Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXIX: Miracle on 39th Thread

[hamishspence]

It's got fluff - but I get the impression that the main reason for it, is to give a bunch of armies "build your own army" rules - basically taking inspiration from the old Build Your Own Chapter/Regiment/Hive Fleet rules in late 3e/early 4e.

[Destro_Yersul]

I spent forum downtime doing some painting. Here's Ahriman:

Spoiler

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Obviously this is before I did his base, but everything else is done.

[Voidhawk]

So I've been pretty distracted the last few months and completely missed the Psychic Awakening stuff. What's the deal with it, and does it have corresponding fluff?

Each book takes 2 or more factions, pits them against each other, and gives them new rules/stratagems.

As a collection they are the follow-on to the Vigilis books, continuing to advance the timeline narrative. (Several of the books happen simultaneously, and the timeline gets a little wonky in places due to bad writers warp shenanigans.)

Really though, the fluff is the same as it always is: "Things Get Worse; The War Intensifies!". Despite the war already being as high as it can go, GW digs deep and finds a new way to make it go to 11.

Oh yes, and don't be fooled by the name: Psychic stuff isn't particularly front and centre. But there is a decent amount of weird things going on in the background of each book, if you care to look.

[Don Qui Ho Tep]

By and large I think Psychic Awakening is a missed opportunity to provide specialist detachments to all factions. Having only read Faith and Fury, I thought that the conflicts they were setting up were very exciting - and was very disappointed that they were all left as cliff-hangers. I enjoy the writing style of future-history and would probably pick up the other supplements for fluff alone if they weren't $40 each and if the conflicts they describe were actually resolved. Even so, Faith and Fury did a good job of exploring 40k as a setting rather than a narrative - it didn't really on the actions of a few very powerful characters. Maybe it's an attempt to course-correct after Dark Imperium? I don't have Phoenix Rising but I read the plot summary online and it does seem to still focus on a few important characters, and have a very frustrating non-ending.

I think it would have been more fun to package more factions into fewer books. Have most of the Chaos factions, detailing their various campaigns, against a few Imperial factions, Eldar against Slaanesh and each other, and the rest of the Xenos vs the rest of the Imperium. More fluff for everyone (I'd like to know what happens in Ritual of the Damned but I'm not paying $40 for it!) and less time on chapter tactics, more time on specialist formations.

But what do I know. I'm a nostalgia-driven casual who plays about one game a month. I feel like it's not worth it for me to keep pace with all these rule updates because I don't get a chance to use them before they become obsolete. That's a me problem, I suppose.

[Renegade Paladin]

Well, the forum's back just in time for me to say we had our winter doubles tournament today. It went smoothly until the last round when the top table got into a huge argument about terrain and one of them just quit out from under his doubles partner.

[Cheesegear]

Welcome back, kids.

So I've been pretty distracted the last few months and completely missed the Psychic Awakening stuff. What's the deal with it, and does it have corresponding fluff?

By and large, the Psychic Awakening books are generally pretty badly received. Not because they break the game or anything. But that the books are just good enough to warrant you spending money on them. But, for the most part, the books are too expensive for what they are. A really ****ty showing for Codex Marines, because they're looking at bringing several books to the gaming table by this point;

1. Rulebook
2. Chapter Approved '19
3. Codex: Space Marines
4. Supplement of Choice (you don't have to bring a Supplement, but there's literally no reason not to)
5. Psychic Awakening II; Space Marine Boogaloo
6. Vigilus (unlike a Chapter Supplement, this one actually is optional)

Especially jarring when you go back to the start of 8th Ed. and GW saying how they're go to try and reduce the number of books people have to bring to the table.

I might do a Let's Read of Psychic Awakening. It's not going anywhere. Unlike Vigilus, I'm not going to get bored halfway through and stop reading.

In personal news;
During the hiatus, Maelstrom in my meta died a horrible fiery death. Chapter Approved '19 totally ruined Maelstrom by making it 'more like ITC', by making Objectives - the things on the board, not the cards in your hand - obsolete. So, now our meta is playing Eternal War.

I, personally, have moved into Kill Team and Age of Sigmar. Our 40K League finished last week, and now everyone in my meta is burned out on it. It was generally a ****show.

[Hootman]

Well, the forum's back just in time for me to say we had our winter doubles tournament today. It went smoothly until the last round when the top table got into a huge argument about terrain and one of them just quit out from under his doubles partner.

That's terrible. I can't even imagine doing that to someone. To clarify, I can totally see myself getting mad enough at a jerk opponent that I need to go outside for a bit, but it is literally the job of the TO/Judge(s) to solve rules disputes. And come on, your partner is counting on you.

...And they were arguing about terrain? In the finals? How has that not been ruled on already, like, hours ago?

Our 40K League finished last week, and now everyone in my meta is burned out on it. It was generally a ****show.

I'm sorry to hear that as well. I wish GW had a forward-thinking division whose job it was to extrapolate the outcomes of major playstyle changes like CA'19 Maelstrom. It's so obvious once you actually PLAY with it a few times. Which Objectives do I not want to deal with? Let me keep a record of the ones I pull out for 30 test games using as many factions as I know how to play, then do a comparison.

Oh look. I pulled these 8 cards 90% of the time, and half of those were different 'Objective X' cards, and thus could have been ANY of that type. And the thing that makes Maelstrom cool IS the 'suddenly, you MUST go get near Objective X, or you can't score points this round' mechanic, so...

Sigh. It's not even that difficult of a fix.

