Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXIX: Miracle on 39th Thread

[Amechra]

Yeah no, whatever they do on their fun time should have no bearing on what they put out for sale. I hate Catan yet have to promote it because its a very popular gateway game and has a lot of buzz behind. This isnt some clubhouse, they're supposed to be professionals doing a paid job for a company.

But then it'd take a design document, clear literature on how mechanics interact with each other and actual professional rules design work. None of which are a thing for them apparently.

There's a difference there - you're selling Catan. You don't need to know or understand anything about it to do your job - it helps, but you don't need it.

That's not the case when you're making the game, though. Ideally, you'd have a QA team playtesting it and clear communication channels between them and development... but sometimes that doesn't happen (for whatever crazy reason, management has this nasty tendency to undervalue QA). If you make the development team playtest in addition to their other duties, they'll do a bad job because testing things is hard and not very fun.

[Blackhawk748]

There's a difference there - you're selling Catan. You don't need to know or understand anything about it to do your job - it helps, but you don't need it.

That's not the case when you're making the game, though. Ideally, you'd have a QA team playtesting it and clear communication channels between them and development... but sometimes that doesn't happen (for whatever crazy reason, management has this nasty tendency to undervalue QA). If you make the development team playtest in addition to their other duties, they'll do a bad job because testing things is hard and not very fun.

Frankly, I'm amazed more companies don't do what Mantic did when they released Kings of War. They gave out Beta lists on their website and told us all to break it.

And boy howdy did we.

As such, by the time we got to 2.0 (the current game), we hammered the absolute bejeesus out of that game, though some things got a bit annoying as 2.0 went on, thus the yearly changes in Clash of Kings.

Basically, GW sort of, but not really, did this with Sisters. It's just they were really bad about how they did it. What helped Mantic was that they have a Forum of their own and a Rules Committee made up of a fair mix of people (including many TOs) that don't work for Mantic. Also, all Kings of War tournaments use the same rules, or if they don't, don't count when we're talking about balance.

Basically Mantic stole a lot of the old guard who knew what they were doing and the new guys have no real way to pressure management into listening to them.

[Avaris]

Frankly, I'm amazed more companies don't do what Mantic did when they released Kings of War. They gave out Beta lists on their website and told us all to break it.

And boy howdy did we.

As such, by the time we got to 2.0 (the current game), we hammered the absolute bejeesus out of that game, though some things got a bit annoying as 2.0 went on, thus the yearly changes in Clash of Kings.

Basically, GW sort of, but not really, did this with Sisters. It's just they were really bad about how they did it. What helped Mantic was that they have a Forum of their own and a Rules Committee made up of a fair mix of people (including many TOs) that don't work for Mantic. Also, all Kings of War tournaments use the same rules, or if they don't, don't count when we're talking about balance.

Basically Mantic stole a lot of the old guard who knew what they were doing and the new guys have no real way to pressure management into listening to them.

I really wish GW did this, but they have such an institutional mindset of secrecy that they work under. Woe betide putting anything out there that is not in a ‘finished’ state: everything must be perfect when it goes out. They at least get outside playtesters now, but that’s a drop in the ocean

There are obvious reasons why they don’t of course, chiefly that if they start putting out rules in this way they would be less able to sell the rules. But this is why they need to change their rules distribution model: a subscription based app, which included clearly marked beta rules that they wanted to test, could be really good.

[LansXero]

Privateer did that and the CID is at the top of most people's reasons to quit the game.

Its less about community input, more about quality work from paid professionals. You dont need to learn a game you yourself have made; who are you going to learn it from? you're the foremost authority on something that came from yourself!

While the horrendous writing - printing lead times do throw a wrench in the works, its all being developed by the same team, so even if something is still in development it should influence the design of things that are being worked on but slated for a later release. If they had a sane process of course which we know they dont.

[Selpharia]

I do get the sentiment, but I kinda always assume that when people worship a deity the assumed gender of said deity doesn't matter so much as the aspect (unless that aspect is like masculinity/femininity, or something). Unless we're talking about the Greeks, because Zeus.

