Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXIX: Miracle on 39th Thread

[Don Qui Ho Tep]

Re: new AdMech units, I've said before that I really like the clockwork western vibes, but I don't think they fit very well in the established Universe. I think that the Phosphor torches have legs - 5d6 AP -1 shots isn't too shabby, and the 12" range means you don't have to stress about 9" deepstrike. The Flechette Carbine looks like it would be very useful for clearing out screens, but I'm not sure if the entire unit can be armed with them or if it's just a special weapon. I suspect the Phosphor Pterexii will be the Warp Talons to the Flechette Pterexii Raptors - the former just do their job better and aren't burdened by special weapon restrictions.


I have much too much on my table not yet painted, and money's tight at the moment due to 'Rona, but I'm kind of into the idea of a Dark Mechanicus army based around an Outlaw Western theme. My Chaos Knights could proxy just as well for Imperial Knights, so I'd only need about 1000 points worth ~ but that's for later times, if ever. Got lots of stuff to finish in the meantime!

[LansXero]

Sure, but GW dropping something and making previous releases pointless isn't exactly new is it? So what does it matter if PA was just released? If anything it might be that good lore point to jump editions. The question in my mind isn't if you can keep up, but if it's worth bothering to currently.

I liked the theory that Shadowspear and the new marine / chaos codices were supposed to be 9th with PA being their big thing and it got scrapped because they realized it was an awful idea in the first place. If its just going to be like AoS 2.0 then it doesnt really need a name or a number; after all, General's Handbook was a bigger shift than the AoS1 -> AoS2 move. Most people dont really distinguish books from one and the other, they just know Destruction has it bad.

[Forum Explorer]

I liked the theory that Shadowspear and the new marine / chaos codices were supposed to be 9th with PA being their big thing and it got scrapped because they realized it was an awful idea in the first place. If its just going to be like AoS 2.0 then it doesnt really need a name or a number; after all, General's Handbook was a bigger shift than the AoS1 -> AoS2 move. Most people dont really distinguish books from one and the other, they just know Destruction has it bad.

Very much this. Unless GW plans to do a fundamental shift in the rules which would necessitate throwing out all the books that have come out, then there really isn't a point to 9th edition. You can just do Codex 2.0s like they did with Space Marines if you feel a ruleset needs an update.

[Cheesegear]

Really? I find them hilarious.

That's the problem.
AdMech are pragmatic/utilitarian. Finding them stupid hilariously terrible, isn't a positive.

Re: new AdMech units, I've said before that I really like the clockwork western vibes, but I don't think they fit very well in the established Universe.

Anything can fit in 40K, that's what makes it so good.
But, the problem is fitting it with something that already exists. That is, imagine having Dunecrawlers and the Fliers next to each other. It doesn't look right. Perhaps more accurately, it doesn't look AdMech.

For example, look at the Elucidian Starstriders, with the goofy feather hat, an actual flesh-and-bone dog, and the steampunk-inspired vibes they give out. They look fantastic. What makes them so good, is that they don't have to go next to anything. They're their own thing.

I'm the guy who encourages people to play multi-race armies in Cities of Sigmar. I have one, even. Sure, it looks disjointed and chaotic. But also, it's supposed to. Cities of Sigmar is basically a book where individual races/factions, too weak to stand on their own, unify together to fight back the forces of Evil using the power of friendship. Very Lord of the Rings, I guess.

Yeah. That's it. These feel like rejected AoS/Kharadron sculpts.
Like, y'know how Tempest's Eye is full of horses? But also it's full of Duardin? ...Steampunk horses that gotta go fast!

...AdMech...Isn't that. The AdMech shuns difference and innovation (until such difference and innovation is field-tested in secret and without approval; it's easier to ask forgiveness, than permission). More like, if Necrons live in Tombs, then the AdMech live in the desert surrounding them. I expect an AdMech Flier to look more like a Caesetus Assault Ram - or like a Space Wolf Flier - than...That.

Very much this. Unless GW plans to do a fundamental shift in the rules which would necessitate throwing out all the books...

Nobody has to throw out Books.
You have to throw out armies buy new models, where GW disingenuously says you can still use your old models.

[Forum Explorer]

Anything can fit in 40K, that's what makes it so good.
But, the problem is fitting it with something that already exists. That is, imagine having Dunecrawlers and the Fliers next to each other. It doesn't look right. Perhaps more accurately, it doesn't look AdMech.

