Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXIX: Miracle on 39th Thread

[Forum Explorer]

Sure. My gamestore is/was selling out of Sisters kits too...To Sisters players.
To my knowledge, nobody in my meta who wasn't already playing Sororitas, has bought any Sororitas models. To my knowledge, nobody in my meta has said "I want to start a new army...I know! Sororitas! Of course! It's full of stars."

It's easy to get Sororitas players, to buy Sororitas.
The hard part of selling models, is "How do we sell Leman Russes to Tyranid players?"

You're trying to grow your market, not keep it the exact same size - if not smaller.

There was one or two Sisters players in my meta before the new Sisters came out. So we've definitely got some new players as well. At the very least, me.

[Cheesegear]

I'm sure some people will still do it, but I haven't seen many GSC/Nid lists using Cult Russes or allying in guard......

I remember Chapter Approved bringing back Looted Wagons. Me, being like "GW you magnificent bastards. Selling Leman Russes to Ork players. Now you're getting it!"
Then reading it, first words; 'Open Play Only.'
...Nevermind.

[Cheesegear]

Kill Team Guide to Deathwatch

Spoiler: Special Rules

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And They Shall Know No Fear: Like every Astartes Team, Deathwatch models can re-roll Nerve tests. Remembering that with their base Leadership of 8, in order to even think about failing a Nerve test, 3 of your models must already be Shaken or OoA.

Transhuman Physiology: Again, like every Astartes Team, you ignore the To Hit penalties from one Flesh Wound on your model. Remember that you're still easier to Injure, and you have to take Nerve tests. This rule is not 'immune to one Flesh Wound'.

Special Issue Ammunition: Ah, the thing that makes Deathwatch actually special; Special Ammo. Whenever a model fires a Bolt weapon, choose one of the following:

• Dragonfire Bolt; +1 to hit vs. an Obscured target. Basically cancels out Obscured. Except not really. A Lictor or Camo Cloak'd Scout will still be at -1 to hit, because you're not actually cancelling out Obscured.
• Hellfire Round; Always wound on a 2+. Can be strong, especially against T5 targets.
• Kraken Bolt; +6" range (+3" for Pistols), and improve AP by -1 (max. -2). Not only does this Bolt improve your long/short thresholds (and Rapid Fire range), but it also increases your AP on top. Very strong Bolt, especially for Intercessors and other Bolt weapons that already start with AP-1.
• Vengeance Round; -6" range (-3" for Pistols) and improve the AP of the gun by -2 (max. -3). Can be tricky to use, because -6" range will diminish your long/short range threshold. But, use 'em if you're close.

Special Ammo is extremely powerful regardless of what kind of opponent you face. You basically get to tailor, all the time. Every turn, every model (with a Bolt weapon), will usually get a +2 modifier to deal an unsaved wound to an enemy model. The problem? Bolt weapons for Deathwatch (except Boltguns) all have their cost increased. Still pretty strong. Especially when combined with...

Mission Tactics: At the start of the first Battle Round, choose one of your opponent's Datasheets; Your models re-roll 1s to wound vs. that Datasheet. In case that's confusing, if you were to pick, say, 'Scouts', that means you re-roll 1s to wound vs. all Scouts, Scout Gunners and Scout Sergeants - everything on the Datasheet. This is especially brutal against <Adeptus Astartes> Teams because the rules writers decided that Sternguard, Vanguard and Company Veterans all needed to be on the same Datasheet. This is an incredibly strong ability. Because between Special Ammo, and your ability to just pick model(s) in your opponents' Teams to just...Be Better, against...Well yeah. It's very powerful, because tailoring to your opponent is always - always - good.

Spoiler: Tactics

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Hellfire Shells: When a model with an [Infernus Heavy Bolter] makes an attack; Roll one to hit, and do D3 Mortal Wounds. Very strong Tactic, especially on a Sniper. Unlike Adeptus Astartes, Deathwatch only pay 1 CP for this Tactics, which means you can use it, and something else, in the same turn which is nice. It could be argued that the reason that it's only 1CP, is because Deathwatch are more expensive than Astartes, and, Infernus Heavy Bolters have some steep competition with Frag Cannons and this is one way to bridge that gap. Remember that Mortal Wounds are for 'chunking' multi-wound models, and no matter how many Mortal Wounds you deal, it only counts as 1 Injury.
QA&C Fail: The Tactic says Heavy Bolters, too. But no models in the Deathwatch Faction can take Heavy Bolters.

Rival Chapters: In the Shooting or Fight phase, choose two of your models within 2" of each other (). Both of those models re-roll (modifiable) 1s to hit. Pretty strong.

The Beheading (2): At the start of the Fight phase, your entire Team re-rolls to Hit vs. enemy Leaders.

Only in Death Does Duty End (2): When one of your models is taken OoA, it can immediately Fight or Shoot. Total garbage for 2CPs if your model goes OoA with Flesh Wounds on.

Tactical Disengagement: Your model Retreats 6", rather than 3" (Retreating is the one you do when you get Charged, instead of Overwatching). Additionally, the model may still shoot in the Shooting phase. ****. Yes.

Death to the Alien!: Choose a model when it Fights in the Fight phase. When targeting models without the <Imperium>, <Chaos> or <Unaligned> Keyword, generate an extra attack on a modified 5+.

My Armour is Contempt: Ignore Mortal Wounds (5+) for a phase.

Teleport Strike: [Reserves]. Throw up to three <Terminator> models on the board, 5" away from enemy models. A lot of players think that this means that they need to run three Terminators for this Tactic to be effective...Partially right. What you really want to do, is run one, and Outflank it.

Tactical Priority: Change your Mission Tactics Datasheet, for the rest of the Battle. (Note you can use this Tactic multiple times)

Unrelenting: A model in your Kill Team counts as stationary, even if it moved during the Movement phase.

Priority Execution: One model in your Kill Team gains +1 to wound in the Fight phase.

Decapitation Doctrine: One model in the Shooting or Fight phase gains re-roll to wound vs. enemy Leaders.

No. Deathwatch Teams don't have Death Denied.

