Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    'Heavy Infantry' is mostly a meaningless term, especially when compared next to 'screens'. You're going to have to explain what you mean by that?

    Daemon armies, often contain 120 Troops models (usually Plaguebearers [at least]). Ork armies, often contain 90 Gretchin (at least).
    Are those 'screens', or are they simply 'the army'? Anything is a screen, if you want it to be. If it prevents your opponent from Charging the unit behind it, or if it protects a Character from being shot at, it's a screen. Anything is a screen. Even Blightlord Terminators, which are a really good 'screen', which I think most people would also call 'Heavy Infantry'. If your opponent is unlikely to Charge you (e.g; T'au, Necrons, etc.), then you don't need 'screens' at all, except to protect your Characters. For Space Marines, a 'screen' might be literally anything with Concealed Positions that can seize board control, and prevent your opponent from setting up anywhere around the board. In that case, Space Marines can run 30 Scouts and 'screen' the entire board, doing with 30 models, what Daemons do with 100.
    Thanks for your response. Consider that I'm a hygienic casual that has been out of the game for about eight years and suddenly finds himself thrust into the very competitive southern Californian meta. When I was twelve I never realized that you could arm all your terminators the same way, because they each came with a different gun, and I couldn't fathom any advantage in converting them. So I've got a lot that I need to update about my mode of thinking. Part of that is language -

    to clarify, I suppose I had five divisions of units: screen/light infantry, heavy infantry, light vehicle, heavy vehicle, and support characters. The ideal list would be some combination of the five in a flexible ratio that protected your good stuff with bad stuff. But "screen" is more a functional description rather than an inherent quality to a unit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    As far as ratios go...Of course you're struggling with it, 'cause what you need is going to change every single game, and sometimes, in the middle of game. The best you can hope for, is that the units you buy - or take - can perform well against any opponent. They don't have to be the best unit in the Codex, they just have to not directly contribute to you losing in a particular match-up. This is why it's important to consider Damage-per-point, because rate-of-fire alone isn't a reliable metric because what your model(s) shoot at, changes pretty much every single turn. Especially if your opponent has units with Ignore Wounds.
    I think a big barrier is that I have this idea that once I get my list set it will be set and be able to take all comers - but as my collection expands, I see lots of possible combinations and, well, what's obvious to everyone else is news to my teenage wargaming brain. The part of my psyche in which I keep my youthful thoughts and feelings has been left in charge of table top gaming and hobby, and it seems that he is no longer up to the task. Yet any part of my adult psyche that I allocate to gaming feels like energy and brainpower that should be spent dissertating... but that's why it's a hobby, eh? It's an escape and release. Grad school is an odd head-space to be in. I dreamt last night that I had to fly directly to my field site and arrived three months early, completely unprepared.
    ,
    I suppose a more constructive question would be: "If I'm going up against a vehicle heavy list, and I'm invested in flamer-bikers as clearing out infantry screens, what would be a better source of anti-tank firepower: a Lord Discordant with some Daemon Engine friends, or a few units of Havocs? Having received a double-butcher Leviathan, which doesn't synergize well with the Discordant, ought I to go for the Havoc route?"

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXIX: Miracle on 39th Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Qui Ho Tep View Post
    to clarify, I suppose I had five divisions of units: screen/light infantry, heavy infantry, light vehicle, heavy vehicle, and support characters.
    Unfortunately, none of that means anything, because none of those of terms have been defined - not even by you. You just listed every single term you're talking about...And then didn't even explain any of them.

    For example, in 5th Ed., it was common for people to talking about GEq and MEq units. Guard Equivalent, and Marine Equivalent. Those terms have dramatically fallen out of favour as the meta has got larger and larger, and focusing on your ability to destroy two units is now a fool's errand, because the game no longer functions around Tactical Marines and Guardsmen like it did in 5th Ed. Any decent Math-hammer table at this point is looking at at least 10 different units.

    The ideal list would be some combination of the five in a flexible ratio that protected your good stuff with bad stuff.
    Except there are only two situations where 'protection' matters:
    Prevent your opponent from Charging - which isn't even that important. Because if your opponent is serious about Melee, they'll just roll straight through your 'screen' and consolidate into the unit behind it.
    Prevent your opponent from shooting your Characters - except that most people build their lists at this point with the ability to bypass 'screens', and just kill Characters anyway.

    The rules where you have to shoot the closest unit, are far in the distant past. If your opponent wants to kill your units in the back of your DZ, they will. Screens don't matter, except for Characters. And a 'screen' is simply anything that doesn't die. Whether that's a 20 model T3 garbage unit, or a 5-model unit with T5, with a 5+ Invulnerable, Ignore Wounds (5+) and two Wounds each. If it doesn't die, it's a screen in 8th Ed.

    The ideal list has:
    Units that can hold Objectives.
    Units that can take Objectives.
    Units that can prevent your opponent from holding Objectives (i.e; Firepower).

    However you want to do that, is up to you.

    I think a big barrier is that I have this idea that once I get my list set it will be set and be able to take all comers...
    That's not really possible at this point. Build to your meta, not to the meta in your head.

    "If I'm going up against a vehicle heavy list, and I'm invested in flamer-bikers as clearing out infantry screens, what would be a better source of anti-tank firepower: a Lord Discordant with some Daemon Engine friends, or a few units of Havocs? Having received a double-butcher Leviathan, which doesn't synergize well with the Discordant, ought I to go for the Havoc route?"
    That's a really good question.
    Unfortunately - and I think I told you before - I can't answer questions about Chaos Marines with good faith, 'cause I don't know enough about them since their new Codex came out.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXIX: Miracle on 39th Thread

    Hey, no stress then, I appreciate your input in other respects!

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