Either way, Sylvaneth/Wanderers might(?) be a better example then, as they worship Allarielle, though they are not purely female as a faction. Do trees have genders? I guess some of the Revenant spirits look that way.

I actually have the Daughters as well, though I emphasize the snakes who are more Morathi-aligned. With Sisters you have the extra gender dynamics of the Imperial Creed with parallels to real-world subjugation of women makes it harder, for me at least, to make the case about a god’s aspect. I mean, my Custodes explicitly worship the Emperor in Her feminine aspect, so I’m not super militant about it.

[Renegade Paladin]

Privateer did that and the CID is at the top of most people's reasons to quit the game.

Its less about community input, more about quality work from paid professionals. You dont need to learn a game you yourself have made; who are you going to learn it from? you're the foremost authority on something that came from yourself!

It is at this time that I will point out that every author needs an editor, because what one intends and what one writes down are often two entirely different things and the writer will rarely notice that.

[Avaris]

It is at this time that I will point out that every author needs an editor, because what one intends and what one writes down are often two entirely different things and the writer will rarely notice that.

I think, historically, this has been the core of GW’s problems. Rulebooks were typically written by one person, and I’m not sure if there was any sort of editing process. And even if there was, how much did it focus on rules content?

I suspect there may be better coherency now; look at AoS, which has an established way of writing each rule so that they check for consistency between similar mechanics. But I wouldn’t be surprised if the editing/checking process was much more a system of peer review rather than a specific, seperate job with a different set of skills.

[Cheesegear]

Rulebooks were typically written by one person...

They're written, now, by two or three people, and there are still glaring problems. One of the main issues being that it isn't the same group of 2-3 people writing each book, which is why there are massive balance issues. Because 'we'll fix it later', because the most important part of selling a product, is getting it to market as fast as possible. This means that points costs and certain Stratagems are totally b0rked because nothing is play-tested adequately.

inb4; 'At least it's out, right.' Look. No-one wants to go back to 9 years between Codecies. That's clearly never going to happen again. What most people want is:
a) Maybe two or three months playtime on a Codex before it's sent to print. Currently, as per the Ministorum Sororitas rollout, we know it's less than one month of R&D.
b) Maybe, if people are waiting a long time between Codecies or releases, you could shart out an Index version of the Codex, for free, or put a few updates into White Dwarf, just to tide people over.

Now that all Codecies are out, and ITC has clear tournament data (regardless of whether or not it's based on 'the real game', or not...Kill Points are Kill Points). We should never have an unbalanced or underwhelming Codex ever again.

and I’m not sure if there was any sort of editing process.

Writer 1: Does this look okay?
Writer 2: I haven't played with this Faction in seven months. I have no idea at all what I'm doing...So...I think so?
Writer 3: Both of you just shut up. We'll patch it later in six months, the fanbois and apologists will love it anyway. Does this Stratagem sound right to you?
Writer 1: I have no time for that, I haven't even written the Sub-Faction Traits yet and this **** is due tomorrow.

the editing/checking process was much more a system of peer review...

Not even peer review. It's partner review. The guy who is editing you, is working on the project with you. If neither of you know what you're doing, then the 'review process' is hardly going to be accurate.

"This project is full of flaws and inconsistencies."
Well, the guy responsible for peer reviewing and/or editing it, worked on it with us, and he said it was fine.
"...So, you get to peer review yourselves?"
Yeah. Nobody has any time to not be working on their own projects because our overlords are demanding a product every. Single. Month.

[Wraith]

Yeah no, whatever they do on their fun time should have no bearing on what they put out for sale.

I'm not at all suggesting that the writers not be allowed to play their own armies when they're not at work. But when they ARE at work and they're being paid to write a Codex, they need to put that bias aside and learn how to play the army that they're writing for, and how it should fit into the wider meta - not just take a guess based off reading other forces and altering what they know about their 'pet' army based on assumptions and heresay.

This isnt some clubhouse, they're supposed to be professionals doing a paid job for a company.

My point, in a nutshell. Robbin Cruddance was a professional writer and gaming developer PAID to write a version of Codex Tyranids that people wanted to buy, but he didn't because.... well, I can only guess at the specific reasons, but I can make a guess that he didn't do enough research into a subject that he didnt understand, and I know he hasn't been asked to write much since.

