Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXIX: Miracle on 39th Thread

[Blackhawk748]

Orks are real good... As long as you don't care about Bikers or Biker Nobs, Trukks, Battlewagons, Dredds or Killa Kans. Which is like...Everything a non-8th Ed. Ork player would have.

The death of the Kan wall hurt. Pretty much every Ork player pre 7th had one of those.

[Hootman]

The death of the Kan wall hurt. Pretty much every Ork player pre 7th had one of those.

Not me!

Orks are real good... As long as you don't care about Bikers or Biker Nobs, Trukks, Battlewagons, Dredds or Killa Kans. Which is like...Everything a non-8th Ed. Ork player would have.

...But that's because I am a Bikerz guy.

[Forum Explorer]

Yeah, but you've gotta have those in there so the 3 guys playing ld bomb lists don't feel even worse than they already do.

Why? So they can feel even worse when they still fail to get Psychological Warfare because you just pop 2CP to auto-pass or are just flat out immune to morale in the first place?

[Drasius]

Why? So they can feel even worse when they still fail to get Psychological Warfare because you just pop 2CP to auto-pass or are just flat out immune to morale in the first place?

"Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment."

[LansXero]

...Counter to that, that means you've been getting First Blood almost every game, then. Correct?
Good times.

When I wanted to, sure. But if I didnt with 3 flyers one of which auto-hits and might as well auto-wound, I'd be a terrible player. But then, sometimes the cost is to suicide said planes fishing for a firing angle and just not worth it.

I imagine there aren't much for Orks in that meta, then. Minuses to hit don't do jack against them in terms of points "wasted" on otherwise good ballistic skills, since they barely use it anyways, and get exploding 6s ignoring modifiers. And can pay CP for exploding 5s, ignoring mods. And, y'know, get into melee.

Just don't go all in on the ITC standard Ork Shokk-Grot list, and you'd be good. Or bring lotsa Traktor Kannons, which don't even roll to hit.

Its all about positioning, playing chicken, and grindingly peel the orkish onion to get at the actual threats. Its tricky, but there is a tipping point at which they collapse. Or you're dead.

[Blackhawk748]

Its all about positioning, playing chicken, and grindingly peel the orkish onion to get at the actual threats. Its tricky, but there is a tipping point at which they collapse. Or you're dead.

If the Orks aren't pretending its WWI and they're at the Argonne, they're doing it wrong. You should be drowned in bodies and shelled into oblivion with their KMKs and Shokk Attack Guns, especially if there isn't an ITC Chess Clock.

Yes, you're gonna slaughter Orks, but there's easily 150 Boys alone on the board and the question is can you kill them fast enough? And even if you do wipe them, how many VP did they score in that time? Orks love Maelstrom as it forces people to get their rear-ends out of their DZ and into the mid-field, right were Orks like them.

ITC pretty much removes them with Time Clocks.

[Hootman]

Has anyone really tried playing with the Apocalypse trays (or a 3rd party equivalent) with hordes of any kind? It seems like they would be useful enough for shooting or Da Jumping, but bad for assaulting.

[Cheesegear]

Has anyone really tried playing with the Apocalypse trays (or a 3rd party equivalent) with hordes of any kind?

The official Apocalypse trays are borderline useless, since they're made for that game, specifically, where unit coherency is 1/2". That's real bad in a game where unit coherency is 2" (i.e; in 40K).
Even if you can get past that, trays work, right up until your board has terrain on it that you want to move through.

[druid91]

The official Apocalypse trays are borderline useless, since they're made for that game, specifically, where unit coherency is 1/2". That's real bad in a game where unit coherency is 2" (i.e; in 40K).
Even if you can get past that, trays work, right up until your board has terrain on it that you want to move through.

Why is that really bad though? Unless it's a Melee unit. But even there, I would forgo the use of trays entirely.

[LansXero]

They're pretty useful to set up, makes it faster and helps carry stuff as well.

[Cheesegear]

They're pretty useful to set up, makes it faster and helps carry stuff as well.

