Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXIX: Miracle on 39th Thread

[Aresneo]

You're absolutely right, but I'm going to ask a question which I think is quite pertinent: So what?

What else is happened with the LotR licence that makes that important? There are no new films planned, no animated series, no stage show, not even a Netflix-exclusive series like The Witcher or Castlevania... Why is holding on to LotR so important? I genuinely don't believe it makes them any profit any more, and holding on to the licence just for the sake of doing so is hardly a guarantee of quality. Surely an inferior product means less sales, which means greater loss, which means even less quality... It's a downward spiral that's waiting to happen, if it isn't already.

There is an amazon prime Lord of the Rings show currently in development. It's also likely a prestige thing, having the licence for the most iconic fantasy series ever likely sounds good to shareholders.

I guess what it really means is that Psychic Awakening: Pariah has probably already been written and printed, and is probably on a boat from China as we speak. Customs and delays due to lockdown aside, they know that it exists and now it's just a matter of release and distribution, so they can talk about it as much as they like.
The reason we can't have Psychic Awakening book #9 for Harlequins and Deathwatch is because, on top of their writers and play-testers being in isolation, they can't place an order to get it made and have no way to get it to Nottingham. Which seems like folly to me - by the end of May lockdown will *probably* come to an end, and everyone is going to rush out to spend money and make up for lost time, so why not ensure that there's a product ready and waiting for them?

Pariah is Psychic Awakening book 9. As for the Harlequins and Deathwatch not getting a book I have a feeling that it was planned and then cancelled when the Covid-19 shutdowns occurred as a way of trying to preserve the release schedule of likely more profitable products. I'm not sure why GW put those two in a single book, since Harlequins are the worst selling army ever according to former GW staff and Deathwatch also appear to have poor sales thanks to how many models they share with general space marines.

[Wraith]

In Australia, our Prime Minister (who doesn't have COVID) said lockdown might extend to October.
Our economy will tank long before then. Nobody believes lockdown will go to October. It'll be more a case of 'If you are high-risk, or you live with the same (unless you're a healthcare worker, and then the people you live with just have to hack it), you're on lockdown. Everyone else get back to work...Please. We literally need you to.'

In the UK: Officially there is no plan to end lockdown at all, not even to phase it out over time - the government just hasn't got the hard data to make an informed decision. Unofficially, the rumour is that we're following the pattern set by China - they went into lockdown at the end of February and are just about starting to lift it now, so 'about 12 weeks' seems to be what we're hoping for. That would be end of May/early June, all being well.

...You say that like a whole bunch of people haven't lost their jobs or seen their workhours plummet, and that when all this is over, that people will even have money to spend.

There's going to be a recession, no doubt about it at all. Most people will be buying food and paying rent while trying to rebuild their lives in a post-COVID world, and it's going to be especially tough on businesses specialising in luxury items like toy soldiers.

But there will be SOME people out there who weren't affected very much and now have a renewed interest in entertainment.
It's GW's obligation as a business to try and squeeze some money out of THOSE people as soon as possible, for several reasons.
One is, GW needs to keep its own workforce busy and get as much out of its writers, artists and work-at-home personnel as they can in order to get some value out of them; so, why not have them work on a big, interesting project ready to launch at the first opportunity? They can't get anything out of their retail workforce, so they need to be as efficient with their time and resources as possible under the circumstances and having their retail workforce AND their development team idle seems like a terrible idea.
Secondly, what happens if they DON'T prepare a big launch for a 'back to normal' celebration and ANOTHER gaming company does it first, sucking up all the marketing space and what little disposable income the public has first? Run a business ethically by all means, don't target your products at people who are struggling to eat, but also... don;t sit around and let your competition get the jump on you at the one time you really need to hit the ground running and get back to normal as quickly as possible, y'know?

There is an amazon prime Lord of the Rings show currently in development.

Okay, that's the answer I was looking for. Prestige is one thing, but being able to tie it to an actual event or product makes more sense.

Pariah is Psychic Awakening book 9.

I beg your pardon, I miscounted. The spirit of the comment is still the same though; 10 is a nice round number, why not make it the big, blow-out "Welcome back to meeting other human beings in public again!" extravaganza?

