Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXIX: Miracle on 39th Thread

[Renegade Paladin]

Yeah, but Ghazghkull can totally kill Ragnar, so it doesn't really work in reverse.

[Forum Explorer]

Ow, that seems like a major oversight. Yes he's big and scary but he has very little in the way of protection and he has a small number of buffs that affect him. Hell how many Strats no longer work on him?



He'll be over 200 for the statline alone. If he's not costed like a Morkanaught I'll be shocked

It's easier to count the ones that do. Which I think is 2. Medi-Squig works on him, and so does the one that lets him swing after he's been killed. Wait, 3, More Dakka works on him as well.

He's currently 235 points, so will he go up or stay the same is the question. And if he goes go up, by how much?

[Blackhawk748]

It's easier to count the ones that do. Which I think is 2. Medi-Squig works on him, and so does the one that lets him swing after he's been killed. Wait, 3, More Dakka works on him as well.

He's currently 235 points, so will he go up or stay the same is the question. And if he goes go up, by how much?

His auras are boosted as is his statline, I'm guessing 260.

[Brookshw]

I wonder if we'll eventually see primaris legion of the damned. Or is that already a thing?

[Don Qui Ho Tep]

Legion of the Damned are just apparitions, yes? I think I remember their origins in a specific lost expedition or similar, so I'd imagine they wouldn't get the new tech.

[hamishspence]

I believe it's implied in one of the Uriel Ventris novels that the Legion are made up of the ghosts of Space Marine heroes throughout history - and that Remus Ventanus, a Horus Heresy character, was one of them.

If so - then maybe some deceased Primaris heroes could end up in the Legion after death.

The Fire Hawks chapter (the main "implied source" for the Legion prior to the Ventris novels) were lost not long after the Babab War in late M.41.

[Avaris]

I wonder if we'll eventually see primaris legion of the damned. Or is that already a thing?

This prompted me to check on if the Legion are still on the webstore: sadly, they now seem to have disappeared. I kept meaning to pick some up, but could never quite justify that much money on some metal models which are very limited in support. It’s only in the last few months they’ve disappeared though, they were definitely there around Christmas. Had hoped they’d let us know when they were last chance to buy...

As for Primaris LotD, kind of makes me want to convert some as a project. Could do as a Salamanders successor ruleswise, though not sure any of the custom chapter tactics really suit them sadly.

In other news, has anyone else read the goonhammer interview with James Hewitt? Really shines a light on how ridiculously mismanaged GW was during the Kirby years. Lots of really questionable decisions were made on the back of someone in management saying ‘I want this’ and no-one really being able to say no, which led to things like the mishandling of AoS launch. A choice quote regarding the ‘silly’ rules:

And I think the problem was kind of a… the telephone game. Basically, to give an example of the problem, a manager on high gets offered a banana and says “I don’t fancy eating that banana”. The next manager, one rung down from them, who wants to be seen to be doing a good job says “oh, my boss does not like eating bananas, so I’ll stop sending bananas his way.” It might have been because that particular banana wasn’t what he wanted, or he wasn’t in the mood for a banana, but it results in all bananas being embargoed. And it carries on. “Top boss doesn’t like fruit!” says the next manager down, “Well, let’s not produce anything with fruit.” Then eventually it’s “So, the manager at the top doesn’t like eating food, never send food his way.”

It was a tense time, lots of pressure, and everyone was trying to please the person above them a little bit too much. From what I can tell it’s not quite as much of an issue these days. But what it meant was that if Top Manager at the top said “That rule is really colourful, and makes people play the game in a different way that’s not just rolling dice, that’s really cool”, that then trickles down to the rules team being told to add more silly rules, and it ends up with someone in the team going through all the compendiums replacing some rules that were more like “+1 to hit” with “+1 to hit… if it’s raining outside!”.

Hopefully things are getting better now, apparently a lot of the senior management left with Kirby, but GW undeniably lost a lot of talent and good will through those years.

Also, this, which is what I’ve been trying to explain for ages:

The background team would write all the background and we’d go and apply rules to that. So miniatures would get made first, then narrative background gets written and rules would get written to fit the background and miniatures. The rules were very much the last thought in the process, and that was like the microcosm of how it was like at GW at that point. That was the case for everything.

Hopefully things have improved there as well, but the above two quotes really illustrate why GW has historically not been that good at rules for their games, and it’s not because the rules writers are ‘lazy’!

Part 1 of interview: https://www.goonhammer.com/the-goonh...igmar-and-40k/

[Hootman]

Apparently they're un-Legends-ing the regular 'Big Mek with KFF' with the new book. So, either they abruptly stopped caring about whether things have an accessible model, or we're getting a new one.

