Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXIX: Miracle on 39th Thread

[The Patterner]

So for my Raven Guard these new changes to combat doctrines is honestly not a big deal. But for Iron hands and Imperial fist this must hurt.

Page 109 – Combat Doctrines
Replace the Combat Doctrines ability with the following
(note that the Devastator Doctrine, Tactical Doctrine
and Assault Doctrine remain unchanged):
‘If your army is Battle-forged and if every unit from
your army has this ability (excluding Servitor and
Unaligned units), this unit gains a bonus (see below)
depending on which combat doctrine is active for your
army, as follows:
• During the first battle round, the Devastator Doctrine
is active for your army.
• During the second battle round, the Tactical Doctrine
is active for your army.
• At the start of the third battle round, select either the
Tactical Doctrine or Assault Doctrine: until the end of
that battle round, the doctrine you selected is active
for your army.
• During the fourth and subsequent battle rounds, the
Assault Doctrine is active for your army.

[Cheesegear]

So for my Raven Guard these new changes to combat doctrines is honestly not a big deal. But for Iron hands and Imperial fist this must hurt.

An issue for me is that it still forces an explosive Turn 1. Devastator Doctrine still exists. It's still Turn 1. And it still happens every game. Having two turns of Tactical Doctrine is a massive reason to play Raven Guard and Ultramarines, because Raven Guard still get access to DevDoc.

So, instead of:

S; Iron Hands, Raven Guard
A; [Everyone else]
(A-); Salamanders

You're looking at

S; Ultramarines, Raven Guard
A; [Everyone else]

At least as far as Combat Doctrines are concerned. There's definitely Iron Hands builds that can **** up the entire game even without using DevDoc. But, it depends on the match-up. If you can stack negs to hit on Turn 1, Iron Hands are in trouble after that.

Did Master Artisans and Stealthy get nerfed? Nope.
Did they change custom Chapters having access to Chapter Supplements? It's a feature, not a bug.

Space Marines are still a very high ranked Faction. Combat Doctrines was hardly the sole reason that Marines are strong.

...But yes. Imperial Fists will struggle if they don't manage to kill every Vehicle on the board on Turn 1. But like, why wouldn't they?

At the end of the day, it might simply force Iron Hands and Imperial Fists to ally in other Chapters. You still get Doctrines, just not Doctrines+.

[Meatgrinder]

So for my Raven Guard these new changes to combat doctrines is honestly not a big deal. But for Iron hands and Imperial fist this must hurt.

I'm sorry, when did these changes come out?

[The Patterner]

I'm sorry, when did these changes come out?

Today.

So very new.

[Cheesegear]

Today.

So very new.

More surprisingly, the changes came out before Adepticon, rather than after, like last year.
I guess Iron Hands' sweeps globally - ITC and not - forced GW's hand.
That being said, if 'Iron Hands is t3h sux nao' (not true at all), wouldn't that force people to buy new models for Adepticon? That's GW's normal MO; Nerf what you bought, buy new stuff.

[druid91]

An interesting Nerf to space Marines. You can no longer choose to stay in the Devastator Doctrine. You must move to tactical in turn two.

[Forum Explorer]

An issue for me is that it still forces an explosive Turn 1. Devastator Doctrine still exists. It's still Turn 1. And it still happens every game. Having two turns of Tactical Doctrine is a massive reason to play Raven Guard and Ultramarines, because Raven Guard still get access to DevDoc.

So, instead of:

S; Iron Hands, Raven Guard
A; [Everyone else]
(A-); Salamanders

You're looking at

S; Ultramarines, Raven Guard
A; [Everyone else]

At least as far as Combat Doctrines are concerned. There's definitely Iron Hands builds that can **** up the entire game even without using DevDoc. But, it depends on the match-up. If you can stack negs to hit on Turn 1, Iron Hands are in trouble after that.

Did Master Artisans and Stealthy get nerfed? Nope.
Did they change custom Chapters having access to Chapter Supplements? It's a feature, not a bug.

