Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXIX: Miracle on 39th Thread

[Turalisj]

X-Wing also has the advantage of being able to open a package and play right away with the model.

[LeSwordfish]

In fairness, that's only an advantage if you don't enjoy building or painting.

[Blackhawk748]

X-Wing also has the advantage of being able to open a package and play right away with the model.

They also look really good for pre-painted models. I've also seen people paint them as well, so you can still do that if you want.

[Cheesegear]

They also look really good for pre-painted models. I've also seen people paint them as well, so you can still do that if you want.

I've done that (because I'm a filthy casual, turns out). When I wanted to differentiate between Kath Scarlet's red-and-white Firespray. Back in the long, long ago, when Scarlet Cowgirl was a viable list (i.e; Two Firesprays and a Lambda Shuttle). Although I think the list was refined down to one Firespray (Scarlet), Lambda, and two Academy Pilots. But by then, I'd quit X-Wing.

[Blackhawk748]

I've done that (because I'm a filthy casual, turns out). When I wanted to differentiate between Kath Scarlet's red-and-white Firespray. Back in the long, long ago, when Scarlet Cowgirl was a viable list (i.e; Two Firesprays and a Lambda Shuttle). Although I think the list was refined down to one Firespray (Scarlet), Lambda, and two Academy Pilots. But by then, I'd quit X-Wing.

I was the crazy nutjob who ran 2 Y-wings with Ion and 4 Z-95s with concusion missiles. Always surprised people when they couldn't move and got hammered.

I should really check out 2.0

[Squark]

I was the crazy nutjob who ran 2 Y-wings with Ion and 4 Z-95s with concusion missiles. Always surprised people when they couldn't move and got hammered.

I should really check out 2.0

X-wing 2.0... is fundamentally the same game, but FFG did reign in a fair number of things. Munitions and turrets in particular got the benefit of having later changes and experiments rolled into the bas mechanics. Dice Modification is still king, though. Converting can be a bit of a pain, though.

[Renegade Paladin]

Yeah, I'm still waiting on them to re-release the X-wing pilots that were in the old Rebel Transport expansion so I can run my Empire Strikes Back-era Rogue Squadron aces list again.

[Blackhawk748]

This is making me think of how odd the choice of making Aeronautica is. Like, even if its a good game (and it seems fine to me) it's competing with a game that's been out for a few years now and has a pretty big following, not mentioning the WWII game its based off of. I think it would have been smarter to remake Battlefleet Gothic specifically because of the game that just came out and the sequel that is either out or gonna be out shortly (I hadn't kept up)

And Battlefleet Gothic was pretty well received, so it just seems odd to me.

[Forum Explorer]

X-wing 2.0... is fundamentally the same game, but FFG did reign in a fair number of things. Munitions and turrets in particular got the benefit of having later changes and experiments rolled into the bas mechanics. Dice Modification is still king, though. Converting can be a bit of a pain, though.

The conversion kits worked really well for me. But I suppose getting one of those now would be pretty difficult.

Yeah, I'm still waiting on them to re-release the X-wing pilots that were in the old Rebel Transport expansion so I can run my Empire Strikes Back-era Rogue Squadron aces list again.

The rules for them are out at least. They just aren't in 'Hyperspace format' yet, which is stupid considering Worlds ran under Extended (Which is all ships and rules in the game, not just the stuff that has been rereleased or is new) and everything actually worked out really well balance wise.

[Squark]

The conversion kits worked really well for me. But I suppose getting one of those now would be pretty difficult.

They're still quite available here in the US, but they the cost of converting was a sticking point for some longtime players. I suppose for most former GW customers the cost of the kits isn't as hard to swallow, but the FFG forums had a lot of... heated discussions. The one-size-fits-some approach also rankled some people. For the older, more established factions, they tried to make it so that 2 conversion kits would get you most of what you needed if you wanted to run a full 200 points of a single ship (So, 4 X-wings or 6 A-wings), but some ships get shafted a bit with the generics- The scum kit gives you 4 z-95 dials, but only cards and tiles enough to run 3 Binayre Pirates, for instance. So this Kath Scarlett focused list I threw together when I saw Cheesegear's comment would be short the materials needed for the 4th Binayre Pirate unless you bought a second core set. Granted, with X-wing as big as it is in the Midwestern U.S., it's just a matter of letting a buddy know in advance I need to borrow some cardboard if I wanted to bring this to a tournament, but I know it's a lot harder if you're not in a dense area where the game is very popular.


