4th Ed Design Article: The Zombie

[Firstborn]

Well well well, yet another thing that helps convince me to not be bothered to buy 4th-edition, which is depressing considering how much I fell in love with 3rd-edition. Come on, half the cosmology stolen from Warcraft (Feywild coughEmeraldDreamcough)? Tiefling Warlocks as a core race and class? What were they drunk or something?

[Techonce]

This looks like an improvement to me. Hordes of zombies are earier to run if they are all the same. Who cares what the abse race is if there are 10 of tem attacking you. It's just fluff now.

As for saves being a target... That's pretty mcuh how I play now. I make casters roll d20 to set the DC for spells now and thiss will remain the same.

As for criticals... Maybe a stab to the heart won't overly damage a zombie, but if I hack a leg off at the knee, it will seriously slow it down.

Since there are not rules for specific body part damage, it is represented by damage to the overall system.

And for slam attacks. I always view them as general swipes with a body part, usually arms. I didn't think it needed to be spelled out. Does it really matter if it is the creatures, head, arm or legs?

[turkishproverb]

The term they're using is defenses. Spells and the like now get rolls to beat defenses, as opposed to the defender rolling saves. Like Star Wars Saga Edition uses. I haven't played it myself, but most people who have seem to like it.

And I'm not really concerned about the zombie template going away. Templates are a good idea in theory, but can be needlessly complicated in practice. It's basically an exercise in building a character of the right level, and then adding a whole other level of complication on top of that. Sure, it'd be a loss if lich or vampire templates went away, those are major villains you want some detail for. I can accept zombies just being an entry in the monster manual.

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Really? You've heard good things about the "DO away with any chance they have not to use a mini system" Saga edition?

Wow. I haven't had a chance to play it, but I've heard nothing but bad things about the dumbing down of t he system, and the obvious attempt to force minis on players.

[Person_Man]

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Really? You've heard good things about the "DO away with any chance they have not to use a mini system" Saga edition?

Wow. I haven't had a chance to play it, but I've heard nothing but bad things about the dumbing down of t he system, and the obvious attempt to force minis on players.

I've played Saga, and I like it a lot. It's basically just a streamlined d20 system with fewer obnoxious rules. Here's a good summary, if you're interested.

Also, I've found that its nearly impossible to play D&D without some sort of minis. Even when I played 1st ed 20 years ago we used graph paper and tiny chess pieces (from a magnetic portable set that folded up and fit in your pocket). Combat with measurements involved pretty much requires it. But there's never been a need to buy TSR/WotC sanctioned anything. You just need a map, proportionately sized figures, and maybe some terrain from the bin at the gaming store or from your Lego collection.

[SpikeFightwicky]

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Really? You've heard good things about the "DO away with any chance they have not to use a mini system" Saga edition?

Wow. I haven't had a chance to play it, but I've heard nothing but bad things about the dumbing down of t he system, and the obvious attempt to force minis on players.

I've also played Saga Edition, and I can say that I have many good things to say about it. My only real issue is with ninja Jedi deflecting the heck out of every projectile, but even that's not as bad as most D&D stuff. I also don't see how it 'pushes' minis onto players any more than D&D...

[Rex Blunder]

I haven't played it, but I'd say that the reactions I've heard have been 75% or more positive. About as good as the reaction to ToB. I'm surprised that TurkishProverb's had such a different experience.

[Yeril]

I like that Undead (Or atleast zombies) and maybe even constructs too are vulnerable to critical hits.

Cause in my head, Smashing a Lich's skull in with a warhammer, even with undead-ness its GOT to hurt more than a regular attack, and Im sure if you jammed your spear into that Iron golems gears or dented a vital joint with a morning star its going to be more than a regular attack, Maybe your sword slashed the G. cube juust right and easily tore it in half.

I don't like the generic zombies, I mean there is a difference between Elves and Bugbears dispite they are both medium humaniods.

[turkishproverb]

I've played Saga, and I like it a lot. It's basically just a streamlined d20 system with fewer obnoxious rules. Here's a good summary, if you're interested.