Hootman's Chapter Unapproved, 2020
(First Draft)

Spoiler

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When you set up for a Maelstrom game, after placing Objectives but before anything else, take your deck of objectives and pull out up to 6 objectives. These objectives are discarded before the game begins, earning no points. No more than 2 of these objectives may be from the same column (ie, Secure Objective X are the cards 21-26, that's Column 2. Defend Obj X is Column 3, etc). If you ever shuffle any discarded objectives back into your deck, you may choose from the objectives that were discarded before the game as well as the ones discarded during play, as the High Command realizes that a previously inconsequential objective has suddenly become valuable.
(SIDEBAR: New Stratagem: Tactical Reassessment
1cp, shuffle up to 2 objectives that were removed before the game began into your objective deck, then draw 1 card. Activate this stratagem only during the point you'd normally draw for the turn, which I don't actually know, having never played that way. If you're not playing a style that actually draws cards, just shuffle them in and be done with it.)

If, based on your opponent's list, a certain objective would be 100% impossible (not just difficult), you must remove those objectives first. (They have no units with Fly AND no Pskyers? Take out Scour the Skies and Witchhunter.) Objectives taken out this way count towards your 6 removed.
(SIDEBAR: These are the things the check for, and the objectives that care about them:
*insert list here* Scour, Master, etcetc)

If, based on your own list, certain objectives are impossible, too bad, that's what you make choices for.
(Some factions don't have psykers, and thus must remove the Master the Warp card. However, your opponent is simultaneously forced to remove the Witchhunter card, so the number of choices remaining is still equal.)

There. Now it can go for editing and playtesting. Hopefully it's more workable than the official version, and the impossible objectives are spread out enough that there can't be 3 in one column. I'll check later when I have more time, but for now, C&C is welcome.

I've been toying with the idea of making better terrain/cover rules, because I find the current ones useless and uninteresting, so perhaps I'll use this as an excuse to actually work on that project as well, and combine them into one thing.

Edit: Drat. Scour the Skies, Witchhunter, and Big Game Hunter are all in one column. The only other 'might be impossible' card is Master the Warp, as far as I can see. Maybe I'd have to rule that pulling impossible cards is an exception to the normal 'only 2 per column' rule, but depending on the wording, that means someone could just...remove almost all of Column 6? Is that a problem? I'm not sure.

The column limit is primarily for preventing people from removing ALL of the Defend objectives, or all of the Secure/Defend objectives that aren't in their deployment zone. But since I wrote it such that it comes immediately after placing objectives, you don't KNOW your deployment zone yet. So that's...probably fine? For now?

[Renegade Paladin]

That's terrible. I can't even imagine doing that to someone. To clarify, I can totally see myself getting mad enough at a jerk opponent that I need to go outside for a bit, but it is literally the job of the TO/Judge(s) to solve rules disputes. And come on, your partner is counting on you.

...And they were arguing about terrain? In the finals? How has that not been ruled on already, like, hours ago?

His opponent he got in the argument with wasn't even being a jerk. He'd let the guy's partner adjust position on his Lieutenant in the Shooting phase when he realized he'd messed up positioning, was asking for agreement on things, etc (which I only know because Table 1 is right in front of the judge's desk and I overheard most of it). What broke down was the ruins: They had agreed before the game to treat two of the smaller ruins as enclosed (because they mostly are) and the two big ones as open backed (because they are) in a way that made the table even. However, they'd failed to define where the open backed ruins' walls ended for ITC first-floor-blocks-LoS purposes. The team that did not quit realized this at the top of 2 and asked where the wall ended. They negotiated what sounded like a reasonable settlement: Defining the holes in the walls as ending where true LoS indicates they do (because of course).

The problem came because the one who ended up quitting worded his proposal in this way: "Holes are holes." Which, he didn't inform his opponents, he fully intended to mean to renege on the pregame agreement on the enclosed ruins. Then he started to shoot at a unit that had moved into them.

So essentially I was asked to rule on a player agreement I wasn't a witness to rather than the rules of the game. I tried to get them to be reasonable, but after way too much time being lawyered I did what they wanted and made my ruling; that based on the undisputed account of the pregame agreement, the enclosed ruins would remain enclosed. He didn't like that, and quit the game less than ten minutes later - with a full Iron Hands party bus with four Dreadnoughts still in play. Like, I don't get it; there was definitely a game to be had.

[Cheesegear]

Oh look. I pulled these 8 cards 90% of the time, and half of those were different 'Objective X' cards...

Only the same 8? And 90% of the time? And only four of them are Secures or Defends? You aren't trying.

Before you've even rolled the Mission, you've already removed cards from the deck.
1. Look at your opponent's army list.
2. Choose Tactical Objectives.
3. Then place terrain and Objectives.
3. Then roll Mission.

When you're choosing your Tactical Objectives, you haven't set up any of the terrain, you don't know where the Objectives are placed, and you don't know who has which DZ or which Mission you're playing. You should be removing all 12 Secured and Defend Objectives from your deck. Why would you ever include any Secures or Defends without knowing any information about where the Objectives are, where you are, or what the Mission is? When you know [Kill Unit X] is reliable every time. Build your army list, with the pre-game knowledge, that securing - let alone defending - objectives is totally unreliable. Because it's not like your opponent isn't doing the exact same thing, which means Objectives are meaningless. Except for Ascension - but any three will do, and that's why Ascension is an amazing Objective.

Then you throw out Advance (ew, gross), Psychological Warfare (obviously), and Domination.

You should be throwing out exactly the same ~15 Objectives, including all the Secures and Defends. 100% of the time.

Key point here, is that you've seen your opponent's army list before you've rolled the Mission:
So you know whether or not they have Psykers (Witch Hunter), Fliers (Scour the Skies) or large Vehicles (Big Game Hunter). So remove as needed.
If your opponent has no Psykers, Fliers or large Vehicles, lol. But ideally you should be able to swap at least one of those out for Master the Warp or Priority Orders.