The smaller kits for the resistance and first order were much better, though, since apart from one glaring exception*, they came with enough stuff to convert 200 points worth of each ship.


*Still kind of peeved they only gave us one Black Squadron Ace in the Resistance kit when flying four of them is perfectly possible.

The rules for them are out at least. They just aren't in 'Hyperspace format' yet, which is stupid considering Worlds ran under Extended (Which is all ships and rules in the game, not just the stuff that has been rereleased or is new) and everything actually worked out really well balance wise.

Not... exactly. Some pilots didn't make the jump to second edition. Hobbie, Tycho, and Wes Janson are probably the most high profile cases, but a fair number of more obscure pilots also failed to make the jump. The Tie Interceptor losing all of its pilots from Imperial Aces was probably the most drastic cut, but the RZ-1 A-wing also suffers from losing its highest initiative pilot.

Oh, and the Firespray and the Havoc became exclusive to Scum, which rankled some old Imperial Players who lost access to Boba Fett.
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Just to be clear, I do actually like X-wing 2.0 a lot. It's just the combination of living on the big Midwestern Tournament Circuit, being friends with a fair number of Nationals-Worlds Players, and browsing the Fantasy Flight Forums a fair bit means I've heard just about every complaint, and I do like to make sure people are informed consumers. If people want to discuss X-wing some more, I think we'd be better off doing it in a dedicated thread, though.

[Renegade Paladin]

The rules for them are out at least. They just aren't in 'Hyperspace format' yet, which is stupid considering Worlds ran under Extended (Which is all ships and rules in the game, not just the stuff that has been rereleased or is new) and everything actually worked out really well balance wise.

The rules for Janson, Hobbie, and Tarn Mison are out? Since when? They aren't listed among the pilots for the X-wing on the wiki.

Anyway, I really stepped in it. There's a new wargaming convention starting in Indianapolis and I wound up volunteering myself to run a 40k Learn to Play slot after noticing that there wasn't one (when there were demos for basically every other game under the sun).

[Squark]

The rules for Janson, Hobbie, and Tarn Mison are out? Since when? They aren't listed among the pilots for the X-wing on the wiki.

They're not. The community is hoping they'll make it into a future Hotshots and Aces-like pack, but there's no word of them coming any time soon.

[LeSwordfish]

I like how beloved star wars characters "Hobbie" "Janson" and "Tarn Mison" are not, in fact, among the More Obscure group.

[Forum Explorer]

Not... exactly. Some pilots didn't make the jump to second edition. Hobbie, Tycho, and Wes Janson are probably the most high profile cases, but a fair number of more obscure pilots also failed to make the jump. The Tie Interceptor losing all of its pilots from Imperial Aces was probably the most drastic cut, but the RZ-1 A-wing also suffers from losing its highest initiative pilot.

Oh, and the Firespray and the Havoc became exclusive to Scum, which rankled some old Imperial Players who lost access to Boba Fett.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Just to be clear, I do actually like X-wing 2.0 a lot. It's just the combination of living on the big Midwestern Tournament Circuit, being friends with a fair number of Nationals-Worlds Players, and browsing the Fantasy Flight Forums a fair bit means I've heard just about every complaint, and I do like to make sure people are informed consumers. If people want to discuss X-wing some more, I think we'd be better off doing it in a dedicated thread, though.

Huh, I wasn't aware that they missed some. Particularly considering there's something like 3-5 unique pilots for every kind of ship. Or close to that anyways.

Firespray becoming Scum only is pure legit. Scum just wasn't a faction when Boba was first released, that's all. Mind you, one of the better balance changes was separating Resistance and Rebels. Because Poe and Wedge together were insane.

I wouldn't bother with a new thread, I think this conversation is about tapped out.


Back to Warhammer, over on Goonhammer they actually went over tournament results for a bunch of factions. The whole thing can be found here.

Of particular note though was the two Ork players they covered. The first Ork Player was running something pretty standard. 3 Big Meks with Shockk Attack Guns, Triple Battalions fueled by gretchin, and twenty Meganobs being teleported via Da Jump. The other player though was running an army of buggies. He had triple Dragsters, and 5 Scrapjets. And the buggies managed to go 5-1.