Pretty much.
I guess what I meant to say, is that they're really useful in ITC where you castle up and win games, and 1/2" coherancy on your units is fine-thank-you-very-much 'cause what you're trying to do is jam as many models into a Ruin's - or other terrain piece's, I suppose - footprint as you can.

For an army that actually wants to move at all - and that includes most hordes - and especially in Maelstrom, movement trays become obsolete on Turn 1, because they aren't so much movement trays, as they are carry trays. Explain to me how a unit of 30 Termagants conga-lining 45" from the Neurothrope in their DZ, to the Objective in your DZ can be adequately mounted on movement trays?

Spoiler

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One of my favourite images from Cancon this year. This is what used to happen before ITC introduced chess clocks...And I used to use it show people on Facebook how they were playing Tyranids totally wrong. Termagants are worse than Guardsmen. They don't do anything, except never fail Morale tests, and when 30 models is only 120 Points, you have some of the best board control in the game, and how are you not winning every game you play?
(No, you see, Tyranids are really bad. A player who hasn't played since 5th Ed., told me. What they might mean, is, "Tyranids, the way I want to play them, are bad." Which is a whole different thing. Apply the same to Orks, too, while you're at it.)

But, the point is, that this would basically be impossible using movement trays, because the unit starts the game as a blob, then evolves into being on the other side of the board.

Imgur Link

[Stardot]

Anyone know any insect minis roughly the size of a Hive Tyrant sans wings

[Wraith]

Explain to me how a unit of 30 Termagants conga-lining 45" from the Neurothrope in their DZ, to the Objective in your DZ can be adequately mounted on movement trays?

Wasn't there a rule that a unit could only claim one objective at a time? Or was that something outdated from a previous edition? Because that is disgusting..... I love it, but its disgusting

Anyone know any insect minis roughly the size of a Hive Tyrant sans wings

Goblin Arachnoks and Giant Spiders, from AoS?

OoP Tomb Kings' Tome Scorpions? Shelob from GW's Lord of the Rings line? Reaper Miniatures do a list of D&D stuff that includes giant insects, spiders, and insectile stuff like Frost Wyrms?

Or try your local toy shop and see if they have any giant insect toys - I know one or two people who bought plastic toy dinosaurs and used them as Carnosaurs/Stegadons a few generations of Lizardmen ago.

[Stardot]

Never noticed the gigantic spider was on a 50mm base, thanks!

[JNAProductions]

So, I'm looking at getting into 30k. Advice on picking a legion/faction? General how-to? Other advice?

[Drasius]

So, I'm looking at getting into 30k. Advice on picking a legion/faction? General how-to? Other advice?

Depends on your meta and what you want out of your army. Obvious advice is to paint what you like, but I probably wouldn't play Emperors Children with major hopes of rolling face nor expect to field Thousad Sons without being called a power gamer. You are officially a terrible person if you field phosphex rapiers in any amount and I'm fairly sure it's legal to murder anyone who brings 9.

Most legions have neat tricks you can build into or special characters to build around, so again, pick what you like, especially if your meta really is narrative focused.

Despite the fact that it uses 7ths ruleset, there's quite a few differences and the missions alone show that, but there's also a significant departure from the normal force org chart in how you build your army, occasionally making for some annoying restrictions.

AV 14 suddenly means something again because armoured ceramite means no double dice for melta and it's on (or available on) almost everything. Expect to see a Spartan with termies and a praetor and/or primarch rammed down the middle, so having a plan for dealing with that is a thing.

Non-legion forces are usually quite strong and often a fair departure from the cavalcade of t4 3+ bodies you generally expect to see. Choom Volkite will do serious work against solar auxilia but you'll likely be a touch disappointed if you turn it on custards. Pure knights is less common, but can be a real spoiler army to some lists.

Almost everything is geared around removing marines without saves, so expect to sweep 20 man tac squads off the board like they were grots. Still, you need some troop presence since only certain models score in most missions.

If you can summon Vaz, they will undoubtedly have much better advice than anything I could give though, so definitely listen to Vaz.

[JNAProductions]

Thanks for the advice, Drasius. :)

[Cheesegear]

If you can summon Vaz, they will undoubtedly have much better advice than anything I could give though, so definitely listen to Vaz.