Tactics not Covered:
Trust in your Armour (Terrain)
Vigilance Incarnate (Commander)
Master of Battle (Commander)
Steel Your Minds (Commander)

Spoiler: Core Unit

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Deathwatch Veteran: In the Core Rulebook, Deathwatch only have access to a single Datasheet; Deathwatch Veterans. So, if you went out and bought 4 boxes (20 models), you'd be done for a while. Because, whilst <Adeptus Astartes> Veterans can do pretty much anything they want. Deathwatch Veterans, can only use options found in the box...Because no fun allowed, I guess? Despite Deathwatch being the poster child for Kill Team, you can't actually customise your guys the way you want, you can only use the options in the box. DVs can take any Specialism except for Medic and Scout...At least one of those is useless. Anyway, Deatwatch Veterans can swap their Boltgun for:

Ranged Weapon: Combi-Melta or Combi-Plasma; Plasmas are almost always the best weapon you can take, and, because it's a Combi-Weapon, you still get to keep your Bolter profile for Special Ammo (in case you don't want to blow up. Remembering that you can always Sniper, and you have additional access to Rival Chapters, for a total of three models re-rolling modded 1s to hit (and two of them are within 2" of each other). Stalker Boltguns look cool, but that's where their usefulness ends.

Storm Shield: That's right. Ranged weapon or Storm Shield, not both. This shoe-horns Deathwatch into certain Teams (but not as bad as say, Harlequins or Grey Knights). Still, it's interesting - but also terrible - that if you swap your Boltgun for a Storm Shield, you're now left with your bare hands, because once again, the DV box doesn't contain Knives/Chainswords, so you don't even get +1 Attack.

Melee Weapon: Again, you're constrained by the box. So, you can swap your Boltgun for a Power Sword, or Power Maul. That said, you may additionally take a Sword or Maul. The intent is that you run Boltgun & Power weapon, or Power Weapon & Storm Shield.

Deathwatch Weapon: Instead of any of the above, you may take a Deathwatch Shotgun, or Heavy Thunder Hammer. Deceptively strong, is the Deathwatch Shotgun. Like a Bolt weapon with Special Ammo, DW Shotguns come with almost the same type of ability. Change your shot based on your target, and blow it away. The reason it's worded the way it is, at the start, is so you can't have a Deathwatch Shotgun and Power weapon (because the box wont let you). A Heavy Thunder Hammer, is the best Melee weapon in the game, doing D6 Damage per wound, and on a modded 6+ to wound (i.e; Priority Execution), deals a straight 6 Damage for a near-guaranteed kill. Remember that Demolitions models get +1 to wound vs. Obscured models, too (yep, in the Melee phase, too).

• Deathwatch Gunner (4): REALLY!? FOUR!? You can make your whole Team just Gunners. Obviously, no Roster is complete without 4 Deathwatch Frag Cannons (see, glad you bought 4 boxes, eh?). DFCs are the best weapon, in the game, and you can have 4 of 'em, with 16 Points left over to make your Leader (which is just enough...Thanks, GW!) in 100 Points. Of course, this Team is extremely weak in a bad match-up. But it's the best in a good match-up...You did read your opponent's Roster, right? You know when to not take DFCs, right? Or has years of net-listing and reading Guides removed your ability to makes choices?
• Black Shield (1): Pay 2 Points for an extra attack and this model can re-roll Charges. Unfortunately, being a Black Shield, and being Melee-orientated...He's still constrained by the box. His options are the same as Veterans'; Power Sword or Power Maul, +/- a Storm Shield or Boltgun. You could just take a Combi-Plasma or something...But then why are you paying 2 Points for the extra Attack? Cool. Why take a Black Shield, when for 2 Points less, you can have a Veteran uh...Veteran...With a Heavy Thunder Hammer?
• Watch Sergeant (1): Your default Leader. He gets all the options of a Veteran...But also he can take a Xenophase Blade to **** up Harlequins if he wants to, which forces re-rolls of successful Invulnerable saves.

Your Roster might look something like this...

Spoiler: Core Deathwatch Roster

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1. Watch Sergeant; Boltgun - 16 Points
2-7; Deathwatch Veterans (x6); Boltguns - 84 Points (14*6)
8-10; Deathwatch Veterans (x3); Combi-Plasmas (x3) - 60 Points (20*4)
11-14; Deathwatch Veterans (x4); Heavy Thunder Hammers (x4) - 84 Points (21*4)
15-18; Deathwatch Veteran Gunners (x4); Deathwatch Frag Cannons (x4) - 84 Points (21*4)
19; [Player's Choice; Sergeant with Xp.Blade and Storm Shield - 22 Points?]
20; [Player's Choice; Veteran with Boltgun and Power Maul - 16 Points?]

Not saying you should do this. But you could.

Reiver: Always replace the Bolt Carbine with a Combat Knife. The Deathwatch Roster is forcing you to pay 2 Points for the Carbine, and another 2 Points for the Pistol. Don't be a chump. Take the thing that's free. Grapnel Launchers only work in when you Normal Move, and so definitely are not as good as they seem, and because Deathwatch are less good than normal Space Marines (), Reivers don't even get to Grav-Chute Insertion. So what's even the point?

• Reiver Sergeant (1): Exactly the same as before. But now you have an extra attack making the Combat Knife slightly more effective - for an extra point.
• Reiver Annual '19 Update: It is strongly argued that Deathwatch don't get access to Annual updates because of RAW. Check your meta. Add the <Phobos> Keyword... Nobody cares.

Intercessor: Don't be fooled. Deathwatch makes you pay points for Pistols you're never going to use. Deathwatch Veterans don't have that problem ('cause the boxed models don't have Pistols), but, because of Special Ammo, and having both Rifles and Pistols, Intercessors are paying 4 Points above asking price (remembering that you will never, ever use your Pistols). As usual, the best option is the standard Bolt Rifle. Also remembering that because you're Deathwatch, Intercessors are the only place you can pick up an Auspex. Also remember that Intercessors aren't Veterans - their Leadership is lower than the Veterans'.

• Intercessor Gunner (2): Pay 1 Point for access to an AGL and Heavy. Because you have access to Deathwatch Veterans, Intercessor Gunners aren't really useful or needed, and you still have to pay 2 Points for the Pistol you'll never use.
• Intercessor Sergeant (1): Really tempted to just drop the Bolt Rifle for a Chainsword or Power Sword. That way you're only paying 2 Points for the Pistol, rather than 4 Points for the Rifle as well.
• Intercessor Annual '19 Update: It is strongly argued that Deathwatch don't get access to Annual updates because of RAW. Check your meta. If you're allowed to run Annual!Intercessors, definitely think about running a Power Fist or Thunder Hammer. Always take the Hand Flamer, 'cause it costs 0 Points, instead of 2... You get it.