At worst, you know that there are some fairly stupid Faction Objectives. So you include SecOb and DefOb of the same [X], and get rid of the dumb Faction ones. Then, since you know what's in your deck - but not when you'll draw it - you know that really, there's only one Objective on the board that matters, so you can just beeline to that on Turn 1. But that's worst case scenario when you're playing a Faction with stupid Faction Objectives.

[Forum Explorer]

Welcome back, kids.



By and large, the Psychic Awakening books are generally pretty badly received. Not because they break the game or anything. But that the books are just good enough to warrant you spending money on them. But, for the most part, the books are too expensive for what they are. A really ****ty showing for Codex Marines, because they're looking at bringing several books to the gaming table by this point;

1. Rulebook
2. Chapter Approved '19
3. Codex: Space Marines
4. Supplement of Choice (you don't have to bring a Supplement, but there's literally no reason not to)
5. Psychic Awakening II; Space Marine Boogaloo
6. Vigilus (unlike a Chapter Supplement, this one actually is optional)

Especially jarring when you go back to the start of 8th Ed. and GW saying how they're go to try and reduce the number of books people have to bring to the table.

I might do a Let's Read of Psychic Awakening. It's not going anywhere. Unlike Vigilus, I'm not going to get bored halfway through and stop reading.

In personal news;
During the hiatus, Maelstrom in my meta died a horrible fiery death. Chapter Approved '19 totally ruined Maelstrom by making it 'more like ITC', by making Objectives - the things on the board, not the cards in your hand - obsolete. So, now our meta is playing Eternal War.

I, personally, have moved into Kill Team and Age of Sigmar. Our 40K League finished last week, and now everyone in my meta is burned out on it. It was generally a ****show.

They totally break the game by buffing the already buffed Space Marine armies. Or specifically, Iron Hands. Because the triple repulsor needed to also get a +1 to hit aura.

Then there was stuff like Blood Angels getting a completely unwarranted buff to their faction trait for no reason.

Much to the frustration of every non-Space Marine player, because in pretty much every book, Space Marines always got the better buffs. Not counting the books where no Space Marine factions were mentioned. (So far, 2/5 books)

[Hootman]

You should be throwing out exactly the same ~15 Objectives, including all the Secures and Defends. 100% of the time.

...That's about 3x as many objectives trashed as I had thought it let you do. I was coming from the perspective of 6 getting trashed, not 15+.

Well, THERE'S your problem. That's why New Maelstrom is garbage. You don't actually have to play to any of the objectives. That's so stupid, only GW could make that mistake.

Bright side? Way easier to make something better.

[Forum Explorer]

...That's about 3x as many objectives trashed as I had thought it let you do. I was coming from the perspective of 6 getting trashed, not 15+.

Well, THERE'S your problem. That's why New Maelstrom is garbage. You don't actually have to play to any of the objectives. That's so stupid, only GW could make that mistake.

Bright side? Way easier to make something better.

With only trashing 6, it actually works perfectly fine.

[Renegade Paladin]

Yeah, Schemes of War as written lets you trash a full half the deck; you discard down to a minimum of 18 cards. It's dumb.

[Mystic Muse]

What's an Iron Hands party bus?

[Renegade Paladin]

What's an Iron Hands party bus?

In this case, a Leviathan Dreadnought, three Redemptor Dreadnoughts, a Techmarine, and a Primaris Lieutenant. The Dreadnoughts form a box around the characters so they can't be shot, and they're all re-rolling wounds and regenerating health from them.

[Cheesegear]

...That's about 3x as many objectives trashed as I had thought it let you do. I was coming from the perspective of 6 getting trashed, not 15+.

CA'18 was up to 6. And unsurprisingly I played it all the time and it was good.

CA'19 is 'be like ITC cause we heard it's popular' and gets rid of up to 18 (i.e; all of the Sec and DefObs).

I hated it upon reading. No playtesting required. I can read. I know how the game works. Thankfully in a month or two of playtesting my meta caught up with me.

Also remembering that I playtested it six months earlier out of White Dwarf and hated it and dreaded it being the new version of the game. I hate ITC format so much and I'm deeply saddened that GW is trying to emulate it.

[Renegade Paladin]

In an ironic turn of events, I'm basically forced to start using ITC format at my events starting with the next one because a large group of the players got together and sent the shop a list of demands, one of which was to quit it with our mission pack format because evidently some of them found having different mission types every round confusing. I think a lot of them are going to have a rude awakening, though, because the local meta heavily revolves around leaning hard on the big Lords of War to club seals, and ITC secondaries punish that sort of thing pretty hard. Be careful what you wish for.

Though Schemes of War doesn't bear much resemblance to ITC. ITC at least rewards holding objectives; in Schemes of War you're free to just ignore them entirely.

[Artanis]

In an ironic turn of events, I'm basically forced to start using ITC format at my events starting with the next one because a large group of the players got together and sent the shop a list of demands, one of which was to quit it with our mission pack format because evidently some of them found having different mission types every round confusing. I think a lot of them are going to have a rude awakening, though, because the local meta heavily revolves around leaning hard on the big Lords of War to club seals, and ITC secondaries punish that sort of thing pretty hard. Be careful what you wish for.

Though Schemes of War doesn't bear much resemblance to ITC. ITC at least rewards holding objectives; in Schemes of War you're free to just ignore them entirely.

Make sure you let everybody know whose fault it is that you're having to use ITC

[Mystic Muse]

Got mostly Warhammer stuff for my birthday.

Iron Father Feirros, who I just finished painting. He was right at the level where he was pleasant to do, unlike Cawl who I would only do for high double digits, or triple digits at this point.

Adrax Agatone, who I have not decided on a color scheme for yet.

And commander Shadowsun, who I'm going to paint in my girlfriend's color scheme of black, gold and purple.