Rules tweaks:
1. It only effects <Clan> models. No more bringing Deffskullz Mekboyz and Grot Gunz as Turn 1 shielding and backline support for my Evil Sunz front-runners.
2. The 5+ Invul applies all the time, even in combat. That's a heck of a thing, but unless we can make the Big Mek more mobile, it'll only matter when our opponents come charge us. Because...
3. The Big Mek has no weapon options. Choppa, Slugga, done. No Killsaws, no Kombi-anything, just hide under your silly force field and get left behind when the Boyz finish footslogging up and charge. No charging into combat for this lad.
4. It doesn't work at all while inside a vehicle. That's more in line with the "If it's in a Transport, then it is literally Not On The Table, therefore it's rules all do nothing" rule that they have right now, but it's also a removal of a decade-plus old trick that was a unique skill of exactly this model. So I'm a bit miffed.

(Also, the Not On The Table rule is horse poo. They're right there. I put a representative mini in the back of my Trukk, we can both see him. It's Open-Topped, for Mork's sake. Let me actually play Freebootaz in a tactical way instead of getting shot in the face Turn 1. Also, Ship-Trukks.)

So, yeah, buffed-but-nerfed. At least it seems to have been done in a fair way. Bring it in line with the way rules tend to work now, streamline it (make it boring...), and hopefully give us a model that isn't a 2lb brick.

Points might have gone down, at least. 75pts was always a bit steep for a character who couldn't fight or shoot worth a damn, even if his one buff was useful. Now he's expected to be around 45pts or so.

Also, using the same math, Thraka should be around 210pts. Which would be pretty playable, in my opinion.

[Avaris]

Also, using the same math, Thraka should be around 210pts. Which would be pretty playable, in my opinion.

He’s 285 according to Goonhammer’s review of the book.

[Brookshw]

Apparently they're un-Legends-ing the regular 'Big Mek with KFF' with the new book. So, either they abruptly stopped caring about whether things have an accessible model, or we're getting a new one.

I'm really hoping for the new model option (though the last wasn't bad). Especially after the disappointment Ghaz turned out the be.

[Renegade Paladin]

So what would have made Ghazghkull not a disappointment? Limiting him to 9 wounds? As he is, he presents a knotty tactical problem since if he's facing an army that can't reliably put out at least 4 wounds to a T7, 2+, 4++ body in three different phases, he's going to take enough turns to kill that he's going to make it to CC and blender something, and for most armies actually pulling that off means spending so much firepower that the rest of the Orks are going to get away intact and start wrecking things.

[Avaris]

So what would have made Ghazghkull not a disappointment? Limiting him to 9 wounds? As he is, he presents a knotty tactical problem since if he's facing an army that can't reliably put out at least 4 wounds to a T7, 2+, 4++ body in three different phases, he's going to take enough turns to kill that he's going to make it to CC and blender something, and for most armies actually pulling that off means spending so much firepower that the rest of the Orks are going to get away intact and start wrecking things.

Exactly what I’m thinking: limiting him to 9 wounds wouldn’t make much difference, as he’s already only able to take 4 wounds/turn from shooting. While it’s perfectly possible to build an army that can reliably wound him in multiple phases, in practice I don’t expect many will be able to do so without compromising on other aspects of their list. If he becomes very popular people can adapt to him, if not he remains a decent challenge when faced but not overwhelming.

[Blackhawk748]

Hopefully things have improved there as well, but the above two quotes really illustrate why GW has historically not been that good at rules for their games, and it’s not because the rules writers are ‘lazy’!

Part 1 of interview: https://www.goonhammer.com/the-goonh...igmar-and-40k/

Except you can still write good rules for what it's SUPPOSED to be and they can barely do that half the time. I mean, yes, this just shows how much of a dumpster fire the place has been but it still seems like they have this issue.

Apparently they're un-Legends-ing the regular 'Big Mek with KFF' with the new book. So, either they abruptly stopped caring about whether things have an accessible model, or we're getting a new one.

Rules tweaks:
1. It only effects <Clan> models. No more bringing Deffskullz Mekboyz and Grot Gunz as Turn 1 shielding and backline support for my Evil Sunz front-runners.
2. The 5+ Invul applies all the time, even in combat. That's a heck of a thing, but unless we can make the Big Mek more mobile, it'll only matter when our opponents come charge us. Because...
3. The Big Mek has no weapon options. Choppa, Slugga, done. No Killsaws, no Kombi-anything, just hide under your silly force field and get left behind when the Boyz finish footslogging up and charge. No charging into combat for this lad.
4. It doesn't work at all while inside a vehicle. That's more in line with the "If it's in a Transport, then it is literally Not On The Table, therefore it's rules all do nothing" rule that they have right now, but it's also a removal of a decade-plus old trick that was a unique skill of exactly this model. So I'm a bit miffed.