For example, look at the Elucidian Starstriders, with the goofy feather hat, an actual flesh-and-bone dog, and the steampunk-inspired vibes they give out. They look fantastic. What makes them so good, is that they don't have to go next to anything. They're their own thing.

I'm the guy who encourages people to play multi-race armies in Cities of Sigmar. I have one, even. Sure, it looks disjointed and chaotic. But also, it's supposed to. Cities of Sigmar is basically a book where individual races/factions, too weak to stand on their own, unify together to fight back the forces of Evil using the power of friendship. Very Lord of the Rings, I guess.

Yeah. That's it. These feel like rejected AoS/Kharadron sculpts.
Like, y'know how Tempest's Eye is full of horses? But also it's full of Duardin? ...Steampunk horses that gotta go fast!

...AdMech...Isn't that. The AdMech shuns difference and innovation (until such difference and innovation is field-tested in secret and without approval; it's easier to ask forgiveness, than permission). More like, if Necrons live in Tombs, then the AdMech live in the desert surrounding them. I expect an AdMech Flier to look more like a Caesetus Assault Ram - or like a Space Wolf Flier - than...That.



Nobody has to throw out Books.
You have to throw out armies buy new models, where GW disingenuously says you can still use your old models.

I disagree. I don't think they look bad when put next to other Ad Mech models. Or I should say, they still look as part of the same army/asthetic. Mind you, I might agree that I don't think they match very well with the Dunecrawler or Kastellan Robots, but I feel that's more that those two units are the ones that don't match.

Most of the Ad Mech stuff is old looking I'd describe it. Not worn out, but old fashioned. The aquebus, the Infiltrators, the coils and pipes on their guns and bodies. The Kastellan Robots are much smoother, and much more futuristic looking in comparison.


I've never had to throw out models. Always have to replace my books, but I've never had to replace my models, even when they end up being weak they can sit on the shelf until I'm either playing a (even more) casual game or they become good again.

[Requizen]

Most people dont really distinguish books from one and the other, they just know Destruction has it bad.

Orruk Warclans and Ogor Mawtribes are really good books with solid podium chances, but all the big events got cancelled before they could really debut.

Gloomspite are fairly meh, though. Fun, surely, but meh.

[LeSwordfish]

We know down to the week when 9th Ed was meant to be, because GW compares sales figures week on week - you'll notice that 8th Ed, AOS 2, and War Cry were all the same fiscal week. Before Covid, i'd have be significant money 9th Ed would have been that week or not at all

[Cheesegear]

We know down to the week when 9th Ed was meant to be, because GW compares sales figures week on week - you'll notice that 8th Ed, AOS 2, and War Cry were all the same fiscal week. Before Covid, i'd have be significant money 9th Ed would have been that week or not at all

As with AoS 2, and the 'Living Edition 8th' and all, I'm not expecting a true 9th Ed. I'm expecting it to look like 9th Ed., and I'm expecting it to sound like 9th Ed. But GW wont call it that:
I'm expecting Chapter Approved additions to roll into the rulebook, and all the Missions to be switched around, and almost definitely a change to how terrain works.

I think the fact that they accelerated Deathwatch and Harlequin releases into White Dwarf, instead of writing up a campaign (just extend Death Masque to 'movie length'), means that they're trying to wrap up Psychic Awakening and they lost track of time.

'Gotta get it all out before EoFY', sure. But then what's next? In most editions after a big event...It's been a new edition.
If the pattern held true, people would not be...Unwarranted...To say that maybe 9th Ed. is coming?

[LansXero]

Orruk Warclans and Ogor Mawtribes are really good books with solid podium chances, but all the big events got cancelled before they could really debut.

Gloomspite are fairly meh, though. Fun, surely, but meh.

Both however are severely limited; I dont think all destruction put together has more tools than Stormcasts alone (Might be exagerating, but Im sure its close). Warclans have like one game plan and thats it, Mawtribes probably did suffer from not enough time to grow into their own. But compare that to Death or Order and its just very far behind, in versatility, models, competitive edge, etc.

And there are two new factions on the pipeline: An amazing all new range of Order elves... and big naked humans for Destruction...

If the pattern held true, people would not be...Unwarranted...To say that maybe 9th Ed. is coming?

