Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXIX: Miracle on 39th Thread

[Cheesegear]

Thankfully, more recent Maelstrom missions do allow you to edit your deck of cards to an extent, allowing you to remove the objectives that your army just can't do at all.

By 'edit your deck', you mean "Remove SebObX 1-6, Remove DefOb 1-6, and then also six more.", and then you just try and table your opponent, exactly like you would do in the ITC.

[Forum Explorer]

By 'edit your deck', you mean "Remove SebObX 1-6, Remove DefOb 1-6, and then also six more.", and then you just try and table your opponent, exactly like you would do in the ITC.

Don't you only get to remove 6 objectives?

[Cheesegear]

Don't you only get to remove 6 objectives?

Oh. Yeah. Chapter Approved '18 is the good version.
There's another version in White Dwarf, which lets you remove 18 cards (i.e; All the Objectives), which will fairly reasonably become the new format in CA'19. I hope it doesn't. But given the popularity of the ITC, and the 'choose how you win' format, I will not be surprised if/when it is.

[Forum Explorer]

Oh. Yeah. Chapter Approved '18 is the good version.
There's another version in White Dwarf, which lets you remove 18 cards (i.e; All the Objectives), which will fairly reasonably become the new format in CA'19. I hope it doesn't. But given the popularity of the ITC, and the 'choose how you win' format, I will not be surprised if/when it is.

I never got a chance to try that version. Doesn't that only leave you with 12 objectives? And from what I remember, you draw a hand of 5, and put 3 as active. That seems to make it pretty likely that you'll end up completing all 12 objectives pretty much every game.

I still feel like the ITC is riding its popularity from 7th, where the game was legitimately broken, and the ITC actually took important steps to balance things out, while providing better missions then the ones in the rulebook. These days the ITC doesn't actually do any of that. I mean, I'll concede that the missions are better than the ones in the rulebook but I feel like most of the chapter approved missions outclass the ITC ones.

[Cheesegear]

I never got a chance to try that version. Doesn't that only leave you with 12 objectives? And from what I remember, you draw a hand of 5, and put 3 as active. That seems to make it pretty likely that you'll end up completing all 12 objectives pretty much every game.

...Yeah, that's why it sucks. I don't know why people like it.

These days the ITC doesn't actually do any of that.

Well, allegedly, their tournament data is what GW uses to balance units. Which, if true, is asinine, because the ITC doesn't play by GW's rules (e.g; Scions are good already, whose ****ing idea is 7 Points!? Oh wait. You don't need Scions in an ITC list, so no-one who plays Guard, has Scions, better make 'em good...WTF!?)
...Then again, Ogryns - not Bullgyns - are going up 6 Points, too. So I don't even know what GW is doing.

I mean, I'll concede that the missions are better than the ones in the rulebook but I feel like most of the chapter approved missions outclass the ITC ones.

Very much so.

Another fun cycle:

Ynnari Dark Reapers too stronk, plz nerf.
*Nerfs Dark Reapers*
*Nerfs Ynnari*
Dark Reapers suck now. Nobody buy.
*Buffs Dark Reapers*
...Since Guilliman sucks, can Razorbacks and Stormravens become unNerfed, too?
"...No. They're old!Marines and we don't want you using them anymore."

[Forum Explorer]

...Yeah, that's why it sucks. I don't know why people like it.



Well, allegedly, their tournament data is what GW uses to balance units. Which, if true, is asinine, because the ITC doesn't play by GW's rules (e.g; Scions are good already, whose ****ing idea is 7 Points!? Oh wait. You don't need Scions in an ITC list, so no-one who plays Guard, has Scions, better make 'em good...WTF!?)
...Then again, Ogryns - not Bullgyns - are going up 6 Points, too. So I don't even know what GW is doing.



Very much so.

Another fun cycle:

Ynnari Dark Reapers too stronk, plz nerf.
*Nerfs Dark Reapers*
*Nerfs Ynnari*
Dark Reapers suck now. Nobody buy.
*Buffs Dark Reapers*
...Since Guilliman sucks, can Razorbacks and Stormravens become unNerfed, too?
"...No. They're old!Marines and we don't want you using them anymore."

I like the idea of drawing 5 objectives and having 3 active though. I think that would be fun with a total of 24 objectives. (There's usually close to 6 objectives that I never want. Namely anything that deals with morale, Domination, and defending the objectives my opponent has his entire army on top of. Securing can be done. But defending something in your opponent's deployment zone is so insanely hard to do.)