(Also, the Not On The Table rule is horse poo. They're right there. I put a representative mini in the back of my Trukk, we can both see him. It's Open-Topped, for Mork's sake. Let me actually play Freebootaz in a tactical way instead of getting shot in the face Turn 1. Also, Ship-Trukks.)

So, yeah, buffed-but-nerfed. At least it seems to have been done in a fair way. Bring it in line with the way rules tend to work now, streamline it (make it boring...), and hopefully give us a model that isn't a 2lb brick.

Points might have gone down, at least. 75pts was always a bit steep for a character who couldn't fight or shoot worth a damn, even if his one buff was useful. Now he's expected to be around 45pts or so.

Also, using the same math, Thraka should be around 210pts. Which would be pretty playable, in my opinion.

Well at least it exists. Personally my KFF Mek has been made from a Runtherd because I hated the official one

So what would have made Ghazghkull not a disappointment? Limiting him to 9 wounds? As he is, he presents a knotty tactical problem since if he's facing an army that can't reliably put out at least 4 wounds to a T7, 2+, 4++ body in three different phases, he's going to take enough turns to kill that he's going to make it to CC and blender something, and for most armies actually pulling that off means spending so much firepower that the rest of the Orks are going to get away intact and start wrecking things.

Make him Infantry so I can actually use my Strats on him and he can get buffed by his own Auras? Cuz as he sits I can nearly get three Warbosses for one of him

[Forum Explorer]

So what would have made Ghazghkull not a disappointment? Limiting him to 9 wounds? As he is, he presents a knotty tactical problem since if he's facing an army that can't reliably put out at least 4 wounds to a T7, 2+, 4++ body in three different phases, he's going to take enough turns to kill that he's going to make it to CC and blender something, and for most armies actually pulling that off means spending so much firepower that the rest of the Orks are going to get away intact and start wrecking things.

If he Infantry, he would be a monster to deal with. Pair him with a Painboy, and you are now only dealing 4-D3 damage a turn (at least until you get to the fight phase)

Alternatively, make him 16 wounds.

But mostly, I just think he's over costed. If he was under 250, I think he'd be good. As is he works best with a tide of Boyz but he costs more than an entire squad of 30.

[Renegade Paladin]

Well, if gameplay bears that out we can expect a points cost reduction before the year is out. I suppose we'll find out, though perhaps slower than normal with the COVID-19 outbreak shuttering tournaments.

[LeSwordfish]

What's everyone else working on while everything's shut down? With my usual impeccable grasp of the zeitgeist, I'm working on some Iron Hands.

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[Blackhawk748]

The Apocalypse happened and I still had to go to work, so nothing for models coming out of me because I'm too busy planning DnD, working overtime and writing.

Yes, my Ad Mech are still glaring at me from their sprue.

[LansXero]

Hopefully things have improved there as well, but the above two quotes really illustrate why GW has historically not been that good at rules for their games, and it’s not because the rules writers are ‘lazy’!

Because forgetting to put points for their flagship unit, the only one with a new model even, in a 40$ book clearly is due to "miniatures first, background later, rules last" design. No, its because their quality control is crap, much like having Space Wolves getting release day errata. Thats a lack of professionalism, and has nothing to do with miniatures or background.

For example, if the miniature is 'Flying SoB with glowy sword" and thats just "melee seraphins" in the background, it still can have whatever as rules. It can have "MWs on 6s after charging" like Intercessors do, it can have "blessed power swords" for a death-to-the-false-emperor copy but vs chaos, etc. A ton of rules stuff doesnt have to be shown in the model or can be added to make a unit viable and interesting, its got nothing to do with the design sequence, and all to do with creativity, talent and willingness from the rules team. So yes, saying they are unmotivated / lazy / lacking is entirely fair and has nothing to do with the ad-nauseam repeated argument of "but teh minis get made first"

Best example? The SoB beta codex. its a piece of trash that includes no new models and no new background, its 100% a rules design job, and completely not worth paying for it, yet it got a price tag slapped on.

[Don Qui Ho Tep]

Hopefully things are getting better now, apparently a lot of the senior management left with Kirby, but GW undeniably lost a lot of talent and good will through those years.