[9mm]

What else is happened with the LotR licence that makes that important? There are no new films planned, no animated series, no stage show, not even a Netflix-exclusive series like The Witcher or Castlevania... Why is holding on to LotR so important? I genuinely don't believe it makes them any profit any more, and holding on to the licence just for the sake of doing so is hardly a guarantee of quality. Surely an inferior product means less sales, which means greater loss, which means even less quality... It's a downward spiral that's waiting to happen, if it isn't already.

you answer your own question; its turning a profit. Just not in your neck of the woods.

I beg your pardon, I miscounted. The spirit of the comment is still the same though; 10 is a nice round number, why not make it the big, blow-out "Welcome back to meeting other human beings in public again!" extravaganza?

one of the things they casually said in the last preview is they've gone over around half of what they planned for Adepticon. I think there is a big Release in the pipe but they are dragging their feet till they have a better idea what the deployment schedule will be.

[Cheesegear]

I think there is a big Release in the pipe but they are dragging their feet till they have a better idea what the deployment schedule will be.

If the pattern holds true, my guess is 9th Ed.

[Renegade Paladin]

If the pattern holds true, my guess is 9th Ed.

Considering they said at the outset this was going to be a living edition, I think they're going to try to stretch it out at least a little more than 7th. They took down the Forge World indices, so I imagine we're about due for the new Forge World rules they promised when they announced they were going to do that.

[Borgh]

But there will be SOME people out there who weren't affected very much and now have a renewed interest in entertainment.

Just taking myself as a example: I took my laptop home, put it on my desk and now all my coworkers are in 2D. That is literally all that changed for me. We will probably go into recession so i'm not buying a new car right now but I'm not eating out or going to bars either so my budget is currently positive compared to normal.

I'm the kind of work-from-home sod that GW is hoping will keep them afloat over the next year. And I don't even need rules: a good paiting project or two is plenty.

Two or three missed dinners means I'm buying the Lion.

[snowblizz]

Honestly, if I was in charge at GW. I'd be working on rules/digital releases. Interesting scenarios and things people can do without going out to buy new minis.

Literally the only thing GW has ever cared about is selling models. Anything else they do is, grudingly, done with the hope they might sell more models down the line.

[Renegade Paladin]

Literally the only thing GW has ever cared about is selling models. Anything else they do is, grudingly, done with the hope they might sell more models down the line.

Have to wonder what would have happened if Gary Gygax had managed to sell them the D&D license back in the day.

[Voidhawk]

Have to wonder what would have happened if Gary Gygax had managed to sell them the D&D license back in the day.

I just threw up in my mouth imagining that. WotC are no angels, and Hasbro have mega-corp disinterest in anything not the bottom line, but GW's incompetence is legendary.

[Renegade Paladin]

I just threw up in my mouth imagining that. WotC are no angels, and Hasbro have mega-corp disinterest in anything not the bottom line, but GW's incompetence is legendary.

I'm talking way back in the beginning. He sent copies of the original boxed set to them in 1975 and they contracted for exclusive rights to distribute the game in Europe for three years. When TSR started losing money in the mid-80s he tried to arrange a merger with GW, which only fell through because Ian Livingstone wanted to remain independent. (Source: Of Dice and Men by David Ewalt, pages 97 and 165.) Exposure to the game is what prompted them to move into wargaming rather than their original business model of making classic game sets, backgammon, etc.

[Avaris]

Considering they said at the outset this was going to be a living edition, I think they're going to try to stretch it out at least a little more than 7th. They took down the Forge World indices, so I imagine we're about due for the new Forge World rules they promised when they announced they were going to do that.

Question is, is the edition fit for purpose as a ‘living edition’? I’m not quite sure it is, there are a few bugs that need ironing out first, like we saw with AoS Soul Wars being essentially a fix to many of the rules problems in what was intended as the base rules. I predict we’ll see a small edition change that incorporates errata and their learning around rules templating, but which doesn’t invalidate older rules.

[Don Qui Ho Tep]

I think it would be pretty bad faith to launch a new edition after selling several codex supplements and campaign books, I think. And given that many people are not going to have the opportunity to get any kind of game in for the next few months, people won't even get a chance to use their new rules/models.