[LansXero]

Everyone is glossing over the fact that unpaid fans who have no monetary reason to care about most factions can still math away how things are broken or not. Familiarity / playtest would do away with the finicky, hard-to-catch stuff, sure, but many point costs and other errors show a fundamental lack of understanding of the numbers involved, which are not faction or model specific.

our overlords are demanding a product every. Single. Month.

So? Whats the problem here? A whole month for iterative design with plenty to build from. Its a JOB, its not supposed to be about what tickles your fancy or about being inspired. Hell a regular codex a month would come out to what, 4 pages a day? 1/4 of those are stock fotos; another huge portion is fluff you can crib off black library or lexicanum (minus new developments); grab a white dwarf for the heraldry and painting portion and what you're really doing for a whole month is stretching an excel sheet into several pages worth of 'units'. SO. HARD-

[Cheesegear]

So? Whats the problem here? A whole month for iterative design with plenty to build from. Its a JOB, its not supposed to be about what tickles your fancy or about being inspired. Hell a regular codex a month would come out to what, 4 pages a day? 1/4 of those are stock fotos; another huge portion is fluff you can crib off black library or lexicanum (minus new developments); grab a white dwarf for the heraldry and painting portion and what you're really doing for a whole month is stretching an excel sheet into several pages worth of 'units'. SO. HARD-

I knew I forgot something.
I agree with you. But GW designers have said once or twice how much pressure they're under. But, that's part of work. That you're paid for. You're paid to be stressed.

However, I think there's a problem with game designers. It's toy soldiers. It's supposed to be fun. Unfortunately, GW doesn't really run like other miniature companies - being publicly traded. Working for GW is different. To steal your own quote; Toy soldiers is serious business. That's why like, all ex-GW staff are bitter about their time there. It's basically what happens every time 'creatives' brush up against business. I get the same thing when I do commission painting. I get a deadline. But 'art takes as long it takes, man'. No. Wrong. I gave a quote, and part of that quote, was time, and if I don't stick to it, the customer gets mad. That's why I don't really do commissions often 'cause I have an actual job, where I'm basically on-call whenever my employer feels like it, so I don't actually know my schedule any longer than two weeks in advance.

[LansXero]

We have a friend here who does comission work. He works like an assembly line, and has very little issue meeting his deadlines. Then again every now and then someone pays him to 'go nuts'. Make a galaxy pattern, try wet blending with the new colorshift paints, your call, I dont care. So he takes as long as he needs to because thats what the customer wants: a unique, original result thats closer to art than car paint. But for 'skaven army Nº 259', its all airbrush and mechanically going through the paces.

Maybe its a culture thing, but deadlines and creativity dont need to be at odds with each other. You say there are 4 weeks and 3 people for a book, right?. You already have data and work from the indexes. You get 3 days to come up with random crap. Creativity is not spontaneous, its far easier to be creative within a set framework than to 'come up with something' starting from a blank. You've got years of design work to lift from, between ability names, past iterations, past interactions, tons of result that avid fans have already sifted and streamlined for you for free. So after this 'run wild' period you begin to fill pages. Grab your target pagecount number, slash the portions reserved for artwork (like on ANY publishing work ever, this is not some secret science, even college journals work this way), stablish word count per section and set to filling them up. Army rules go here, subfaction count is 6, so 2 for each people, bring them tomorrow we see if any steps on any other's design space. Again, plenty of material to work with, from fiction to videogames to past editions to RPG books. Too much? jump over to Lexicanum / Warhammer wiki were generous nerds already do your 'hard' work of data collation for you for free.

At the end of the week, all non-datasheet work has no excuse to be over, and thats being extremely generous with time. Datasheets already also have a lot thats done for them.

Take Eldar:
- Infantry is T3 S3 W1 Mv.7 WS3 BS3.
Thats your base statline, tweak it as fits battlefield roles (speedier banshees, tougher wraith constructs, etc). Thats less than a morning for what? 12 statblocks? across 4 people? hell make it a half day per battlefield role, thats 3 days, another day to go over each with special rules (which will also lead to copy paste; all bikes get 'always advances 6', all shuriken get 'high AP on 6 to wound' etc. then another for a final review. Thats 2 weeks. Another week to tweak point costs and another to playtest. Where is the pressure?