Spoiler: Elites

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Terminator: At 2 Wounds each, these guys make a decent comparison to Primaris Marines...OH WAIT. They're 25 Points each, base. However, that's 'cause they have a 2+ Save and 5+ Invulnerable, making them extremely tanky. Annoyingly, they come stock with a Power Fist and Storm Bolter, which makes them cost 33 Points...Each. That's kinda worth it, because Storm Bolters with Special Ammo are the business. That said, it would be really nice to drop that Power Fist for something cheaper. As far as Melee Terminators, the best thing you can do is switch them to Lightning Claws and running them up the board, even though on Deathwatch, Lightning Claws aren't as good (you're already re-rolling 1s to wound vs. models you chose), Thunder Hammer and Storm Shield is just too expensive for any model that isn't going to be your Leader. Slower movement also makes them kind of a bad choice for Veteran, but, not a non-choice. Still. It's hard to go past a regular Deathwatch Veteran, Veteran, with Heavy Thunder Hammer.

• Terminator Gunner (2): Pay the extra Point for Heavy. Which you will, 'cause that's where Assault Cannons and Cyclone Missile Launchers are. Assault Cannons are very good, don't be confused, it's just that Deathwatch Frag Cannons are the best weapon in the entire game. That said, Terminator Gunners do have 2 Wounds, a and 2+ save and Invulnerable, and DWVs with DFCs are 'just Marines'. If only Terminators could just get rid of that useless Power Fist.
• Terminator Sergeant (1): A Terminator Sergeant has two wounds, access to a 3+ Invulnerable save, and access to a Thunder Hammer also means that he wants to be in combat to kick the **** out of things and because he can actually Melee, he actually wants to use the Leader Tactic which lets him double-team an opponent. Very strong.

Q. Can a Vanguard Veteran Sergeant be added to a Deathwatch kill team using the Aquila Kill Team rule?
A. No. Only Vanguard Veteran models can be affected by this rule.

...

Vanguard Veteran: Like the Primaris Marines before him, he's paying 2 Points for a Pistol straight off the bat that he'll never, ever use. Despite being a Deathwatch model, and despite canon models existing...<Deathwatch> Vanguard, is not the same as <Blood Angels> Vanguard...So no Hand Flamers or Inferno Pistols for you! What the **** GW!? I know you know that those models exist. First thing you're going to want to do, is at least swap the Bolt Pistol for a second Chainsword. After that, go HAM. The best option isn't actually Lightning Claws, because you're already re-rolling 1s to wound vs. a Datasheet (that you chose). So the better options are things that wound other things, on a 2+...Power Fists and Thunder Hammers. Additionally, due to the fact that Deathwatch Veterans should never be chucking Grenades, and Intercessor Gunners are utterly superfluous, Deathwatch Vanguard actually like picking up Melta Bombs! Wound on 2+, re-roll 1s to wound...Because. Remember that Deathwatch can Retreat and Shoot for 1 CP - which is so good. But yeah. Power Fists are more economical, but Thunder Hammers are Just Better, if you're willing to spend the points.
Finally, we're remembering that Deathwatch are actually worse than normal Marines (), and forgot how to Jump Pack Assault. Unfortunately, the range for Outflank is larger than the range on a Melta Bomb. So uh...Just Veteran? 12+D6" Advance with <Fly> and Charge on Round 1? ...Yeah. That'll work.

[Wraith]

Kill Team Guide to Deathwatch

Yay! I haven't played Kill-Team for a while, but I'm really enjoying these.

Anyway, Deatwatch Veterans can swap their Boltgun for:

Storm Shield? Combi-Melta or Combi-Plasma; Plasmas are the best weapon you can take, and because it's a Combi-Weapon, you still get to keep your Bolter profile for Special Ammo (in case you don't want to blow up. Remembering that you can always Sniper, and you have additional access to Rival Chapters, for a total of three models re-rolling modified 1s to hit (and two of them are within 2" of each other). Stalker Boltguns look cool, but they're not very good. Or you can swap your Boltgun for a Power Sword, Power Maul or Storm Shield - ugh, Ranged weapon or Storm Shield, not both. In addition, you can take a Power Sword or Power Maul. So, it's entirely possible to run around with a Storm Shield and your bare hands...If you want. The idea is to make Boltguns & Power Swords, 'cause that's what the box gives you. However, remember that Power Mauls will wound T3 models on a 2+, and you have re-roll 1s to wound vs. entire Datasheets.

No Storm Shield Allowed; Deceptively strong, is the Deathwatch Shotgun. Like a Bolt weapon with Special Ammo, DW Shotguns come with almost the same type of ability. Change your shot based on your target, and blow it away. A Heavy Thunder Hammer, is the best Melee weapon in the game, doing D6 Damage per wound, and on a modded 6+ to wound (i.e; Priority Execution), deals a straight 6 Damage for a near-guaranteed kill. Remember that Demolitions models get +1 to wound vs. Obscured models, too (yep, in the Melee phase, too).

This is a really dense paragraph to read. I'm not your High School English teacher or anything but it could do with a trim, or a clear indication of where each point starts?

Deathwatch Gunner (4): REALLY!? FOUR!? You can make your whole just Gunners.

Missed the word "Squad" out there.

Vanguard Veteran: Like the Primaris Marines before him, he's paying 2 Points for a Pistol straight off the bad that he'll never, ever use.

Bat, not bad. It's a cricket reference, I believe

[Brookshw]

I remember Chapter Approved bringing back Looted Wagons. Me, being like "GW you magnificent bastards. Selling Leman Russes to Ork players. Now you're getting it!"
Then reading it, first words; 'Open Play Only.'
...Nevermind.

Agreed. I sort of wondered if they did that to prevent Looted Wagon sales from competing with the Megatrakk Scrapjet or other ork antitank. /shrug.

[Squark]

I noticed this before in your Space Marine guide and meant to say something, but I wanted to double check, first. Unfortunately Auxiliary Grenade Launchers were errata'd to take long range penalties.

Page 85 – Intercessor, Abilities, Auxiliary Grenade Launcher
Add the following sentence:
‘This model’s Grenade weapons are affected by the long range rule.'

[LansXero]

There was one or two Sisters players in my meta before the new Sisters came out. So we've definitely got some new players as well. At the very least, me.

