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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    ElfRangerGuy

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    Jul 2014

    Default The Tempest PrC Rework [CA p.81] [PEACH]

    Tempest

    Hit Die
    d10.

    Requirements
    To qualify to become a tempest, a character must fulfill all the following criteria.

    Base Attack Bonus
    +5.

    Feats
    Dodge/Mobilty(see below), Spring Attack, Two-Weapon Fighting.


    Class Skills
    The tempestís class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Balance (Dex), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Jump (Str), Sleight of Hand (Dex), and Tumble (Dex).

    Skill Points at Each Level
    4 + Int modifier.

    Level BAB Fort Ref Will Special
    1st +1 +2 +2 +0 Eye of the Tempest, Superior Two-Weapon Fighting
    2nd +2 +3 +3 +0 Hurricane Charge, Tempest Offense
    3rd +3 +3 +3 +1 Combination Strike, Whirlwind Attack
    4th +4 +4 +4 +1 Battlefield Blitz, Tempest Assault
    5th +5 +4 +4 +1 Flexible Strikes, Tempest Fury

    Class Features
    All of the following are Class Features of the tempest prestige class.

    Weapon and Armor Proficiency
    Tempests gain no proficiency with any weapon or armor.

    Superior TWF (Ex):
    At 1st level you further reduce the penalties for TWF by 2. You longer receive penalties when your off-hand weapon is light and the penalties for a non-light off-hand weapon become -2/-2.

    Eye of the Tempest (Ex):
    At 1st level, when you enter combat you whip yourself into a frenzy. With each successful strike on an opponent you gain a +1 bonus to your attack roll. This bonus is cumulative, but decays by 1 in each round you do not land a successful strike. The decrease happens at the end of your turn. You can receive a maximum bonus equal to your class level.

    Hurricane Charge (Ex):
    At 2nd level, at the end of a charge you can attack with both weapons. Additionally, if you have accumulated a bonus from your Eye of the Tempest ability, you can give up 2 points of that bonus. In exchange you may take a full attack action at the end of the charge. All conditions, bonuses and penalties for charging apply normally.

    Tempest Offense (Ex):
    At 2nd level you add your full Strength bonus to damage rolls made for your off-hand weapon.

    Whirlwind Attack (Ex):
    At 3rd level, you receive the Whirlwind attack feat as a bonus feat. You need not meet the prerequisites.

    Combination Strike (Ex):
    At 3rd level you can setup devastating combination strikes with your dual weapons. Whenever you hit and successfully deal damage with both weapons, you can give up 1 point of your Eye of the Tempest bonus to impose an additional effect upon your opponent. The effect is based on the damage type of both weapons. Duration does not stack, it overlaps.

    Damage Type Effect
    Slashing-Slashing Bleed, damage equal to tempest level. Successive combination strikes on a bleeding target deepen the gash, increasing bleed damage by 1. Lasts until 10 rounds. Heal DC = 15+bleed damage. A magical effect that heals as much HP as the bleed damage also stops the bleed.
    Bludgeoning-Bludgeoning Staggered for 1 round.
    Piercing-Piercing All of the target's speeds are reduced by half (to a minimum of 5 feet). In addition, the target cannot take a 5-foot step. This effect lasts 1 round.
    Piercing-Slashing 1 Dex damage. On critical hit damage equal to the critical multiplier of the weapon which critically hit.
    Piercing-Bludgeoning 1 Con damage. On critical hit damage equal to the critical multiplier of the weapon which critically hit.
    Slashing-Bludgeoning 1 Str damage. On critical hit damage equal to the critical multiplier of the weapon which critically hit.

    Battlefield Blitz (Ex):
    At 4th level, if you have accumulated a bonus of from your Eye of the Tempest ability, you can give up 3 points of that bonus. In exchange you can move up to your speed as a swift action. This movement does not count towards your normal movement in a round, but it does provoke attacks of opportunity as normal.

    Tempest Assault (Ex):
    At 4th level, any time you perform more than on attack during an attack or full attack action, total the damage from all successful attacks on a given creature before applying that creature's damage reduction. When attacking objects total all damage before applying an object's hardness.

    Flexible Strikes (Ex):
    At 5th level, you know how to use your weapons to the maximum. You may make any combination strike with any type of weapon.