Looking at other Primaris characters too. I don't really like the White Scar or Dark Angels guy. Mephiston I jump back and forth on. There are some things on the model I love, and others I hate. Same with Kayvaan Shrike and Tor Garadon. Already have Calgar, probably getting Tigurius.

[Cheesegear]

I'm basically forced to start using ITC format at my events starting with the next one because a large group of the players got together and sent the shop a list of demands, one of which was to quit it with our mission pack format because evidently some of them found having different mission types every round confusing.

Y'know...And not, if they go to ITC tournaments, they get ITC points.

I think a lot of them are going to have a rude awakening, though, because the local meta heavily revolves around leaning hard on the big Lords of War to club seals

This is baffling to me. Like, using Knights to club seals? ...But those are terrible.

Though Schemes of War doesn't bear much resemblance to ITC. ITC at least rewards holding objectives; in Schemes of War you're free to just ignore them entirely.

ITC's 'choose how you win (and never by Objectives)' is how I mean.
Since hordes have been removed from the ITC, ITC says it rewards Objectives. But it doesn't.
It rewards holding exactly two Objectives, and making sure your opponent holds no more than you, at any time. As long as you can hold two Objectives, and unload all of your firepower onto a single of your opponent's Objectives, that's all that matters.

As with Maelstrom. It's not that Objectives don't matter. It's that specific ones don't matter. So if you can deploy, or spend a single movement to get an Objective, you're done. If you can hold all the Objectives in and around your DZ, that's all you need to do. Your opponent's Objectives don't really all that much, except in really, really specific circumstances.

[LansXero]

So essentially I was asked to rule on a player agreement I wasn't a witness to rather than the rules of the game.

Why would player agreements matter? It opens up "you said / I said" bull****, so why would the TO / Judge rule on it or enforce it? What were those ruins designed as, or meant to be played as, or used as during the X games before the final round? Thats all the matters, all the extra narrative is meaningless.

[Renegade Paladin]

Y'know...And not, if they go to ITC tournaments, they get ITC points.

... You realize that you don't have to use ITC format to report points to the circuit, right? We've been putting our players on the ladder for years. That's not why.

This is baffling to me. Like, using Knights to club seals? ...But those are terrible.

Our winning lists most often involve Magnus, Mortarion, or both. They didn't this time, but mainly because one of our former locals who's a big time player on the East Coast now happened to be home and dropped in to administer a dose of reality.

ITC's 'choose how you win (and never by Objectives)' is how I mean.
Since hordes have been removed from the ITC, ITC says it rewards Objectives. But it doesn't.
It rewards holding exactly two Objectives, and making sure your opponent holds no more than you, at any time. As long as you can hold two Objectives, and unload all of your firepower onto a single of your opponent's Objectives, that's all that matters.

As with Maelstrom. It's not that Objectives don't matter. It's that specific ones don't matter. So if you can deploy, or spend a single movement to get an Objective, you're done. If you can hold all the Objectives in and around your DZ, that's all you need to do. Your opponent's Objectives don't really all that much, except in really, really specific circumstances.

Well, with the new ITC secondaries (the missions are in beta for the current season right now) big units and multi-wound models are ALSO removed from the game, because Big Game Hunter gives points for every 10 wounds you take off of a Vehicle, Monster, or Titanic unit, cumulatively, and Reaper is a point for every 20 wounds taken off of Infantry, so a squad of Intercessors is worth a full point now.

Why would player agreements matter? It opens up "you said / I said" bull****, so why would the TO / Judge rule on it or enforce it? What were those ruins designed as, or meant to be played as, or used as during the X games before the final round? Thats all the matters, all the extra narrative is meaningless.

Because terrain is supposed to be defined before the game by the players.

[Forum Explorer]

This is baffling to me. Like, using Knights to club seals? ...But those are terrible.



ITC's 'choose how you win (and never by Objectives)' is how I mean.
Since hordes have been removed from the ITC, ITC says it rewards Objectives. But it doesn't.
It rewards holding exactly two Objectives, and making sure your opponent holds no more than you, at any time. As long as you can hold two Objectives, and unload all of your firepower onto a single of your opponent's Objectives, that's all that matters.

As with Maelstrom. It's not that Objectives don't matter. It's that specific ones don't matter. So if you can deploy, or spend a single movement to get an Objective, you're done. If you can hold all the Objectives in and around your DZ, that's all you need to do. Your opponent's Objectives don't really all that much, except in really, really specific circumstances.

I clubbed a seal using a Knight list just a little while ago. It was brutal. He was still building his list, and neither of us knew what our opponent was running before hand. So I come in with 3 Knights, and a battalion of Storm Troopers. He has a battalion of Black Templers, mostly Tactical Marines, a Land Raider Crusader, a couple characters, and only a single Devestator squad. He did not have enough anti-tank to do jack all to me, and his list was pretty weak to begin with. So yeah, when it comes to clubbing seals, Knights can be very brutal at it because new players often don't know how, or just don't have the tools to deal with full Knight lists.

ITC has recently made the bonus objectives significantly easier to score, which does put a little more empathsis on holding objectives.

Well, with the new ITC secondaries (the missions are in beta for the current season right now) big units and multi-wound models are ALSO removed from the game, because Big Game Hunter gives points for every 10 wounds you take off of a Vehicle, Monster, or Titanic unit, cumulatively, and Reaper is a point for every 20 wounds taken off of Infantry, so a squad of Intercessors is worth a full point now.

A full squad of Intercessors is a point. 5 man squads are only 10 wounds. For that matter though, I disagree. It is about as devastating as it always has been, depending on what you are running. 12 wound vehicles give a little more though not a lot, but seven wound vehicles/monsters aren't worth a full point anymore, so they got significantly better. While 6 wound vehicles are actually worth points now. But Titanic units are the big winners, because they give up less points per titanic unit, but more importantly, Titanic characters are no longer an easy 4 points for Kingslayer.