[Blackhawk748]

My point, in a nutshell. Robbin Cruddance was a professional writer and gaming developer PAID to write a version of Codex Tyranids that people wanted to buy, but he didn't because.... well, I can only guess at the specific reasons, but I can make a guess that he didn't do enough research into a subject that he didnt understand, and I know he hasn't been asked to write much since.

From what I heard after that...mess. He said that he thought Tyranid players wanted to play Monster Mash, and since he's a treadhead he kinda knew how to do that. So he did.

Turns out he forgot that Bug Carpet was the primary style of play and so pissed off a lot of people

I knew I forgot something.
I agree with you. But GW designers have said once or twice how much pressure they're under. But, that's part of work. That you're paid for. You're paid to be stressed.

However, I think there's a problem with game designers. It's toy soldiers. It's supposed to be fun. Unfortunately, GW doesn't really run like other miniature companies - being publicly traded. Working for GW is different. To steal your own quote; Toy soldiers is serious business. That's why like, all ex-GW staff are bitter about their time there. It's basically what happens every time 'creatives' brush up against business. I get the same thing when I do commission painting. I get a deadline. But 'art takes as long it takes, man'. No. Wrong. I gave a quote, and part of that quote, was time, and if I don't stick to it, the customer gets mad. That's why I don't really do commissions often 'cause I have an actual job, where I'm basically on-call whenever my employer feels like it, so I don't actually know my schedule any longer than two weeks in advance.

I've talked to some of the EX-GW guys at Mantic while at Gencon. Ya, they have very, very little good to say about how that company is run internally. That's actually all they ever said to me. "I don't have anything to good to say otehr than the benefits where nice". They don't elaborate, they don't go off, they just say that Mantic is how GW used to be and that its a much nicer place to work.

[Forum Explorer]

We have a friend here who does comission work. He works like an assembly line, and has very little issue meeting his deadlines. Then again every now and then someone pays him to 'go nuts'. Make a galaxy pattern, try wet blending with the new colorshift paints, your call, I dont care. So he takes as long as he needs to because thats what the customer wants: a unique, original result thats closer to art than car paint. But for 'skaven army Nº 259', its all airbrush and mechanically going through the paces.

Maybe its a culture thing, but deadlines and creativity dont need to be at odds with each other. You say there are 4 weeks and 3 people for a book, right?. You already have data and work from the indexes. You get 3 days to come up with random crap. Creativity is not spontaneous, its far easier to be creative within a set framework than to 'come up with something' starting from a blank. You've got years of design work to lift from, between ability names, past iterations, past interactions, tons of result that avid fans have already sifted and streamlined for you for free. So after this 'run wild' period you begin to fill pages. Grab your target pagecount number, slash the portions reserved for artwork (like on ANY publishing work ever, this is not some secret science, even college journals work this way), stablish word count per section and set to filling them up. Army rules go here, subfaction count is 6, so 2 for each people, bring them tomorrow we see if any steps on any other's design space. Again, plenty of material to work with, from fiction to videogames to past editions to RPG books. Too much? jump over to Lexicanum / Warhammer wiki were generous nerds already do your 'hard' work of data collation for you for free.

At the end of the week, all non-datasheet work has no excuse to be over, and thats being extremely generous with time. Datasheets already also have a lot thats done for them.

Take Eldar:
- Infantry is T3 S3 W1 Mv.7 WS3 BS3.
Thats your base statline, tweak it as fits battlefield roles (speedier banshees, tougher wraith constructs, etc). Thats less than a morning for what? 12 statblocks? across 4 people? hell make it a half day per battlefield role, thats 3 days, another day to go over each with special rules (which will also lead to copy paste; all bikes get 'always advances 6', all shuriken get 'high AP on 6 to wound' etc. then another for a final review. Thats 2 weeks. Another week to tweak point costs and another to playtest. Where is the pressure?

Part of the time crunch is writing out all the fluff. Yeah, they basically copy a bunch of it, but it's never a literal copy, so they are writing it out every time. And they do add in new stuff. Also it wouldn't surprise me if one of those three people was an artist who's primary job is drawing the pictures.

