Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXIX: Miracle on 39th Thread

[Cheesegear]

New Year's Resolution; Learn New Chaos Books.

Hey, no stress then...

Lord Discordants don't help Forgefiends like you think they do. Lord Discordants are for when you want to spam Maulerfiends and Heldrakes.

Forgefiends, starting at BS4, and carrying Heavy weapons, means that they're total garbage if they start moving - which the Lord Discordant, absolutely wants to do. This means that Forgefiends don't really get buffed by Lord Discordants. And, if they are, you're playing your Lord Discordant - or your Forgefiend(s) - wrong.

Forgefiends, unsurprisingly, are buffed by Masters of Possession. Both Cursed Earth and Infernal Power are Auras, which means the more Forgefiends you have, the better they are. Daemonforge is one of the best Stratagems in the book, and it's only 1CP. Baller.

Havocs are a general use unit that you can just slot into your army without thinking too hard:

[Missile Launcher, Lascannons (x2), Reaper Chaincannon] is a good TAC loadout if you're unsure about your meta. Mostly because in order to make it work, you only need one Chaincannon, which is all the box comes with. That being said, because of its generalist nature, ~50% of the time it wont do anything noteworthy.

[Reaper Chaincannons (x4)] is by far the best loadout. But obviously you'll need money to make it work. Either by buying parts wholesale, or finding bits to make conversions out of. Be aware that because this unit churns out ~35 shots (70 with <Slaanesh>), this 5-man unit has a huge target on its face whenever your opponent sees them. Which means that you will need a second- or third unit of Havocs, which means finding the currency to field 12 Chaincannons, which isn't exactly easy, even if you are cheaping out by using custom bits and conversions.

[Lascannons (x4)] is the loadout you run when you think you've got the ability to kill <T6 models covered. Hyper-specialising your Havocs this way leads to disaster when you play an opponent that spams Infantry (like most armies should be doing these days, unless you're in a meta that uses turn timers). The meta is S5, AP-1, with as many shots as you can put out. In the Chaos book, that means Chaincannons.

Obviously, you can stack Zealotry and Psychic Powers onto them. But you don't need to. You can stack Zealotry and Powers onto any unit you want.

But, the Master of Possession throws out Auras, and that can make a world of difference when you start running more than one Forgefiend. Wheras Havocs get worse, the more you have of them, because you can only throw Veterans of the Long War onto one unit at a time. Endless Cacophony is also 2CPs, and that adds up. Especially if you want to do literally anything else with your army.

TL;DR
Forgefiends hit really hard if you set up the combo and have 2-3 of them. If the combo breaks (because your opponent can target <Characters> and doesn't even need LoS to do so...But there's no way that GW would make a unit so broken, and if they did, surely they wouldn't be cheap...Right?) they suck.
Havocs aren't as good. But they're reliable. Which is a quality all to itself.

[Vizzerdrix]

Maybe y'all can help. A couple of friends have been asking me to get into this. I caved and agreed. After looking at a bunch of minis I've decided to get some of the monster looking dudes (terronids? tyranids?). So what books am I gonna need to get? Honestly I haven't looked. I don't even know where to star looking.

[Blackhawk748]

Maybe y'all can help. A couple of friends have been asking me to get into this. I caved and agreed. After looking at a bunch of minis I've decided to get some of the monster looking dudes (terronids? tyranids?). So what books am I gonna need to get? Honestly I haven't looked. I don't even know where to star looking.

Base book, Tyranid Codex, and the latest Chapter Approved

[bluntpencil]

Maybe y'all can help. A couple of friends have been asking me to get into this. I caved and agreed. After looking at a bunch of minis I've decided to get some of the monster looking dudes (terronids? tyranids?). So what books am I gonna need to get? Honestly I haven't looked. I don't even know where to star looking.

I'd recommend borrowing friends' minis before making any purchase decisions. You might not enjoy playing certain forces, wasting a lot of money.

[Cheesegear]

So what books am I gonna need to get? Honestly I haven't looked. I don't even know where to star looking.

Read through the OP of this thread...

1. Download the Core Rules from GW's website for free.
2. On an electronic device, download Battlescribe free... Be aware that if you're in a Warhammer/GW store, the Blackshirt will immediately hate you. If you're in an FLGS, you'll be fine.
3. Buy your Faction's Datacards.
4. Buy the Open War cards.*

...That is the barest minimum amount of rules you need to play properly, IMO. You'll be able to play just fine for several months with just those four things. However, if you're being drawn in by friends, chances are that they're way ahead of you, and you'll need to catch up pretty quickly.
* If you are going to pick up the Rulebook and/or Chapter Approved '19 relatively immediately, you will not need Open War cards.