Also, this, which is what I’ve been trying to explain for ages:

Hopefully things have improved there as well, but the above two quotes really illustrate why GW has historically not been that good at rules for their games, and it’s not because the rules writers are ‘lazy’!

Part 1 of interview: https://www.goonhammer.com/the-goonh...igmar-and-40k/

Thanks, for linking, Avaris. I thought it was a really interesting interview. I haven't read Parts 2 and 3 yet but I'm interested in these little peaks behind the curtain - more so I'm interested in what does "rules design" actually look like, as a career? I can't quite wrap my head around what a 9-5 job looks like for an army painter, or a background writer. I was out of the hobby during the End Times and AoS relaunch so I was not as emotionally invested, but the interview did a good job of reminding me how poorly the release was handled - I didn't realize GW didn't have social media at that time. No Warhammer Community, no Forums - that's a great way for your audience to turn on you.

Because forgetting to put points for their flagship unit, the only one with a new model even, in a 40$ book clearly is due to "miniatures first, background later, rules last" design. No, its because their quality control is crap, much like having Space Wolves getting release day errata. Thats a lack of professionalism, and has nothing to do with miniatures or background.

For example, if the miniature is 'Flying SoB with glowy sword" and thats just "melee seraphins" in the background, it still can have whatever as rules. It can have "MWs on 6s after charging" like Intercessors do, it can have "blessed power swords" for a death-to-the-false-emperor copy but vs chaos, etc. A ton of rules stuff doesnt have to be shown in the model or can be added to make a unit viable and interesting, its got nothing to do with the design sequence, and all to do with creativity, talent and willingness from the rules team. So yes, saying they are unmotivated / lazy / lacking is entirely fair and has nothing to do with the ad-nauseam repeated argument of "but teh minis get made first"

Best example? The SoB beta codex. its a piece of trash that includes no new models and no new background, its 100% a rules design job, and completely not worth paying for it, yet it got a price tag slapped on.

This is an interesting reply and I wonder if the truth is somewhere between two extremes. I imagine they're not given the model in a vacuum - not only does the background come with it but the design team has to send a couple of notes on how they're supposed to work within the army. That said it's not an excuse for bad rules writing, of course. And I think their recent strategy of releasing and rereleasing over and over again has got far ahead of their capacity to review. I'm sure it's hard to stay relevant when new games are launching left and right, but GW has had a lot of staying power and I think part of maintaining goodwill with a fanbase is trusting them enough to stick with you, if the thing that you produce is worth sticking around for. Clearly, both the Sisters Beta and the Sisters Official has left a lot of people dissatisfied. For my own part, I just bought a new Seraphon Army and am having a lot of fun getting into the AoS system. Right now playing 40k as anything other than 1000 point Maelstrom just sounds exhausting, and as I work through my backlog during the social distancing I find myself less and less eager to go back to painting power armor.

What's everyone else working on while everything's shut down? With my usual impeccable grasp of the zeitgeist, I'm working on some Iron Hands.

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Looking good, LeSwordfish! I like the pastel orange and red you've got going on, I think the red of the gun casings and shoulder pads is a good reverse triangle of focus that helps make more clear the silhouette of the model. Forgive my ignorance, but why are these Iron Hands orange? Is it a successor?

I've been working mostly on AoS and Warcry stuff (link to my blog in my signature), but I'm about to try getting to work on my Demon Engines and Lord Discordants - hopefully I'll be posting pictures of them soon!

[Avaris]

Because forgetting to put points for their flagship unit, the only one with a new model even, in a 40$ book clearly is due to "miniatures first, background later, rules last" design. No, its because their quality control is crap, much like having Space Wolves getting release day errata. Thats a lack of professionalism, and has nothing to do with miniatures or background.

Exactly? The point I’m trying to illustrate is ‘GW has/had terrible management structures, which are the reason why we see this sort of problem’. The missing points likely came about due to a lack of proof reading as it went to print and pressure from management to get it out the door. Similarly, the SW errata was due to a decision to change the rules last minute: despite what they claimed about printing deadlines at the time, I suspect it’s more likely that an older version of the file was sent to the printer in error, and again missed though proof reading when there is pressure from management to get it out the door.

Both of these are unprofessional and the result of poor management, and should not have happened. GW should do better. What they are not are evidence that the rules writers are lazy.

[Artanis]

The rules being bad is not evidence that the rules-writers are lazy.

Them thinking that having their playtesting consist of 1-2 games per week is worth bragging about, however, IS.

[Lord Torath]

What's everyone else working on while everything's shut down? With my usual impeccable grasp of the zeitgeist, I'm working on some Iron Hands.