They certainly take tournament results into consideration, but I think they also go by feedback from the community (IE people writing in and complaining) which leads to the weird nerfs/buffs like that.

[Cheesegear]

Making a Battle Company

NB. This is based on the Chapter Organisation found in Imperial Fists, not in the core Codex.

Spoiler: Rationale

Show

x6 Battleline
Intercessors: Bolt Rifles and Stalkers. Both are very good for what they do. The majority of the 8th Ed. Battle Company should be represented by these dudes.

Tacticals: Grav-Cannon Heavy Bolter and Combi-Plasma? Still very expensive for 1-wound models, whose cheapness is cancelled out by the fact that you have to pick up Heavy Bolters to make them worth anything? Skip.

Infiltrators: I play in Maelstrom. One unit is basically required. I'd go for two units of 5 for greater board control. But since I already know the HQ I'm going to pick, that's not important.

The biggest problem is lack of Heavy weapons. Yeah, sure. Fists' Stalker Bolt Rifles are Heavy and Bolt weapons, and that's...Something. If I was Iron Hands, it'd be all Stalkers, all the time. But, I'm not, so it's not.

x2 Close Support
Reivers: ...No.

Incursors: Not being Battleline, really hurts this unit when it comes to making a Battle Company. It's just not going to fit into twin Battalions or a Brigade. So...Next. I love Incursors for a Turn 1 stall tactic, but...Yeah. They're just not gonna fit.

Inceptors: I want to include them so bad. Unfortunately, they just don't bring what I'm not already bringing. I wish I had Scouts in my Troops slot.

Assault Squad: ...No.

Centurion Assault Squads: ...God damn these guys are so good. Strong really strong horde-clearing power, combined with dedicated Vehicle smashing, all on a tough, durable unit, that only costs ~50 Points a model. Unfortunately, I just can't justify them, 'cause they're just so slow, and I don't think I can keep them alive for that long.

Biker Squads: Cheap source of Meltaguns? Yes. Also carries Twin Boltguns each? ...Yes. Very solid unit. I'm also not White Scars, I'm Imperial Fists. So I treat them like a T5 unit that carries Storm Bolters...Not like a Melee unit that can't climb stairs.

Attack Bikes: ...No.

Land Speeders: ...It's times like these I wish I played Iron Hands or Ultramarines. Unfortunately...I don't. I have to play...*vomit* a fair Chapter of Space Marines.

x2 Fire Support
Hellblasters: I'd really like to carry a unit of Heavies. Unfortunately, that's a lot of points...So...Pass. For now. I think.

Eliminators: I don't play in an ITC meta where seeing through walls is mandatory. I'm also carting a bunch of Stalker Rifles, and we already know the HQ I'm running. I really need Heavy weapons at this point.

Aggressors: ...In an army that's running six Troops as it is, and all Boltguns, at that, Aggressors give me what I don't need.

Suppressors: ...What am I? Ultramarines or Iron Hands?

Devastators: There it is. Heavy Bolter, Lascannons (x2), Missile Launcher, Fat Baby. 150 Points. Will really like to upgrade to x4 Lascannons. We'll see how the points shake out.

Centurion Devastators: I'd love to. But no. Not this time.

Characters
Captain: ...Tor Garadon, is out. Obviously looking at the standard Battle Company, it's extremely shooty. So, looks like we're taking the Phobos Captain for a cool 99 Points.
Lieutenant: Primaris, for preference. But, we're Imperial Fists, so a small!Lieutenant with a Storm Bolter is good enough for me.
Company Ancient: Primaris, for preference.
Company Champion: ...Eew. Really? Do I have to?
Company Veterans: ...*Vomit*

Dreadnoughts
Dreadnoughts and Venerable Dreadnoughts carry Heavy weapons that I desperately need. Unfortunately, Venerable Dreads cost a few extra points that I really don't want to spend. A Contemptor Dreadnought is one of the best units Imperial Fists can field...But, once again, I don't think I have the points, and a single Assault Cannon just isn't that great. Redemptors I'm not running, 'cause once again, I'm not Iron Hands. Vicky Warsuits I'd strongly like to run, and once again, we'll see what we're doing.

Let's apply my knowledge...