Vaz was banhammered quite some time ago, IIRC. So...Good like with that.

[Drasius]

Geez, I go dark for a few days weeks months years and I lose track of everyone.

In that case, yeah, either post up what style of army you want to play and I can suggest a legion to look at or throw out a couple of legions and I can probably put together a few things to start looking at. One of the biggest factors is going to be if you've got a certain rite of war / playstyle in mind, though you can make anything work. Despite the memes, white scars had a group of seige specialists, iron warriors had a force focused on bikes and speeders, death guard had pure tank forces etc.

[Cheesegear]

Wasn't there a rule that a unit could only claim one objective at a time? Or was that something outdated from a previous edition?

A single unit may hold multiple Objectives. The idea being that because an Objective is held by 'most models', it's unlikely that a single unit could hold multiple Objectives with any decent amount of models, and that if you really tried, you could stop them. Unfortunately, that rule has become significantly dated as GW keeps introducing ways to make cheap models, durable, and multiple ways of preventing them from taking Morale tests - including just spending 2 CPs.

Because that is disgusting...I love it, but its disgusting

If you're pushing your horde forwards with a Casino Chips Rake, and therefore that makes you believe that movement trays would speed up your movement phase, you're playing your horde wrong, and you have massively not understood why hordes are so strong. You can't just 'push them forwards', and that's why they take so long to play. If you could just push them forwards, there'd be no problem. But you can't just say 'Movement trays wont work' because most people can't understand why without visual assistance, because most people don't 'play the game that way', because it doesn't occur to them to do so, or, they're simply unwilling to.

Measuring unit- and Objective-coherency (and for Tyranids you have to add in Synapse, too), takes up a huge amount of time because you're moving your units non-uniformly, whilst maintaining 'clusters' of models that you can remove from the unit after casualties, that don't break the entire conga line.

[JNAProductions]

Geez, I go dark for a few days weeks months years and I lose track of everyone.

In that case, yeah, either post up what style of army you want to play and I can suggest a legion to look at or throw out a couple of legions and I can probably put together a few things to start looking at. One of the biggest factors is going to be if you've got a certain rite of war / playstyle in mind, though you can make anything work. Despite the memes, white scars had a group of seige specialists, iron warriors had a force focused on bikes and speeders, death guard had pure tank forces etc.

Can I get some details on Word Bearers, Iron Hands, and Imperial Fists?

[Avaris]

Can I get some details on Word Bearers, Iron Hands, and Imperial Fists?

Goohhammer has an in depth article on HH Iron Hands, and I think are doing others fortnightly. https://www.goonhammer.com/warhammer...he-iron-hands/

[JNAProductions]

Goohhammer has an in depth article on HH Iron Hands, and I think are doing others fortnightly. https://www.goonhammer.com/warhammer...he-iron-hands/

Ooh... Shiny...

[Squark]

Making a Battle Company

NB. This is based on the Chapter Organisation found in Imperial Fists, not in the core Codex.

Spoiler: Rationale

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x6 Battleline
Intercessors: Bolt Rifles and Stalkers. Both are very good for what they do. The majority of the 8th Ed. Battle Company should be represented by these dudes.

Tacticals: Grav-Cannon Heavy Bolter and Combi-Plasma? Still very expensive for 1-wound models, whose cheapness is cancelled out by the fact that you have to pick up Heavy Bolters to make them worth anything? Skip.

Infiltrators: I play in Maelstrom. One unit is basically required. I'd go for two units of 5 for greater board control. But since I already know the HQ I'm going to pick, that's not important.

The biggest problem is lack of Heavy weapons. Yeah, sure. Fists' Stalker Bolt Rifles are Heavy and Bolt weapons, and that's...Something. If I was Iron Hands, it'd be all Stalkers, all the time. But, I'm not, so it's not.

x2 Close Support
Reivers: ...No.

Incursors: Not being Battleline, really hurts this unit when it comes to making a Battle Company. It's just not going to fit into twin Battalions or a Brigade. So...Next. I love Incursors for a Turn 1 stall tactic, but...Yeah. They're just not gonna fit.