More wishlisting, but wouldn't it be nice if instead they released a "just the datasheets" book that collected all the rules you needed from all the white dwarfs and supplements that have come out in the past three years?

To Avaris: I don't think there's anything in the edition itself that can't be fixed through patching, but again, the absurd number of supplements and books flying around makes everything more difficult than it needs to be.

[Wraith]

40k 8.5 edition is a possibility, like an equivalent to the General's Handbook in AoS for example.
An "annual update" model similar to that would be quite a big announcement, and it would give GW the chance to change the stuff it wanted without alienating everyone who has bought a book in the last 6 months.

[Renegade Paladin]

40k 8.5 edition is a possibility, like an equivalent to the General's Handbook in AoS for example.
An "annual update" model similar to that would be quite a big announcement, and it would give GW the chance to change the stuff it wanted without alienating everyone who has bought a book in the last 6 months.

I mean, that's pretty much what Chapter Approved already is.

[Blackhawk748]

Have to wonder what would have happened if Gary Gygax had managed to sell them the D&D license back in the day.

It would be dead by this point. My bet is it would have been an interesting boxed game and that would be it. No 3.5 Ed with the 100+ splatbooks that is still turning up weird mechanical interactions nearly two decades later, no 4th ed that was well-intentioned but deeply flawed and no 5e.

Basically...it probably would have been Space Hulk.

[Forum Explorer]

I think it would be pretty bad faith to launch a new edition after selling several codex supplements and campaign books, I think. And given that many people are not going to have the opportunity to get any kind of game in for the next few months, people won't even get a chance to use their new rules/models.

More wishlisting, but wouldn't it be nice if instead they released a "just the datasheets" book that collected all the rules you needed from all the white dwarfs and supplements that have come out in the past three years?

To Avaris: I don't think there's anything in the edition itself that can't be fixed through patching, but again, the absurd number of supplements and books flying around makes everything more difficult than it needs to be.

The biggest thing I feel the edition needs is for cover to do stuff for more people than just infantry. Like my cousin and I for the first time since 8th began, actually got a cover save for his Tanks and my Wraithlord because we are playing on Tabletop Simulator where the terrain is much bigger. But terrain in general needs to do more IMO. Ruins work more or less fine (You shouldn't need fly to interact with the upper levels, and magic boxes are all kinds of stupid.), but things like Forests, Craters and stuff should do more.

[Renegade Paladin]

Yeah, the cover and terrain system is the only thing that really needs to change, but they could easily just do that in Chapter Approved. Hell, they already do; they've introduced or changed terrain rules in every edition of it so far. They just haven't changed them to anything useful.

[snowblizz]

It would be dead by this point. My bet is it would have been an interesting boxed game and that would be it. No 3.5 Ed with the 100+ splatbooks that is still turning up weird mechanical interactions nearly two decades later, no 4th ed that was well-intentioned but deeply flawed and no 5e.

Well they did kill Warhammer. Oh wait you are talking about D&D...

I think it would be pretty bad faith to launch a new edition after selling several codex supplements and campaign books, I think. And given that many people are not going to have the opportunity to get any kind of game in for the next few months, people won't even get a chance to use their new rules/models.

That has never stopped them before. 3rd edition was when most of seeds of codex supplements and campaignbooks were introduced. All cleared out for next edition. And 3rd edition itself was an ever more radical cleansweep of rules. Sisters of Battle had a 2nd ed codex out for 6 months when it all went.

40k 8.5 edition is a possibility, like an equivalent to the General's Handbook in AoS for example.
An "annual update" model similar to that would be quite a big announcement, and it would give GW the chance to change the stuff it wanted without alienating everyone who has bought a book in the last 6 months.

A kind of Prometheus approach. Not sure GW is able to work with that. I wonder outside of software has anyone really managed to? All the wargames I incidentally follow because I read Wargames Illustrated has the problem of "old books" and tossing them out. Flames of War, SAGA and so on, anything that sells you a book with rules really.

[Cheesegear]

I think it would be pretty bad faith to launch a new edition after selling several codex supplements and campaign books, I think.

You mean like 6th-7th, and 7th-8th, did?
Don't even get me started on how dog**** Codex: Eye of Terror was.