Spoiler: Core List

Show

Imperial Fists, Battalion
Captain in Phobos Armour; Master-Crafted Instigator Bolt Carbine, Camo Cloak - 99 Points
Lieutenant; Storm Bolter & Chainsword - 62 Points

Intercessors (x5); Stalker Bolt Rifles, Stalker Bolt Rifle & Chainsword - 85 Points
Intercessors (x5); Stalker Bolt Rifles, Stalker Bolt Rifle & Chainsword - 85 Points
Intercessors (x5); Bolt Rifles, Bolt Rifle & Chainsword - 85 Points

Bikes (x3); Meltagun (x2), Combi-Melta, Twin Boltguns (x3) - 112 Points
Bikes (x3); Meltagun (x2), Combi-Melta, Twin Boltguns (x3) - 112 Points

Imperial Fists, Battalion
HQ 1; ???
HQ 2; ???

Intercessors (x5); Bolt Rifles, Bolt Rifle & Chainsword - 85 Points
Intercessors (x5); Bolt Rifles, Bolt Rifle & Chainsword - 85 Points
Infiltrators (x5) - 110 Points

Devastators (x5); Heavy Bolter, Lascannons (x2), Missile Launcher, Armorium Cherub - 150 Points
Devastators (x5); Heavy Bolter, Lascannons (x2), Missile Launcher, Armorium Cherub - 150 Points

Total: 1220 Points

...Huh? Is that all. Well, I'm missing all those extra Veteran models, and I still need two extra HQs. Librarian and Chaplain, obviously.

Spoiler

Show

Librarian; Force Stave, Tectonic Purge - 88 Points
Chaplain; Recitation of Focus - 72 Points

Primaris Ancient - 69 Points
Company Champion; Master-Crafted Power Sword, Combat Shield - 51 Points
Company Veterans (x5); Storm Bolters & Chainswords - 80 Points

Total: 1580 Points

...Take out those dumb Veterans and it's exactly 1500 Points...That's...Something. Now to add Dreadnoughts. Now that I'm including Vehicles in my list, might as well add a Techmarine, right?

Spoiler: +Dreadnoughts

Show

Techmarine; Boltgun & Chainsword - 45 Points

Dreadnought; Missile Launcher, Twin Lascannon - 130 Points
Dreadnought; Missile Launcher, Twin Lascannon - 130 Points

Total: 1885 Points

Well, make 'em both Venerable for +40 Points. Let's switch the Techmarine, for a full-on Thunderfire Cannon for...uhh...'Support Elements', for +47 Points. Still 28 Points to go. Huh. Remember, the Chaplain's Litany, if it goes off, gives +1 to hit, so what's wrong with upping one of the Devastators to Hellblasters (+25) that can't explode?

Spoiler: Final List

Show

Imperial Fists, Battalion
Captain in Phobos Armour; Master-Crafted Instigator Bolt Carbine, Camo Cloak - 99 Points
Lieutenant; Storm Bolter & Chainsword - 62 Points

Intercessors (x5); Stalker Bolt Rifles, Stalker Bolt Rifle & Chainsword - 85 Points
Intercessors (x5); Stalker Bolt Rifles, Stalker Bolt Rifle & Chainsword - 85 Points
Intercessors (x5); Bolt Rifles, Bolt Rifle & Chainsword - 85 Points

Primaris Ancient - 69 Points
Company Champion; Master-Crafted Power Sword, Combat Shield - 51 Points
Company Veterans (x5); Storm Bolters & Chainswords - 80 Points

Bikes (x3); Meltagun (x2), Combi-Melta, Twin Boltguns (x3) - 112 Points
Bikes (x3); Meltagun (x2), Combi-Melta, Twin Boltguns (x3) - 112 Points

Imperial Fists, Battalion
Librarian; Force Stave, Tectonic Purge - 88 Points
Chaplain; Recitation of Focus - 72 Points

Intercessors (x5); Bolt Rifles, Bolt Rifle & Chainsword - 85 Points
Intercessors (x5); Bolt Rifles, Bolt Rifle & Chainsword - 85 Points
Infiltrators (x5) - 110 Points

Venerable Dreadnought; Missile Launcher, Twin Lascannon - 150 Points
Venerable Dreadnought; Missile Launcher, Twin Lascannon - 150 Points

Devastators (x5); Heavy Bolter, Lascannons (x2), Missile Launcher, Armorium Cherub - 150 Points
Hellblasters (x5); Heavy Plasma Incinerators - 175 Points
Thunderfire Cannon; Flamer, Plasma Cutter - 92 Points

Total: 1997 Points | 13 CPs

...Huh. That actually looks better than I originally thought it would. Maybe switch the Dreads to Contemptors? Playtest time, I guess. I think I actually have to switch them to Vicky Warsuits for some early board control?