Also, I've found that its nearly impossible to play D&D without some sort of minis. Even when I played 1st ed 20 years ago we used graph paper and tiny chess pieces (from a magnetic portable set that folded up and fit in your pocket). Combat with measurements involved pretty much requires it. But there's never been a need to buy TSR/WotC sanctioned anything. You just need a map, proportionately sized figures, and maybe some terrain from the bin at the gaming store or from your Lego collection.

I've played for years and only really used minis for wide scale infantry combat or when the other players demanded it.

I've also played Saga Edition, and I can say that I have many good things to say about it. My only real issue is with ninja Jedi deflecting the heck out of every projectile, but even that's not as bad as most D&D stuff. I also don't see how it 'pushes' minis onto players any more than D&D...

D&D still (for the moment) has a measurement other than SQUARES.

Star wars does not.


Everything has a range/sight/move of X squares. This is a pain when figuring non-combat movment, nevermind the obvious mini-oriented comat issue...

Frankly, in comparison to that, the ninja jedi are enjoyable.

I haven't played it, but I'd say that the reactions I've heard have been 75% or more positive. About as good as the reaction to ToB. I'm surprised that TurkishProverb's had such a different experience.

75%? Who have you been playing around, Wizard reps?

Frankly, like i've said, I don't ahve a group right now, so i haven;t PLAYED it, but I've heard nothing good outside of you guys, wizard reps, and the occasional wizard fanboy. its been like 70% bad feedback coming towards me. 85% if you cut out the wizard reps and you guys.

[Jack Mann]

D&D still (for the moment) has a measurement other than SQUARES.

Star wars does not.


Everything has a range/sight/move of X squares. This is a pain when figuring non-combat movment, nevermind the obvious mini-oriented comat issue...

Frankly, in comparison to that, the ninja jedi are enjoyable.

Everything in 3rd edition D&D is, effectively, measured in squares. Every form of movement or measurement that matters in a game is measured in increments of five feet. No race has a speed of 33 feet. No spell has a radius of 19 feet plus 4 feet per level. D&D's been running on squares since 3.0 came out. If it bothers you, just translate in your head, every square is five feet. Six squares away? It's thirty feet. Nine squares? Forty-five. We're not looking at calculus, here.

[Starbuck_II]

Everything in 3rd edition D&D is, effectively, measured in squares. Every form of movement or measurement that matters in a game is measured in increments of five feet. No race has a speed of 33 feet. No spell has a radius of 19 feet plus 4 feet per level. D&D's been running on squares since 3.0 came out. If it bothers you, just translate in your head, every square is five feet. Six squares away? It's thirty feet. Nine squares? Forty-five. We're not looking at calculus, here.

What if you slow than decelerate(Psionic power) enemy? 30 x1/2 speed + X (the new number) x1/2 speed= 7.5 feet. So round down to 5 feet?
Neither slow nor Decelerate say they don't work in combo.

Edit: Slow rounds down to nearest 5 foot so 5 feet.

[Leliel]

If you want a zombie greenspawn zealot, you apply the zombie template to a greenspawn zealot. It isn't all that much paperwork next to, I don't know, everything else a DM has to do in any case to prepare for a campaign.

It is.

Alternatively, you can take the sample human zombie and describe it as a rotting anthropomorphic alligator in full plate.

Which would be hypocritical by your earlier suggestion.

Overall, I'm glad of this change. No more utterly pointless work on zombies for me!

[brian c]

What if you slow than decelerate(Psionic power) enemy? 30 x1/2 speed + X (the new number) x1/2 speed= 7.5 feet. So round down to 5 feet?
Neither slow nor Decelerate say they don't work in combo.

Edit: Slow rounds down to nearest 5 foot so 5 feet.

By the rules, you're supposed to round down to multiples of 5ft, but if you don't play with a grid or miniatures at all, then there's no one stopping you from saying "okay, your speed is 7.5 ft per round". It's just generally easier to keep track of everything when it's all nice round numbers.

[turkishproverb]

What if you slow than decelerate(Psionic power) enemy? 30 x1/2 speed + X (the new number) x1/2 speed= 7.5 feet. So round down to 5 feet?
Neither slow nor Decelerate say they don't work in combo.

Edit: Slow rounds down to nearest 5 foot so 5 feet.

That's happenbed several times in games i played in.

And "squares" kind've hurts the in-universe experience for an RPG.