[Renegade Paladin]

I like how beloved star wars characters "Hobbie" "Janson" and "Tarn Mison" are not, in fact, among the More Obscure group.

Well, Tarn kind of is. I only included him to begin with because the format was 150 point All Aces, the big four weren't filling the points limit, and he was the only other movie-era Rogue Squadron pilot in print.

[Squark]

Warhammer Legends is up

EDIT: Hmm... Doesn't look like prices have changed from the index, apart from the Wolf Lord on Bike who managed to snag the Biker Captain's cost decreases.

[9mm]

I find it funny that the Griffon Heavy Mortar carrier is so old GW didn't even legend it.

[LansXero]

Is a banshee mask an actual piece of modellable wargear that one day existed? Or is this just GW being *******s 'cause they felt like it? I mean, I could maybe see a Reaper Launcher being a tad too much for an Autarch to have (not really) but the Mask doesnt even fit their 'we're not making these models anymore' reasoning.

[Squark]

Is a banshee mask an actual piece of modellable wargear that one day existed? Or is this just GW being *******s 'cause they felt like it? I mean, I could maybe see a Reaper Launcher being a tad too much for an Autarch to have (not really) but the Mask doesnt even fit their 'we're not making these models anymore' reasoning.

In the same way Wolf Priests on Thunderwolves existed; You took the body of one model and combined it with parts from another. Most of the wargear being lost only ever existed as conversions/kitbashes, which GW doesn't want to include in the codexes anymore. And, I mean, I can kind of unerstand not wanting to have to say to a brand new customer asking where they can get an Autarch with a banshee mask/Techmarine on a bike/Twin Autocannon Dreadnaught, "Okay, you need to buy this kit, and that kit, and that kit, and then cut them all up just to make one model"

I'd much prefer if we'd gotten multipose kits for various HQs like the Space Marine commander box, but sadly, that's not the path GW has gone down.

[Rizhail]

Is a banshee mask an actual piece of modellable wargear that one day existed? Or is this just GW being *******s 'cause they felt like it? I mean, I could maybe see a Reaper Launcher being a tad too much for an Autarch to have (not really) but the Mask doesnt even fit their 'we're not making these models anymore' reasoning.

It was actually modeled on one of the old sculpts of the Autarch with hawk wings. Folks would also just convert their own masked autarchs by putting banshee heads on other Eldar torsos (quite a bit more annoying since they were all metal or finecast, though).

Spoiler: The Sculpt in Question

Show

I’m still really annoyed by GWs weird stance of “if the option isn’t in that specific kit, it cannot be taken” (which they blatantly ignore on occasion; hell, I think there’s still a grey knight dread knight variant that literally does not have a model and they just tell you to convert one, so their rules aren’t even consistent). I was honestly pretty annoyed when the change in editions and the inclusion of that policy invalidated several of my dark Eldar HQs from 5th/6th edition (e.g. succubus with power spear, archons with venom blades).

On a related note, I’m curious how tournaments will handle the Legends stuff. On the one hand, I fully expect them to nix any data sheets from Legends since there will not be any balance changes to those things, but I’m curious if we’ll see allowances for wargear options, since the data sheets and wargear options sections are pretty well delineated. Something like “Datasheets from Legends are not allowed. Wargear options form Legends are allowed, however any wargear selected must have rules/points entries in the army’s codex”.

[Squark]

I’m still really annoyed by GWs weird stance of “if the option isn’t in that specific kit, it cannot be taken” (which they blatantly ignore on occasion; hell, I think there’s still a grey knight dread knight variant that literally does not have a model and they just tell you to convert one, so their rules aren’t even consistent).

Bike Captains, certain force weapon/armor combinations for librarians, Captains and Librarians with Jump packs... Yeah, GW is still pretty inconsistent about this.

[Renegade Paladin]

Wait, Tigurius got the Legends treatment? Huh.

[Blackhawk748]

In the same way Wolf Priests on Thunderwolves existed; You took the body of one model and combined it with parts from another. Most of the wargear being lost only ever existed as conversions/kitbashes, which GW doesn't want to include in the codexes anymore. And, I mean, I can kind of unerstand not wanting to have to say to a brand new customer asking where they can get an Autarch with a banshee mask/Techmarine on a bike/Twin Autocannon Dreadnaught, "Okay, you need to buy this kit, and that kit, and that kit, and then cut them all up just to make one model"

I'd much prefer if we'd gotten multipose kits for various HQs like the Space Marine commander box, but sadly, that's not the path GW has gone down.