Im less bothered with the attempt at gainsaying GW (in the post-COVID world who knows what a strong sales week will even look like?) and more puzzled about the celebration of it. Like people want there to be a 9th Edition, which of course is their right, but its absurd to me. I'd much rather have like a Rulebook 2.0 or whatever than an edition shift.

After the Indices, and the recent clownfest that the marines supplements were, I hope GW has learned the lesson that iterative improvement in a slow drip is bull****. Back to AoS, ask Seraphon players how fun it was to run the oldest AoS 1.0 book until very very recently (not that the new book isnt even weaker, but at least its new).

[Cheesegear]

Like people want there to be a 9th Edition, which of course is their right, but its absurd to me.

People want something different. People want the game switched up:
GW promised us that we wouldn't need to carry 7 books to a game. They lied. From the start.
GW promised us that non-Space Marine armies would be competitive. They did it...Then they didn't.
GW promised us that our feedback mattered. It doesn't especially if it's negative feedback.

As this stage of 8th Ed., the 'tier list' is more or less set in stone. People know how the game works, and they know which armies work best in the game.

How many Psychic Awakenings have you bought? One, for the Faction you personally play? Two, maybe? ...Hell, none? Psychic Awakening isn't the shot in the arm to the game people thought it was going to be. It's more or less, more of the same.

People want a new edition, because they need a new edition, because the game is stale.
(I think ITC is stale, and '19!Maelstrom is stale. But Eternal War still works, mostly...Which is something I haven't said since 6th Ed.!)
People want to a new edition because it's new.

After the Indices, and the recent clownfest that the marines supplements were, I hope GW has learned the lesson that iterative improvement in a slow drip is bull****.

Psychic Awakening is still happening!

[Destro_Yersul]

Obviously the solution is to scour ebay for old codexes and go back to playing 4th.

[hamishspence]

It's worth remembering that, from 3e to 7e, the rule was "you can use your previous edition codex until the new one comes out.

Only the 2e to 3e changeover, and the 7e to 8e changeover, made it impossible to use the previous codex (because the basic rules were just that different).

I think it's too early for there to be a "massive rules revision" changeover of this kind, and that when 8e changes over to 9e, it's more likely that it will be a "minor rules differences and your old codex still works" one.



It does feel to me though, that the Psychic Awakening stuff (and the Space Marine mini-codexes) are basically trial rules for the new edition. The last time we had a plethora of psychic schools being introduced (Geokinesis etc) was shortly before 8e.

[PraetorDragoon]

So wishlisting and pattern-looking. Could be it, could not be it. I am leaning towards the latter.

A more important question would be: what are the problems of 8th and how can they be fixed in a rule book? Personally (at least why I don't play anymore) the core problem is high lethality, and the solution to that is to nerf a bunch of weapons in codexes, as for rulebook changes you don't have many options there.

[hamishspence]

A more important question would be: what are the problems of 8th and how can they be fixed in a rule book?

Personally I think Marines in particular are very, very prone to rules bloat. I personally think most of the Marine variants are not different enough to deserve their own codex, plus one of the things I don't like about them is that they keep losing access to Vanilla Space Marine Stuff, then gaining most of it (but not all) again, a little bit at a time.

Why not just give them all the Marine stuff (and Marines most of their stuff) from scratch?

I can't see why Blood Angels wouldn't have Centurions if all regular Chapters have them, for example.

And conversely, I can't see why regular Marines wouldn't have, for example, something that functions like Sanguinary Guard, for a chapter that loves Jump Packs, or Black Knights for a chapter that loves bikes.


Turn Honor Guard into something that can take a Black Knight Bike, or Deathwing Knight kit, or Sanguinary Guard stuff, or a huge riding animal like a Thunderwolf, and you can basically roll Blood Angels and Dark Angels and even Space Wolves into the Space Marine codex, just like when 3e first came out.


"Rolling Blood Angels and Dark Angels and Space Wolves into the Space Marine Codex" might lose them a lot of uniqueness, but it would gain them access to good stuff - Centurions, Thunderfire cannons, etc.

I bet there are Space Wolf players who'd love to paint their own Assault Centurions in the Space Wolf colours, for example.

Conversely, I'm sure there's regular Marine players who'd like to paint and field Baal Predators.


The current system, artificially inflates the number of unit entries massively. You don't need a separate entry for Primaris Captain In Regular Mark X, Primaris Captain in Gravis Mark X, Primaris Captain In Phobos. You only need a Primaris Captain - the others can be built into his stat block as kit that he can take.