    Tempest Fury (Ex):
    At 5th level, if you strike an opponent multiple times during your turn, you also deal rend damage. You deal 1d6 damage for each successful strike. Determine the rend damage dealt immediately after you make your last attack for your turn. If you attack multiple opponents during your turn, you gain this extra damage against each of them. A creature takes rend damage based on the number of attacks that hit it, not the number of successful attacks you make. For example, if you hit a fire giant three times and an evil cleric twice during your turn, the fire giant takes rend damage for three attacks and the cleric takes rend damage for two attacks.




    Optional rules:
    1. Classify Dodge/Mobility as a feat tax. See here.
      - For my game specifically, I have a somewhat more elaborate system, where there is a small list of "feat tax" feats which can be acquired based on BAB progression, just as normal feats can be acquired through level progression. The list includes feats like Power attack, Precise shot, Dodge/Mobility(merged) and other similar build enablers. For every 3 BAB you get one of these.
      - Aditionally I would advise changing Spring Attack to allow for any standard action to be taken and eliminating Flyby Attack and its cousins. You might ask, "But what about casters?" - RAW casters are already the ones most likely to cover the requirement for Flyby attack anyway, leaving martials in the dust once again. And keep in mind the above mechanic. Spring attack has a prerequisite which actually favors martials here. So you are in essence helping martial characters a lot more than casters here.
    2. Rework the TWF feat line to be worth the feat slots:

      Two-Weapon Fighting

      You can fight with a weapon in each hand. You can make one extra attack each round with the second weapon.

      Prerequisites:
      Dex 15.

      Benefit:
      Your penalties on attack rolls for fighting with two weapons are reduced. The penalty for your primary hand lessens by 2 and the one for your off hand lessens by 6. See the Two-Weapon Fighting special attack.

      Additionally, at BAB+6 you can attack with both weapons as a standard action or at the end of a charge.
      At BAB+11 you may make Attacks of Opportunity with both weapons.

      Normal:
      If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon. When fighting in this way you suffer a -6 penalty with your regular attack or attacks with your primary hand and a -10 penalty to the attack with your off hand. If your off-hand weapon is light the penalties are reduced by 2 each. (An unarmed strike is always considered light.) You cannot make more than one attack as a standard action. You cannot make more than one attack when an enemy provokes an Attack of Opportunity.

      Improved Two-Weapon Fighting

      You are highly skilled at fighting with two weapons.

      Prerequisites:
      Dex 17, Two-Weapon Fighting, base attack bonus +6.

      Benefit:
      Your off-hand receives a iterative progression similar to your main hand.
      You gain a second off-hand attack. A third off-hand attack is gained when a base attack bonus reaches +11 or higher, and a fourth with a base attack bonus of +16 or higher.

      Normal:
      Without this feat, you can only get a single extra attack with an off-hand weapon.
    3. In my game additionally, any character can give up attacks to gain additional 5-ft steps. This works particularly well for TWFighters who receive a higher number of attacks.





    Misc notes:
    At the time of writing there was thread floating around the 3.5e forums about Fixing the Tempest. It was kind of fortuitous as I was about to use that class in a build for an upcoming boss battle in my game. So I was planning to rework it either way. That thread can be seen as the brainstorming part of the equation and here is the finished product.

    Design notes:
    This is a prestige class that is obviously focused on Two Weapon Fighting. TWF has classically had a ton of problems compared to its more viable cousin of 2H fighting. These include:
    * High building cost: Too many feats are required to make an effective TWFighter. There are more efficient ways to achieve the same effect (e.g. 2H combat).
    * Low damage output: It relies on getting off full attacks, which are difficult to set up. DR is significantly more effective against a large number of low-damage hits.
    * Low mobility: The necessity of setting up full attacks limits your mobility a lot.
    * Expensive: You have to pay for weapon enchantments for two weapons instead of one. These tend to be quite expensive and a primary money sink for a martial character.

    A good rework should address all of those, and present a fun, novel gameplay loop for the player. However in this case the issues are so broad and far reaching that they cannot easily be addressed by changing the class alone. And in fact they should not. Therefore the class comes with some highly advisable optional companion rules changes which address issues with TWF outside of the class itself. Let's move on to addressing each issue individually:

    * High building cost: See above. We make the TWF feat line actually worth its feat cost, and alleviate the feat taxes. This makes it possible to enter into the class at the cost of 1 "tax" slot and two feat slots, both of which are more broadly useful than mere feat taxes (at least if you took my advice about Spring attack above). Note: We can't require Imp. TWF, because that requires BAB+6 and our class requires BAB+5. Also no point, anyone who enters is likely to get it anyway (especially if reworked as above).
    * Too expensive: This one is easy. Merely overtune the class a little bit to compensate. E.g. a bit more saves here, a bit more skill points there.
    * Low damage output/mobility: These ones are somewhat tied together, given TWF's necessity in pulling off full attacks to create their value. The following more specific points should be addressed:
    • The class should have an easy way of both maneuvering the battlefield and consistently pulling off full attacks. Granting them Pounce in some manner addresses this.
    • Ideally the class should have some form of swift-action move ability, gated behind some resource.
    • It should have some ability to deal with Damage reduction, whose effectiveness scales with the number of attacks.
    • We also give it full strength to damage for off-hand attacks to help with damage. As a TWF specialist it shouldn't suffer the same drawbacks as other TWF schmucks.

    * The class should be fun to play: It should have some kind of signature ability or fun gimmick which gives the player something interesting to do or decide. In the thread linked above we brainstormed a bunch of options and I came up with the idea of the two weapons playing off each other, based on damage types. Another poster dropped the phrase "combat rhythm" which sounded particularly fitting to the theme of a "tempest in battle". That eventually became the "Eye of the Tempest" ability. Would have called it "Eye of the Storm", however that name was already taken by the Bloodstorm Blade ability in Tome of Battle. The ability was different initially, and started from reducing your TWF penalties, then giving you a bonus (see the thread above for an early draft). However it was complex and confusing, and failed a basic design tenet - KISS: "Keep it simple, stupid". Therefore it was split into Superior TWF, which simply did away with the penalties, and the new iteration of Eye of the Tempest which powers many of the Tempest's abilities (including his other signature trait - the combo attack).
    Altogether this gives a unique feel to the class and a ton of interesting decisions and combos the player can pull off.

    * I generally tend to include some TO potential in all of my design efforts, simply because I like the notion. Here that should be pretty obvious: The rend ability has no damage cap. If you were somehow able to acquire an ungodly number of attacks (e.g. if you somehow manage to fit 5 levels of tempest into a lightning maces build) you have the distinct opportunity to output absurd amounts of damage. Certainly enough to one-shot anything a ubercharger can.

    * Disclaimer: This has not been play-tested (outside of a short-lived boss battle on the DM side). It may require further tuning, and may not fit the balance of your particular table. If you do decide to include at your table, please return some feedback. I also welcome any general feedback and critique. A large reason I include design notes in all of my efforts is to make it easier to give feedback, knowing the intent behind a certain feature or decision.






    Changelog:
    v0.1 Initial version
    v0.2 Feedback:
    - Bleed does indeed seem a bit undertuned, therefore added 1 cumulative damage to the effect.
    - Changed the wording on the combo strike critical hit, because I seem to have confused myself how that worked originally. :)
    v0.3 Feedback2:
    - Forgot to add a bit to TWF.
    - Clarify bleed wording. Also limit to 10 rounds (rookie mistake).
    Last edited by martixy; 2019-12-20 at 12:22 AM.

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    OrcBarbarianGuy

    Join Date
    Jan 2017

    Default Re: The Tempest PrC Rework [CA p.81] [PEACH]

    Feedback: I'm not sure how the dual type combination attacks trigger. If I hit someone two times with the weapon in my left hand, then miss once with it, then hit two times with the weapon in my right hand, how many times does it proc? If I'm using two morningstars (which deal piercing and bludgeoning damage), do I inflict bleed damage, staggered, or Con damage? My choice, maybe?

    It seems to me that the slashing mode is somewhat undertuned; it's a lot more favorable to have "slashing & x" weapons and only use it once you only really want to inflict the 5 points of bleed damage once or twice a combat. Also, pure damage becomes less relevant once you hit 5, since you get rend. Maybe you have the option to increase existing bleed damage?


    Eye of the Tempest: "When you ... you recieve a +1 untyped bonus to attack rolls, or increase your existing bonus from this feature by 1, to a maximum of your Tempest level. At the end of a turn in which you didn't make an attack, reduce this bonus by 1. "

    You aren't wrong that it's a touch overtuned, but not by too much IMO.

    Whirlwind Attack at 3 is a tad awkward, since it doesn't function with TWF.
    Last edited by aimlessPolymath; 2019-12-13 at 03:21 PM.
    My one piece of homebrew: The Shaman. A Druid replacement with more powerlevel control.
    The bargain bin- malfunctioning, missing, and broken magic items.
    Spirit Barbarian: The Barbarian, with heavy elements from the Shaman. Complete up to level 17.
    The Priest: A cleric reword which ran out of steam. Still a fun prestige class suitable for E6.
    The Coward: Not every hero can fight.

