Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXIX: Miracle on 39th Thread

[Cheesegear]

People want a shakedown, but people ALSO dont want to re-learn the game. They want no rules bloat, but also want brand new rules. So they wanna keep their cake but eat it too.

This is the problem.
GW doesn't update old stuff. They're constantly adding new stuff, forcing you to add to the pile. If the new stuff also has problems, it makes the Codex worse, not better. Just piling garbage onto garbage. Which is what Psychic Awakening, is, for the most part. PA is not an improvement for most Codecies, it's an addition. People don't want more. They want less, and better.

Quality, over Quantity, as they say.

"I want MY faction to be better, so make a new edition!"

I want my Faction to be better. Write me a new Codex with no false choices, part of doing that, involves going over the previous Codex and fixing issues. GW infamously doesn't backtrack.

At least PA brought the GKs from the dumpster bin into the top tables...

It didn't, though. It brought Paladins out of the dumpster fire. The rest of the Codex is still burning.

its just that it doesnt do enough for enough people.

Because it doesn't fix problems. It merely adds new options.

The GK Codex, since that's your example, has cracked foundations. GW put spackle in the cracks and painted over it. Yeah. It looks nice. But if you don't like the colour of paint, it's worthless, and the colour of paint is the least important part of the foundation.

If you've got a Codex, and you're saying "This is the best build for this Codex, and all other options are objectively terrible." then you have a bad Codex. Unfortunately, it's in GW's interests to make 'cracked' Codecies because it prioritises the buying of certain models, and not other ones.

As I said at the top, adding garbage to garbage, only makes the pile of garbage bigger.
A polished turd, is a turd, after all.

[LansXero]

This is the problem.
GW doesn't update old stuff. They're constantly adding new stuff, forcing you to add to the pile. If the new stuff also has problems, it makes the Codex worse, not better. Just piling garbage onto garbage. Which is what Psychic Awakening, is, for the most part. PA is not an improvement for most Codecies, it's an addition. People don't want more. They want less, and better.

Quality, over Quantity, as they say.

The problem being people cant and wont let go. Some people cry they are bored of their 20k unpainted points and want to "shake it up" with something new, while others will bemoan they never get to unshelve any of their old staples. Its a very tough balancing act, as if you add nothing new then your only income source is new players or spaztic whales and neither is a big enough niche to focus solely on; however, if you completely invalidate the old (not just nerf/overcost out of the meta, but straight up legends it) you piss off not only nostalgic boomer, but a complex chain of distributors and retailers still with tons of the stuff sitting there trickling out. Which is why Im so glad they underprint the new popular; everyone would love to cash in on them, except they wouldnt because it'd end up discounted on amazon or ebay if it was easily available. It retains value because of scarcity, however artificial it might be, and avoids having to think about them when nerfing things because its all sold, what do we care what happens to it anymore?

I want my Faction to be better. Write me a new Codex with no false choices, part of doing that, involves going over the previous Codex and fixing issues. GW infamously doesn't backtrack.

And yet Marines 2.0 exist. Which isnt exactly fixing the old codex, but it is admitting the oldest codex wasnt up to par. It wasnt all new, it was a rehash with some stuff added because of course.

It didn't, though. It brought Paladins out of the dumpster fire. The rest of the Codex is still burning.

If there were still events, you'd see Strike Spam soon after.

Because it doesn't fix problems. It merely adds new options.

Thats because nobody can agree on what the problems are, because not everybody has the same play / spending habits and as such nobody looks at the game with a common enough perspective to have a baseline. This is exactly why "three ways to play" was and is bull****, this schizophrenic design gives us things like primaris-chaptermasters who are randomly good or bad but mostly for hobbyists and a ghazkull thats a centerpiece model that wont even be any better than a way cheaper generic boss due to rules in the same freaking book.

Of course, 3 ways to play is still smart money so long as you can mantain the illusion that its an actual thing, but all three of the ways suffer for it.

[Cheesegear]

The problem being people cant and wont let go.