[LansXero]

...Yeah, that's why it sucks. I don't know why people like it.

Having actually ran tournaments with it, people love being able to adapt their army to their objectives and knowing that most of what they'll draw they can accomplish. I look forward to it becoming more widely accepted.

Well, allegedly, their tournament data is what GW uses to balance units. Which, if true, is asinine, because the ITC doesn't play by GW's rules (e.g; Scions are good already, whose ****ing idea is 7 Points!? Oh wait. You don't need Scions in an ITC list, so no-one who plays Guard, has Scions, better make 'em good...WTF!?)
...Then again, Ogryns - not Bullgyns - are going up 6 Points, too. So I don't even know what GW is doing.

Very much so.

Another fun cycle:

Ynnari Dark Reapers too stronk, plz nerf.
*Nerfs Dark Reapers*
*Nerfs Ynnari*
Dark Reapers suck now. Nobody buy.
*Buffs Dark Reapers*
...Since Guilliman sucks, can Razorbacks and Stormravens become unNerfed, too?
"...No. They're old!Marines and we don't want you using them anymore."

Scions are to make the Guardsman increase more palatable. Dark Reapers have been overcosted for a while, but only slightly so and are also to shore up the Crimson Hunter increase.

[Cheesegear]

Having actually ran tournaments with it, people love being able to adapt their army to their objectives

You mean adapt their Objectives to their army.
Like I said, remove SecOb1-6, DefOb1-6, and six more (the six you would, normally). Then just table.

Scions are to make the Guardsman increase more palatable.

To whom?
The non-Guard players who are happy Infantry went to 5 Points, or the non-Guard players who are angry that Scions dropped to 7?

Or was it to appease Guard players who are already A-Tier, to keep being A-Tier...As long they buy new models.
...Haha, just kidding, of course it is.

Dark Reapers have been overcosted for a while

Since Ynnari was nerfed. Whilst Ynnari was...As it was, Dark Reapers were accurately costed. Unfortunately, this happened to hurt players who didn't run Ynnari, in the same way that Razorbacks and Stormravens without Guilliman, are still nerfed, 'cause **** you, that's why. Now, with Guilliman nerfed, the nerf to Stormravens and Razorbacks makes no sense, and yet, remained in the Codex v2 because reasons?

[LansXero]

You mean adapt their Objectives to their army.
Like I said, remove SecOb1-6, DefOb1-6, and six more (the six you would, normally). Then just table.

Yeah, 'cause its so trivial to table people. Beating them so bad they cant score ****, sure, but then if they pull a 3 on 1d3 objectives you lose despite having massacred the other and that just sucks. We've seen Daemons players get mileage out of score / capture based decks, due to mobility and plaguebearers / nurglings lasting more than they should; jetbikes can also take objectives from basically anywhere and moving custodes out of a point they want is extremely hard.

Its ok if you haven't tried it, its less ITC and closer to normal maelstrom, and the mini-game of knowing what to put down, what to reshuffle back into the deck, etc. is very engaging, for us at least. Regular maelstrom, since what you'd draw was a crapshoot anyways, did become 'Ill just table the **** out of you instead', because people here hate randumb stuff and taking 'just in case' stuff they wouldnt normally take. I keep wondering just how much our TCG background warps how we play 40k.

Or was it to appease Guard players who are already A-Tier, to keep being A-Tier...As long they buy new models.
...Haha, just kidding, of course it is.

See, you big casual fellow, being A-Tier means you aint 'pre-nerf Ynnari' S-Tier, so there is plenty of room to complain. While some people are happy and excited about Sisters being 'High B-Tier', for some people anything that isnt an S-Tier contender doesnt exist, and they have a right to their fun as much as anyone else. Wish GW was better at balance of course.

Since Ynnari was nerfed. Whilst Ynnari was...As it was, Dark Reapers were accurately costed. Unfortunately, this happened to hurt players who didn't run Ynnari, in the same way that Razorbacks and Stormravens without Guilliman, are still nerfed, 'cause **** you, that's why. Now, with Guilliman nerfed, the nerf to Stormravens and Razorbacks makes no sense, and yet, remained in the Codex v2 because reasons?