*snip image of iron hands*

Those look great! I've been working on a color scheme for my fire dragons and painting a warlock. Have to post pictures later. Also finished a heavy plasma marine and painted one with a heavy bolter.

[Cheesegear]

...I'm working on some Iron Hands.

Being a massive fan of yellow and red, I don't like orange.
That being said, you've made it work... I think it's because of the red details and the black breaks it up.
Speaking of which, on some of them, it looks like you may need to go back over their belts.

I like the actual Grenade Launcher. Bonus points if you strap a Bolt Rifle to him, as well.

[LeSwordfish]

Looking good, LeSwordfish! I like the pastel orange and red you've got going on, I think the red of the gun casings and shoulder pads is a good reverse triangle of focus that helps make more clear the silhouette of the model. Forgive my ignorance, but why are these Iron Hands orange? Is it a successor?

Thanks! I had some friends who are much more skilled painters help me with the colour schemes. They are indeed successors - the Ember Claws or something like that: I wanted to do Iron Hands even before they got their book, but painting black is both boring and difficult.

Being a massive fan of yellow and red, I don't like orange.
That being said, you've made it work... I think it's because of the red details and the black breaks it up.

Thanks! It's got what I want from space marines, which is to hit the halfway point between "Knight in Armour" and "plasticky hazmat suit". I think they're going to look great en masse - I've got the better part of Dark Imperium and a Start Collecting box to go.

[Destro_Yersul]

How did you do the bases? Snow is a tricky effect to get right.

[Lord Torath]

As promised, here are some shots of what I'm currently working on. (I know you were all waiting eagerly to see! )

Spoiler: WIP

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My Heavy Bolter and Heavy Plasma Devastators:


My Warlock WIP (with a finished one for comparison)


Fire Dragon Color test (with other aspect warriors for comparison):


My Avatar of Khaine. I'm going for a molten green look rather than a molten orange look. The sword will eventually gain a similar effect.


Finally, a bit of terrain I'm working on as a gift for my usual opponent:

Also, anyone have any recommendations for re-attaching the top half of the warlock's Singing Spear in such a way that it won't just break off the next time I use it? Any help would be much appreciated!

[LeSwordfish]

How did you do the bases? Snow is a tricky effect to get right.

It's just Valhallan Blizzard, GW's standard snow "texture paint". I'm glad you like it because I think it's turned out pretty badly, personally - horrible and patchy. (I'm finding Valhallan Blizzard dries much smaller than it is when wet, so I'm thinking it needs a couple of "coats" to come out right.) I've nearly finished my Lieutenants and Ancient, so will probably get a spare base and do some practice snow before doing theirs, just to get an idea of what i'm thinking of by "this looks good".

[Requizen]

It's just Valhallan Blizzard, GW's standard snow "texture paint". I'm glad you like it because I think it's turned out pretty badly, personally - horrible and patchy. (I'm finding Valhallan Blizzard dries much smaller than it is when wet, so I'm thinking it needs a couple of "coats" to come out right.) I've nearly finished my Lieutenants and Ancient, so will probably get a spare base and do some practice snow before doing theirs, just to get an idea of what i'm thinking of by "this looks good".

I actually like the slightly "patchy" look, with the industrial bases it seems like it's windblown or tracked snow, which gives it a nice effect.

[tyckspoon]

[/Spoiler]Also, anyone have any recommendations for re-attaching the top half of the warlock's Singing Spear in such a way that it won't just break off the next time I use it? Any help would be much appreciated!

Pin it - drill into the inside of the hand a little bit, drill up into the shaft of the spear, insert a bit of wire in the holes you made, glue that in place. If you don't mind the spear becoming a little bit shorter you could also try just hollowing out the inside of the hand and then putting the spear shaft down inside that, so the spear above the hand is actually supported by the hand and can have glue contact all around it.

[Lord Torath]

Pin it - drill into the inside of the hand a little bit, drill up into the shaft of the spear, insert a bit of wire in the holes you made, glue that in place. If you don't mind the spear becoming a little bit shorter you could also try just hollowing out the inside of the hand and then putting the spear shaft down inside that, so the spear above the hand is actually supported by the hand and can have glue contact all around it.

It's a little narrow to pin, less than 2 mm in diameter. My previous pin jobs have used a 1/16" drill (1.58 mm) bit and 16-gage (1.3 mm) galvanized steel wire.

Maybe it's time for a dedicated pin vice.

Drilling into the hand could work, too. I just need to find the appropriately sized drill bit. I've got a good selection, to that shouldn't be too hard.