Space Marines are still a very high ranked Faction. Combat Doctrines was hardly the sole reason that Marines are strong.

...But yes. Imperial Fists will struggle if they don't manage to kill every Vehicle on the board on Turn 1. But like, why wouldn't they?

At the end of the day, it might simply force Iron Hands and Imperial Fists to ally in other Chapters. You still get Doctrines, just not Doctrines+.

It's a massive difference, because now it's only an explosive turn 1, rather than an explosive every turn of the game. Like, I faced an Iron Hands army that was literally nothing but Heavy weapons once and it was insanely broken. As for Raven Guard and the others having multiple turns of Tactical Doctrine, that hasn't really changed. I mean, yeah, technically it's only 2 Turns rather than 5, but after Turn 2 and 3, most of the damage has been done. But hey, sometimes it does come down to what happens on turns 4 and 5 and very rarely 6. And not having their bonus will make them weaker.

Do Space Marines still need more nerfs? Yeah, I can think of a couple (Master of the Forge cough cough). But this was always one of the bigger ones I suggested.

[Voidhawk]

If it was also mandatory to go into Assault Doctrine on Turn 3, would that bring Ultras and RG inline with other flavours of Marine? (Even if it doesn't bring Marines inline with anyone else.)

[LeSwordfish]

I'm glad of this change because I've got a good 1000pts of iron hands on my painting table and I was hoping people wouldn't judge me for it. I can probably throw some other stuff in as well now, that sounds way more fun.

[Cheesegear]

If it was also mandatory to go into Assault Doctrine on Turn 3, would that bring Ultras and RG inline with other flavours of Marine? (Even if it doesn't bring Marines inline with anyone else.)

Probably not. Because Turns 1 and 2 are still very strong. The stronger your opening turns are, the better the rest of the game is.

If Ultramarines and Raven Guard can still have Devastator Doctrine on Turn 1, where all their AP-1 Heavy weapons become AP-2 (and in Space Marines, there's a lot). That's still pretty strong. Then, on Turn 2, **** gets real. Then on Turn 3, you start getting nerfed. For your opponent, it's already way too late, unless their models are hard-as-nails and surviving until Turn 3 is what they do (e.g; Death Guard).

It hurts Imperial Fists a lot more than it appears, since 'Fists rely so heavily on Heavy Bolters, and Stalker Bolt Rifles. Having that extra AP for the entire game, on Heavy Bolt weapons, is hugely important for their playstyle, even if the +1 Damage to <Vehicles> is irrelevant for that particular game (e.g; Tyranids don't have Vehicles).

Iron Hands needed a nerf. Combat Doctrines, wasn't it. Because now the IF Doctrine doesn't mean anything. As I've said before, Iron Hands get three really strong bonuses when they're in DevDoc. Tone that down. Don't just blanket nerf everyone. WTF are Salamanders gonna do when forced out of Tactical Doctrine?

[Renegade Paladin]

WTF are Salamanders gonna do when forced out of Tactical Doctrine?

Presumably either have effectively won the game already or it wasn't going to save them anyway, since they won't be forced out until turn 4.

[Forum Explorer]

Iron Hands needed a nerf. Combat Doctrines, wasn't it. Because now the IF Doctrine doesn't mean anything. As I've said before, Iron Hands get three really strong bonuses when they're in DevDoc. Tone that down. Don't just blanket nerf everyone. WTF are Salamanders gonna do when forced out of Tactical Doctrine?

I'm amazed Salamanders is the ones you call out as being worried about losing their Doctrine since they have one of the weaker ones.

[Cheesegear]

I'm amazed Salamanders is the ones you call out as being worried about losing their Doctrine since they have one of the weaker ones.