The particular odd child here is the Grand Master in a Dreadknight. Who is a conversion that GW tells you how to do, so I honestly wonder what the criteria here was.

Wait, Tigurius got the Legends treatment? Huh.

Gotta use Primaris Tiggy apparently.

[Cheesegear]

On a related note, I’m curious how tournaments will handle the Legends stuff. On the one hand

Exactly the way GW says?

Warhammer Legends will not form part of our ongoing balance
review for the wider Warhammer 40,000 game – and we don’t
recommend Legends units for competitive tournaments. This
means that event organisers and attendees alike can guarantee
that everything they’re gaming with is easily available to
everyone and has been subject to the same rigorous balance and
playtesting process.

Warhammer Legends units are not balanced - for better or worse - will never be balanced, and as of now we're forgetting that they're existing, so if there's something really, really good (e.g; Kustom Force Field Mek, Iron Hands' Techmarine on Bike), it's going to be really, really good forever... Or, it's going to suck forever. See ya.

[tyckspoon]

"...has been subject to the same rigorous balance and
playtesting process."

Somebody got paid to write that with a straight face.

[Renegade Paladin]

Somebody got paid to write that with a straight face.

Which is why I'm not too fussed about it. I'm giving serious consideration to running legacy events just to not randomly invalidate people's hobby.

[Don Qui Ho Tep]

Hey all,

Long-time lurker but I've appreciated reading your collected wisdom over the past few months. I'm getting back into 8th after a hiatus during University. My local gaming group is very competitive and I wouldn't mind a bit of assistance. My main army is Chaos Space Marines and they seem to be in a pretty good place at the moment, but I've been thinking of splashing in Chaos Knights. What I'm trying to figure out is the right ratio of screens to heavy hitters. Cultists don't seem to be doing their job and my Forgefiend and Defiler tend to get blown out within the first two turns, leaving me without a lot of firepower. I've been running small squads of Chaos Marines for objective camping but it seems like a bit of a waste of points.

Part of it might just be me playing ITC, too. How does maelstrom compare? I'm planning on trying it out next week with a buddy.

My most recent list that I ran vs Space Wolves, with very poor results:

Spoiler: 2000 Pts ITC

Show

11 CP

Battalion - Red Corsairs
Host Raptorial
Field Commander
Gift of Chaos

Chaos Lord - Chainsword, Combi-Melta, Slaanesh [Maelstrom's Bite]
Master of Possession - Force Stave, Slaanesh
-Infernal Power
-Sacrifice
Sorcerer with Jump Pack - Force Sword, Plasma Pistol
-Prescience
-Warptime
WT Tip of the Claw

10 x CSM w/ 2 Reaper Chain Cannon, Champion with Plasma pistol, Power fist
5 x CSM w/ chainsword, 1 flamer, champion with chainsword and combi-flamer
5 x CSM w/ chainsword, 1 flamer, champion with chainsword and combi-flamer

10 x Warp Talons

Spearhead Detachment - Red Corsairs
Lord Discordant (W) - Baleflamer, Unholy Fortitude, Intoxicating Elixer
Lord Discordant - Baleflamer

Greater Possessed
Greater Possessed

Defiler - Havoc Launcher, Reaper Autocannon
Forgefiend - Ectoplasma cannon, Autocannon
Venomcrawler

Heldrake - Baleflamer

Re: Warhammer Legends, I'm disappointed as I got into the game from the hobby first. My favorite part was converting HQs to make them distinct - no other Chaos Lord on a Bike will look quite like mine. It seems a shame that we're heading towards mono-posed kits that are not only difficult to convert but actually disallow it. Ah well. I've got at least one good buddy I know who'd be fine for casual games.

[Avaris]

One surprising thing about Legends, and I think counter to how it was originally announced, is that there are some models in there that are still available for sale on the GW website, specifically the Legion of the Dammed. I was hoping to see official updated rules for them in a WD, but apparently not. Quite tempted to pick some up though: they’ll never be competitive, but I’ve always liked the models and concept and the idea of deep striking a couple of multi meltas attached to Marines with 3++ saves amuses me.