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    ElfRangerGuy

    Join Date
    Jul 2014

    Default Re: The Tempest PrC Rework [CA p.81] [PEACH]

    Actual feedback. Sweet.

    Quote Originally Posted by aimlessPolymath View Post
    Feedback: I'm not sure how the dual type combination attacks trigger. If I hit someone two times with the weapon in my left hand, then miss once with it, then hit two times with the weapon in my right hand, how many times does it proc? If I'm using two morningstars (which deal piercing and bludgeoning damage), do I inflict bleed damage, staggered, or Con damage? My choice, maybe?
    This one is easy: You can't.
    You must make your attacks in BAB order, highest to lowest. So they are always in main/off-hand pairs.

    It would proc as many times as you hit with both weapons. And if it dealt multiple types of damage, well, you get to choose.

    Quote Originally Posted by aimlessPolymath View Post
    It seems to me that the slashing mode is somewhat undertuned; it's a lot more favorable to have "slashing & x" weapons and only use it once you only really want to inflict the 5 points of bleed damage once or twice a combat. Also, pure damage becomes less relevant once you hit 5, since you get rend. Maybe you have the option to increase existing bleed damage?
    Hm, perhaps I am a tad biased by my own game, where pure damage is quite valuable, since we use the Damage Conversion variant.
    I suppose increasing the damage by 1 for each successive combo on an already bleeding target might be nice.

    Quote Originally Posted by aimlessPolymath View Post
    Eye of the Tempest: "When you ... you recieve a +1 untyped bonus to attack rolls, or increase your existing bonus from this feature by 1, to a maximum of your Tempest level. At the end of a turn in which you didn't make an attack, reduce this bonus by 1. "

    You aren't wrong that it's a touch overtuned, but not by too much IMO.

    Whirlwind Attack at 3 is a tad awkward, since it doesn't function with TWF.
    Quite the point, though keep in mind that it is also used to power the class' abilities.
    On whirlwind: What it does fits with the theme, how it does it, well, that's fluff which is mutable.

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    OrcBarbarianGuy

    Join Date
    Jan 2017

    Default Re: The Tempest PrC Rework [CA p.81] [PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by martixy View Post
    Actual feedback. Sweet.



    This one is easy: You can't.
    You must make your attacks in BAB order, highest to lowest. So they are always in main/off-hand pairs.

    It would proc as many times as you hit with both weapons. And if it dealt multiple types of damage, well, you get to choose.
    I suppose I'm somewhat unsure on what the effect triggers on; for example if you went:
    hit with main hand/miss with off hand/hit with main hand/hit with off hand/miss with main hand/hit with off hand.
    Then there would be two main-hand hits followed by two off-hand hits.
    My one piece of homebrew: The Shaman. A Druid replacement with more powerlevel control.
    The bargain bin- malfunctioning, missing, and broken magic items.
    Spirit Barbarian: The Barbarian, with heavy elements from the Shaman. Complete up to level 17.
    The Priest: A cleric reword which ran out of steam. Still a fun prestige class suitable for E6.
    The Coward: Not every hero can fight.

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    ElfRangerGuy

    Join Date
    Jul 2014

    Default Re: The Tempest PrC Rework [CA p.81] [PEACH]

    Ah, well, the way I see it, the most reasonable way is - the first time you hit with both weapons you proc the effect. Then everything resets, and the next time you hit with both weapons again, you get another combo.

    So in your example there is one main/off sequence - last main and first off, so you get one combo effect.

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: The Tempest PrC Rework [CA p.81] [PEACH]

    I see you liked/adapted my combination mechanics, glad you liked them! I wrote a fairly thorough review of the class (didn't get to the feats yet), and tried to point out anything that I noticed, so I apologize if it seems excessively harsh, that was not the intent! Just trying to offer what suggestions I can to improve it, so I hope it's taken in the spirit it was intended! A few comments about the class, and then some specific comments on the class features.

    Besides the class features, there's a couple questions i'd have -- why require Dodge, Mobility, and Spring Attack? As far as I can tell, you never again use spring attack's features in the class, and the same for mobility -- sure, you give them effective pounce, but other than that there's no incentive for them to pinball between targets instead of running up to one, finishing it off, and then moving to the next one. These feats seem wasted, and not critical to the theme of the class. Furthermore, it locks people into a specific build -- I know for your game this is partially mitigated by 2 of those 3 feats, but even then those feats don't seem very relevant to the class abilities.