5. If/When Battlescribe becomes a pain in the arse - and it will, especially for your opponents, not you - buy your Faction's Codex. By this point of the edition's cycle, the points costs in the back are almost completely irrelevant. Use Battlescribe for points costs, but the Codex for everything else.

6. The Rulebook**. However, be aware that the only useful thing in the Rulebook anymore, is the Force Organisation Charts. I'm sure you could easily find the FOCs somewhere on the internet.

7. If you decide that you do, in fact, give a **** about the game, pick up Chapter Approved 2019.

8. The Psychic Awakening for your Faction - if available.

** I strongly believe that the Rulebook is barely worth the paper it's printed on, at this point, and it wasn't even worth that much, to begin with.

[Don Qui Ho Tep]

New Year's Resolution; Learn New Chaos Books.



Lord Discordants don't help Forgefiends like you think they do. Lord Discordants are for when you want to spam Maulerfiends and Heldrakes.

Forgefiends, starting at BS4, and carrying Heavy weapons, means that they're total garbage if they start moving - which the Lord Discordant, absolutely wants to do. This means that Forgefiends don't really get buffed by Lord Discordants. And, if they are, you're playing your Lord Discordant - or your Forgefiend(s) - wrong.

Forgefiends, unsurprisingly, are buffed by Masters of Possession. Both Cursed Earth and Infernal Power are Auras, which means the more Forgefiends you have, the better they are. Daemonforge is one of the best Stratagems in the book, and it's only 1CP. Baller.

A fair point - definitely for my Forgefiends to be useful I need to pop off the Daemonforge stratagem. What I've been doing is I start my Lord Discordant with the Defiler and the Forgefiend. They keep moving in a bubble together until the Forgefiend is out of the aura range. Then I usually leave it stationary and shoot without penalty. The Defiler usually comes with the Lord Discordant given that it is pretty okay in combat.

My MoP is definitely MvP. I load it with Infernal Power and Sacrifice and have him come with the Daemon Engine parade. usually helping out the Venomcrawler and the Greater Possessed. Because Greater Possessed can perform a Heroic Intervention they come in useful whenever one of the Engines gets charged.

I usually have the Discordant with the Baleflamer and the Forgefiend with the autocannons. When I run two Discordants the opponent usually splits fire on each and they're able to stay alive, especially with Delightful Agonies and/or the Black Legion Warlord Trait that gives an extra wound and Feel no Pain.

Havocs are a general use unit that you can just slot into your army without thinking too hard:

[Missile Launcher, Lascannons (x2), Reaper Chaincannon] is a good TAC loadout if you're unsure about your meta. Mostly because in order to make it work, you only need one Chaincannon, which is all the box comes with. That being said, because of its generalist nature, ~50% of the time it wont do anything noteworthy.

[Reaper Chaincannons (x4)] is by far the best loadout. But obviously you'll need money to make it work. Either by buying parts wholesale, or finding bits to make conversions out of. Be aware that because this unit churns out ~35 shots (70 with <Slaanesh>), this 5-man unit has a huge target on its face whenever your opponent sees them. Which means that you will need a second- or third unit of Havocs, which means finding the currency to field 12 Chaincannons, which isn't exactly easy, even if you are cheaping out by using custom bits and conversions.

[Lascannons (x4)] is the loadout you run when you think you've got the ability to kill <T6 models covered. Hyper-specialising your Havocs this way leads to disaster when you play an opponent that spams Infantry (like most armies should be doing these days, unless you're in a meta that uses turn timers). The meta is S5, AP-1, with as many shots as you can put out. In the Chaos book, that means Chaincannons.

Obviously, you can stack Zealotry and Psychic Powers onto them. But you don't need to. You can stack Zealotry and Powers onto any unit you want.

But, the Master of Possession throws out Auras, and that can make a world of difference when you start running more than one Forgefiend. Wheras Havocs get worse, the more you have of them, because you can only throw Veterans of the Long War onto one unit at a time. Endless Cacophony is also 2CPs, and that adds up. Especially if you want to do literally anything else with your army.