And given that many people are not going to have the opportunity to get any kind of game in for the next few months, people won't even get a chance to use their new rules/models.

...So, it's the end of 7th Ed. all over again?
Or maybe you're thinking of Shadow War: Armageddon?

To Avaris: I don't think there's anything in the edition itself that can't be fixed through patching

If we were working in the digital age, no.
Unfortunately, we work with hard copies. So any 'patches' to the game, end up being a new rulebook.
And while GW doesn't call it AoS 2nd Ed., that's what it is.

[Don Qui Ho Tep]

You mean like 6th-7th, and 7th-8th, did?
Don't even get me started on how dog**** Codex: Eye of Terror was.



...So, it's the end of 7th Ed. all over again?
Or maybe you're thinking of Shadow War: Armageddon?



If we were working in the digital age, no.
Unfortunately, we work with hard copies. So any 'patches' to the game, end up being a new rulebook.
And while GW doesn't call it AoS 2nd Ed., that's what it is.

Here's what I've been doing a bad job of trying to say:

The current release system is inefficient and haphazard, and clearly based around selling books and models rather than making an interesting narrative or game. This could be solved in one of two ways: a big general re-release that includes all updates, or starting out fresh. Of the two options, my preference would be to release an updated tome that contains everything - new datasheets, stratagems, everything. Things that can be updated digitally (like points) should be. Go online to get the points, which can be updated daily even. Then but a kibosh on supplements and events for a while, and take that time to develop a meaningful and interesting campaign-style event. How often is often enough? Maybe every other year? Certainly not every few months.

I don't have anything against a new edition in principle - and the only thing I'd be sore about would be Faith and Fury, because I played several games using Daemonkin and Viglus - but a lot of people would have to be very put out. I recognize they've done this before, but I've only been back in the hobby for a little over a year so my memory is short, and it doesn't make it any less frustrating. And the fact is that there won't be any games for a while (excepting Tabletop, people who's family/flatmates play games, and people who break social isolation/quarantine for a game*), and certainly no major tournaments. I can't believe that even GW would be tone-death enough to announce the release of 9th edition, during a global pandemic, before the last Psychic Awakening book even comes out.

*I admit that I did do that a few weeks ago to play Warcry with a buddy, and I really shouldn't have - but since our governor issued a stay-at-home order I've respected that.

[LeSwordfish]

How should I assemble my next two units of intercessors? I've got two squads of five with Bolt Rifles, AGLs, and Powerfists - I'm thinking at least five should be Stalker Bolt Rifles, but now I have to leave Devastator Doctrine I probably don't want both squads equipped with heavy weapons (and don't have the parts to convert them as I wish.) Should I build five with Auto Bolt rifles? What about the sargeants? I have an extra ETB intercessor so could build a spare sargeant, perhaps with a thunder hammer or chainsword. (Or is a Primaris Lieutenant with a Master Crafted Stalker Bolt Rifle worth having, even if he would be my fourth Lieutenant?)

[Renegade Paladin]

How should I assemble my next two units of intercessors? I've got two squads of five with Bolt Rifles, AGLs, and Powerfists - I'm thinking at least five should be Stalker Bolt Rifles, but now I have to leave Devastator Doctrine I probably don't want both squads equipped with heavy weapons (and don't have the parts to convert them as I wish.) Should I build five with Auto Bolt rifles? What about the sargeants? I have an extra ETB intercessor so could build a spare sargeant, perhaps with a thunder hammer or chainsword. (Or is a Primaris Lieutenant with a Master Crafted Stalker Bolt Rifle worth having, even if he would be my fourth Lieutenant?)

I won't speak to the worthiness of the build, but Lieutenants do come two to a datasheet, so you can have six of them on the field if you really want.

[LeSwordfish]

I won't speak to the worthiness of the build, but Lieutenants do come two to a datasheet, so you can have six of them on the field if you really want.

Useful to know, but I can't imagine why I would want six of them (or ever more than one, really).

[PraetorDragoon]

Useful to know, but I can't imagine why I would want six of them (or ever more than one, really).

So you can field all their unique sculpts at the same time.