[LansXero]

Part of the time crunch is writing out all the fluff. Yeah, they basically copy a bunch of it, but it's never a literal copy, so they are writing it out every time. And they do add in new stuff. Also it wouldn't surprise me if one of those three people was an artist who's primary job is drawing the pictures.

They do also reuse a lot of art; counting graphic talent as rules writers feels disingenuous though; it should be the same team doing that, social media, wallpapers, etc. As for the fluff, sure they make new stuff, but even there it should all refer back to the main design document about where the narrative is heading, tying up with planned BL releases, etc. so it should all still not occur in a vacuum. This in turn speeds up / facilitates writing fluff for each codex since its more about how to fit in the broader narrative than coming up with the ramifications and implications of everything on its own.

[Forum Explorer]

They do also reuse a lot of art; counting graphic talent as rules writers feels disingenuous though; it should be the same team doing that, social media, wallpapers, etc. As for the fluff, sure they make new stuff, but even there it should all refer back to the main design document about where the narrative is heading, tying up with planned BL releases, etc. so it should all still not occur in a vacuum. This in turn speeds up / facilitates writing fluff for each codex since its more about how to fit in the broader narrative than coming up with the ramifications and implications of everything on its own.

I'm not counting graphic talent as rules writers, I'm saying that GW assigns something like three people to a codex, and those people have to do everything in the codex; fluff, art, rules, and even those showcase pictures.

Is it a dumb system? Yes. They really should have a main design document to make sure they all follow the same narrative and all those things you said. Is GW actually doing that? I doubt it.

Mind you, I do think GW does do some playtesting. The problem is we've seen the sort of lists GW likes to run, and they are the fluffiest pieces of crap I've ever seen. Matched up against something similarly fluffy. So GW doesn't really get how things actually work on a competitive level.

[Cheesegear]

We have a friend here who does comission work. He works like an assembly line, and has very little issue meeting his deadlines. Then again every now and then someone pays him to 'go nuts'. Make a galaxy pattern, try wet blending with the new colorshift paints, your call, I dont care. So he takes as long as he needs to because thats what the customer wants: a unique, original result thats closer to art than car paint. But for 'skaven army Nº 259', its all airbrush and mechanically going through the paces.

Is commission painting his actual job?
Anyway, in my case, the reason people want their armies painted, is for a tournament, and usually they've left it 'til the very, very last possible minute to go shopping for a commission. Which means crunch time is much...Shorter...That it should be.

As I said, the biggest drain on my time, is my job - and my boss. It doesn't leave a lot of painting time, and usually quite a bit less than I may have quoted.

Maybe its a culture thing, but deadlines and creativity dont need to be at odds with each other.

Of course they don't. Never said they did. Unfortunately, you and I both know that this isn't the first time we've said 'A Job You're Paid For = Work'.
But there's also the saying 'If you do what you love, you'll never work a day in your life.' which is total horse****. Because I can tell you for a fact that there are a whole lot of people in the world who love Nursing, and they're working their arses off, every damned day. Same with Teaching.

Taking a hobby, and turning it into a commercial product is a fairly big uhhh...Culture...Shock. You hate Catan, but you have to sell it anyway. How can you sell a product that you don't even like/endorse? 'Cause you have to.

I think it's less of a culture thing, and more of a generational thing. A job, designed around a fun activity, should be fun, not a job.
A lot of people don't like doing what they don't want to do. Something people don't like, is feeling rushed.

...It's basically like a 'hobbyist', coming up against a competitive/tournament player.
1. The hobbyist freaks out, and hates the game now, and the other player.
2. The competitive player doesn't understand; Everything in their army, and everything they did, was perfectly legal (e.g; Why can't I wrap a unit of 30 Termagants from a Neurothrope, around two Objectives, and into your DZ, in a 45" line?). What's the problem? Did they accidentally insult their opponent at some point...They don't remember doing that. What even happened?

You say there are 4 weeks and 3 people for a book, right?

I'm saying that there is likely less than four weeks, and up to 3 people, but it's more likely two.