Right now I have two RCC that I made myself, two lascannons, a missile launcher, one or two heavy bolters. There's a few different combinations of load-outs I could make with that. Usually the RCC go with the regular CSM squads, but I'm leaning towards going back to loading up on Cultists for troops. So the RCC goes back to the Havocs. Maybe plug them into a Dreadclaw to let them get into position?

[Don Qui Ho Tep]

Maybe y'all can help. A couple of friends have been asking me to get into this. I caved and agreed. After looking at a bunch of minis I've decided to get some of the monster looking dudes (terronids? tyranids?). So what books am I gonna need to get? Honestly I haven't looked. I don't even know where to star looking.

I started with Tyranids way back when with the Battle for Maccrage. Any and all advice I could give would be very outdated. They were a fun but challenging army, and I think colored my perception of the game for a bit. A caveat is that you'd be in for a lot of painting, so I hope that the hobby is a big appeal for the hobby! It would be a good way to learn how to assembly-line paint, which is a valuable skill.

What everyone else has said, whatever combination of rules, codex, battlescribe, pdfs with which you are comfortable. The main rulebook does have a great deal of lore and really good art but you'd be just as well getting the lore online. If you haven't done any research, I'd say start reading Lexicanum and checking out DakkaDakka for contemporary army builds that would give you a realistic idea of what kind of monetary investment you're looking at.

[Vizzerdrix]

Sweet. Thank you all for the advice and help. I have a few months before I buy anything yet, but I am looking forward to the painting and building. Especially the genestealers. I have some plans for those.

[LansXero]

So, thanks to holidays I got my Farseer on bike painted. I'd love to get your opinions on the color scheme; the model is a kitbash as well, so it'd be nice to hear what you think of it.

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[Requizen]

A friend of mine is interested in jumping into Warhammer hobby and says he wants to start with skirmish-level games. I know a lot about Underworlds and Warcry, but I've been out of the Kill Team loop for a while. Anyone played with the new Sisters of Battle KT? What factions are good atm?

[Wraith]

I haven't played with or against Sisters, but as far as I am aware they have entered the meta without making any kind of ripple at all - they're just people in power armour with Boltguns and don't really have much going for them. As in 40k - they're not horrible, but they're just not.... great. A completely safe and otherwise unremarkable addition to the game.

Otherwise, the tiers haven't really changed much. Any faction that can put a lot of models on the board is generally better than those who can't; Genestealer Cultists and the different flavours of Chaos (Heretic Astartes, Deathguard, Thousand Sons) tend to be favourites because they can flood the board with cheap cultists while their specialists pick and choose their battles as required.

Mechanicus tend to be glass cannons who favour shooting, as do the Tau, but they both have their gimmicks that make them work so long as you're aware of that.
The only real losers are Necrons - who are written badly - and Grey Knights - who aren't bad per say however they are very expensive units, and their Psychic Powers and extra abilities really don't make up for usually being outnumbered 2-to-1. Everyone else is pretty much okay, provided you read through your rules carefully and pick out the obviously superior equipment choices.

[Don Qui Ho Tep]

So, thanks to holidays I got my Farseer on bike painted. I'd love to get your opinions on the color scheme; the model is a kitbash as well, so it'd be nice to hear what you think of it.

Spoiler: Images

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I quite like it! Is the Farseer herself a GW model? The color on the jetbike itself is nice and smooth. Good clean lines of color. Wot paints did you use?

[Wraith]

New stuff revealed for the upcoming Greater Good supplement to Psychic Awakening/40k in general.

New Commander Shadowsun (Because it's Tau, natch)

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And coming out at approximately the same time is the Sororitas Mortifer - a 'shooty' variant of the Penitent Engine.

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The latter image shows Sororitas, Ogors and Tau deliberately split apart from each other, so it appears to be a "this is the stuff we're bringing out next" rather than specifically saying that The Greater Good will be Sororitas Vs. Tau.... Which is probably for the best. I personally would go absolutely ape-**** if I bought a new codex for my new army, only for a new supplement with newer, updated rules came out literally a week afterwards....

Note that the latter image of Shadowsun has a Genestealer cropped from the top of the frame. Tau vs GSC in The Greater Good? Makes sense, one would hope that at least one faction in a book under the heading PSYCHIC AWAKENING should actually... y'know... be psychic....