That's kind of my point:
I still like Imperial Fists, because their Chapter Tactics still revolves around Bolt weapons, and Bolt weapons form the 'core list' of Space Marine weapons. Imperial Fists still have a play-style. Centurion Devastators with dual Heavy Bolters, and Hurricane Bolters, still have a role, even if their Heavy Bolters are no longer AP-2 dealing 2 Damage to Vehicles. 18 shots per model, is still pretty strong. Especially if you're playing in a casual meta that doesn't have time limits so hordes are still very much part of the game. Especially 'cause Tactical Doctrine is gonna make Hurricanes, AP-1. Thunderfire Cannons are still brutally strong, even if they aren't AP-2. But, Ultramarine players already know this.

What do Salamanders do now? What's their point? For lack of a better word, what makes them special? Given that Master Artisans is a thing that anyone can just take.

[Forum Explorer]

That's kind of my point:
I still like Imperial Fists, because their Chapter Tactics still revolves around Bolt weapons, and Bolt weapons form the 'core list' of Space Marine weapons. Imperial Fists still have a play-style. Centurion Devastators with dual Heavy Bolters, and Hurricane Bolters, still have a role, even if their Heavy Bolters are no longer AP-2 dealing 2 Damage to Vehicles. 18 shots per model, is still pretty strong. Especially if you're playing in a casual meta that doesn't have time limits so hordes are still very much part of the game. Especially 'cause Tactical Doctrine is gonna make Hurricanes, AP-1. Thunderfire Cannons are still brutally strong, even if they aren't AP-2. But, Ultramarine players already know this.

What do Salamanders do now? What's their point? For lack of a better word, what makes them special? Given that Master Artisans is a thing that anyone can just take.

It seems to be around using Self Sacrifice to protect a different Imperium unit.

[Hootman]

Pursuant to my prior idea regarding Trukk-spam, I've built a list I will hopefully be able to test tomorrow. I'll most likely be playing against either Crimson Fists or Grey Knights. If anyone has any suggestions about what new and refreshing mistakes to avoid making (as opposed to the usual ones I keep making, like thinking any of my vehicle armor saves will ever pass), or any other insights, I'd appreciate reading them.

Spoiler: Demolition Derby

Show

Evil Sunz Battalion

HQ
Deffkilla Wartrike
+(W) Might is Right

Weirdboy
+(Warphead [-1CP]) Warpath, Fists of Gork

TROOPS
Boyz 12
-11 Shootaboyz, Tankbusta Bomb
-Nob with Killsaw and Choppa

Boyz 12
-11 Shootaboyz, Tankbusta Bomb
-Nob with Killsaw and Choppa

Grots 10

ELITES
Burna Boyz 12

Nob with Waaagh! Banner
-Kustom Shoota

Nobz 10
-Boss Nob: Choppa, Power Klaw
-Nob: Choppa, Power Klaw
-5x Nob: Choppa, Power Stabba
-3x Nob: Kombi-Skorcha

Tankbustas 10
-Boss Nob with Rokkit, 2 Bomb Squigs

Tankbustas 10
-Boss Nob with Rokkit, 2 Bomb Squigs

TRANSPORTS
Trukk
-Big Shoota, Wrecking Ball

Trukk
-Big Shoota, Wrecking Ball

Trukk
-Big Shoota, Wrecking Ball

Trukk
-Big Shoota, Wrecking Ball

Trukk
-Big Shoota, Wrecking Ball

Trukk
-Big Shoota, Wrecking Ball

Deathskulls Battalion

Specialist Detachment [-1CP]: Dread Waaagh!

HQ
Big Mek on Warbike
-Kustom Force Field, Kustom Mega-blasta

Big Mek W/ Shokk Attack Gun[/b]
-Choppa
+(Relic) Da Souped-up Shokka

TROOPS

Grots 10
Grots 10
Grots 10

HEAVY SUPPORT
Mek Gun
-Smasha Gun

Mek Gun
-Smasha Gun

Mek Gun
-Smasha Gun


Total: 2,000pts, 13-2=11CP.