They are far less scary to try now that its not metal, at the very least. They totally need waifu heads though, this new push towards ugly sisters (or is it old? I always like their art more than their models, ugh metal) is just too woke. But aesthetics aside, they can make some nice pubstomp / sealclub lists for the unprepared and nobody will accuse you of a WAAC mentality when playing sisters, considering all the bad rap they get.

[Renegade Paladin]

Turns out, neither soldiers in the field nor nuns tend to be too concerned with cosmetics. Who knew?

[Forum Explorer]

They are far less scary to try now that its not metal, at the very least. They totally need waifu heads though, this new push towards ugly sisters (or is it old? I always like their art more than their models, ugh metal) is just too woke. But aesthetics aside, they can make some nice pubstomp / sealclub lists for the unprepared and nobody will accuse you of a WAAC mentality when playing sisters, considering all the bad rap they get.

I'm 110% on board with the ugly sisters. Mind you, I pretty much always go for the full helmeted sisters because I hate painting faces, but when I don't have an option, I go with the ugly old sisters.

[Selpharia]

Sisters are fun to play, an blend themes with mechanics nicely. i've enjoyed my games with them. Bloody Rose in particular implements the concept of faithful berserkers on an ecstatic rampage.

They totally need waifu heads though, this new push towards ugly sisters (or is it old? I always like their art more than their models, ugh metal) is just too woke.

Yikes. I like my warriors looking like people with agency rather than sex objects to fuel fantasies, thanks.

[9mm]

Yikes. I like my warriors looking like people with agency rather than sex objects to fuel fantasies, thanks.

you don't need a five o'clock shadow to have agency; but I wouldn't be surprised if Statuesque miniatures was having plenty of sales for new sisters armies.

[Blackhawk748]

Yikes. I like my warriors looking like people with agency rather than sex objects to fuel fantasies, thanks.

There's a pretty big gap in between "ugly non-pleasing faces" (and there's like... two Sister's heads I would put in there) and "sex fantasy" (and I wouldn't put any of the Sisters in there)

you don't need a five o'clock shadow to have agency; but I wouldn't be surprised if Statuesque miniatures was having plenty of sales for new sisters armies.

Agreed. You're buying a miniature for a fairly substantial chunk of change, you should like how it looks. And lets be honest, would we not generally consider the Cadian and Catachan Guardsmen to be fairly attractive representations of people?

[LansXero]

There's a pretty big gap in between "ugly non-pleasing faces" (and there's like... two Sister's heads I would put in there) and "sex fantasy" (and I wouldn't put any of the Sisters in there)

Agreed. You're buying a miniature for a fairly substantial chunk of change, you should like how it looks. And lets be honest, would we not generally consider the Cadian and Catachan Guardsmen to be fairly attractive representations of people?

I mean, if we start looking for realism we'll end nowhere. its a game, and a hobby based around aesthetic appeal; and while I dont mind the odd Canoness face looking like Terry Crews in drag, having a few more options shouldn't trigger the "no, I dont wanna be objectified" reactions. Some people like their tanks and flyers shiny and chrome, straight out of the factory or cleaned out for a parede; other people want dirt, grime, scratches and rust. For me, scars mean you cant dodge (then again I play Craftworlds, so it fits) but there are options out there for both camps. 'prettier' heads for Sisters is the same, just an aesthetic preference (you wanna make them old? sure, but old AND angry is hard to make right and to me it just doesnt look great.) The vehicles are super stilized to a very impractical level, and Celestine is cute as heck, so why is it so outlandish to want some nicer faces? Like, even the sister from the Codex cover that just got a model got made uglier even though there is already media depicting her otherwise. It would be like taking away Mephiston's stiff ass cape due to how static and impractical it looks. Why keep faithful to the 2D medium for some models, but not for others?

[Selpharia]

I think the Sisters as they are are plenty cute, with their fluffy bob haircuts. Celestine is a really cute soft butch yes, but she's also a saint, intended to look serene, innocent, and beatific. Each kit has a crapton of head options, I think I've assembled about 30 of them and neer felt like I had to use a scarred model. The only sisters who are almost all ugly are Repentia/Mortifiers, and they're being brutally tortured all the time. Even the reglar Canness kit has some options for her head that are grim at most.

[Blackhawk748]

I think the Sisters as they are are plenty cute, with their fluffy bob haircuts. Celestine is a really cute soft butch yes, but she's also a saint, intended to look serene, innocent, and beatific. Each kit has a crapton of head options, I think I've assembled about 30 of them and neer felt like I had to use a scarred model. The only sisters who are almost all ugly are Repentia/Mortifiers, and they're being brutally tortured all the time. Even the reglar Canness kit has some options for her head that are grim at most.

Oh good, because that screaming head was... bad.

[Forum Explorer]

I mean, if we start looking for realism we'll end nowhere. its a game, and a hobby based around aesthetic appeal; and while I dont mind the odd Canoness face looking like Terry Crews in drag, having a few more options shouldn't trigger the "no, I dont wanna be objectified" reactions. Some people like their tanks and flyers shiny and chrome, straight out of the factory or cleaned out for a parede; other people want dirt, grime, scratches and rust. For me, scars mean you cant dodge (then again I play Craftworlds, so it fits) but there are options out there for both camps. 'prettier' heads for Sisters is the same, just an aesthetic preference (you wanna make them old? sure, but old AND angry is hard to make right and to me it just doesnt look great.) The vehicles are super stilized to a very impractical level, and Celestine is cute as heck, so why is it so outlandish to want some nicer faces? Like, even the sister from the Codex cover that just got a model got made uglier even though there is already media depicting her otherwise. It would be like taking away Mephiston's stiff ass cape due to how static and impractical it looks. Why keep faithful to the 2D medium for some models, but not for others?

Oh, I'm not blaming you for wanting a pretty head (though some people seem to be), I'm just saying I do really like the older looking heads. It's...refreshing I suppose. For a long time women were always super pretty in pretty much all sci-fi and fantasy so having some that aren't waifu looking is now really appealing.

[Cheesegear]

This is a really dense paragraph to read. I'm not your High School English teacher or anything but it could do with a trim, or a clear indication of where each point starts?