Overall though, if you are running a vehicle heavy list, you are likely aren't noticing much of a difference. That fourth point is slightly easier to get, but not by much.

Reaper being easier is nice, as it was one of the harder destroy objectives which often needed you to completely table your opponent (or close to) in order to max it out. But again, I don't think it changes things that much. Most armies don't have a lot of multi-wound infantry, so it seems more to make it actually possible to score Reaper against Space Marines, while everyone else isn't really affected by it.


It's been a long time, so here's a battle report for you! My cousin and I had a game;

Spoiler: His Tyranids

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Kronos Battalion

Walking Hive Tyrant, Venom Cannon (Relic) and MRC
Walking Hive Tyrant, Brainleech Devourers and MRC

3 Rippers
3 Rippers
3 Rippers

Exocrine
Exocrine
Malceptor

Kronos Battalion

Neurothrope
Malentrope

3 Rippers
3 Rippers
3 Rippers

Tyrannofex with the 2D6 autohit weapon in a Pod

Rusted Claw Battalion

Magnus
Primus

14 Acolytes with 4 Rock Saws
15 Acolytes with 4 Rock Saws
10 Guardsmen

Clavex

Spoiler: My Tau

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Brigade Detachment (Tau)

HQ
Cadre Fireblade: 42

Cadre Fireblade: 42

Crisis Commander with 4 Fusion Guns: 128

Troops
5 Fire Warriors with markerlight: 38

5 Fire Warriors with markerlight: 38

5 Fire Warriors with markerlight: 38

5 Fire Warriors with markerlight: 38

5 Fire Warriors with markerlight: 38

5 Fire Warriors with markerlight: 38


Fast Attack
9 Vespids: 99

5 Pathfinders with 5 Markerlights: 40

5 Pathfinders with 5 Markerlights: 40

Heavy Support
Broadside with Heavy Rail Rifle, Velocity Tracker, and Smart Missile Systems: 92

Broadside with Heavy Rail Rifle, Velocity Tracker, and Smart Missile Systems: 92

Broadside with Heavy Rail Rifle, Velocity Tracker and Smart Missile Systems: 92

Elites
3 Crisis Suits with 3 Plasma Rifles: 144

3 Crisis Suits with 3 Plasma Rifles: 144

3 Crisis Suits with 3 Plasma Rifles: 144

Kroot Shaper: 20

Super Heavy Auxiliary

Stormsurge with 4 Destroyer Missiles (Obliteration Missile upgrade), 2 Burst cannons, 2 smart missile systems, a pulse Driver cannon, advanced targeting systems, shield generator, and counterfire defense system: 294

Battalion (Tau)

HQ
Crisis Commander with 3 High Yield Missile Pods, and Advanced Targeting Systems: 153

Cadre Fireblade: 42

Troops
11 Kroot: 44

10 Kroot: 40

10 Kroot: 40

10 Kroot: 40

Spoiler: The Game

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We were playing ITC, mission number 3, where we each place 1 objective, one in our deployment zone, and one just out of it. Deployment was Dawn of War. He deploys his army in one mean ball in the middle while Rippers hide on an objective in one corner, and the Guardsmen give him some presence on the other. I split my army in two, with all my Fire warriors around the objective in my corner, with half the Kroot backing them up, while my Stormsurge, Pathfinders, Missile Commander, Broadsides, and the other half of the Kroot in the other corner. His secondaries are Recon, Butcher's Bill, and Gangbusters. Mine were Engineers (the Kroot with the Fire warriors and a Fire warrior squad), Big Game Hunter, and Marked for Death (both Exocrines and both Acolyte squads)

He got first turn, but I got to counter deploy, and put my Stormsurge out of range of his Exocrines. Turn 1 he ends up killing 2 Broadsides, almost killing a third, and most of a kroot squad. I spend 2 CP to autopass the morale for the kroot squad so it can screen away a Hive Tyrant on the Fire Warrior side, and pop Mon'ka which lets me get 5 Markerlights through on his Exocrine so it gets obliterated by the Stormsurge. I get the Hive Tyrant with Devourers down to 7 wounds, and the Venom Cannon Hive Tyrant down to 4. More importantly, my Kroot scout move lets me take both middle objectives, scoring me the bonus point and hold more.

Second turn, his Pod comes down, and he shoots into the Engineer kroot, but they get lucky and only lose half the squad. He finishes off the screening Kroot, and his Rippers come down to score him double points for Recon. He also finishes off the last Broadside, while his Malceptor keeps moving up towards my Stormsurge flank. In return my Crisis suits and Vespids come down, supporting my Fire Warrior flank, though I do throw one unit in his backline. It takes everything on my Fire Warrior side to just kill the Hive Tyrant with 7 wounds, namely because I completely forgot about the 3 CP strat to give myself +1 to wound. He spikes his saves on his Exocrine (it had a 5++/5+++), so my Stormsurge does nothing, while it takes both my Missile Commander and my last squad of Plasma suits to give his other Hive Tyrant. Still, I once again get the bonus point, and hold more, while he gets kill more. I do get 2 points for Engineers, as both squads engineered this turn.

Third turn, his Acolytes come out to play, and absolutely butcher my Crisis Suits on the Fire Warrior side, as well as the fusion Commander. My overwatch was brutal though, and he lost most of one squad in return, and after morale he only had 1 left from the 15 man squad. His Exocrine killed the other squad of Crisis suits, while his Guardsmen and Pod put some pot shots into my Vespids. More importantly, his Tyrannofex butchers both of my Engineer squads when he spikes his shots (getting 10 into the Kroot and 9 into the Fire Warriors), denying me that last point. My kroot holding the center objective are getting battered from psyker powers, but are holding the line while his Maleceptor is finally close enough I can't just ignore it. So I throw all of my Stormsurge's small guns into it, plus the Missile Commander to murder it. The stupid Exorine get insanely lucky, only taking a single wound from the Stormsurge's blastcannon, so it lives another turn as well. I bring his 14 man Acoylte squad down to 2 models after morale and kill the last one in the other squad. My one remaining Vespid grabs the other middle objective, so again I get Hold More and the Bonus while he gets Kill More. He once again gets double points for Recon, maxing it out.

