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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    Default Re: Trans woman playing more TTRPGs can cis woman?

    I can see how what you were assigned at birth may be relevant, if you transitioned later in life. That doesn't mean that's true for all trans people, but people are treated by others based on what they were assigned at birth before they transition, so I can definitely imagine someone who was AMAB being encouraged (or at least not discouraged) from playing "boy" games, while someone who was AFAB being actively discouraged.
    Being the only female out of 4 kids, I can definitely attest to that kind of thing. I was activelly discouraged from playing MtG and WoW when they first came out, and didn't even question it enough to try them out until much, much later, when I realised most of that stuff is BS and what you liked has no basis on your gender (and vice-versa). And that's despite the fact that I was already a tomboy in pretty much every way.

    I think we'd need clear figures about it to know for sure, although I realise that studies that separate trans people from cis people can be transphobic. But the thing is, if we don't study this kind of thing, we could have huge blind spots that will end up hurting trans people. Studying things only along the lines of men and women erases not just nonbinary people, but also the fact that many trans people's experience won't be the same as their cis peers.

    When medicine started studying people of all races and not just white people, it was found out for instance, that black people are more susceptible to diabetes, and that they have a different bone density compared to white people. Had the studies only been split by gender and ignored race, that's something that could have been missed, and black people would be receiving inadequate care.

    I guess what I mean is that yes, trans women are women, trans men are men, but it could be significant that they were treated as a different gender for years, and studies that take trans status into account can allow us to determine those things.
    How they phrase it on the forms can be transphobic though, definitely.

  2. - Top - End - #32
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    Default Re: Trans woman playing more TTRPGs can cis woman?

    Quote Originally Posted by Unavenger View Post
    You're not the first person to note this, either. My guess is that it's a combination of two factors: one, as RPGs allow you to play a character who is - usually without argument - treated as whatever gender you, the player, decide they are, which is obviously appealing to trans people.
    Which absolutely does not describe my experiences even when I was in deep enough eggmode to consider myself male.

    Absolutely not. >.>

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    Quote Originally Posted by Max_Killjoy View Post
    A game setting does need to be designed to be fun and functional to game in.

    But there's more to good worldbuilding than piling the "parts to game in" on a big pile.

    Farmland isn't there to be adventured in, primarily, but one assumes it's still there and part of the landscape -- just because adventurers don't go there often doesn't mean it doesn't or shouldn't or needn't exist.

  3. - Top - End - #33
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    Default Re: Trans woman playing more TTRPGs can cis woman?

    {{Scrubbed}}
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  4. - Top - End - #34
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    Default Re: Trans woman playing more TTRPGs can cis woman?

    This isn't a medical condition thing. This is a societal thing. A trans woman is just as much a woman as someone born in the right body, when it comes to society and how they should be treated. Sure, a trans woman is at risk for prostate cancer while an AFAB woman is not, but that's absolutely no reason to treat her any differently, unless you happen to her oncologist.
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  5. - Top - End - #35
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    Default Re: Trans woman playing more TTRPGs can cis woman?

    The Mod on the Silver Mountain: Please keep conversation respectful towards trans people.
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  6. - Top - End - #36
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    Default Re: Trans woman playing more TTRPGs can cis woman?

    So, anyone else have any anecdotes or data to share? As mentioned earlier, my anecdotes matched the OP's.
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  7. - Top - End - #37
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    Default Re: Trans woman playing more TTRPGs can cis woman?

    Quote Originally Posted by TaiLiu View Post
    It seems strange to discount these accounts by arguing for AMAB/AFAB coherency.
    Similarly, though, it seems odd to discount the fact that some people do experience stereotyping based on their assignment-at-birth. In fact, Cox's experience seems to support, not refute, the fact that AMAB people are pushed away from traditionally feminine pursuits (and one can extrapolate that the converse may be true):

    "I was a very feminine child though I was assigned male at birth. My gender was constantly policed. I was told I acted like a girl and was bullied and shamed for that."
    "Patriarchy and cissexism punished my femininity and gender nonconformity."

    Cox's experience seems to match that of a lot of people in the RPG gamer community inasmuch as that she was shamed precisely for showing an interest in things outside her assignment at birth.

  8. - Top - End - #38
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    Default Re: Trans woman playing more TTRPGs can cis woman?

    Quote Originally Posted by Unavenger View Post
    Similarly, though, it seems odd to discount the fact that some people do experience stereotyping based on their assignment-at-birth. In fact, Cox's experience seems to support, not refute, the fact that AMAB people are pushed away from traditionally feminine pursuits (and one can extrapolate that the converse may be true):

    "I was a very feminine child though I was assigned male at birth. My gender was constantly policed. I was told I acted like a girl and was bullied and shamed for that."
    "Patriarchy and cissexism punished my femininity and gender nonconformity."