Spoiler

Show

Deathwatch Veteran: In the Core Rulebook, Deathwatch only have access to a single Datasheet; Deathwatch Veterans. So, if you went out and bought 4 boxes (20 models), you'd be done for a while. Because, whilst <Adeptus Astartes> Veterans can do pretty much anything they want. Deathwatch Veterans, can only use options found in the box...Because no fun allowed, I guess? Despite Deathwatch being the poster child for Kill Team, you can't actually customise your guys the way you want, you can only use the options in the box. DVs can take any Specialism except for Medic and Scout...At least one of those is useless. Anyway, Deatwatch Veterans can swap their Boltgun for:

Ranged Weapon: Combi-Melta or Combi-Plasma; Plasmas are almost always the best weapon you can take, and, because it's a Combi-Weapon, you still get to keep your Bolter profile for Special Ammo (in case you don't want to blow up. Remembering that you can always Sniper, and you have additional access to Rival Chapters, for a total of three models re-rolling modded 1s to hit (and two of them are within 2" of each other). Stalker Boltguns look cool, but that's where their usefulness ends.

Storm Shield: That's right. Ranged weapon or Storm Shield, not both. This shoe-horns Deathwatch into certain Teams (but not as bad as say, Harlequins or Grey Knights). Still, it's interesting - but also terrible - that if you swap your Boltgun for a Storm Shield, you're now left with your bare hands, because once again, the DV box doesn't contain Knives/Chainswords, so you don't even get +1 Attack.

Melee Weapons: Again, you're constrained by the box. So, you can swap your Boltgun for a Power Sword, or Power Maul. That said, you may additionally take a Sword or Maul. The intent is that you run Boltgun & Power weapon, or Power Weapon & Storm Shield.

Deathwatch Weapons: Instead of any of the above, you may take a Deathwatch Shotgun, or Heavy Thunder Hammer. Deceptively strong, is the Deathwatch Shotgun. Like a Bolt weapon with Special Ammo, DW Shotguns come with almost the same type of ability. Change your shot based on your target, and blow it away. The reason it's worded the way it is, at the start, is so you can't have a Deathwatch Shotgun and Power weapon (because the box wont let you). A Heavy Thunder Hammer, is the best Melee weapon in the game, doing D6 Damage per wound, and on a modded 6+ to wound (i.e; Priority Execution), deals a straight 6 Damage for a near-guaranteed kill. Remember that Demolitions models get +1 to wound vs. Obscured models, too (yep, in the Melee phase, too).

...Better?

Missed the word "Squad" out there.

No I didn't. I missed 'Team.'

Bat, not bad. It's a cricket reference, I believe

Straight off the 'bad', also works in that context. Even if it's not what I meant.

Unfortunately Auxiliary Grenade Launchers were errata'd to take long range penalties.

...I've looked at the Errata half a dozen times (and I've quoted it several times in the last few days).
And yet somehow I've missed that several times (including all the times I've played with AGLs, and cheated, I guess), misreading it as unaffected by long range.

There's a pretty big gap in between "ugly non-pleasing faces" (and there's like... two Sister's heads I would put in there) and "sex fantasy" (and I wouldn't put any of the Sisters in there)

This.

Ew. Gross. What's wrong with her face?
"You just want to imagine having sex with your models."
Whoa. Hang on. How'd you get there? That's a huge leap from what I said.

Agreed. You're buying a miniature for a fairly substantial chunk of change, you should like how it looks.

It's funny that this is said so often about every model you own.
The instant you apply the same rule to Sororitas models, you're the worst.


But I truly think it's an issue with CAD.
Ever since they moved to CAD, it's like GW forgot how to design faces. I think it's an issue with how Printers work.
Seriously, the new Aelves...Don't look like Aelves.

[LeSwordfish]

Ew. Gross. What's wrong with her face?
"You just want to imagine having sex with your models."
Whoa. Hang on. How'd you get there? That's a huge leap from what I said.

If you say something as peerlessly dumb as "They need waifu heads, this push towards ugly sisters is too woke" then expect people to laugh at you and imply you want sexpot battle-nuns. I like the models I buy to look nice but strangely enough I've never looked at a space marine captain and gone "gosh, what would really make this model better is if he looked less like a battle-hardened warrior and more like a potential boyfriend." Where's the Ryan Gosling space marine, is what I want to know? Not the living-statue blood angels: someone to cuddle.

But I truly think it's an issue with CAD.
Ever since they moved to CAD, it's like GW forgot how to design faces. I think it's an issue with how Printers work.
Seriously, the new Aelves...Don't look like Aelves.

You've given very strong opinions on CAD sculpting from a place of no knowledge before. Please take a moment: are you sure you aren't doing that again?

[Cheesegear]

I've never looked at a space marine captain and gone "gosh, what would really make this model better is if he looked less like a battle-hardened warrior and more like a potential boyfriend." Where's the Ryan Gosling space marine, is what I want to know?

Pretty sure there was one or two heads going around dubbed 'Hair-esy' because they were good looking.

Luckily, me personally, I hate Marines without helmets, because from a fluff perspective, not wearing a helmet, on a Space Marine, doesn't make much sense. It makes even less sense on warriors who aren't as bullet-immune as Space Marines.

So if I was to start Sororitas (which I wont, see the rules), I wouldn't have any models without helmets. Because I hate bare heads. Lucky for me, GW is moving away from Resin, and plastic clam-pack models are really easy to remove heads from.

You've given very strong opinions on CAD sculpting from a place of no knowledge before. Please take a moment: are you sure you aren't doing that again?

My knowledge is:
They moved to CAD. Now a lot of fine details look worse. Not all of them, but especially curved surfaces (Space Wolf banana-cloaks come to mind; Everything on AoS Mortrek Guard look great...Except the heads).

There are two options for why this is true:
a) Model designers got worse at their job, despite CAD making things way easier. This is demonstrably not true, as macro-models like terrain look dope (even if I don't buy them).
b) Limitations in the printing process 'cause some fine details to come out maybe not as intended, and some releases don't look as good as other releases.
(EDIT: Looking closer, I think the main problem on most heads I don't like, is the way their mouths look.)

I prefer to think that nobody intentionally designs models that don't look good.
I prefer to think that GW doesn't hire incompetent people who are bad at their jobs (even if that might not be true).
Is it not better to think that the reason models look the way they do, is because of hardware limitations, and it's not someone's fault?