    Craft probably shouldn't be a class skill unless you have a good reason to add it, maybe replace it with Knowledge (Battle Tactics/Martial Lore/etc)? I could also see them gaining proficiency with light armor and simple/martial weapons. Is there a reason to not allow them to do that? The number of cases where that's relevant seem pretty small, and I can't think of how it would ever be abused, only positive outcomes.

    Class Features:
    Superior TWF -- Already a huge boost, sounds good.

    Eye of the Tempest -- Sounds like a bit of an unneccesarily complex mechanic. Why not simply give Tempest points on each hit, which do not add to attack bonus, and also not have them decay? Decay doesn't seem to serve much function besides perhaps preventing you from carrying points between battle at the cost of additional bookkeeping, which could easily be changed to "You lose any unspent tempest points at the end of combat." The increasing attack bonus on every hit also sounds a little complex, especially given that they should be hitting most of their hits thanks to superior TWF already. Why do they need to hit even more? Also, it's a bit of a "win more" mechanic, where an easy fight gets easier but a hard fight gets harder, since they're deprived of a good portion of their class features if faced against a big enemy. Wouldn't every miss be a better mechanic, to represent them adjusting their aim over time?

    Hurricane Charge -- Pounce. I'd expect most high op warriors to have this by now, and most low op warriors to find this is a gigantic spike in power. So I'm not sure how I feel about it, but it's probably fine.

    Combination Strikes -- You should note how many times this can be activated every round and per set of attacks. If I hit once with a warhammer and once with a dagger, can I spent 5 tempest points to burn 5 of their constitution? If I hit twice with a warhammer and once with a dagger, how many can I use? Twice with both? Personally, I think allowing them to dump a bunch of points into it is probably fine, up to perhaps a limit of their half their level round up per pair of strikes? If you gain say, 4 tempest points per round, then you have enough constitution damage after 3 rounds of attacking to put down a lot of people in conjunction with your damage, but that's also 3 rounds of being engaged in melee, where most fights probably last 3-4 rounds, so I think dealing 12 con damage at level 10 (?5/Tempest5) at the cost of all your other tempest-powered class features and needing to hit 6 attacks is probably okay. You need to also consider how critfisher builds would modify this.

    Bleeding is also very problematic as written. You need to clarify what "damage dealt" means -- is this the initial attack? The damage per round? The cumulative damage dealt so far? Also, it is a death sentence for anyone who can't access healing in the next, say, 20 rounds. For example, if you are fighting someone in a forest, and hit them once, you can run away for 100 rounds so they take 500 bleed damage, then die. I think there should be some sort of limit like 10 rounds, which still does a great 50 damage, while also not making it any weaker in a standard fight which probably lasts 3-4 rounds, meaning the limit won't handicap you.

    Battlefield Blitz -- Fine.

    Tempest Assault -- Fine.

    Flexible Strikes -- Of course I like it, I wrote it

    ------------------------------------------
    Overall, it seems interesting. It's very aggressively focused, with practically no defensive abilities whatsoever (Battlefield Blitz is a "kinda"). I would consider adding a "Wall of Blades" type ability, or something to distinguish it as a more finesse class than an ubercharger. As written, it functions very similarly to an ubercharger (Charge with Hurricane Charge, build up a few points, begin pounce/con damage/stagger routine), albeit with a "charge-up" round to get your first few tempest points and a few extra tricks.

    A few sample builds/tricks for you to compare this to to maybe help gauge how strong it should be.
    Fighter 5/Tempest 5/Fighter 5
    Tiger Claw Warblade 5/Tempest 5/Warblade 5 (Difficult in most games that are not yours due to feat reqs)
    Fighter 5/Tempest 5/Warblade 5
    Barbarian 15 with powerattack and pounce.

    If they have the lightning maces feat and keen aptitude kukri then your eye of the tempest is going to get out of hand really fast, especially with pearl of black doubt stance. If this is the case then the speed at which they can burn tempest points on the combination strikes is going to critical to the balance level.
    My Homebrew:
    WIP
    The Fortunar Base Class: A Fortuneteller wielding a minor Deck of Many Things. Mid T3.