Inceptors: I want to include them so bad. Unfortunately, they just don't bring what I'm not already bringing. I wish I had Scouts in my Troops slot.

Assault Squad: ...No.

Centurion Assault Squads: ...God damn these guys are so good. Strong really strong horde-clearing power, combined with dedicated Vehicle smashing, all on a tough, durable unit, that only costs ~50 Points a model. Unfortunately, I just can't justify them, 'cause they're just so slow, and I don't think I can keep them alive for that long.

Biker Squads: Cheap source of Meltaguns? Yes. Also carries Twin Boltguns each? ...Yes. Very solid unit. I'm also not White Scars, I'm Imperial Fists. So I treat them like a T5 unit that carries Storm Bolters...Not like a Melee unit that can't climb stairs.

Attack Bikes: ...No.

Land Speeders: ...It's times like these I wish I played Iron Hands or Ultramarines. Unfortunately...I don't. I have to play...*vomit* a fair Chapter of Space Marines.

x2 Fire Support
Hellblasters: I'd really like to carry a unit of Heavies. Unfortunately, that's a lot of points...So...Pass. For now. I think.

Eliminators: I don't play in an ITC meta where seeing through walls is mandatory. I'm also carting a bunch of Stalker Rifles, and we already know the HQ I'm running. I really need Heavy weapons at this point.

Aggressors: ...In an army that's running six Troops as it is, and all Boltguns, at that, Aggressors give me what I don't need.

Suppressors: ...What am I? Ultramarines or Iron Hands?

Devastators: There it is. Heavy Bolter, Lascannons (x2), Missile Launcher, Fat Baby. 150 Points. Will really like to upgrade to x4 Lascannons. We'll see how the points shake out.

Centurion Devastators: I'd love to. But no. Not this time.

Characters
Captain: ...Tor Garadon, is out. Obviously looking at the standard Battle Company, it's extremely shooty. So, looks like we're taking the Phobos Captain for a cool 99 Points.
Lieutenant: Primaris, for preference. But, we're Imperial Fists, so a small!Lieutenant with a Storm Bolter is good enough for me.
Company Ancient: Primaris, for preference.
Company Champion: ...Eew. Really? Do I have to?
Company Veterans: ...*Vomit*

Dreadnoughts
Dreadnoughts and Venerable Dreadnoughts carry Heavy weapons that I desperately need. Unfortunately, Venerable Dreads cost a few extra points that I really don't want to spend. A Contemptor Dreadnought is one of the best units Imperial Fists can field...But, once again, I don't think I have the points, and a single Assault Cannon just isn't that great. Redemptors I'm not running, 'cause once again, I'm not Iron Hands. Vicky Warsuits I'd strongly like to run, and once again, we'll see what we're doing.

Let's apply my knowledge...

Spoiler: Core List

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Imperial Fists, Battalion
Captain in Phobos Armour; Master-Crafted Instigator Bolt Carbine, Camo Cloak - 99 Points
Lieutenant; Storm Bolter & Chainsword - 62 Points

Intercessors (x5); Stalker Bolt Rifles, Stalker Bolt Rifle & Chainsword - 85 Points
Intercessors (x5); Stalker Bolt Rifles, Stalker Bolt Rifle & Chainsword - 85 Points
Intercessors (x5); Bolt Rifles, Bolt Rifle & Chainsword - 85 Points

Bikes (x3); Meltagun (x2), Combi-Melta, Twin Boltguns (x3) - 112 Points
Bikes (x3); Meltagun (x2), Combi-Melta, Twin Boltguns (x3) - 112 Points

Imperial Fists, Battalion
HQ 1; ???
HQ 2; ???

Intercessors (x5); Bolt Rifles, Bolt Rifle & Chainsword - 85 Points
Intercessors (x5); Bolt Rifles, Bolt Rifle & Chainsword - 85 Points
Infiltrators (x5) - 110 Points

Devastators (x5); Heavy Bolter, Lascannons (x2), Missile Launcher, Armorium Cherub - 150 Points
Devastators (x5); Heavy Bolter, Lascannons (x2), Missile Launcher, Armorium Cherub - 150 Points

Total: 1220 Points

...Huh? Is that all. Well, I'm missing all those extra Veteran models, and I still need two extra HQs. Librarian and Chaplain, obviously.