[LansXero]

I quite like it! Is the Farseer herself a GW model? The color on the jetbike itself is nice and smooth. Good clean lines of color. Wot paints did you use?

P3 Arcane Blue and P3 Radiant Platinum for the bike. Arcane Blue will be main color of the army. Bike is a windrider, girl on top is from WarmaHordes.

Will likely do the same for an Autarch on Bike conversion with another of the WMH cavalry casters.

[Cheesegear]

So, thanks to holidays I got my Farseer on bike painted. I'd love to get your opinions on the color scheme; the model is a kitbash as well, so it'd be nice to hear what you think of it.

I'm not a fan of the spear. The rest of the model looks great. It's always good when a Craftworlds' player actually bothers painting gems. I don't like the grey/blue flaps on the back of the 'Bike. I would've used red or yellow. Orange would work the best. But, I hate orange, so even though science says that orange and blue go together, I reject science, 'cause that's how much I hate orange.

A friend of mine is interested in jumping into Warhammer hobby and says he wants to start with skirmish-level games. I know a lot about Underworlds and Warcry, but I've been out of the Kill Team loop for a while. Anyone played with the new Sisters of Battle KT? What factions are good atm?

Obligatory:
Do you play ITC?
Are you using Elites?
Are you playing Arena or Open?

New stuff revealed for the upcoming Greater Good supplement to Psychic Awakening/40k in general...

Shadowsun looks rad.

rather than specifically saying that The Greater Good will be Sororitas Vs. Tau

Shadowsun vs. Celestine? Two female characters legitimately trying to kill each other? I'd read it.

[Wraith]

Shadowsun vs. Celestine? Two female characters legitimately trying to kill each other? I'd read it.

As a novel, it'd be great and I want it.

As an expansion of new rules, coming out days after SoB players had just paid for their new Codex, it would be outrageous in a way that would result in Jervis Johnson getting his house burned down.

[Ninjaman]

Rules question:

How does the Tyranids Strategem Digestive Denial interact with the Raven Guard chapter trait Shadow Masters?

If a unit of Raven Guard are in cover and 12" away from a firing tyranids model, do they:
Have +1 to their armour save and are -1 to hit.
Have +1 to their armour save.
Are -1 to hit.
Receive no bonuses.


Rules as written I get that they are -1 to hit but have no bonus to their armour save, but I would love to get more input.

Rules as intended I think it makes sense that the abilities cancel out and the Raven Guard keep their +1 to saves, but aren't -1 to hit, but I don't see RAW getting to this.

Rules wordings:
Digestive Denial:
Use this Stratagem after deployment but before the first battle round begins. Choose a piece of terrain (other than a Fortification). Units fully within or on this piece of terrain do not gain any bonus to their saving throws for being in cover.

Shadow Masters:
When resolving an attack made with a ranged weapon against a unit with this tactic by a model that is more than 12" away, that unit is treated as having the benefit of cover to its saving throw, and if that unit is not a VEHICLE and is entirely on or within a terrain feature, subtract 1 from the hit roll.


Related, how do the two abilities work with barricades, since they both refer to being on or within terrain?

[Blackhawk748]

They wouldn't get the +1 to their Armor from Cover but still get their -1, because that modifies To Hit not Armor

[Wraith]

More Sororitas stuff announced via Warhammer Community.

Zephyrim are in the promo video very briefly, around the 00:11 seconds mark - they're Seraphym armed with Plasma Pistols, Hand-flamers and Melta-pistols.

Retributors looks pretty much like they always have:

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Arco-flagellants now come in units of ~10+. That's really interesting - if they're costed similar to Tzaangors or Chaos Cultists and have any kind of support for that style of play in their strategems, Horde-SoB would really give the Faction a boost:

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Penitent Engines and Mortifers look like they're a single multi-build kit, hopefully magnetization is a possibility;

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New terrain piece, the Battle Sanctum. Very impressive looking kit, but if it's not a Skyshield then frankly I don't think many people are going to be interested in it.

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[LansXero]

I'm not a fan of the spear. The rest of the model looks great. It's always good when a Craftworlds' player actually bothers painting gems. I don't like the grey/blue flaps on the back of the 'Bike. I would've used red or yellow. Orange would work the best. But, I hate orange, so even though science says that orange and blue go together, I reject science, 'cause that's how much I hate orange.