[LansXero]

If you say something as peerlessly dumb as "They need waifu heads, this push towards ugly sisters is too woke" then expect people to laugh at you and imply you want sexpot battle-nuns. I like the models I buy to look nice but strangely enough I've never looked at a space marine captain and gone "gosh, what would really make this model better is if he looked less like a battle-hardened warrior and more like a potential boyfriend." Where's the Ryan Gosling space marine, is what I want to know? Not the living-statue blood angels: someone to cuddle.

Laughing is fine, this is toy soldiers after all. Getting all defensive and playing the objectification card is a tad much though. So what if I'd like fabulous heads for captains? Is there an aesthetics police or something? Are preferences now right and wrong? So you want to go for the hardened warrior look, great, thats a helmeted head not because of bullet proofing but because all the HUD info and stuff comes from inside the helmet. Practicality and Space Marine design dont even overlap that much, what with the new terminator librarian for example looking like its arms come from its freaking ears. But I guess faces is where you arbitrarily draw the line? And thats somehow very valid and not laughable at all?

[LeSwordfish]

Use the word "Waifu" and everybody pictures, like, a dude with a sisters of battle body pillow. Of course that's laughable.

[Wraith]

...Better?

It is, thank you. I hope that came across as worthwhile critique rather than just pedantry, by the way.

Straight off the 'bad', also works in that context. Even if it's not what I meant.

I mean....

Of course that's laughable.

That's right! Everyone knows they're called Dakimakura, and they're art!

...I immediately regret googling that from my work computer.

[Cheesegear]

Kill Team Guide to Grey Knights

Spoiler: Special Rules

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And They Shall Know No Fear: As always, Space Marines re-roll Nerve tests. Not having your models constantly Shaken (especially in Grey Knights, where every model counts), is really handy. Remember though, you still have to take Break tests as normal.

Daemon Hunters: Re-roll to wound vs. <Daemon> units in the Fight phase.
Daemons aren't even in the Core Rulebook, and no Daemons were even added to the game until much, much later. Garbage rule that doesn't even matter. I sure hope this rule wasn't factored into their points costs.

Rites of Banishment: Psybolt has a range of 12" (instead of 18"), and always does D3 Mortal Wounds vs. <Daemon> units that are barely in the game at all. This is fine. Kill Team's small board size means that Psybolt is still very effective with low range. Psybolt is always good because in the Movement phase, your opponent might try to Charge you - especially with a Veteran. "So, you Charged me? That makes that one the closest model, yes? Eat Mortal Wounds, ****head." before the Fight phase even happens.

Transhuman Physiology: Like all Space Marines, Grey Knights also ignore the To Hit penalty only from one Flesh Wound. You still take Nerve tests. You still are easier to Injure. You still contribute to Break threshold.

Brotherhood of Psykers: Grey Knights can choose two <Psykers> to manifest in the Psychic phase, instead of one. Additionally, Grey Knights add 1 to Psychic and Deny the Witch tests. So...Two Psybolts per Round, dealing D3 Mortals on a 10+. Very nice.

Core Manual
A psyker cannot attempt to manifest the same psychic power more than once in a battle round.

This reads that a single Psyker that can manifest twice - there aren't any - can't manifest the same Power twice.
A Team can manifest the same Power twice, so two Psybolts per Round, is legal.
Is this a QA&C Fail, where there aren't any Psykers that can manifest twice (at least in the Core rules). Or is what they meant, that a Team can't manifest the same Power twice? Brotherhood of Psykers isn't a rule in the Core Manual...So was this failure to future-proof the game? ...It hasn't been Errata'd. So the answer is probably yes. Brotherhood of Psykers is probably way more powerful than it should be.

Spoiler: Tactics

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Teleport Strike: [Reserves]. The usual. Choose up to three <Terminators> and have them show up at the end of the Movement phase 5" away from enemy models. Is this better than Outflank? ...Depends how many Terminators you have.

Psychic Channeling (2): Roll 3d6 for a Psychic test, and choose the best two. For 2CPs, you really don't want to be doing this.

Canticles of Warding: One model gains Ignore Mortal Wounds (5+) for a phase.

Psybolt Ammunition: [Storm Bolter]. For one phase, the weapon becomes S5, AP-1. Very strong Tactic that you kind of want to use at least once every Round. Kind of means that any Tactic Grey Knights have that costs 2CPs...Isn't good.

Heed the Prognosticars (2): At the start of the Round, all the way 'til the end of the Round, one of your models adds 1 to their saves.

Psychic Onslaught (2): A [Psilencer] or [Psycannon] gains +1S, and an addition -1AP until the end of the Shooting phase. 2CPs is a lot. But if your opponent has clumped a bunch of their models together, you know what to do.

Psychic Communion (2): A model gains +1 to Psychic tests for each friendly non-Shaken GK model within 3".

Rite of Exorcism (2): If you successfully Deny the Witch, the Psyker that attempted to manifest, takes a Mortal Wound. Ouch. ...It's still 2CPs, and there are barely any Psykers in the game.

Leave No Witnesses: In the Fight phase, if your model has only one enemy model within 6" (i.e; The model you're in Melee with, and no others), your model gains re-rolls to wound. This is what happens when your opponent has only one model left on the board, and hasn't Broken yet, and you really need the win (remember that a Team that's wiped out is auto-Broken, which sometimes - but not always - means auto-win).

Honour the Chapter (2): At the end of the Fight phase, one of your models can Fight again.

Mental Fortitude (3!): Once per Battle. One Psyker's Psybolt has 18" range for the phase.

Ceaseless Vigil (2): Your entire Team has +1 to hit in the Shooting phase vs. any models that arrived from Reserves in the preceding Movement phase.

Tactics not Covered:
Stillness of Spirit (Commander)
Six Chants of Denial (Commander)
Psychic Locus (Commander)
Vengeful Strike (Commander)
Clarity of Vision (Commander)

Spoiler: Core Unit

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Grey Knight: Comes stock with a Storm Bolter, which is great for clearing clumps of enemy models. They come stock with D3 Damage Melee weapons, which means anything they Charge, probably dies in one Round...If they hit. Grey Knights are not Veterans. They only have one attack (and Ld7), and if that attack misses...You're done. Grey Knights don't have access to Sniper. Which means that your go-tos are Combat and Zealot to get those extra attack. Storm Bolters, being S4, AP- (is trash), really love having Demolitions for that +1 to wound vs. Obscured targets. Strangely, Veteran, on Grey Knights, despite having kick-ass weapons...Only have one Attack. It's great to Charge...But you still have to hit, and if your opponent is behind a chest-high wall, that's -1 to hit and how do you even connect? That said, Pairs of Nemesis Falchions give you an extra attack, and that's what makes them the best weapon you can have...That's why it costs a Point.
GW evidently learned this from 'Big 40K'. More Attacks = More Better, and maybe Falchions should cost points?