Spoiler

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Librarian; Force Stave, Tectonic Purge - 88 Points
Chaplain; Recitation of Focus - 72 Points

Primaris Ancient - 69 Points
Company Champion; Master-Crafted Power Sword, Combat Shield - 51 Points
Company Veterans (x5); Storm Bolters & Chainswords - 80 Points

Total: 1580 Points

...Take out those dumb Veterans and it's exactly 1500 Points...That's...Something. Now to add Dreadnoughts. Now that I'm including Vehicles in my list, might as well add a Techmarine, right?

Spoiler: +Dreadnoughts

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Techmarine; Boltgun & Chainsword - 45 Points

Dreadnought; Missile Launcher, Twin Lascannon - 130 Points
Dreadnought; Missile Launcher, Twin Lascannon - 130 Points

Total: 1885 Points

Well, make 'em both Venerable for +40 Points. Let's switch the Techmarine, for a full-on Thunderfire Cannon for...uhh...'Support Elements', for +47 Points. Still 28 Points to go. Huh. Remember, the Chaplain's Litany, if it goes off, gives +1 to hit, so what's wrong with upping one of the Devastators to Hellblasters (+25) that can't explode?

Spoiler: Final List

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Imperial Fists, Battalion
Captain in Phobos Armour; Master-Crafted Instigator Bolt Carbine, Camo Cloak - 99 Points
Lieutenant; Storm Bolter & Chainsword - 62 Points

Intercessors (x5); Stalker Bolt Rifles, Stalker Bolt Rifle & Chainsword - 85 Points
Intercessors (x5); Stalker Bolt Rifles, Stalker Bolt Rifle & Chainsword - 85 Points
Intercessors (x5); Bolt Rifles, Bolt Rifle & Chainsword - 85 Points

Primaris Ancient - 69 Points
Company Champion; Master-Crafted Power Sword, Combat Shield - 51 Points
Company Veterans (x5); Storm Bolters & Chainswords - 80 Points

Bikes (x3); Meltagun (x2), Combi-Melta, Twin Boltguns (x3) - 112 Points
Bikes (x3); Meltagun (x2), Combi-Melta, Twin Boltguns (x3) - 112 Points

Imperial Fists, Battalion
Librarian; Force Stave, Tectonic Purge - 88 Points
Chaplain; Recitation of Focus - 72 Points

Intercessors (x5); Bolt Rifles, Bolt Rifle & Chainsword - 85 Points
Intercessors (x5); Bolt Rifles, Bolt Rifle & Chainsword - 85 Points
Infiltrators (x5) - 110 Points

Venerable Dreadnought; Missile Launcher, Twin Lascannon - 150 Points
Venerable Dreadnought; Missile Launcher, Twin Lascannon - 150 Points

Devastators (x5); Heavy Bolter, Lascannons (x2), Missile Launcher, Armorium Cherub - 150 Points
Hellblasters (x5); Heavy Plasma Incinerators - 175 Points
Thunderfire Cannon; Flamer, Plasma Cutter - 92 Points

Total: 1997 Points | 13 CPs

...Huh. That actually looks better than I originally thought it would. Maybe switch the Dreads to Contemptors? Playtest time, I guess. I think I actually have to switch them to Vicky Warsuits for some early board control?

Doesn't a full battle company have two Lieutenants, though?

[Renegade Paladin]

Well, ran the Learn to Play today. No one really new showed up, just two veteran players from the 5th edition days looking to get back in. They seemed excited, though, so maybe it'll stick.

[Cheesegear]

Felt a little bit bad when my aforementioned fairly fluffy Space Marine Company totally smashed a gimmick Salamanders' list, 22-7.