Fourth Turn his 2 remaining Acolytes begin to run away, while his Tyrannofex utterly devastates my remaining Fire Warriors, clearling the flank of all but my Fire Blade Commanders. His Guardsmen plink away at my sole remaining Vespid, but can't kill it, so he needs to devote his Exocrine to finish it off. His Rippers and Malenthrope challenge my remaining Kroot squad and shaper for the other objective, and claim it, more importantly, managing to trap the Kroot so they can't fall back. I finally manage to kill his Exocrine with my Stormsurge and Missile Commander, but my Fire Blades can't finish off the 2 Acolytes and they get away, denying me a Marked for Death point. This turn he gets the Bonus, Kill More, and Hold More. At this point he's maxed out his secondaries, while I'm effectively maxed, since the last two points are now impossible.

Fifth Turn, his Tyrannofex kills a Fire Blade while his Guardsmen and his Magnus kills the Shaper. In return I kill off his Rippers and his Magnus. In a moment of glory, my remaining Fire Blade takes the last two wounds off his Primas in close combat. However, since the Bonus point is scored at the end of each turn, he still gets it, even though I take the objective back in my turn. In the end he gets the Bonus point and Hold More. Crucially, I miscount the kills, not taking the Kill More, thinking we both killed two.

At this point he is one point ahead. We do some quick calculations and figure that he's guaranteed Hold More at this point, with the bonus being an unlikely possibility. The best I can do in return is score Kill More, which is A) not Guaranteed and B) still leave him with that one point advantage. Sadly, if I hadn't messed up counting in the previous turn, we were actually tied and we should have played it out but we end up calling it as his win with a one point lead.


Overall a great game, and I'm really happy with how the 'Horde' Tau plays out. The Stormsurge (particularly Obliteration Missiles) was amazing, but I should have placed him more aggressively so his Smart Missiles were in range of the Rippers holding his back objective all game. If I had killed them off earlier, that would've been game winning right there. More importantly was losing the Vespids, as the extra shots from the guys who ran away would've gotten me those last 2 Acolytes. But biggest of all was forgetting about the Tau stratagem to get +1 to wound. The whole reason I'm running Tau is for that strat and I don't use it, which would've made killing that stupid Hive Tyrant so much easier, and if it had died earlier, I could've spent my plasma shots killing his Malenthrope which would've let me just completely shatter his flank on the side with my Stormsurge.

[Don Qui Ho Tep]

It's been a long time, so here's a battle report for you! My cousin and I had a game;

Spoiler: His Tyranids

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Kronos Battalion

Walking Hive Tyrant, Venom Cannon (Relic) and MRC
Walking Hive Tyrant, Brainleech Devourers and MRC

3 Rippers
3 Rippers
3 Rippers

Exocrine
Exocrine
Malceptor

Kronos Battalion

Neurothrope
Malentrope

3 Rippers
3 Rippers
3 Rippers

Tyrannofex with the 2D6 autohit weapon in a Pod

Rusted Claw Battalion

Magnus
Primus

14 Acolytes with 4 Rock Saws
15 Acolytes with 4 Rock Saws
10 Guardsmen

Clavex

Spoiler: My Tau

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Brigade Detachment (Tau)

HQ
Cadre Fireblade: 42

Cadre Fireblade: 42

Crisis Commander with 4 Fusion Guns: 128

Troops
5 Fire Warriors with markerlight: 38

5 Fire Warriors with markerlight: 38

5 Fire Warriors with markerlight: 38

5 Fire Warriors with markerlight: 38

5 Fire Warriors with markerlight: 38

5 Fire Warriors with markerlight: 38


Fast Attack
9 Vespids: 99

5 Pathfinders with 5 Markerlights: 40

5 Pathfinders with 5 Markerlights: 40

Heavy Support
Broadside with Heavy Rail Rifle, Velocity Tracker, and Smart Missile Systems: 92

Broadside with Heavy Rail Rifle, Velocity Tracker, and Smart Missile Systems: 92

Broadside with Heavy Rail Rifle, Velocity Tracker and Smart Missile Systems: 92

Elites
3 Crisis Suits with 3 Plasma Rifles: 144

3 Crisis Suits with 3 Plasma Rifles: 144

3 Crisis Suits with 3 Plasma Rifles: 144

Kroot Shaper: 20

Super Heavy Auxiliary

Stormsurge with 4 Destroyer Missiles (Obliteration Missile upgrade), 2 Burst cannons, 2 smart missile systems, a pulse Driver cannon, advanced targeting systems, shield generator, and counterfire defense system: 294

Battalion (Tau)

HQ
Crisis Commander with 3 High Yield Missile Pods, and Advanced Targeting Systems: 153

Cadre Fireblade: 42

Troops
11 Kroot: 44

10 Kroot: 40

10 Kroot: 40

10 Kroot: 40

Spoiler: The Game

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We were playing ITC, mission number 3, where we each place 1 objective, one in our deployment zone, and one just out of it. Deployment was Dawn of War. He deploys his army in one mean ball in the middle while Rippers hide on an objective in one corner, and the Guardsmen give him some presence on the other. I split my army in two, with all my Fire warriors around the objective in my corner, with half the Kroot backing them up, while my Stormsurge, Pathfinders, Missile Commander, Broadsides, and the other half of the Kroot in the other corner. His secondaries are Recon, Butcher's Bill, and Gangbusters. Mine were Engineers (the Kroot with the Fire warriors and a Fire warrior squad), Big Game Hunter, and Marked for Death (both Exocrines and both Acolyte squads)