[Cheesegear]

Part of it might just be me playing ITC, too. How does maelstrom compare? I'm planning on trying it out next week with a buddy.

I wish I could help you with Chaos Marines. But I don't know a lot about them, and I know even less with the 8.2 Codex.

At high levels of play, the ITC mostly focuses on sitting on one or two Objectives for the entire game, and doing pure damage to your opponent. Yes, there are other ways to score points. But, by far the easiest way to score points, is Kill Points, and doing massive damage to your opponents units for easy points.

For the most part, the best ITC lists tend not to move around a lot, because there is no benefit to moving once you control two Objectives, and then just killing your opponent. Just make sure you stay on the two Objectives (the same Objectives every turn, if possible), and you'll win your games. The rest is down to mathhammer, and who scores kill points the fastest. This is a version of the game where 'the most competitive' lists can be pretty easily figured out if you know how an Excel spreadsheet works. You could say, that it's directly made for tournament play.

'Can you make a list, that has bigger numbers than your opponent's list?', and then roll dice. ITC is good because it's what most players - and especially new ones - naturally want to do when they play against your opponent; 'Let's just kill each other,' and then build a list that does exactly that. In my opinion, because of how the win conditions, are, it is the epitome of the answer to "How much randomness of the game can you take out, to make it unFun?" ITC. ITC is how you make it so fixed, that you can make it unFun, mostly 'cause you can often tell who wins games based on army lists and/or who goes first.

Maelstrom, on the other hand, wants you to be holding at least three Objectives at all times - and half of the time, not the ones you currently have. Maelstrom also includes Kill Point Objectives, but not so many that they become the main focus of the game. Maelstrom also includes esoteric cards like 'Complete a Charge', which has nothing to do with Objectives, or Kill Points, but, if you don't have a unit that can declare and succeed a Charge, you don't get the VP.

For this reason, Maelstrom greatly favours 'Lists that can do everything'. Killing your opponent is part of the game, but not all of the game. Which means that math-hammer, matters less, and rather than focus on specific unit strength (i.e; Three Repulsors on a Skyshield), Maelstrom is based around overall army strength, and leans towards generalist units (or, perhaps more specifically, 'Shooty units that can also Melee when called upon to do so'), rather than shooty units in-or-behind a Ruin.

Maelstrom is good, because the Objectives you draw, and on what turn, is basically random (however, it's important to know that before the game begins, you already know every card in the deck, and have built your army list accordingly, right?). Which means that not only do your win conditions change every game, they change every turn. Maelstrom focuses primarily on armies that are adaptable, and focuses on generals willing to take risks to score VPs, often, instead of scoring another, different VP. And perhaps most importantly, movement and board control (i.e; Objectives).

Maelstrom is good because it requires you to think about what you're doing, based on the cards you draw. You don't get to go in to every game with the same game plan - and neither does your opponent, and you know that. Maelstrom is also bad because some entire Factions (e.g; T'au, a rather popular Faction) can't adapt to the cards, because their entire Codex is built around a single schtick - castle up and shoot.
Maelstrom is bad, 'cause people are bad misunderstand how the deck works, and often the Objectives of the game often feel counter-intuitive if you draw them on the wrong turn, which causes nerdrage.

Maelstrom is a 'fixed randomness', very similar to counting cards (in fact, it's exactly like counting cards). Before the game starts, you already know each and every card in your/the deck. With each draw, randomness diminishes, and you plan around cards you have drawn, and even around cards that you haven't drawn yet - but you know they're coming.

TL;DR:
In ITC, T'au are competitive. In Maelstrom, they're not.

[Forum Explorer]

Somebody got paid to write that with a straight face.

The best part about writing things is you can be crackling like a maniac and nobody can see you do it.


To simply what Cheesegear was saying about Maelstrom, it's a game where you have to do many random things. Most of those are hold objectives, but there is still plenty of others. The best way to do well in Maelstrom is to be able to do as many of those things as possible, that way statistically speaking, you'll be able to score more points. This typically means being very mobile.

That being said, sometimes you get screwed by the cards no matter how well your army is designed. And sometimes you get objectives that your army simply can't do.

Thankfully, more recent Maelstrom missions do allow you to edit your deck of cards to an extent, allowing you to remove the objectives that your army just can't do at all.