You don't need 3 versions of the Land Raider - you can have one version with lots of weapon swap options. And so on.

The same applies to most Codices - but Marines have the worst case of this.

[Brookshw]

People want something different. People want the game switched up:
GW promised us that we wouldn't need to carry 7 books to a game. They lied. From the start.
GW promised us that non-Space Marine armies would be competitive. They did it...Then they didn't.
GW promised us that our feedback mattered. It doesn't especially if it's negative feedback.

Also, people want to make reasonably informed decisions with some level of confidence that the factors and premises involved in those decisions will stay true for a reasonable amount of time, especially when it comes to purchasing. With the expectation that 9e is (was) expected sometime this year it's hard to have that confidence. It's one thing if you can expect stability of a given value for one to two years, it's another if you don't know if you'll get two months.

[Cheesegear]

I think it's too early for there to be a "massive rules revision" changeover of this kind

The problem is that it's eactly the right time for a rules revision. Players are despondent, because of one or two seemingly mono-dominant Factions, and there appears to be no more releases after the next major one, as GW moves to pumping out AoS stuff. Usually, that means that the next release for 40K is 'big'.

4th - 2004
5th - 2008 (+4yrs)
6th - 2012 (+4yrs)
7th - 2014 (+2yrs)
8th - 2017 (+3yrs)
9th - 2020?

...That's the problem.
GW is just finishing up a huge expansion to the game, right around the time of year that they'd drop a new edition, right around the time in the cycle when they'd perhaps announce a new edition. We know that, if anything, "But they just released Psychic Awakening! Why would they blow that all up?" is exactly the reason they would start a new 40K cycle; because they're done with this edition, time for a new one.

Like most companies, GW is gonna have to also recoup losses from COVID. 9th Ed. seems like a real likely holiday release, if it's already planned.

Otherwise 2021 looks like the end of 8th.

that when 8e changes over to 9e, it's more likely that it will be a "minor rules differences and your old codex still works" one.

You mean like every edition has done?
Just because 'you can still use it', doesn't mean GW actually cares; See Tactical Marines, and see everything GW Legends'd.
"You can use it, but also it's banned. So you'll never use it again. sozlol."
"You can use it, but also it's nerfed out of the game. So you'll never use it again. sozlol."

are basically trial rules for the new edition.

...Exactly?
I shudder to think what happens if the game moves to Apocalypse rules. Luckily, that format didn't take off.

[Voidhawk]

I'm kind of into the idea of a Dark Mechanicus army based around an Outlaw Western theme. My Chaos Knights could proxy just as well for Imperial Knights, so I'd only need about 1000 points worth ~ but that's for later times, if ever. Got lots of stuff to finish in the meantime!

If you give a Knight a massive Stetson hat and a Smith-&-Wesson revolver for a battlecannon, you'll win everything.

[hamishspence]

You mean like every edition has done?

Not 2e to 3e, and not 7e to 8e. You couldn't use a 2e codex in 3e (you had to use the get-you-by lists in the main 3e rulebook instead) and you couldn't use a 7e codex in 8e (you had to buy and use the Index books instead).


I'm arguing that it's more likely that this will be more like the intermediate changeovers - 3e-4e, 4e-5e, 5e-6e, and 6e-7e.

...Exactly?

I would speculate that ideas like "nearly every First Founding Chapter gets its own Rite that a Chaplain has access to" or

"Master Apothecary, Master Librarian, etc exist, as Stratagems" are the testbeds for what they'll include in 9e's Chaplain entry, and 9e's Stratagems, for the Space Marine Codex, which will be one of the first out.

[LeSwordfish]

We've just had a set of Space Marine books, I doubt they'll be first. I think more likely is that 9E will be fully compatible with 8E books (as AOS2 was with a few FAQs) and the first few codices will be things like Guard, Grey Knights, Dark Angels etc, where pretty much the only change is adding the handful of Psychic Awakening rules.

[hamishspence]

The main reason I think they'd do Space Marines first, is that Space Marines are currently suffering from a severe case of Book Bloat.

New Marine players are going to be thinking "I don't want to buy a boatload of books just to gain access to every Marine rule available".

Hence compressing everything Marine-related, down into one book.

Has there ever been an edition in which Marines were not one of the first books out?

[PraetorDragoon]

I would put more money on a plastic Hrud sculpt than GW recompressing marine books into one again.