He got first turn, but I got to counter deploy, and put my Stormsurge out of range of his Exocrines. Turn 1 he ends up killing 2 Broadsides, almost killing a third, and most of a kroot squad. I spend 2 CP to autopass the morale for the kroot squad so it can screen away a Hive Tyrant on the Fire Warrior side, and pop Mon'ka which lets me get 5 Markerlights through on his Exocrine so it gets obliterated by the Stormsurge. I get the Hive Tyrant with Devourers down to 7 wounds, and the Venom Cannon Hive Tyrant down to 4. More importantly, my Kroot scout move lets me take both middle objectives, scoring me the bonus point and hold more.

Second turn, his Pod comes down, and he shoots into the Engineer kroot, but they get lucky and only lose half the squad. He finishes off the screening Kroot, and his Rippers come down to score him double points for Recon. He also finishes off the last Broadside, while his Malceptor keeps moving up towards my Stormsurge flank. In return my Crisis suits and Vespids come down, supporting my Fire Warrior flank, though I do throw one unit in his backline. It takes everything on my Fire Warrior side to just kill the Hive Tyrant with 7 wounds, namely because I completely forgot about the 3 CP strat to give myself +1 to wound. He spikes his saves on his Exocrine (it had a 5++/5+++), so my Stormsurge does nothing, while it takes both my Missile Commander and my last squad of Plasma suits to give his other Hive Tyrant. Still, I once again get the bonus point, and hold more, while he gets kill more. I do get 2 points for Engineers, as both squads engineered this turn.

Third turn, his Acolytes come out to play, and absolutely butcher my Crisis Suits on the Fire Warrior side, as well as the fusion Commander. My overwatch was brutal though, and he lost most of one squad in return, and after morale he only had 1 left from the 15 man squad. His Exocrine killed the other squad of Crisis suits, while his Guardsmen and Pod put some pot shots into my Vespids. More importantly, his Tyrannofex butchers both of my Engineer squads when he spikes his shots (getting 10 into the Kroot and 9 into the Fire Warriors), denying me that last point. My kroot holding the center objective are getting battered from psyker powers, but are holding the line while his Maleceptor is finally close enough I can't just ignore it. So I throw all of my Stormsurge's small guns into it, plus the Missile Commander to murder it. The stupid Exorine get insanely lucky, only taking a single wound from the Stormsurge's blastcannon, so it lives another turn as well. I bring his 14 man Acoylte squad down to 2 models after morale and kill the last one in the other squad. My one remaining Vespid grabs the other middle objective, so again I get Hold More and the Bonus while he gets Kill More. He once again gets double points for Recon, maxing it out.

Fourth Turn his 2 remaining Acolytes begin to run away, while his Tyrannofex utterly devastates my remaining Fire Warriors, clearling the flank of all but my Fire Blade Commanders. His Guardsmen plink away at my sole remaining Vespid, but can't kill it, so he needs to devote his Exocrine to finish it off. His Rippers and Malenthrope challenge my remaining Kroot squad and shaper for the other objective, and claim it, more importantly, managing to trap the Kroot so they can't fall back. I finally manage to kill his Exocrine with my Stormsurge and Missile Commander, but my Fire Blades can't finish off the 2 Acolytes and they get away, denying me a Marked for Death point. This turn he gets the Bonus, Kill More, and Hold More. At this point he's maxed out his secondaries, while I'm effectively maxed, since the last two points are now impossible.

Fifth Turn, his Tyrannofex kills a Fire Blade while his Guardsmen and his Magnus kills the Shaper. In return I kill off his Rippers and his Magnus. In a moment of glory, my remaining Fire Blade takes the last two wounds off his Primas in close combat. However, since the Bonus point is scored at the end of each turn, he still gets it, even though I take the objective back in my turn. In the end he gets the Bonus point and Hold More. Crucially, I miscount the kills, not taking the Kill More, thinking we both killed two.

At this point he is one point ahead. We do some quick calculations and figure that he's guaranteed Hold More at this point, with the bonus being an unlikely possibility. The best I can do in return is score Kill More, which is A) not Guaranteed and B) still leave him with that one point advantage. Sadly, if I hadn't messed up counting in the previous turn, we were actually tied and we should have played it out but we end up calling it as his win with a one point lead.


Overall a great game, and I'm really happy with how the 'Horde' Tau plays out. The Stormsurge (particularly Obliteration Missiles) was amazing, but I should have placed him more aggressively so his Smart Missiles were in range of the Rippers holding his back objective all game. If I had killed them off earlier, that would've been game winning right there. More importantly was losing the Vespids, as the extra shots from the guys who ran away would've gotten me those last 2 Acolytes. But biggest of all was forgetting about the Tau stratagem to get +1 to wound. The whole reason I'm running Tau is for that strat and I don't use it, which would've made killing that stupid Hive Tyrant so much easier, and if it had died earlier, I could've spent my plasma shots killing his Malenthrope which would've let me just completely shatter his flank on the side with my Stormsurge.

Sounds like a good match! I haven't seen a Tau brigade before. Moving forward, do you think the Kroot and Vespids were worth taking? It seems that the Kroot were mostly holding down engineers - were you able to max that out or where they taken off the board too soon? Engineers seems like more a defensive secondary - do you think that would work without the horde? Would having taken a third aggressive secondary made a difference, do you think?

[Forum Explorer]

Sounds like a good match! I haven't seen a Tau brigade before. Moving forward, do you think the Kroot and Vespids were worth taking? It seems that the Kroot were mostly holding down engineers - were you able to max that out or where they taken off the board too soon? Engineers seems like more a defensive secondary - do you think that would work without the horde? Would having taken a third aggressive secondary made a difference, do you think?