They did, briefly, when Bolter Discipline included them, and then it didnt anymore and then the faction became S-Tier so forget about any buffs coming its way.

[Cheesegear]

Its ok if you haven't tried it, its less ITC and closer to normal maelstrom...

No. I did try it, multiple times, and it felt exactly like ITC. I continuously watch my opponents pull out Objective-based...uhh...Objectives. Then on Turn 1, throw down 3 Kill Point objectives, just like they would in ITC, then pick up 2d3+1 VPs on Turn 1, and they haven't left their DZ. This is a common occurance. Exactly the same as ITC, 'Choose how you win'. It's not that you can't win by playing more Objective-based Objectives...It's just...Why would you bother, when you can run 3 Repulsors on a Skyshield, with Thunderfire Cannon support, and try and kill 3+ enemy units, in the Shooting phase, for 2d3? Kill Points are Just Easier, that's why the ITC revolves around the Secondaries that it does, and WD!Maelstrom isn't any different.

The only Objective Objectives worth keeping in the deck, are non-specified ones, like Supremecy, where any three will do. But, importantly, Supremecy is for D3, too, and D3 Objectives are always worth keeping, especially if they're non-specific (e.g; Destroy any 3 enemy units you want for D3, or, destroy a single Vehicle, for 1).

It's not that you can't win games playing with Necrons; It's why would you even try, when you could play almost anything else, instead?

As Forum Explorer pointed out, the 5 cards you draw on Turn 1, represent a (almost) whole third of your deck, chances are good you can get two - even three - 'good Objectives' in your opening hand. Because, y'know...You've already pulled everything you definitely don't want out the deck. So, using your brain, you know that the only cards left in your deck are all good ones, right? It's not like you need a specific amount of mana to hit curve or your hand is garbage.

Draw 5 cards every turn, where every card is a 0-cost !Lightning Bolt, but you can only play three !Lightning Bolts per turn. "I win in two and half turns, unless you counter."
That's what WD!Maelstrom has been like, for me.
Yeah. Handshake on Turn 3? Sounds about right. That analogy actually works.

and the mini-game of knowing what to put down, what to reshuffle back into the deck, etc. is very engaging, for us at least.

Very engaging? Surely that's a generous overstatement.

[LansXero]

No. I did try it, multiple times, and it felt exactly like ITC. I continuously watch my opponents pull out Objective-based...uhh...Objectives. Then on Turn 1, throw down 3 Kill Point objectives, just like they would in ITC, then pick up 2d3+1 VPs on Turn 1, and they haven't left their DZ. This is a common occurance. Exactly the same as ITC, 'Choose how you win'. It's not that you can't win by playing more Objective-based Objectives...It's just...Why would you bother, when you can run 3 Repulsors on a Skyshield, with Thunderfire Cannon support, and try and kill 3+ enemy units, in the Shooting phase, for 2d3? Kill Points are Just Easier, that's why the ITC revolves around the Secondaries that it does, and WD!Maelstrom isn't any different.

The only Objective Objectives worth keeping in the deck, are non-specified ones, like Supremecy, where any three will do. But, importantly, Supremecy is for D3, too, and D3 Objectives are always worth keeping, especially if they're non-specific (e.g; Destroy any 3 enemy units you want for D3, or, destroy a single Vehicle, for 1).

It's not that you can't win games playing with Necrons; It's why would you even try, when you could play almost anything else, instead?

As Forum Explorer pointed out, the 5 cards you draw on Turn 1, represent a (almost) whole third of your deck, chances are good you can get two - even three - 'good Objectives' in your opening hand. Because, y'know...You've already pulled everything you definitely don't want out the deck. So, using your brain, you know that the only cards left in your deck are all good ones, right? It's not like you need a specific amount of mana to hit curve or your hand is garbage.

Draw 5 cards every turn, where every card is a 0-cost !Lightning Bolt, but you can only play three !Lightning Bolts per turn. "I win in two and half turns, unless you counter."
That's what WD!Maelstrom has been like, for me.
Yeah. Handshake on Turn 3? Sounds about right. That analogy actually works.

Very engaging? Surely that's a generous overstatement.