Yeah, the spear is greenstuff, so its probably not the best. Original girl model had a sword; I wouldnt've minded keeping it (we're not big on WYSIWYG here) but I lost her hand and the sword xD. Adding yellow bits here and there could work. I wish I could get more definition on her face / hair.

[Destro_Yersul]

Yeah, the spear is greenstuff, so its probably not the best. Original girl model had a sword; I wouldnt've minded keeping it (we're not big on WYSIWYG here) but I lost her hand and the sword xD. Adding yellow bits here and there could work. I wish I could get more definition on her face / hair.

Yeah, the spear is a bit weak. If you had a spare Eldar spear or sword kicking around from somewhere, I'd use that instead. At least for the blade. For definition, could try some stronger highlights and shading to increase contrast, but depending on how much detail is on the sculpt, that could be difficult.

[Don Qui Ho Tep]

As a novel, it'd be great and I want it.

As an expansion of new rules, coming out days after SoB players had just paid for their new Codex, it would be outrageous in a way that would result in Jervis Johnson getting his house burned down.

You'd be in your rights to - I was pretty frustrated that Faith and Fury came out so soon after Vigilus Ablaze.

[Avaris]

You'd be in your rights to - I was pretty frustrated that Faith and Fury came out so soon after Vigilus Ablaze.

What do we think is the optimum length of time between releases for a faction? I fully agree that Sisters getting something in a Psychic Awakening book a month or two after release would be frustrating, but VA to F&F felt better (8 months I think?). And we all know that if it takes too long players will be unhappy about not getting any support.

(The actual answer is that they should change their release model so as to have rules available on an app, either free or cheap subscription based, so it doesn’t matter how often they come out)

[Blackhawk748]

What do we think is the optimum length of time between releases for a faction? I fully agree that Sisters getting something in a Psychic Awakening book a month or two after release would be frustrating, but VA to F&F felt better (8 months I think?). And we all know that if it takes too long players will be unhappy about not getting any support.

(The actual answer is that they should change their release model so as to have rules available on an app, either free or cheap subscription based, so it doesn’t matter how often they come out)

Once a year is fine. I have no complaints about buying Clash of Kings every year and that has rules for every faction in KoW. However its half the price of Chapter Approved and has fairly large changes in it beyond just points changes, so that may be why.

[Requizen]

Obligatory:
Do you play ITC?
Are you using Elites?
Are you playing Arena or Open?

I'm going to push him to play Arena, but probably just regular Matched on whatever tables at first. Elites included, but probably not Commander.

I didn't even know ITC did Kill Team stuff. Do they have a "suggested ruleset" like they do for 40k/AoS or is it just for meta purposes?

[Don Qui Ho Tep]

Re: release schedules, I was being a bit facetious about Faith and Fury, but yes, eight months feels like a very short amount of time. If I was playing every weekend or several times a week I might be more eager for support ~ and although I'm not complaining that Chaos is getting lots of fun stuff, plenty of factions have been waiting for a while. I like the idea of a once-a-year supplement, but Chapter Approved seems to be pretty weak. An annual campaign with new missions that rebalances point values would be fun, or to do so in the free FAQs. I was very happy with the narrative in Vigilus Ablaze, even though I was a little salty that Abaddon bounced when he had Marneus on the ropes, but Faith and Fury had all of fifteen pages of lore, had no conclusion, little art that I had not seen before and seems to have absolutely no tie-in with the narratives from the other Psychic Awakening books - as far as I can tell it's just to fill in the two-hundred years of the Indomnitus Crusade, but that is not how it was advertised. Regular campaign supplements would be very very welcome but it seems that there's no overarching plan to ensure that either the narrative or the rules are packaged in a coherent way.

This has all been said before by other people, I'm sure. I do like the suggested digital model that auto-updates, even though I love to have physical copies of art and lore, which does give me joy to revisit. I believe that was tried with Warmachine, to mixed results? Does anyone have more details on that?

[Renegade Paladin]

They wouldn't get the +1 to their Armor from Cover but still get their -1, because that modifies To Hit not Armor

They get the benefit of cover if they're more than 12" away regardless of whether or not they're actually in cover, though. Negating the terrain's benefit doesn't remove the chapter trait's. They would, of course, not gain the benefit of cover if the firing unit got within 12".