• Grey Knight Gunner (2): Pay the extra point for access to Heavy, and Heavy weapons. Incinerators are the best weapons you can take, but require you to get into Short Range of almost all your opponent's weapons. Psilencers have six shots (!), and despite only being S4, AP-, they do D3 Damage per wound. And, as we know, Damage in Kill Team is one of the key indicators on whether a weapon is good or not - even vs. 1-wound models. Which brings us to Psycannons. Why is it less points? It's S7, AP-1. That's way better than a Psilencer, right? ...Wrong. It's only 1 Damage. It's not an Autocannon. As always, if you want to go Gunner-heavy, Comms is always nice to have on one of your other models.
• Justicar: Extra point, means extra Attack and extra Leadership. Generally speaking, this is the only model you want to carry a Nemesis Daemon Hammer, but be wary, that takes him above 20 Points (rant incoming) which can limit your options for the rest of your Team. The safest option is a Warding Stave, for a 5+ Invulnerable in the Fight phase because the Justicar is your Leader. That being said, a Pair of Falchions is only 1 Point, taking your Justicar to exactly 20 Points, and they have 3 Attacks, now. As always, Melee-based Leaders can be very strong, due to the extremely strong Lead by Example for two activations. Then again, Melee-Leaders are bad (especially if they only have one Wound) because getting into your opponent's Short range is how you die.

Spoiler: Minor Rant

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Similar to Deathwatch, Grey Knights only get one Datasheet, but within that Datasheet, is a lot of customisation...But not really. Grey Knights are really expensive, because their Storm Bolters and Melee weapons are rolled into their cost, heightening their minimum cost, which can't be reduced. This is all a Team can ever be;
18+18+18+18+19 = 91 Points...Minimum, and you've only got five models (Deathwatch get minimum 7). Ready to start Breaking in Round 1?
But, because of the limitation of how Grey Knights work; They're always going to have Storm Bolters, and they're always going to have Melee weapons. No matter what, your Team - more or less - is going to have the same Mission-plan, every single Mission. Your opponents can tailor to you so easily, because Grey Knights are always going to be T4, with a 3+ save, and they can't have more than 5 models in their Team which means they can be Broken fairly easily on Round 1, if your opponent goes HAM - which they absolutely can, because tailoring is part of the game, and it's why there is no 'meta' in Kill Team.

Pushing the Team limit to 125 Points isn't actually a solution to the problem, because everyone gets 125 Points.

Spoiler: Elites

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Terminator: Costing 36 Points, exactly taking the place of two regular Grey Knights. But now these two Wounds are coated in a 2+ save with a 5+ Invulnerable. So, whilst a Terminator is harder to kill that two regular Grey Knights within 2" of each other (ignoring why you would do that in the first place), the problem is that your Break threshold is based on the number of models you have. So as long as other models in your Kill Team are easy to kill, there's no benefit to having less models. That being said, you're limited to 2-3 Terminators anyway. Remembering that because Terminators have extra base attacks, Halberds and Hammers are better, so cost extra Points. Because Terminators have a base Invulnerable save, Warding Staves are heaps better. But, because extra attacks equals more attacks, Falchions stayed the same price*, which means that Falchions are still the best weapon you can take.

• Terminator Gunner (2): As usual, pay the extra Point for Heavy and Heavy weapons. Because Terminator Gunners keep their Melee weapons (unlike PAGKs), their Points costs for their Heavy weapons increase dramatically, to the point where Incinerators are the only viable option...Don't pick Heavy. Incinerators don't roll to hit. A Gunner with an Incinerator wants Demolitions. Interestingly, two Terminator Gunners with a PA.Justicar is 95 Points, has a Leader, and is 3 models, making it a legal Team. Keep the Justicar out of line of sight, and let your opponent try and kill the two Terminators.
• Terminator Justicar: Unlike Astartes or Deathwatch, Grey Knight Terminators aren't Veterans, so don't get the additional Leadership, which means your Break tests are still taken on Leadership 8. Gross. And you pay 3 Points over normal for a Terminator Justicar (probably 'cause they think you're going to make it your Leader). That being said, having a Terminator Justicar Leader, frees you up to take a PA.Justicar with Nemesis Daemon Hammer, and make it a Veteran. The other way 'round can also work, where your PA.Justicar hides behind a wall. Whilst your Veteran Terminator Justicar runs up the board and pounds stuff into the ground.

If you're learning anything, there's an easy rule; 3 PAGKs, 1 Terminator; 1 PAGK, 2 Terminators. Break tests for either Team is taken at two models OoA (no Space Marine model in a small Team like these should ever be Shaken). That being said, less models in your Team makes it easier to get wiped out, which is equally as bad. And getting a Perils of the Warp will ruin you.

Paladin: Please turn your attention to Adeptus Custodes, in the same book. You may now freak the **** out. Of course, Paladins are only functional in a 125 Point meta (which Elites of course, strongly encourages), because they're 47 ****ing Points minimum. They have 3 Wounds, 3 Attacks and base Leadership 8. Remembering that Elites forgot that Nemesis Falchions are the best in Kill Team because Strength isn't actually that important because nothing in the game is higher than T5. What really matters is Damage, and #Attacks, and Falchions give more Attacks, and still dish out D3 Damage. Paladins are exceptionally strong because a Supercharged Plasma weapon doesn't take them to 0 Wounds off of one hit. But still...47 Points. Jesus.

• Paladin Gunner (4): What the **** are you gonna do with 4 Gunners on a Team? You know they're 48 Points each, right? Are you playing 200 Point Missions and not taking a <Commander>? Do you even know what you're doing? Same as Terminators (above), the only weapon you should consider, is an Incinerator - esepcially at an already based cost of 48 Points, the Gunner + Incinerator, makes 50 Points, for one model. (Again, I'll ask you to flip back to Adeptus Custodes and lose your mind)
• Paragon (1): At least Paladins are Veterans, and are Leadership 8/9, and actually count. But holy ****, a Paragon coming in at 50 Points is bananas. The only thing you're paying for is access to Leader, and the extra Point of Leadership.
  Unlike 'Big 40K', a Paragon doesn't even have WS2+. What the ****!?