[Cheesegear]

I'm thinking at least five should be Stalker Bolt Rifles, but now I have to leave Devastator Doctrine I probably don't want both squads equipped with heavy weapons (and don't have the parts to convert them as I wish.) Should I build five with Auto Bolt rifles? What about the sargeants?

Without Devastator Doctrine all day, every day, Stalkers are a lot less good than they used to be. Bringing Bolt Rifles back to the fore, more or less.
Auto Bolt Rifles aren't worth it all, unless you're Chapter Tactics'ing with the Advance and Shoot, no penalties... Which you probably aren't. If Auto Bolt Rifles are likely to be your thing, you're better off with Infiltrators/Incursors. But, that ship has already sailed, and you have the Intercessors on you...So...Back to Bolt Rifles?

As for Intercessor Sergeants; I, personally, have never found value outside of Chainswords. Intellectually, I can see value out of giving the Sergeant a Power Fist. But, until the entire unit can bring the pain, I'd rather see the Points spent somewhere else.

[LeSwordfish]

Without Devastator Doctrine all day, every day, Stalkers are a lot less good than they used to be. Bringing Bolt Rifles back to the fore, more or less.
Auto Bolt Rifles aren't worth it all, unless you're Chapter Tactics'ing with the Advance and Shoot, no penalties... Which you probably aren't. If Auto Bolt Rifles are likely to be your thing, you're better off with Infiltrators/Incursors. But, that ship has already sailed, and you have the Intercessors on you...So...Back to Bolt Rifles?

Just one of those "I like the model" things, yeah. I'm planning on buying the Start Collecting Vanguard and making use of the Infiltrators from that (plus yet another Lieutenant) as well as the Eliminators and Suppressors I actually want, but I'm not enough into the models to buy them seperately.

As for Intercessor Sergeants; I, personally, have never found value outside of Chainswords. Intellectually, I can see value out of giving the Sergeant a Power Fist. But, until the entire unit can bring the pain, I'd rather see the Points spent somewhere else.

Chainswords seem the least valuable to me, given that you lose your ranged weapon. They're cool looking but i wouldnt take one from a competitive perspective wait no i r dumb, a Chainsword is a standard part of the Intercessor Sargeant list, so he can indeed have Chainsword and Bolt rifle, neato! I figure two chainswords and a Primaris Lieutenant will do nicely, then.

[Renegade Paladin]

Useful to know, but I can't imagine why I would want six of them (or ever more than one, really).

Your stated objection was that it would be your fourth Lieutenant, which I took to be a reference to believing the rule of 3 would prevent you from fielding all of them. I can't imagine why you'd want to either (except to give ALL the re-rolls to wound), but there it is. I approach rules discussions as a TO because I am one; I'm more concerned with whether or not it's legal than if it's a good idea.

[bluntpencil]

Your stated objection was that it would be your fourth Lieutenant, which I took to be a reference to believing the rule of 3 would prevent you from fielding all of them. I can't imagine why you'd want to either (except to give ALL the re-rolls to wound), but there it is. I approach rules discussions as a TO because I am one; I'm more concerned with whether or not it's legal than if it's a good idea.

You get 2 Lieutenants per choice, so you can take 6 before the Rule of 3 is an issue.

[Renegade Paladin]

You get 2 Lieutenants per choice, so you can take 6 before the Rule of 3 is an issue.

... Yes, that's exactly what I said.

[Brookshw]

Just taking myself as a example: I took my laptop home, put it on my desk and now all my coworkers are in 2D. That is literally all that changed for me. We will probably go into recession so i'm not buying a new car right now but I'm not eating out or going to bars either so my budget is currently positive compared to normal.

I'm the kind of work-from-home sod that GW is hoping will keep them afloat over the next year. And I don't even need rules: a good paiting project or two is plenty.

Two or three missed dinners means I'm buying the Lion.

Yeah, this basically. Heck, by saving on commuting and not having to pay for childcare I'm actually up a few grand a month. Actually, GW might be benefiting more from me now because I'm specifically purchasing stuff from my local independent game store and book store to support them, which inevitably ends up being GW/Black Library stuff. The kicker is, I don't really care about any of the stuff I'm purchasing and wouldn't have spent the money in other circumstances (though in hindsight I've switched to purchasing gift cards so that the stores are able to take in money now).