Well, either your terrain is trash, your TO isnt doing his job of placing objectives in non-retarded areas or I dont know what to tell you. I can count on one hand the times I've given out first blood this year, and it wouldnt even take all the hand. "Kill points are easy" only works if one of the other side is deploying dumbly into firing lines. If it costs your opponent having to become exposed then thats also a price to be paid; I think I've had an easier time when I've gone second mostly because overextending is real and trying super hard to fish for kill points means you eat the counter-punch like a sucker.

Then its probably because Craftworlds is amazing and Phantasm is a great stratagem :D.

Granted, most of our tournaments are Doubles, so maybe a lot of what Im experiencing comes from there.

[Forum Explorer]

Well, either your terrain is trash, your TO isnt doing his job of placing objectives in non-retarded areas or I dont know what to tell you. I can count on one hand the times I've given out first blood this year, and it wouldnt even take all the hand. "Kill points are easy" only works if one of the other side is deploying dumbly into firing lines. If it costs your opponent having to become exposed then thats also a price to be paid; I think I've had an easier time when I've gone second mostly because overextending is real and trying super hard to fish for kill points means you eat the counter-punch like a sucker.

Then its probably because Craftworlds is amazing and Phantasm is a great stratagem :D.

Granted, most of our tournaments are Doubles, so maybe a lot of what Im experiencing comes from there.

I was going to say, you play Eldar flyers where you can get a -3 on pretty much whatever you want. Most armies, frig, most other Eldar armies aren't nearly as durable.

[Don Qui Ho Tep]

Thanks for the wisdom, all. I'm looking forward to trying Maelstrom next Wednesday against a Tau friend. I'll let folks know how it shakes out.

This is what I'm planning on bringing, emphasis on mobility:

Spoiler: 1000 Pts Black Legion

Show

Battalion - Black Legion
Abaddon - 240 (W)
Daemon Prince with Wings; Slaanesh, Delightful Agonies, Intoxicating Elixir, Double-Talons, Warp Bolter - 183

20 x Cultists; Autogun, 2x Heavy Stubber - 104
10 x Cultists; Close Combat, Flamer - 56
10 x Cultists; Close combat, Flamer - 56

8 x Noise Marines; Blastmaster, Sonic Blaster x 6, Combi-plasma, Doom Siren - 183

3 x Bikers; Chainswords, Flamer, Flamer, Combi-Flamer - 178

3 x Bikers; Chainswords, Flamer, Flamer, Combi-Flamer - 178

1000 Pts, 10 CP

I've always loved bikes. Couldn't tell you why.

[LansXero]

I was going to say, you play Eldar flyers where you can get a -3 on pretty much whatever you want. Most armies, frig, most other Eldar armies aren't nearly as durable.

'Eldar Flyers' would be the 9-planes netlist. I play 'just 3' with a bunch of infantry :v. But for example Knights, Custodes, IG, etc. arent that easy to shoot to nothing Turn 1. Sure, there'll be a crater where guardsmen used to be, but there's so many of them it hardly counts.

This is what I'm planning on bringing, emphasis on mobility:

That seems solid enough at the points level, Noise marines can shoot twice right? That seems really nasty. Not so sure about the bikers, its one of those units I've always seen underperform

[JNAProductions]

'Eldar Flyers' would be the 9-planes netlist. I play 'just 3' with a bunch of infantry :v. But for example Knights, Custodes, IG, etc. arent that easy to shoot to nothing Turn 1. Sure, there'll be a crater where guardsmen used to be, but there's so many of them it hardly counts.

That seems solid enough at the points level, Noise marines can shoot twice right? That seems really nasty. Not so sure about the bikers, its one of those units I've always seen underperform

Except when your goal is "Kill 3+ Enemy Units" those Guardsmen count.

[Don Qui Ho Tep]

That seems solid enough at the points level, Noise marines can shoot twice right? That seems really nasty. Not so sure about the bikers, its one of those units I've always seen underperform

Thanks! I was very happy to find out that the sonic weapons sprue fits the new chaos space marine bodies. I have had mixed results with bikes. Obviously they're lovely mobile. With Delightful Agonies they have a bit more staying power or hug terrain. When loaded with meltas/combi-meltas or plasma/combi-plasma they've been great alpha strike to remove heavy infantry or make a dent in tanks - but that one long-deployment map is really killer. They don't always last from one turn to another.

This is the first time I've run as flamers. I really like the idea of them as potential chaff clearing. With bolter discipline doubling their shots or the Black Legion trait letting them advance and shoot their combi-bolters there's a lot of potential for damage. But again, it's an issue of keeping them around past turn two or three. We'll see how they do!