[Forum Explorer]

Pursuant to my prior idea regarding Trukk-spam, I've built a list I will hopefully be able to test tomorrow. I'll most likely be playing against either Crimson Fists or Grey Knights. If anyone has any suggestions about what new and refreshing mistakes to avoid making (as opposed to the usual ones I keep making, like thinking any of my vehicle armor saves will ever pass), or any other insights, I'd appreciate reading them.

Spoiler: Demolition Derby

Show

Evil Sunz Battalion

HQ
Deffkilla Wartrike
+(W) Might is Right

Weirdboy
+(Warphead [-1CP]) Warpath, Fists of Gork

TROOPS
Boyz 12
-11 Shootaboyz, Tankbusta Bomb
-Nob with Killsaw and Choppa

Boyz 12
-11 Shootaboyz, Tankbusta Bomb
-Nob with Killsaw and Choppa

Grots 10

ELITES
Burna Boyz 12

Nob with Waaagh! Banner
-Kustom Shoota

Nobz 10
-Boss Nob: Choppa, Power Klaw
-Nob: Choppa, Power Klaw
-5x Nob: Choppa, Power Stabba
-3x Nob: Kombi-Skorcha

Tankbustas 10
-Boss Nob with Rokkit, 2 Bomb Squigs

Tankbustas 10
-Boss Nob with Rokkit, 2 Bomb Squigs

TRANSPORTS
Trukk
-Big Shoota, Wrecking Ball

Trukk
-Big Shoota, Wrecking Ball

Trukk
-Big Shoota, Wrecking Ball

Trukk
-Big Shoota, Wrecking Ball

Trukk
-Big Shoota, Wrecking Ball

Trukk
-Big Shoota, Wrecking Ball

Deathskulls Battalion

Specialist Detachment [-1CP]: Dread Waaagh!

HQ
Big Mek on Warbike
-Kustom Force Field, Kustom Mega-blasta

Big Mek W/ Shokk Attack Gun[/b]
-Choppa
+(Relic) Da Souped-up Shokka

TROOPS

Grots 10
Grots 10
Grots 10

HEAVY SUPPORT
Mek Gun
-Smasha Gun

Mek Gun
-Smasha Gun

Mek Gun
-Smasha Gun


Total: 2,000pts, 13-2=11CP.

I don't like Smasha Guns, can you afford to upgrade them to Tracktor Kannons or Kustom Mega Kannons? Also I'd swap from Deathskulls to Bad Moons so you can have the Big Mek shoot twice.

[Renegade Paladin]

I got a Blood and Skulls 6x6 wheel conversion kit for the Taurox that came in the Tempestus Start Collecting box I picked up secondhand, so I'm going to get to work building it. I believe I'm going to use all the magnets and make the missile launcher into an air defense emplacement or something.

[Ionbound]

I still think Salamander doctrine is way better than people think it is, because +1 to wound is extremely significant, even moreso on high shot, low strength weapons like flamers and heavy flamers. Doubly so because of how good Flamecraft can be if you're packing enough flamers. The only problem really is how to get them close, which, while significant, is not unsolvable.

[Cheesegear]

The only problem really is how to get [Salamanders] close, which, while significant, is not unsolvable.

In Turns 1 and/or 2? Yes it is.
If you haven't already done significant damage to your opponent's army by Turn 3, you're in for a bad rest of the game. This is why even White Scars are trying to get in Melee on Turn 1, even if Assault Doctrine can't pop before Turn 3.

[Hootman]

I don't like Smasha Guns, can you afford to upgrade them to Tracktor Kannons or Kustom Mega Kannons? Also I'd swap from Deathskulls to Bad Moons so you can have the Big Mek shoot twice.

I normally run KMKs, so one of my goals for this list was to field test the Smasha Gunz, and see how they compare. The Internet generally seems well-disposed towards them in my research, so I'm going to see what the fuss is about.
Doing a little mental math, they SEEM alright. Half the cost for half the shots, but longer range with more AP might be worth it. Since their odds of wounding scales directly with Toughness instead of using the normal rules...well, if I did my math right, the Smashas are better than KMKs at wounding vs T6 and below. Most vehicles are T7 or T8, though, which means the Smasha Gunz's true calling MIGHT be trying to set up a sneaky shot on a Character, or for vaporizing heavy infantry. I think the real secret benefit of Smashas might be that I won't feel pressured to reroll the number of shots; 1d3 just doesn't have enough variance to be worth rerolling, and I have an entire second gun for the same cost.