[IthilanorStPete]

Hey everyone! I had a passing interest in 40k around 5th ed.; a friend of mine actually had the models, I just read the codexes, theorycrafted lists, and occasionally played with proxied units. Now I'm looking back into the hobby, reading up on it, and contemplating getting into it. I've got access to the indexes (and BattleScribe), so that's what I've been looking at to compare armies and potentially decide which one to get. My thoughts so far:

• Death Guard - I loved Plague Marines using the 4th ed. codex, but I don't know if I could stomach their actual aesthetic.
• Craftworld Eldar - I dig their looks, I like the look of the various Elite units they have.
• Blood Angels - probably my preference for loyalist Space Marines. I liked how they played in 5th ed., don't know how much that translates to how they play these days.
• Imperial Guard/Astra Militarum - love me some tanks. I don't really care for the modern military aesthetic, but that's potentially solvable by using a different color scheme?
• Tau - did I mention I like tanks? Not sure how I feel about the mecha look, though.

Also, I've got a question about Space Marines - would it be better to go for an all-Primaris list, since that's the way GW seems to be going moving forward? Or is it still reasonable to buy older-style Marines?

[Forum Explorer]

Hey everyone! I had a passing interest in 40k around 5th ed.; a friend of mine actually had the models, I just read the codexes, theorycrafted lists, and occasionally played with proxied units. Now I'm looking back into the hobby, reading up on it, and contemplating getting into it. I've got access to the indexes (and BattleScribe), so that's what I've been looking at to compare armies and potentially decide which one to get. My thoughts so far:

• Death Guard - I loved Plague Marines using the 4th ed. codex, but I don't know if I could stomach their actual aesthetic.
• Craftworld Eldar - I dig their looks, I like the look of the various Elite units they have.
• Blood Angels - probably my preference for loyalist Space Marines. I liked how they played in 5th ed., don't know how much that translates to how they play these days.
• Imperial Guard/Astra Militarum - love me some tanks. I don't really care for the modern military aesthetic, but that's potentially solvable by using a different color scheme?
• Tau - did I mention I like tanks? Not sure how I feel about the mecha look, though.

Also, I've got a question about Space Marines - would it be better to go for an all-Primaris list, since that's the way GW seems to be going moving forward? Or is it still reasonable to buy older-style Marines?

Well it looks like aesthetically, the only ones you really like are Eldar and Blood Angels. What do you think about their fluff?

Eldar tends to be a solid choice though. It's hard to make a weak Eldar army, and they have reliably been good for multiple editions now. They can also play multiple different styles, as they aren't forced to be melee or ranged. They can even play a durable army game if you go Wraith units.

Blood Angels are a very good melee choice. Baal Predators don't really do that much anymore, so I don't know if that was something that appealed to you. But blobs of Death Company work really well, and they've got some really deadly characters. Death Company are (much) better than Sanguinary Guard, but I'm not sure if Sanguinary Guard are actually bad. Blood Angels are one of the few Space Marine armies that don't actually need a bunch of Primaris stuff if you don't want it. Generally, Primaris Marines are good at shooting but only mediocre at close combat.

But the key thing is that you don't want any Tactical Marines.

[IthilanorStPete]

Well it looks like aesthetically, the only ones you really like are Eldar and Blood Angels. What do you think about their fluff?

Yeah, those are the two I'm tending towards. Fluff-wise...slight preference towards Eldar, though honestly it doesn't matter much to me.

Eldar tends to be a solid choice though. It's hard to make a weak Eldar army, and they have reliably been good for multiple editions now. They can also play multiple different styles, as they aren't forced to be melee or ranged. They can even play a durable army game if you go Wraith units.

Good to hear!

Blood Angels are a very good melee choice. Baal Predators don't really do that much anymore, so I don't know if that was something that appealed to you. But blobs of Death Company work really well, and they've got some really deadly characters. Death Company are (much) better than Sanguinary Guard, but I'm not sure if Sanguinary Guard are actually bad. Blood Angels are one of the few Space Marine armies that don't actually need a bunch of Primaris stuff if you don't want it. Generally, Primaris Marines are good at shooting but only mediocre at close combat.

Baal Predators weren't my thing so much as Fast Razorbacks and Sanguinary Priests giving Feel No Pain to half the army. Doesn't look like either of those are still things, unfortunately.

But the key thing is that you don't want any Tactical Marines.

Because they're getting phased out, or is it just a power-level thing compared to the Primaris troops options? EDIT: Speaking of, where are the rules for Primaris Infiltrators/Incursors? I don't seem them in Index: Imperium 1.