    Cox's experience seems to match that of a lot of people in the RPG gamer community inasmuch as that she was shamed precisely for showing an interest in things outside her assignment at birth.
    Which is why it can take a long time for some trans people to even realise what their gender actually is because they deliberately channel themselves into the gender they're assigned to at birth, and suppress anything to the contrary.

    But I think it's also why we're so constantly drawn to fantasy role-playing. A world in which anyone can be anything they want.

    Naturally the obsession with transformational concepts, the inexplicable glee at the possibility that a character might have their physical sex changed by being brought back with a reincarnation spell, or the sudden intrigue at the possibilities of certain girdles comes pretty immediately afterwards.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Max_Killjoy View Post
    A game setting does need to be designed to be fun and functional to game in.

    But there's more to good worldbuilding than piling the "parts to game in" on a big pile.

    Farmland isn't there to be adventured in, primarily, but one assumes it's still there and part of the landscape -- just because adventurers don't go there often doesn't mean it doesn't or shouldn't or needn't exist.

  9. - Top - End - #39
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    Default Re: Trans woman playing more TTRPGs can cis woman?

    Why my own experience with gaming was very cis, my ex is now part of a gaming group with his nonbinary significant other, and it seems that group is entirely LGBT (my ex is bi) and trans-heavy.

  10. - Top - End - #40
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    Default Re: Trans woman playing more TTRPGs can cis woman?

    Quote Originally Posted by AvatarVecna View Post
    In online games, when I'm aware of the player's genders at all, a woman is much more likely to be a trans woman than AFAB. IRL games, it's difficult to really be sure but I didn't get a trans vibe from any of the girls I played with. I've got a long-running online game with one AFAB and one trans woman (although a second trans women recently joined). The first trans woman actually discovered that part of herself along the way, and we used the game to help her explore that part of herself, and how she felt about being treated as a woman.
    A friend of mine who played a lot of MMOs told me he* almost always played female characters "because if I am going to have to look at my PC's rear end, I may as well enjoy what I see." After knowing him for several years, he came out as trans. It made me wonder if playing female PCs was her way of subconsciously being herself.

    * I use male pronouns here because at the time my friend told me this, she was still living as male.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lissou View Post
    In my own experience, almost everyone I played with was male (and cis), and the couple women I've played with (plus me) are all cis.
    You sure about that? I played in a gaming group for well over a decade, and as far as I know, none of them know I'm trans. You may have been playing with a transperson and just never knew it.
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  11. - Top - End - #41
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    Default Re: Trans woman playing more TTRPGs can cis woman?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kesnit View Post
    You sure about that? I played in a gaming group for well over a decade, and as far as I know, none of them know I'm trans. You may have been playing with a transperson and just never knew it.
    Certainly possible. This is where terms/experience/appearance can be confusing. (Surely some people are, or consider themselves cis, then later realise they are trans.) I've always played with people who I'm certain were cis, presented themselves as if they were cis, they have given no indication of anything different, and nothing has changed since that time. There is one exception, being my now sister who is trans, but at the time "he" gamed (as a almost teenager decades ago and not for long) I'm certain even he considered himself cis, not realising anything different until many years later. (Stopping gaming had nothing to do with cis/trans.) I have had two other cis women part of my group, though the majority of players have always been male.

  12. - Top - End - #42
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    Default Re: Trans woman playing more TTRPGs can cis woman?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kesnit View Post
    A friend of mine who played a lot of MMOs told me he* almost always played female characters "because if I am going to have to look at my PC's rear end, I may as well enjoy what I see." After knowing him for several years, he came out as trans. It made me wonder if playing female PCs was her way of subconsciously being herself.

    * I use male pronouns here because at the time my friend told me this, she was still living as male.
    That "I like to ogle the character I play" thing is extremely common. If all male players who said it were secretly trans, there would be ... a much higher percentage of transpeople than there actually is.

    And if all female writers of slashfic who say they write it because "one hot man is nice, two hot men are better", were secretly gay transmen, there'd be hardly any women left in some areas of the internet.

    So if that friend you are talking of is sexually attracted to women, then I am pretty sure that is really all there is to it.