I used to run them with an Icon of Nurgle back when it gave them toughness 6. But they only had one wound back then, so...

[Drasius]

Yeah, 'cause its so trivial to table people.

Yes? That's one of the pretty much universal complaints about 8th is how deadly it is.

Beating them so bad they cant score ****, sure, but then if they pull a 3 on 1d3 objectives you lose despite having massacred the other and that just sucks. We've seen Daemons players get mileage out of score / capture based decks, due to mobility and plaguebearers / nurglings lasting more than they should; jetbikes can also take objectives from basically anywhere and moving custodes out of a point they want is extremely hard.

Its ok if you haven't tried it, its less ITC and closer to normal maelstrom, and the mini-game of knowing what to put down, what to reshuffle back into the deck, etc. is very engaging, for us at least. Regular maelstrom, since what you'd draw was a crapshoot anyways, did become 'Ill just table the **** out of you instead', because people here hate randumb stuff and taking 'just in case' stuff they wouldnt normally take. I keep wondering just how much our TCG background warps how we play 40k.

Sorry mate, gotta agree with cheese here. You take out anything that could be impossible, like getting objectives that will be on the other side of the board with 6 troops units squatting on it, which means removing all the objective cards and 6 more that are inconvenient. Doing it any other way is gimping yourself.

big casual fellow

Early contender for next thread title?

, being A-Tier means you aint 'pre-nerf Ynnari' S-Tier, so there is plenty of room to complain. While some people are happy and excited about Sisters being 'High B-Tier', for some people anything that isnt an S-Tier contender doesnt exist, and they have a right to their fun as much as anyone else. Wish GW was better at balance of course.

And we have a right to tell them to stfu and stop being big crybabies who can't win unless their army has numerous huge advantages over their opponents. When your fun comes at the expense of others fun, it's not good for your meta or the longevity of your group.

They did, briefly, when Bolter Discipline included them, and then it didnt anymore and then the faction became S-Tier so forget about any buffs coming its way.

Yes, but they're marines, so you can never quite tell. They've probably sold enough gullible-mans that they don't feel the need to buff him yet.

Well, either your terrain is trash, your TO isnt doing his job of placing objectives in non-retarded areas or I dont know what to tell you. I can count on one hand the times I've given out first blood this year, and it wouldnt even take all the hand. "Kill points are easy" only works if one of the other side is deploying dumbly into firing lines. If it costs your opponent having to become exposed then thats also a price to be paid; I think I've had an easier time when I've gone second mostly because overextending is real and trying super hard to fish for kill points means you eat the counter-punch like a sucker.

Then its probably because Craftworlds is amazing and Phantasm is a great stratagem :D.

Granted, most of our tournaments are Doubles, so maybe a lot of what Im experiencing comes from there.

"Well I don't have any problems because I play an army full of -ve to hit modifiers against newbies, so its not a real problem." That's what I read from your post.

[Forum Explorer]

'Eldar Flyers' would be the 9-planes netlist. I play 'just 3' with a bunch of infantry :v. But for example Knights, Custodes, IG, etc. arent that easy to shoot to nothing Turn 1. Sure, there'll be a crater where guardsmen used to be, but there's so many of them it hardly counts.



That seems solid enough at the points level, Noise marines can shoot twice right? That seems really nasty. Not so sure about the bikers, its one of those units I've always seen underperform

From what I remember, your last list had everything with a -2 to hit, save for a single squad of Guardians who would end up with a 3++. Oh, and had a -1 to hit. Or else was a character.

Regardless, we aren't talking about shooting to nothing. We're talking about killing 1 to 3 things. Kill 30 Guardsmen? Boom, D3 points. Hold any three objectives? Boom, D3 points. Cast 3 Psyker powers, Boom, D3 points. All of those things are trivial for most Eldar armies to achieve. Just those three objectives is already 25% of your total objectives in that mode.

[Cheesegear]

I can count on one hand the times I've given out first blood this year, and it wouldnt even take all the hand.

...Counter to that, that means you've been getting First Blood almost every game, then. Correct?
Good times.

[Hootman]

From what I remember, your last list had everything with a -2 to hit, save for a single squad of Guardians who would end up with a 3++. Oh, and had a -1 to hit. Or else was a character.