Spoiler: For reference

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Battalion
Vulkan He'stan
Lieutenant; Combi-Melta & Chainsword

Scouts (x5); Missile Launcher
Scouts (x5); Heavy Bolter
Scouts (x5); Sniper Rifles (x5)

Assault Centurions (x5); Flamers & Hurricanes
Assault Centurions (x5); Flamers & Hurricanes
Assault Centurions (x4); Flamers & Hurricanes

Land Raider Crusader; Multi-Melta, Storm Bolter
Land Raider Crusader; Multi-Melta, Storm Bolter
Land Raider Crusader; Storm Bolter

I deployed first, he went first. He moved everything up...Then lost the game.
I never expected my list to do so well on its first go-round.
Then again, I basically went against my dream matchup.

[druid91]

Spoiler

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So, Kitbashed Cult Witch for Necromunda. Thoughts?

[Blackhawk748]

Spoiler

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So, Kitbashed Cult Witch for Necromunda. Thoughts?

Looks solid to me, kinda hard to get a good look at detail though

[LansXero]

An Aeldari list topped last weekend playing The Yncarne and Shining Spears.

Clearly I know nothing and should go play the Sims as I cant make heads nor tails off that list.

[Renegade Paladin]

Well, it's official. I'm running the 40k Learn to Play at Indy Storm. Got my badge comped and everything. Working lists for teaching purposes:

Spoiler: Dark Angels

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++ Patrol Detachment (Imperium - Dark Angels) [32 PL, 519pts] ++

+ HQ +

Librarian [7 PL, 88pts]: 2) Aversion, 3. Brilliant Strategist, Force stave, Warlord

+ Troops +

Scout Squad [4 PL, 98pts]: 5x Camo cloak
. Heavy Weapon Scout: Missile launcher
. 3x Scout (Sniper rifle): 3x Sniper rifle
. Scout Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Sniper rifle

Tactical Squad [9 PL, 156pts]: 7x Space Marine
. Heavy Weapon Marine: Heavy bolter
. Space Marine Sergeant: Chainsword, Plasma pistol
. Special Weapon Marine: Plasma gun

+ Fast Attack +

Assault Squad [6 PL, 84pts]: Jump Pack
. Assault Marine Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Combat shield, Power axe
. 4x Space Marine (Bolt Pistol)

Ravenwing Land Speeders [6 PL, 93pts]
. Ravenwing Land Speeder: Heavy bolter, Typhoon missile launcher

++ Total: [32 PL, 519pts] ++

Spoiler: Imperial Guard

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++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Astra Militarum) [24 PL, 439pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Regimental Doctrine: Regiment: Cadian

+ HQ +

Company Commander [2 PL, 38pts]: Grand Strategist, Laspistol, Power fist, Warlord

Primaris Psyker [2 PL, 46pts]: Force Stave

+ Troops +

Infantry Squad [3 PL, 56pts]
. 6x Guardsman
. Guardsman W/ Special Weapon: Flamer
. Heavy Weapon Team: Autocannon
. Sergeant: Chainsword, Laspistol

Infantry Squad [3 PL, 67pts]
. 6x Guardsman
. Guardsman W/ Special Weapon: Plasma gun
. Heavy Weapon Team: Lascannon
. Sergeant: Chainsword, Laspistol

Infantry Squad [3 PL, 56pts]
. 6x Guardsman
. Guardsman W/ Special Weapon: Flamer
. Heavy Weapon Team: Autocannon
. Sergeant: Chainsword, Laspistol

+ Elites +

Veterans [5 PL, 97pts]
. Veteran Sergeant: Chainsword, Laspistol
. Veteran W/ Heavy Flamer: Heavy flamer
. 5x Veteran w/ Lasgun
. Veteran w/ Special Weapon: Plasma gun
. Veteran w/ Special Weapon: Plasma gun
. Veteran w/ Special Weapon: Plasma gun

+ Dedicated Transport +

Chimera [6 PL, 79pts]: Heavy Flamer, Multi-laser

++ Total: [24 PL, 439pts] ++

Neither list is designed to be super good, but rather to showcase common unit types and interact with every phase of the game, hence the Librarian and Assault Marines. If anyone's got any ideas, let me know. My Dark Angels selection is fairly limited, but I can do most anything with Imperial Guard that doesn't involve Ogryns or Sentinels.