    Completed Classes
    The Grandmaster : A master of animated stattuettes and tactical magic. High tier 3.
    The Hidden Word: An infiltrator with a wide range of abilities that works best in small teams. Tier 2-3
    Web-Spinner: A martial class based around using webs. Mid T3.
    The True Warrior: A swift mundane martial combat class that can dodge and slice their way to victory. Low Tier 3.

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    ElfRangerGuy

    Join Date
    Jul 2014

    Default Re: The Tempest PrC Rework [CA p.81] [PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Demidos View Post
    ~snikt~
    Cool. Appreciate the thoroughness. Let's go thru everything here.

    Dodge/Mobility/Spring: Certainly, the class itself does not incentivize their use specifically. I simply kept the requirements for the original class, but that does bring up another design avenue for the class - some ability which actually does incentivize their use. I don't have anything off the top of my head however.

    Craft - again, I blatantly copied the rules text from the book. I hadn't thought of looking at it. Martial Lore fits thematically. However given its limited scope it's useless outside of ToB-heavy games. Unless you expand its function. Which I do in my game (mentioning this off-hand in case anyone wants to steal the idea), where you can assess BAB with it, you can figure out how many points of PA or combat expertise someone has used or what kind of combat feats they possess.

    Proficiencies - As far as I can tell it's a design tenet of PrC that they generally do not offer any new proficiencies, unless required for the functioning of the class. Later 3.5 books even omit that clause entirely for most PrCs.

    Onto class features:
    Superior TWF -- Something I didn't mention is that I also really wanted a highly dippable way to get rid of TWF penalties.

    Eye of the Tempest -- The decay was a thematic choice based on the fluff of the class. I.e. while in the thick of battle you're a whirling tempest of blades, but you lose that tempo quickly. It's there to represent that tempo. And also serve as the class' "resource". In that sense "win more" fits better IMO. Also, yes and no. Easy fights do get easier, but we don't care about that, let the player have their fun hacking and slashing. But hard fights get easier too, not harder. With the amount of attacks TWF gets, you should be able land enough to get your bonus up. There's always nat20s too. And I know the math on this particularly well, as my own game operates right on the edge of the dice, so to speak.

    Hurricane Charge -- Funnily - no. I mean, here's the deal: Pounce is of very limited use before level 6 (or 5 if you have a friendly caster with Haste). Due to the way leveling works, level 6 is the earliest time you can get this class. The same time you get your second iterative attack. At best it delays your ability to pounce by one level. Although now that I think about, I realize the wording of TWF is a bit off - the intention for BAB+6 was most times you get to make one attack, you can now attack with both weapons - including the end of a charge, which isn't a standard action. So anyway, with that clarification, I think few would choose to waste a level to dip pounce just to get it 1 level earlier, given that TWF already gives you a budget-pounce anyway.

    Combination Strikes -- I won't lie, that's a weird interpretation. I'm not sure if you just wanted to bring up the idea, or you think it is genuinely that easy to misinterpret. In any case - no you can't spend more than 1 point. But... if we were to explore that idea. Going so far as to say half their level is pointless, given it can only be 1 or 2 (disregarding Legacy Champion shenanigans). I'd put it at level 5 probably, as kind of a capstone thing. Staggered can turn to Dazed and Hampered to Immobilized (borrowed from Tome of Magic) and the rest are numerical penalties on which regular math works.

    TBH I find it rather strange how controversial this ability is. I'm not sure how to make the wording both clear and concise. Generally rules text tends to be deliberately concise. Which is half the reason these boards still exist and are so active.

    On bleed - good point, wording could be better. And 10 rounds is also reasonable.

    Flexible Strikes -- I reworded it btw, if you didn't see. Wasn't comfortable granting actual damage type change.



    Now, the general idea indeed was to make it aggressively focused, a distinct change from the original class, and I have no intention of changing that. Frankly, I'm fine with its function as a TWF ubercharger.

    Lastly, crit-fishers are one of my favourite builds and I'm especially aware of how they work. They are also distinctly TO given the infinite loop. I also do not consider disciple of dispater as a legal option for crit-fishers, limiting them to 15-20, or at best 13-20 with some extremely heavy investment (which also mathematically eliminates the infinite loop). So in that sense this class is a definite nod to the aptitude kukri lightning maces TWF crit-fisher. Having played a bunch of those I also know how hard it is to get the ball rolling on them and how swingy in real battle the build is, and the tempest would provide some consistency.
    Last edited by martixy; 2019-12-20 at 12:25 AM.

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