*QA&C Fail: In the Core Manual it was changed to 'Pair of Nemesis Falchions'. The Annual does not have this change. Does this mean that the Errata to the Core Manual is over-ridden, and we're back to paying 1 Point for each Falchion? Or is GW just bad at design, and copy-pasting is copy-pasting? Or is it only not a pair, if you don't use Elites, losing Brotherhood of Psykers? ...What?

[Squark]

I'm pretty sure the prohibition Gainst a psyker manifesting the same power more than once was future proofing for commanders. I know you like to forget commanders exist*, but at least it stops Ph9bos Librarians from casting Mind raid twice in a turn.

*And I mean, fair enough, if you're going for a competitive game.

[Wraith]

I'm pretty sure the prohibition Gainst a psyker manifesting the same power more than once was future proofing for commanders. I know you like to forget commanders exist*, but at least it stops Phobos Librarians from casting Mind raid twice in a turn.

This is what I got from it too - that, and it's a another (albeit long-winded) way of emphasising "you can cast two powers per turn, but each one has to come from a different model" because reading is hard.

I'm going to just come out and say it: Don't play Grey Knights in Kill-Team.
I did it a few times; I won my first game because my opponent didn't realise how good Psilencers are, and because I figured out early that Brotherhood of Psykers is basically the same as having 5 guys making 7 shooting attacks per turn, so if I wanted something dead then it would die. After that though.... a 5-man team is a HUGE handicap, and if your opponent has any sense they'll just hide behind a building and force you to come to him, at which point 4 of his guys jump out and shiv 1 of yours.

There are also some scenarios that you just auto-lose. My third game with GK's was Assassination against a GSC team - my 5 guys against ~16 of theirs. I literally could not cut my way through that team fast enough to get to the enemy Leader within the turn limit even if each of my guys downed 1 per turn AND survived a bunch of Aberrants one-shotting them AND assuming that the target wasn't just hiding behind a wall 30" away.

Maybe there was going to be another expansion at some point that made psychic powers into something so that GK's and Thousand Sons had a reason to live.... I think we can safely say that is a forlorn hope.

[Cheesegear]

I'm going to just come out and say it: Don't play Grey Knights in Kill-Team.

At the moment, I'm avoiding saying which Factions are outright terrible. But Grey Knights are certainly one of them.

You get five or six models (in 125, of course), and your top Ld is 8. Jesus. "But Cheesegear, Tempestors only have Ld 7!" Yeah. That's fine. But Guard don't start Breaking until you've killed at least five models, and bullets are finite. If three GK models pick up Flesh Wounds, you're basically done. Grey Knights are only Marines, and not even particularly good ones. Everything is riding on your Storm Bolters being effective, and/or your opponent being stupid enough to say "Oh, you've got 5 Storm Bolters +/- a Psilencer or two? I know. I'll clump all my guys together!" If your Storm Bolters don't work - because you're playing against other Marines, or your opponent isn't a muppet - you've got nothing. Strike Knights having one Melee attack has always been a problem. It's been a problem in 'Big 40K' and it's hamstrung GKs in Kill Team, too.

Deathwatch Veterans are cheaper, and better, and that's before you even factor in 'Cheaper = Better'. It's actually, Deathwatch Veterans are cheaper and better, and cheaper, than Grey Knights.

Maybe there was going to be another expansion at some point that made psychic powers into something so that GK's and Thousand Sons had a reason to live...

There is! It's called Commanders, and it's so poorly implemented that GW says that it's not recommended if you want to play a competitive fair game.

[Wraith]

There is! It's called Commanders

Haha! I like you! You're a funny guy!

...No, seriously; I meant another specific expansion after Commanders, just for this stuff.
It'd make sense that there could be the book to introduce more than one psychic power to the game, and maybe even introduce the different factions of Daemons into the game as well since they're so long overdue. That way "the psychic stuff" is a specific box/book that can be permitted or disallowed all in one place for tournaments and the likes.

That would actually be a pretty useful and really interesting book - one that lets you take Daemons as a faction, and gives each other Faction an Elite-equivalent who is a Psyker and gets a table of powers to pick from. They could call it something like.... "Psychic Awakening"? Hmm, bit lame, might need to think on that one for a bit....

[Cheesegear]

one that lets you take Daemons as a faction, and gives each other Faction an Elite-equivalent who is a Psyker and gets a table of powers to pick from. They could call it something like.... "Psychic Awakening"? Hmm, bit lame, might need to think on that one for a bit....

I mean...You can play Daemons in Kill Team. It took them a while to make it. But they do exist.
But it sounds like you intend to make each God a different Faction? It could certainly work. I wouldn't mind at all seeing Flesh Hounds in Kill Team.

[Renegade Paladin]

So I never bought Commanders because of the recommendation against using it in competitive play, but... What, exactly, makes it so bad? Like, if I can't kill a Marine Captain with 200 points of Guardsmen toting eight plasma guns, something is seriously wrong.

In a similar vein, last year before the pandemic I put a guy through his first game of Kill Team. He had the Marines from First Strike (three Intercessors, three Reivers) and... wanted me to just run 20 Guardsmen. It wasn't my plan, but it's what he wanted. So I did, and he couldn't do a damn thing to it. And I wasn't even carefully spacing them.

[Wraith]

If I can't kill a Marine Captain with 200 points of Guardsmen toting eight plasma guns, something is seriously wrong.

That's basically it, to be honest; Commanders are incredibly poorly balanced in and of themselves, and single, powerful units just aren't very good in a skirmish format.

If one person takes a Commander and the other doesn't, then the second person's warband is 3 times the size of their opponent and there's no contest unless you get REALLY lucky with the mission and setup because of the way that morale and break tests are written.
Likewise, if both take Commanders then their warbands are going to be roughly the same size, so the game becomes "kill the other Commander before they kill yours and you win, because you've got the same number of guys AND a Commander".

To be honest, it's not specifically Kill-Team's fault. I would struggle to think of ANY skirmish-sized game where few tough units are better than multiple average ones. It's mostly down to statistics, as we discussed a few pages ago - the less dice you have in the game, the bigger the upset if one dice roll is abnormally high or low, and the best way to get more dice is to have more minis.