That's part of it, yes. Sunk cost fallacy will never, ever go away.
Especially because the sunk cost isn't just currency (which is also a lot, anyway).

Some people cry they are bored of their 20k unpainted points and want to "shake it up" with something new, while others will bemoan they never get to unshelve any of their old staples.

Someone with 20K Points should be constantly shaking it up.
As someone with 20K Points, I can tell you that ~17K of it, is worthless. So with effectively only 3K Points, how much I can 'shake it up' is still limited, despite 'all' the models I have.

Its a very tough balancing act, as if you add nothing new...

You can add new stuff. That's no problem.
But the problem is adding new stuff, whilst bad stuff still remains.

if you completely invalidate the old (not just nerf/overcost out of the meta, but straight up legends it)

But, for the sake of the game, that's exactly what you need to do.
If your intent is to throw something in the garbage, you have to take it to the dump, as well. You can't just leave it festering outside.

Telling people 'you can still use your old models' when they so obviously can't, is rules bloat. Stop that.
Either make Tactical Marines good, or get them out of the Codex.

If you're worried about the market, tell people; "In six months, we're deleting Tactical Marines. This is your chance to get your games in with them now, while you still can. This is your warning, right now, that you should probably start buying new models and getting prepared."

GW needs to stop adding. And needs to start deleting and replacing. Otherwise you get exactly what's happening now; Rules bloat and subsequent community disinterest because no-one can 'keep up', so why keep up with any of it? Can we please stop all this **** and go back to simpler times where there was one Index?

Confused Boomers who want to use their old models, aren't buying new models. That's why they want to use their old ones.
Confused Boomers who quit the game because GW invalidates their old models, are also not buying new models.
No change.

M;tG straight up tells people that cards - every card - has a limited shelf life. People still buy cards. All the time. Because the game is worth playing.

Which is why Im so glad they underprint the new popular...

They underprint everything, in order to talk about higher sales percentages ("We sold 100% of our stock, we're so good as doing the business.") Whether or not it's popular can't become clear until after release.

because its all sold, what do we care what happens to it anymore?

'It's okay to nerf something if it's sold out!'
That's exactly how you get something to stop selling out, 'cause eventually people stop buying altogether.

And yet Marines 2.0 exist. Which isnt exactly fixing the old codex, but it is admitting the oldest codex wasnt up to par.

No. It's admitting that rules sell models, and Space Marines aren't selling.
Space Wolves needed a full rewrite...The day it was printed. But why backtrack? Keep pumping out new products and ignore anything we've already made.

Thats because nobody can agree on what the problems are, because not everybody has the same play / spending habits and as such nobody looks at the game with a common enough perspective to have a baseline.

a) Do you listen to people who play the game and actually use your product? Or,
b) Do you listen to people who spend money?

GW very clearly goes with option B.
GW can release dog**** if they think people would buy it. And that's exactly what happens, all the time. It doesn't need to be a quality product, if it's popular enough, it just has to exist.

Which, again; Great business. Horrible for the game.

[Renegade Paladin]

I was planning on the only base being the tank supports, but then I realized I needed the chemical barrels and the ladders to be mounted on something, or they'd be constantly breaking off. So...

Now I need to come up with another idea. I'm currently all out of Tomato Paste cans...

The base makes sense for this particular terrain piece, though; you don't just mount tanks on the ground. They'd have a slab.

How'd you reseal the cans? Soldering?

[DataNinja]

M;tG straight up tells people that cards - every card - has a limited shelf life. People still buy cards. All the time. Because the game is worth playing.

There's a difference here. A MTG card is ready, right there, out of the box. You don't need to spend hours putting the card together and painting the card. You can use it, it's (in theory) fairly cheap, and you haven't put time, heart, and soul into making it yours.

[lord_khaine]

Yeah thats a significant differrence. You do develop a different connection to the model you spend a week converting.
Compared to the card you got in a random booster.

[LansXero]

Not to mention the growing popularity of Commander as opposed to Standard due to no rotation. But the other bit is also that those 2 years are choke full of competition and games. A Magic player will probably play more games of magic in that period than a 40k player will play in his life.