  13. - Top - End - #43
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    Default Re: Trans woman playing more TTRPGs can cis woman?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tarmor View Post
    Certainly possible. This is where terms/experience/appearance can be confusing. (Surely some people are, or consider themselves cis, then later realise they are trans.) I've always played with people who I'm certain were cis, presented themselves as if they were cis, they have given no indication of anything different, and nothing has changed since that time. There is one exception, being my now sister who is trans, but at the time "he" gamed (as a almost teenager decades ago and not for long) I'm certain even he considered himself cis, not realising anything different until many years later. (Stopping gaming had nothing to do with cis/trans.) I have had two other cis women part of my group, though the majority of players have always been male.
    I was trans the entire time I was playing with that group. When I started with them, I'd been on hormones a little over 2 years. I played with them for several months before leaving for 3 years to go to school. After graduating, I came back and played with them for another 5 years before moving away for my job. (So I guess my math was off, I only knew them for 8 years, though we're still friends and it has now been over a decade since we met.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Themrys View Post
    That "I like to ogle the character I play" thing is extremely common. If all male players who said it were secretly trans, there would be ... a much higher percentage of transpeople than there actually is.
    I didn't mean to imply "any male player who plays female is actually a transwoman." (I play female characters in MMOs sometimes...) I only meant "I wonder if that was (insert friend's female name here) expressing herself before (dead name) could come out to herself."
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  14. - Top - End - #44
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    Default Re: Trans woman playing more TTRPGs can cis woman?

    Quote Originally Posted by Unavenger View Post
    Similarly, though, it seems odd to discount the fact that some people do experience stereotyping based on their assignment-at-birth.
    Perhaps I'm just tired - I am - but I'm not super clear on what this means. I understand the concept of experiencing stereotyping based on ethnicity, as I'm sure you do. "Black people are less intelligent than white people" is an incredibly racist stereotype that Black people face because they're Black. And I understand the concept of experiencing stereotyping based on gender. "Women should be in the kitchen and out of politics" is a vile sexist stereotype that women experience because of their womanhood. But what does it mean to experience stereotyping based on your AGAB?

    I think you might be saying something like, "Cis boys and trans girls are expected to act in similar ways." This does seem obvious, almost like common sense. Many people in this thread have made these kind of "common sense" assumptions, probably without even realizing it. But I would caution against assuming this, for this kind of common sense is connected to cissexism far more deeply than it is connected to reality. Sophia Burns has an article explaining the expectations foisted on her growing up. Those are not the expectations foisted on cis boys.
    Quote Originally Posted by Unavenger View Post
    In fact, Cox's experience seems to support, not refute, the fact that AMAB people are pushed away from traditionally feminine pursuits (and one can extrapolate that the converse may be true):

    "I was a very feminine child though I was assigned male at birth. My gender was constantly policed. I was told I acted like a girl and was bullied and shamed for that."
    "Patriarchy and cissexism punished my femininity and gender nonconformity."
    See Burns' essay for an argument against yours. But I'd also argue that you're unintentionally taking Cox's writing out of context. The thread's about her experiences growing up with a twin brother. Both of them were AMAB, but because she was a girl and her brother was a boy, they grew up totally differently. There was no coherent social AMAB experience for them to draw on. (Other than, I suppose, being pulled out of the womb and having a doctor declare them boys. But I don't think that's what any of us mean when we talk about AMAB/AFAB being or not being coherent social categories.)

    I'm ill-inclined to pull excerpts from the thread, but take again the sentence that you pulled out: "Patriarchy and cissexism punished my femininity and gender nonconformity," and look at the sentences surrounding it:
    Quote Originally Posted by Cox
    Class, race, sexuality, ability, immigration status, education all influence the ways in which we experience privilege so though I was assigned male at birth I would contend that I did not enjoy male privilege prior to my transition. Patriarchy and cissexism punished my femininity and gender nonconformity. The irony of my life is prior to transition I was called a girl and after I am often called a man.
    To me it sounds like she's experiencing bullying and transmisogyny. Furthermore, it seems like her experiences come from being a trans woman, not because she was assigned male at birth.
    Quote Originally Posted by Unavenger View Post
    Cox's experience seems to match that of a lot of people in the RPG gamer community inasmuch as that she was shamed precisely for showing an interest in things outside her assignment at birth.
    Let's say that a trans boy is indeed shamed for liking, say, video games. And let's say that the shamers say things like, "Girls shouldn't play video games cuz those are only for boys." It's coherent to argue that he was shamed because he was AFAB. That is to say, it's logically consistent and "makes sense" for that to be true. But coherency is not necessarily the same thing as truth. But it's also coherent to argue that he was shamed because he wasn't acting like he "should" - like a stereotypical girl. I'd argue that that's probably what's happening there instead.

  15. - Top - End - #45
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    Default Re: Trans woman playing more TTRPGs can cis woman?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kesnit View Post
    You sure about that? I played in a gaming group for well over a decade, and as far as I know, none of them know I'm trans. You may have been playing with a transperson and just never knew it.
    I guess it's not impossible, I mean, you can't tell by just looking at someone. Gender identity tends to come up in my groups though, so we've mentioned being cis (not to mention the ones I have been intimate with and the ones who are close enough friends I can't imagine how it could have never come up). But yes, I should preface that with "as far as I know", I guess.

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