[Cheesegear]

Has there ever been an edition in which Marines were not one of the first books out?

Your 5th Ed. is showing.

6th Ed. has Space Marines out sixth, almost a full year after the edition came out. Out of the 10 or so Codecies out that edition, sixth is pretty bad. Remembering that 6th Ed. only lasted two years, so Marines came out almost exactly halfway into the cycle...If you don't count Dark Angels. People often forget that 6th Ed. (i.e; The Xenos Edition) was a really bad time to play Space Marines.

Likewise, Space Marines didn't come out for almost a full year after 7th Ed., too. The beginning of 7th Ed. did not have Space Marines in it.

[hamishspence]

So, 3e, 4e, 5e, and 8e all started with a vanilla Marines codex, and 6e and 7e didn't? Fair enough.

8e is possibly the only edition with two Marine Codexes (and two Chaos Marine Codexes) 3e had 2 Chaos Marine Codexes but not 2 Marine Codexes.

There was a long gap between 3e's second Chaos Codex and the next one after that. That might justify a long gap between 8e's second Marine Codex, and the next one after that.

[Cheesegear]

That might justify a long gap between 8e's second Marine Codex, and the next one after that.

"You see [new kid], 20 years ago, you got a new Codex pretty fast. You weren't even born yet and you definitely weren't even playing the game. But that's why you can't have a new Codex."

[hamishspence]

Make up your mind - does it make sense for GW to bring out new SM codexes early in new editions, or not?


They got a new codex early in 8e and a second, replacement, codex late in 8e - does this make it plausible that GW will bring their 9e one out later, as per 6e and 7e, or not?

[Cheesegear]

Make up your mind - does it make sense for GW to bring out new SM codexes early in new editions, or not?

Depends on how well the Codex is written 'for the edition', and I imagine that sales have a big thing to do with it.
If you want Space Marines to sell, you gotta make 'em quickly, and you gotta make 'em good.

[Lord Torath]

Social Isolation = no games = terrain-building time. I finished the storage tank piece I've been working on:

Spoiler: First, without paint:

Show

Spoiler: And Front and Back with a Heavy Bolter thrown in for scale:

Show

Anyone else working on terrain?

[Cheesegear]

Social Isolation = no games = terrain-building time.

In Australia, we're allowed up to two people over.
So I'm playing Kill Team on my dining table.

Anyone else working on terrain?

I'm strongly considering working on something for Armies on Parade. But,
a) I don't know if that would even still be happening this year, and,
b) I don't have any materials and can't buy anything.

Otherwise yours looks pretty good. I'm not really a fan of terrain with 'block' bases, though. Area terrain can have a base and usually it looks okay. For buildings, ruins, etc., I prefer that they don't have bases.

[LansXero]

See, since through the store Im financially tied to an extent to the soundness of GW decisions, I seriously hope they dont think the way you assume they do.

In what cobweb-filled, rheuma-afflicted boomer mind is the 2020 market in any ways similar to anything pre-Amazon / pre-3D printing to give a flying crap about the date of any past editions or how long they lasted, let alone the very early ones? Im not saying its impossible, Im saying it'd be completely dumb of them to take any "cyclic" aproach to things. The resurgence of 8th edition isnt just because it was new; had you merely shifted 7th enough to be backwards compatible like 6th was to it, you would've end up as dead as 30k is now. 8th is built with an entirely different consumer base in mind, not that Power made any sense but the thing is, it has to fit newer, modern sensibilities.

People want a shakedown, but people ALSO dont want to re-learn the game. They want no rules bloat, but also want brand new rules. So they wanna keep their cake but eat it too. Which is just bogus shifting wishlists. "I want MY faction to be better, so make a new edition!" Like your xenos faction will get their book anytime soon or will be any more relevant just because of an edition shift. At least PA brought the GKs from the dumpster bin into the top tables, so its not like PA doesnt do "anything", its just that it doesnt do enough for enough people. And now, to throw that all out for another round of balance merry go round.

[Lord Torath]

IOtherwise yours looks pretty good. I'm not really a fan of terrain with 'block' bases, though. Area terrain can have a base and usually it looks okay. For buildings, ruins, etc., I prefer that they don't have bases.

I was planning on the only base being the tank supports, but then I realized I needed the chemical barrels and the ladders to be mounted on something, or they'd be constantly breaking off. So...

Now I need to come up with another idea. I'm currently all out of Tomato Paste cans...