[LeSwordfish]

How'd you reseal the cans? Soldering?

Why reseal them? They're just still full of soup.

[Destro_Yersul]

Not to mention the growing popularity of Commander as opposed to Standard due to no rotation. But the other bit is also that those 2 years are choke full of competition and games. A Magic player will probably play more games of magic in that period than a 40k player will play in his life.

And those games won't take multiple hours each.

[Brookshw]

Why reseal them? They're just still full of soup.

Hah! Brilliant

[Wraith]

May or may not be relevant to peoples' interests, but I can't think of a better place to tell: Humble Bundle are doing a deal for the Deathwatch RPG books between now and the 27th. A dollar will get you the main rule book and two of the expansions, with everything - 18 separate .pdfs - included for under $20.*

That's actually a pretty good deal, and while I personally prefer Dark Heresy to Deathwatch I can attest that it's still a really good game - it has an interesting niche where you START playing as a high level/high powered PC for once, which I don't think I've seen as standard in any other system. Not that it helps when the swarms (plural) of Bloodletters show up, but y'know, it's something....

Since there's still some weeks of lockdown left, and everyone seems to be infesting Roll20 with games, and we're all GW nerds here, maybe some of you might be interested in the optimum combination of all three, for cheap?

* This post not is sponsored by or otherwise connected to either Humble or Cubicle 7

[Lord Torath]

The base makes sense for this particular terrain piece, though; you don't just mount tanks on the ground. They'd have a slab.

How'd you reseal the cans? Soldering?

I used a rubber-cement type glue called Quick Grip. I also used the "Smooth Edge" type of can opener that slices the"foldover" of the lid along the outside rim of the can, rather than the "Swing A-Way" type the cuts through the top surface.

Why reseal them? They're just still full of soup.

It's okay, we'll just have a few mystery meals. No harm done.

[Brookshw]

Started working on an Ork Weirdboy. Turns out, kinda hard model to paint, lots of barely accessible parts thanks to the grot handlers and I can't even tell what some of the many trinkets are.

[LansXero]

And those games won't take multiple hours each.

Even if you go by total time spent, Im willing to bet it still skews in favor of cardboard players, if only because 20 /30 mins. sections are easier to slot for than 3- 4 hour matches that require hauling a small shelf around with you.

However, there is at large a huge tendency for people to not use their models. Be it because of the time commitment, "its not painted yet", "its not WYSIWYG yet", "I dont like X change so I'll wait it out", etc. I was horrified when I met the old community here because they had one big 4 vs 4 every year and like 4 or 5 afternoons to game in total. Thats it, 6 games a year, and not everyone got to play or finish their games, so more like 3 - 4. Why would I ever spend GW prices on things I'll use that little? O_O

[Blackhawk748]

May or may not be relevant to peoples' interests, but I can't think of a better place to tell: Humble Bundle are doing a deal for the Deathwatch RPG books between now and the 27th. A dollar will get you the main rule book and two of the expansions, with everything - 18 separate .pdfs - included for under $20.*

That's actually a pretty good deal, and while I personally prefer Dark Heresy to Deathwatch I can attest that it's still a really good game - it has an interesting niche where you START playing as a high level/high powered PC for once, which I don't think I've seen as standard in any other system. Not that it helps when the swarms (plural) of Bloodletters show up, but y'know, it's something....

Since there's still some weeks of lockdown left, and everyone seems to be infesting Roll20 with games, and we're all GW nerds here, maybe some of you might be interested in the optimum combination of all three, for cheap?

* This post not is sponsored by or otherwise connected to either Humble or Cubicle 7

Oooh, I may nab that. I have the Basic Book in hardback, but I wouldn't mind having the rest to make sure I have them.