As for the Big Mek, by being part of the Dread Waaagh! Detachment, he can already shoot twice for the same cost as Bad Moons would, and his multiple floating rerolls are somewhat more useful. If I had more units in that detachment that weren't all grots, it might matter. If I had Lootas, it would be an almost mandatory change, which is sorta silly when you consider who the "looting all the stuff" clan is supposed to be.

[Ionbound]

In Turns 1 and/or 2? Yes it is.
If you haven't already done significant damage to your opponent's army by Turn 3, you're in for a bad rest of the game. This is why even White Scars are trying to get in Melee on Turn 1, even if Assault Doctrine can't pop before Turn 3.

...When at any point did I say that a Salamanders army would be lacking the capacity to put out on T1? All I'm saying is that flamers are good but any list that includes flamers needs to have it's game plan built around their range restriction. Not that you can't run things like Lascannons or Stalker Bolters or Invictor Warsuits or Executioners or whatever your favorite long-range shooting or infiltrating model is to actually do things on the first turn.

[Blackhawk748]

...When at any point did I say that a Salamanders army would be lacking the capacity to put out on T1? All I'm saying is that flamers are good but any list that includes flamers needs to have it's game plan built around their range restriction. Not that you can't run things like Lascannons or Stalker Bolters or Invictor Warsuits or Executioners or whatever your favorite long-range shooting or infiltrating model is to actually do things on the first turn.

Then the question becomes, why are you using Flamers at all?

[Ionbound]

Because they're really good? I'm not saying every model in your army has to be holding a flamer. Rather, I think that between the Salamanders Doctrine, the Flamecraft stratagem, and the existence of large transports that can carry large numbers of flamer-holding models, you can work around the range restriction without investing all of your army into that gameplan and still have points and CP left over to do other things with that cover the weakness of that gameplan such as getting T1 kills and providing a threat that the opponent has to work through before they can start shooting at your transports, and that doing so is worth doing because, to use Assault Centurions as an example, you can get 72 auto-hitting S4 shots with +1 to wound, which will rip through just about any infantry blob in the game, up to and including the dreaded IH Intercessor Brick.

I'm not saying you have to be purely focused on flamers, just that investing in them is, in my opinion, a good use of points, so long as their limitations are kept in mind.

[Don Qui Ho Tep]

In which addition did something like combat doctrines originally appear?

[Cheesegear]

In which addition did something like combat doctrines originally appear?

Doctrines originally appeared in 7th Ed, and only got to use them once, but you could choose when to use them. But, they were very different to how they are now, mostly because of the change to how Captains work.

e.g; Devastator Doctrine; Until end of turn, all of your Heavy weapons re-roll 1s to hit.

Tactical and Assault did the same. For one turn, but you got to pick.

The problem is that in order to force people away from Soup, the bonus you get from playing a single Faction, has to be worth it. By-and-large, what you get for playing a single Chapter, is fairly worth it, with two exceptions; Iron Hands' Doctrine+ is broken, Salamanders' Doctrine+ is basically useless 'cause you'll never use it. White Scars' are pretty naff, too.

There you go. Play a White Scars and Salmanders army. You still get Combat Doctrines, but you don't get Doctrines+, 'cause who cares?

It's not the Doctrines' problem.
It's the Doctrines+:
- Iron Hands can move and shoot with Heavy weapons, no penalty
- Iron Hands re-roll 1s to hit with Heavy weapons.

Jesus GW. Pick one, not both. Iron Hands still get that. 'But it's only for one turn, now'. Yeah, but that Turn is 1.

[Haruspex_Pariah]

So I finally got around to finishing the Death Guard contingent of my Dark Imperium box, and dang.