I imagine there aren't much for Orks in that meta, then. Minuses to hit don't do jack against them in terms of points "wasted" on otherwise good ballistic skills, since they barely use it anyways, and get exploding 6s ignoring modifiers. And can pay CP for exploding 5s, ignoring mods. And, y'know, get into melee.

Just don't go all in on the ITC standard Ork Shokk-Grot list, and you'd be good. Or bring lotsa Traktor Kannons, which don't even roll to hit.

[Cheesegear]

I imagine there aren't much for Orks in that meta...

Orks are real good... As long as you don't care about Bikers or Biker Nobs, Trukks, Battlewagons, Dredds or Killa Kans. Which is like...Everything a non-8th Ed. Ork player would have.

[Avaris]

By 'edit your deck', you mean "Remove SebObX 1-6, Remove DefOb 1-6, and then also six more.", and then you just try and table your opponent, exactly like you would do in the ITC.

One thing I’ve tried in the past is saying ‘you must have X objective linked cards’. Not sure how many would be the right number though.

[Drasius]

One thing I’ve tried in the past is saying ‘you must have X objective linked cards’. Not sure how many would be the right number though.

Cool, I take the minimum required amount, guess at what pattern they're placed on the table in, have a 75% chance at either choosing the side with all my objectives on it or getting assigned that side by my opponent and deploy to sit on them.

[Avaris]

Cool, I take the minimum required amount, guess at what pattern they're placed on the table in, have a 75% chance at either choosing the side with all my objectives on it or getting assigned that side by my opponent and deploy to sit on them.

Yeah, this is why I said ‘not sure what the right number is’. Obviously, the answer is ‘it depends on the play experience you want’, but as a gut feeling saying ‘at least half your cards must be objectives and ‘each objective must appear at least once’ would help prevent castling. I’m sure there are other similar refinements that could be made.

[Cheesegear]

Yeah, this is why I said ‘not sure what the right number is’. Obviously, the answer is ‘it depends on the play experience you want’

I've said previously that 7th Ed. was the best edition I'd ever played - going as far back as 2nd. I now consider 8th Ed. to be the best edition I've ever played. A huge chunk of the reason why, was or is the introduction of the Maelstrom format, and progressive scoring. That is, every tun matters, every phase matters.

A big, big, big problem with older editions - IMO - was the format of the Missions, which we still see in the original 8th Ed. rulebook. The only turn that matters, is the last turn. Stay in your DZ for four turns (why would you ever leave terrain/Cover?) and then on Turn 5+, try and move as fast as you can to the Objectives, and hope the game ends on Turn 5. Which is pretty much exactly how the ITC currently plays, based on the most common (and therefore, easiest to score) Secondaries that get chosen.

Maelstrom pulls down that style's pants, and then pile drives it into the ground. You need to leave - or have the ability to leave - your DZ, on Turn 1, with 'about half' of your army. 6" Move, 12" Move, doesn't matter. Get out of your DZ and start planning on how you're going to score Objectives, because staying in your DZ with your whole army, for four turns, will lose you the game. Every time.
I wouldn't necessarily call it more dynamic play. But I will back it to the hilt, as the most engaging way to play, since you don't go to sleep whilst your opponent just batters your army 'cause they don't have to do anything else, and you don't get to do the same, either.

[Forum Explorer]

Seriously, I think 6-10 is the right number of objectives to eject from the game. That gets rid of Domination, Psychological Warfare, Priority Orders Received, and still leaves you with enough room to get rid of the literally impossible ones like Harness the Warp if you are playing something like Necrons, or the objectives in your opponent's Deployment zone. While still leaving you with plenty of other hold/defend objectives.

[Drasius]

Yeah, this is why I said ‘not sure what the right number is’. Obviously, the answer is ‘it depends on the play experience you want’, but as a gut feeling saying ‘at least half your cards must be objectives and ‘each objective must appear at least once’ would help prevent castling. I’m sure there are other similar refinements that could be made.

Correct answer is 0, but remove literally impossible cards (cast a power as Tau, destroy a vehicle vs 'Nids etc).

[Forum Explorer]

Correct answer is 0, but remove literally impossible cards (cast a power as Tau, destroy a vehicle vs 'Nids etc).

I disagree as some objectives are pure BS. Anything that deals with morale are the worst offenders, but there are others.

[Drasius]

Yeah, but you've gotta have those in there so the 3 guys playing ld bomb lists don't feel even worse than they already do.