[Destro_Yersul]

However, there is at large a huge tendency for people to not use their models. Be it because of the time commitment, "its not painted yet", "its not WYSIWYG yet", "I dont like X change so I'll wait it out", etc. I was horrified when I met the old community here because they had one big 4 vs 4 every year and like 4 or 5 afternoons to game in total. Thats it, 6 games a year, and not everyone got to play or finish their games, so more like 3 - 4. Why would I ever spend GW prices on things I'll use that little? O_O

I think my total number of games all last year was... maybe 1.5? But I enjoy painting the miniatures and they look cool when they're done, so even if I hardly ever get to play I'll still buy the ocassional thing.

[Renegade Paladin]

I work super hard to make games happen, but the irony is that since I'm organizing I don't get to play very much, and last time I did play ringer in a tournament to cover a drop, people got mad.

[snowblizz]

Even if you go by total time spent, Im willing to bet it still skews in favor of cardboard players, if only because 20 /30 mins. sections are easier to slot for than 3- 4 hour matches that require hauling a small shelf around with you.

However, there is at large a huge tendency for people to not use their models. Be it because of the time commitment, "its not painted yet", "its not WYSIWYG yet", "I dont like X change so I'll wait it out", etc. I was horrified when I met the old community here because they had one big 4 vs 4 every year and like 4 or 5 afternoons to game in total. Thats it, 6 games a year, and not everyone got to play or finish their games, so more like 3 - 4. Why would I ever spend GW prices on things I'll use that little? O_O

That's the thing. Playing Warhammer for the vast majority is less about the actual game than the stuff around it. Because, again for most, getting the actual game going takes a lot of effort. It's not a coincidence most gaming groups who meet regularly tend to once a week or less even.

In contrast the cardplayers at my previous FLGS clearly were much more active, though store organized card-tournaments of some kind regularly becasue that drove traffic and sales. And it seemed a lot cheaper too, but I can't say for sure on that.

My gut feeling on the difference in cost is cards are cheaper individually, and you have a lower, steadier outlay, but also easier and steadier play. Whereas Warhammer are bigger invdividual buys, bigger effort, and I would argue bigger payoff in the game. So basically you get you hobby in bigger meatier chunks with a lot leaner periods in between.

And because the image amuses me, cardplayers are like gazelles grazing the savannah, eating a bit all the time, Warhammer players are like big crocodiles who eat a couple of times every year.

[LansXero]

It's not a coincidence most gaming groups who meet regularly tend to once a week or less even.

Yeah and it does colour the perception of the game quite a bit. We usually play every weekend, and sometimes weekdays (or used to, damn virus) so for us there is a ton of playtime in between each release, which means its a nice shake up. I can see people who get like a game or two before the rug gets pulled from under them be more salty.

[snowblizz]

Yeah and it does colour the perception of the game quite a bit. We usually play every weekend, and sometimes weekdays (or used to, damn virus) so for us there is a ton of playtime in between each release, which means its a nice shake up. I can see people who get like a game or two before the rug gets pulled from under them be more salty.

Between 4th and 5th ed I managed to get in maybe 1-2 40k games. Somewhere around that I stopped buying all codices too. I would actually even say they manage to combine the worst aspects of too much change with too little change. My Ork playing friend had his way of play ruined as of 4th, and it never really picked up. IIRC Orks were one the weaker armies of that period and my Chaos felt gutted (and thematically daft). Meanwhile they chug out expansions and a never ending rollout of various Space Marine paintschemes. So there is change, "keeping things fresh", but fixing fundamental flaws happens too slow.

I had similar problems in WHFB, my Beastmen army never got an 8th book, and I'm almost positive some races got a second one, or at least had a good book that worked before being further boosted.

Occasionally they manage to get things kinda right, the 2nd version 3rd edition Chaos codex was in every way a massive improvement. And I don't quite remember if it was 6th edition WHFB they did a second armybook for High Elves massively improving a really bad army.


Shant forget I read an articel in Wargames Illustrated by a industry insider about the economics of a new edition and the crass reality is it boosts sales.

[hamishspence]

GW has been known to merge units over time.

Back in 3e, Land Speeder, Land Speeder Tornado, and Land Speeder Typhoon were separate entries. Now they're one generic Land Speeder entry with weapon options.