Those miniatures are decidedly not noob friendly. I can clearly recall earlier boxes having simple push-fit models, but a few of the ones in DI are super fiddly. At least the DG ones were. Isn’t a new edition box supposed to be, you know, accessible?

The SM look simpler, but I haven’t started on them yet.

[Don Qui Ho Tep]

I had a similar experience with Blackstone Fortress, actually. Lots of spindly bits that surely would have snapped-off if someone was trying to pull them out without clippers, lots of filing and cleaning and gaps to fill with green stuff. I think "easy to build" is a polite fiction. As the kits have become more intricate (and they do look lovely), I imagine it is more difficult to make an easy-to-build version.

I started with Battle for Macragge. Those sculpts were so simple, but they still needed glue for things like Space Marine backpacks and Genestealer arms.

-------

It's not the Doctrines' problem.
It's the Doctrines+:
- Iron Hands can move and shoot with Heavy weapons, no penalty
- Iron Hands re-roll 1s to hit with Heavy weapons.

Jesus GW. Pick one, not both. Iron Hands still get that. 'But it's only for one turn, now'. Yeah, but that Turn is 1.

Given that a lot of marine armies will emphasize Turn 1, is there a viable list across different armies for a Turn 1 turtle? For Chaos I wonder if Noctilith Crowns might be worth taking and plopping across your DZ. Try and flub the First Turn Roll and let your opponent waste that first turn of shooting.

I'm sure people have tried to make that work in other forms. What armies do it best?

[Cheesegear]

I'm sure people have tried to make that work in other forms. What armies do it best?

Armies that are soft-banned out of the ITC due to time clocks, and that's why Iron Hands are so strong. Because their counter(s) aren't in the format.

If you have an army with ~150 models, where the majority of them have:
a) An Invulnerable,
b) Ignore Wounds,
c) Don't take Morale, and
d) Respawn

You can survive Iron Hands. Easily. Unfortunately, if you're playing in a format with clocks, you shouldn't be running an army with ~150 models in it.

[Don Qui Ho Tep]

Gotcha. Have you found similar difficulties with the CA2019 Maelstrom? Or has the doctrine FAQ not been in play long enough to notice a difference?

[Cheesegear]

Gotcha. Have you found similar difficulties with the CA2019 Maelstrom?

If there's no time clock, hordes win. That's been the major problem of the entire edition, so much so that Space Marines (and Chaos Marines) had to get whole new Codecies.
At no point did either Codex address the fact that 'The player with the most models, wins.'

ITC brought in time clocks.
GW more-or-less removed Objectives from the game.

GW said, in no uncertain terms, at the start of 8th Ed., that they wanted to make not!Space Marines, competitive.
It took them a while (until the release of the AM Codex, and CA'17, to be exact), but they did it. But, to be fair, AM was always competitive, even in the Index.
Oh ****. Turns out when you make your flagship Faction, non-competitive, people don't buy it. ****. What do?

Removing Objectives from the game (more or less), and adding in time clocks, means that the game near-solely revolves around Kill Points, and math-hammer; Shots-per-point, and ultimately, Damage-per-point. How does your army get Kill Points, the most efficiently.
(How does your army not give up Kill Points, most efficiently, whilst still maintaining an even time limit? Play Iron Hands, obviously.)

So, not too long ago, I was convinced that Space Marine Infiltrators were one of the best units in the Codex. Not to spam, mind. But that if you didn't have at least one unit (of 5) in your list, your list was bad because your opponent would be able to Reinforcement in basically wherever they wanted. Combine Concealed Positions with 'No set up allowed' Aura made a really, really strong unit because it gave you intensely strong board control, and perhaps a few free VPs because of your ability to start the game on an Objective.

Why would you ever have any of your army not on the board? Turn 1 is so strong. So not is re-setting up not part of the game anymore (whatever happened to DMC Tzaangors?), but your opponent no longer cares about board control because Objectives don't matter.

So scratch all of that. Infiltrators suck.