Kroot were great, their early scout move lets you create screens at a distance, so they keep the enemy pushed back. They also give you some more board control and let you take more objectives. They are only 40 points per unit, so you really get a lot out of them for that. And their shooting is not bad for a 4 point model.

Vespid have a nice 1CP strat, letting them reroll all misses when they first come out of reserves, which I think it worth it. A squad of Drones would've been better though, as it would've given my Broadsides a bit more durability turn 1.

I couldn't max out engineers (one of the units of Fire Warriors by the way), but it was close. If he had rolled average (14 shots) rather than getting 19 shots I likely would've had one unit survive and finish the objective.

ITC recently updated their rules. Now you must take at least one maneuver and at least one kill secondary. Recon and Behind Enemy Lines were my other options as the other Maneuver objectives are even harder (King of the Hill is still ugh , the postman needs a highly mobile character and preferably more objectives, and Sappers is just worse Engineers). I could've done Recon, I suppose. The Kroot's mobility made that possible, but I still think Engineers was the better choice.

Engineers is typically easy against armies without ignore LoS shooting. You just hide on an objective and slowly score it. I didn't screen out that corner well enough though, so his Pod was able to slip in and get LoS to both units.

[Don Qui Ho Tep]

Ah, gotcha, thanks for letting me know. I'll have to read through the ITC update; I haven't looked at it since probably last October. I feel like that's probably a positive change - it seems as though it would encourage at least a portion of each army dedicated to fast movement and area control rather than just shooting - but let's actually read the updates before I commit myself to an opinion.

[Renegade Paladin]

A full squad of Intercessors is a point. 5 man squads are only 10 wounds. For that matter though, I disagree. It is about as devastating as it always has been, depending on what you are running. 12 wound vehicles give a little more though not a lot, but seven wound vehicles/monsters aren't worth a full point anymore, so they got significantly better. While 6 wound vehicles are actually worth points now. But Titanic units are the big winners, because they give up less points per titanic unit, but more importantly, Titanic characters are no longer an easy 4 points for Kingslayer.

Overall though, if you are running a vehicle heavy list, you are likely aren't noticing much of a difference. That fourth point is slightly easier to get, but not by much.

Reaper being easier is nice, as it was one of the harder destroy objectives which often needed you to completely table your opponent (or close to) in order to max it out. But again, I don't think it changes things that much. Most armies don't have a lot of multi-wound infantry, so it seems more to make it actually possible to score Reaper against Space Marines, while everyone else isn't really affected by it.

The new Big Game Hunter makes Dark Eldar essentially unplayable; their vehicles practically give it away where before they weren't even valid targets for it. It also makes Sentinels a liability, not that I was running them anyway.

Ah, gotcha, thanks for letting me know. I'll have to read through the ITC update; I haven't looked at it since probably last October.

The ITC missions for the season are still in beta until the end of the week, so what's there now might still change. It already has once.

[Forum Explorer]

The new Big Game Hunter makes Dark Eldar essentially unplayable; their vehicles practically give it away where before they weren't even valid targets for it. It also makes Sentinels a liability, not that I was running them anyway.

You have to kill 7 Venoms before you max out Big Game Hunter. That's not an easy task. And considering Pick Your Poison is no longer a thing, Dark Eldar have new options opened up to them in return. Dark Eldar might have to adjust their lists slightly, but I'd hardly call them unplayable.

[Hootman]

So, new Grey Knights (specifically their Psychic Tides) are pretty ridiculous. I'm sure it's mostly just that my choppa's gone all rusty on me from lack of use, but I've gotten stomped twice now. I've been trying out a bunch of ideas with list-building, but I keep having the feeling I'm hamstrung by What I Like and What I Have Built =/= What Wins Games. E.g., 90 Grots and/or 150 Boyz.

But, whatever, I'll just keep plugging away until I find something that speaks to me. And on that note, I had an amusing thought: Can Trukk Boyz live again?

Spoiler: Bumper Carz

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KULTUR: Evil Sunz

HQ
Big Mek Biker
-KFF, weapon to taste

Deffkilla Wartrike
- (W) Might is Right, perhaps

Weirdboy
+Warpath and/or Fist of Gork

TROOPS
3x Grots 10

ELITES
Burnaboyz 12

Tankbustas 10
+2 Bomb Squigs

Tankbustas 10
+2 Bomb Squigs

Nob with Banner

Nob Squad 10
-Mix of 2-3 PKs, 4-5 Power Stabbas, and maybe 2-4 Kombi-skorchas, points allowing.

TRANSPORTS
4x Trukk
-Big Shootas, Wrecking Balls

Comes out to about 1500pts, so, if the goal were 2000, there's still room for some genuine Trukk-Boyz and your favorite Mek Guns. A KFF-Morkanaut is also valid as a replacement for the Biker Mek, for the huge forcefield footprint.

Having 4-6 all Trukks rush 14+d6" on Turn 1 should give any opponent a touch of priority paralysis, and with the ability to shoot after Advancing without penalty (because what even are Heavy weapons?), you can roast a squad or two with the 'firetrucks' and blow tanks to scrap with the other ones. And if my opponent has anything deployed on the line, charging 2d6+1 immediately thanks to the Wartrike gives the list its name. Power slide into 2-3 units if they bunched up, and make them waste time retreating from combat to try to shoot you, then hop out, rinse, and repeat.

Might try a list based on this one on Saturday, so I'll try to make a battle report if I do.

[snowblizz]

Much to the frustration of every non-Space Marine player, because in pretty much every book, Space Marines always got the better [any stuff]

Ah I rememebr the moment I noticed this first. It was in 1999.