Predator Destructor and Predator Annihilator were merged, to become "Predator" with two turret options.

Leman Russ, Leman Russ Demolisher, and their many variants - are all now one entry, with turret options.


And so forth.


This reduces unit bloat a bit, when they're doing this - merging entries that don't need to be separate, at the same time as introducing new entries.

Unfortunately, Codexes in general and Codex Marines in particular have created new units that used to be just wargear options. Captain and Captain In Terminator Armour weren't always separate entries, for example - only fairly recently (6e or so?) have they become this way.

They need to do a lot of consolidation, if they want to minimise this kind of unit bloat.

Why have "Hunter" and "Stalker" when you can have "Anti-Air Tank" (or whatever they choose to call it) with two different weapon options?
Why have 3 different Land Raiders, when in practice, one Land Raider statblock with different weapon options and transport values, can do the job?
And so forth.

[Blackhawk748]

Between 4th and 5th ed I managed to get in maybe 1-2 40k games. Somewhere around that I stopped buying all codices too. I would actually even say they manage to combine the worst aspects of too much change with too little change. My Ork playing friend had his way of play ruined as of 4th, and it never really picked up. IIRC Orks were one the weaker armies of that period and my Chaos felt gutted (and thematically daft). Meanwhile they chug out expansions and a never ending rollout of various Space Marine paintschemes. So there is change, "keeping things fresh", but fixing fundamental flaws happens too slow.

4th Ed Orks were great. It was one of the best Codexes we ever got. 5th ed hit and it was terrible and then we ate dirt until 7th. Which also sucked.

[Tvtyrant]

I saw the newish Armigers and wanted to know if an all Armiger army is viable and if so at what point value? I like the design of the Armigers and they seem more viable then my Helbrute and Cultist army.

[Cheesegear]

I saw the newish Armigers and wanted to know if an all Armiger army is viable...

That's a negative.
Any army geared to kill Iron Hands, will have the exact same solution against you, except you're not Iron Hands.

[Tvtyrant]

That's a negative.
Any army geared to kill Iron Hands, will have the exact same solution against you, except you're not Iron Hands.

Dang. They seemed really cool. Oh well.

[hamishspence]

Dang. They seemed really cool. Oh well.

They're good - just not if they're the only thing in the army. They need something else with them.

As Cheesegear's guide points out:

https://forums.giantitp.com/showsing...1&postcount=12

they are typically outsourced to other armies, because they're so much better than Dreadnoughts.

Based on this:

Terryn, Super-Heavies (+6)
Errant
(W) Gallant; Landstrider, Paragon Gauntlet
Warden

Raven, Super-Heavies (+3)
Helverin
Helverin
(C) Crusader; The Helm Dominatus

Heirlooms (-1)

Total: At least 1950. | 11 CPs

If you're playing (solo) Imperial Knights, and can't make dual Detachments, you're doing it wrong.
Armigers save the entire Faction.

they're good with bigger knights backing them up.

But, as pointed out:

You can take 9-10 Armigers & Guilliman, at 2K. It's just as dumb as it sounds. Either you wont get games at all, or you'll be tabled in three turns.

army of mostly Armigers, gets tabled fast.

[Destro_Yersul]

Been getting some painting done while I'm stuck at home with nothing to do. Here's a squad of Rubrics and their sorcerer.

Spoiler

Show

[Cheesegear]

My local game store has reopened. No games allowed. But we can still buy minis and hobby supplies (gee, thanks).
So, for now, I'm still stuck only playing Kill Team (still can't manage to get into WarCry).

But yeah. Now that hobby's back, I can start working on Armies on Parade - providing it even happens this year.

I'd like to do something with Deathwatch or AdMech (not the new stuff). But I don't know what to do.
What are some cool ideas?

Derp. I finish the Blood Ravens I was meant to do last year.

[PraetorDragoon]

Looks like the Silent King is coming back.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/...mepage-post-3/

[Turalisj]

I'm not holding my breath.