You've got years of design work to lift from, between ability names, past iterations, past interactions, tons of result that avid fans have already sifted and streamlined for you for free.

That's assuming that you don't work for GW, and your design goal isn't 'Burn everything from the past to the foundations.'

jump over to Lexicanum / Warhammer wiki were generous nerds already do your 'hard' work of data collation for you for free.

Nope. Gotta retcon all of that.

Also it wouldn't surprise me if one of those three people was an artist who's primary job is drawing the pictures.

Judging from the Space Marine stuff (why does it look so bad), I doubt it. The guy doing the artwork is an artist, and they're drawing full-time. They're not a Codex designer.

[LansXero]

Is commission painting his actual job?
Anyway, in my case, the reason people want their armies painted, is for a tournament, and usually they've left it 'til the very, very last possible minute to go shopping for a commission. Which means crunch time is much...Shorter...That it should be.

As I said, the biggest drain on my time, is my job - and my boss. It doesn't leave a lot of painting time, and usually quite a bit less than I may have quoted.

No, he works at a real state firm, tying up overly optimistic yuppies with apartments they cant afford for long. Social mobility is a trap in a country without economic stability. He got into it to pick up work for a guy that moved out and had already taken comission work, and realized it was a decent source of random income. He is very methodic though and keeps turning down jobs when he feels time crunch will stress him out. My point was, even in creative activities there is grindy work that has to stick to schedules and cares not for preferences or inclinations. Like our resident sculptor, he loves making Nurgle daemons and other grotesque monsters, because all he does is corporate work for firms and its all crisp corners and clean lines and it drives him mad. But it pays the bills, so he sucks it up and complys. He (and his team) were up for some sort of award I think, but didnt win.

Taking a hobby, and turning it into a commercial product is a fairly big uhhh...Culture...Shock. You hate Catan, but you have to sell it anyway. How can you sell a product that you don't even like/endorse? 'Cause you have to.

Ah, I dislike it, sure. But I do endorse it because while the game might not be my own personal preference, its a quality game for its target audience. Components, mechanics, etc. are solid. I wouldnt peddle garbage to customers, quick way to lose them. And I have to know a lot of stuff I dont personally like, for demos, recomendations, comparisons, etc. Because its my job and I have to, but also to trim away duds, overpriced junk, derivative dribble, etc. If store staff would ever only care or recommend things they personally use, that store would go under rather quick.

I think it's less of a culture thing, and more of a generational thing. A job, designed around a fun activity, should be fun, not a job.
A lot of people don't like doing what they don't want to do. Something people don't like, is feeling rushed.

That gets hammered out of you in school though. You need discipline in life or you end a useless drop out that starves in a ditch somewhere. Bills dont care about your feelings, neither do renters. And people who have succeeded enough to get to work on designing games for a publicly traded company should definitively know better. These arent some poor interns having to put away the pumpkin spice latte, these are adult people who've been doing this for years.

I'm saying that there is likely less than four weeks, and up to 3 people, but it's more likely two.

Yeah but still, its *iterative* design, not entirely from scratch. Every new release informs (or should) the one coming after it.

That's assuming that you don't work for GW, and your design goal isn't 'Burn everything from the past to the foundations.'

It isnt though. Eldar are still fast and fragile, hard to hit, and OP. Marines just got Doctrines back, they still have ATSKNF, Sisters are still tied up to 'bolter, flamer, melta', etc. Plenty of conceptual and mechanical work lingers in today's codices for it to have been scratched out. For the indecies and what they did, sure, thats monumental work. For 'a new flavor every month' codices like we've been getting? 2 people for 3 weeks is plenty.

Nope. Gotta retcon all of that.

Didnt BL get their act together and streamlined all of it? Or was that just a Horus Heresy thing? (and then FW went and ignored it anyways because of course)

[druid91]

Hmm. So got to play my Alpha Legion yesterday, their legion objectives combined with their abilities make some of the objectives fairly simple to grab. Like the ones that are just 'Get into your Opponents DZ' or 'Do something in your opponents DZ' ok, so you move faster units up there, then if you need any more you just pop renascent infiltration and drop them in next turn.

Also, the Mindveil is hilarious. Terminator Sorcerer with 18" Movement. And even with the worst possible roll, you only lose 2" of movement.

[JNAProductions]

Does anyone have experience with Rampart? (I know, technically not a 40k question, but I figure y'all are the most likely to know about it.)

[Renegade Paladin]

Does anyone have experience with Rampart? (I know, technically not a 40k question, but I figure y'all are the most likely to know about it.)

Yes, actually. I went in on a large pledge in their Kickstarter and used it for the first time in our annual Apocalypse game last month. It's well made and fits together fairly well as far as the walls go, but the second story platforms are a little awkward since all the connection points are on pillars so you can't really put them in corners.

The detail is great. None of it is specifically 40k themed, of course, but you can stick aquilas on there fairly easily.

Beware when buying magnets, though. They advertise that the slots will take 3/16" or 5mm, but 3/16" is snug in the pillars and 5mm is just slightly larger enough that it doesn't fit. I put it together for our game using the provided pins, and it took me something like 45 minutes to build a large cathedral; magnets are totally worth it as long as you're prepared to find American standard magnets or use a 5mm drill bit. (I had extreme difficulty finding 3/16"*3/16" magnets, which is why I found out 5mm doesn't quite fit by a few microns.)

Edit: This is how it looks unpainted when set up as a large building. https://www.facebook.com/gameknights...type=3&theater

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

Link doesn’t work alas.

[Renegade Paladin]

Link doesn’t work alas.

The album is public; there's no reason why it shouldn't. Hotlinking pictures to forums is a thing of the past these days with Photobucket changing its terms and Imgur cracking down, so I don't know what else to do.

[Artanis]

The link works fine for me.

[druid91]

Works for me as well. Though the building didn't look big at all until I realized the tank was a baneblade.

[Renegade Paladin]

Works for me as well. Though the building didn't look big at all until I realized the tank was a baneblade.

There are five Basilisks concealed in that cathedral. I'm overall very happy with it. I worked on it more today and hit upon the solution of just putting a 5*5mm magnet loose in the center of the pillar so that it can reorient to match the magnet in whatever wall I put up to it and it's working quite well. I just backed their second Kickstarter for the new Mechanicus-style terrain.

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

Well the link is working for me now, maybe it was my desktop? But it was just sending me to the Facebook page’s home page earlier. Anyhow, that’s a big cathedral footprint!

[Renegade Paladin]

Well the link is working for me now, maybe it was my desktop? But it was just sending me to the Facebook page’s home page earlier. Anyhow, that’s a big cathedral footprint!

It is, and that's not even all of it. I went in for a Total Tabletop level pledge, comprising three core sets and an apse thrown in, and had only about two thirds of it cut off the sprues when the game happened. If I have a complaint, it's that their molds have way too many injection points and they're too large; the pieces take a lot of trimming and some of the injection ports are right on detail.

And sweet holy Emperor, the final stretch goal is nuts. If they hit $300k they're going to throw in an autocannon Chimera analogue.

[Don Qui Ho Tep]

The terrain is looking great! One of my favorite aspects of the hobby when I was younger was scratch-building hills and things, but now that my time has become more and more valuable to me, I've come to really appreciate pre-made terrain.

That being said, I just picked up the Defiled Ruins for starting up a Warcry campaign and was wondering if there were ideas on a neutral enough color scheme to still work in 40K. I'm thinking a nice dirty grey with a green tinge that could either be industrial ooze or mold. Not sure what to do about the Sigmar statue - might just leave him as is!

[snowblizz]

The terrain is looking great! One of my favorite aspects of the hobby when I was younger was scratch-building hills and things, but now that my time has become more and more valuable to me, I've come to really appreciate pre-made terrain.

Obviously helped by huges strides in the terrian making part of the business. Had mdf cut buildings been a thing when Mordheim was in it's heyday? Booyah.

Are the new GW terrain sets still "limited edition" ie they only make a few and you have to buy all or lose out?

The inflation in GW tabletop terrain nicely conincided with my interest waneing. I was talking with a friend about it last weekend when he mentioned Lego releasings set in limied fashion and I thought it sounded exactly like GW at the time.