The LA-assignment thread VIII: Way Too Much For Vampirism

[zlefin]

How does an extra standard action interact with full round actions? Does a full round action preclude taking the extra standard action or not?
I'm just not sure on that and I can't find anything online, and reading the rules text on actions isn't clarifying; and it could affect how to rate the rager.

[Efrate]

After reading my cooy of fiend folio Rager gets an extra move or attack action. Am I missing something whereas that is considered a standard? If it can do 2 standards and a move every round I might bump it to +1, but if it's an extra just attack ie like haste is, it's a +0.

[danielxcutter]

After reading my cooy of fiend folio Rager gets an extra move or attack action. Am I missing something whereas that is considered a standard? If it can do 2 standards and a move every round I might bump it to +1, but if it's an extra just attack ie like haste is, it's a +0.

Extra move alone is quite good because it's basically Pounce but better. Which stacks with actual Pounce and presumably Haste as well. Incidentally, was 3.0e Haste an extra standard action?

[liquidformat]

Extra move alone is quite good because it's basically Pounce but better. Which stacks with actual Pounce and presumably Haste as well. Incidentally, was 3.0e Haste an extra standard action?

I believe this is just 3.0 Haste though will have to check when I get home, considering you are a ECL 8 focused around being a barbarian I am on the fence what it should be rated. You have wings, Immunity to Mind-Affecting Effects, perm haste, and better ability scores you are clearly better than a standard barbarian and don't have to spend resources to fill these gaps. This is clearly better than a barbarian and I think it just barely exceeds the +1 benchmark. I will go with +3/+0/+1

Lesser varrangoin....

I am not seeing any of this in Realms help will have to take a look at my book when I get home.

What book are we doing next? I vote the templates from DMGII because they are cool and there aren't a lot of them!

[PoeticallyPsyco]

I actually worry that +3 is too low for the Arcanist. Flight, quite a few natural weapons, flat out (and toggleable) immunity to 4th level spells and below, all on a chassis that likely still has significantly higher BAB, HP, and saves than an equivalent caster even after the LA... that's gotta be worth more than two levels! It seems reasonable to compare the chassis and physical improvements to two levels of Warshaper (which is good enough to often be considered a net zero even on a full caster) or perhaps two levels of Totemist (likewise typically considered a worthwhile dip); would you then take a single level of a prestige class that didn't advance casting but gave you permanent flight and toggleable immunity to spells of <5th level?

+4, though I'm open to arguments that I'm overvaluing this. Note that this still gets them 9th level spells.

[Debatra]

I actually worry that +3 is too low for the Arcanist. Flight, quite a few natural weapons, flat out (and toggleable) immunity to 4th level spells and below, all on a chassis that likely still has significantly higher BAB, HP, and saves than an equivalent caster even after the LA... that's gotta be worth more than two levels! It seems reasonable to compare the chassis and physical improvements to two levels of Warshaper (which is good enough to often be considered a net zero even on a full caster) or perhaps two levels of Totemist (likewise typically considered a worthwhile dip); would you then take a single level of a prestige class that didn't advance casting but gave you permanent flight and toggleable immunity to spells of <5th level?

+4, though I'm open to arguments that I'm overvaluing this. Note that this still gets them 9th level spells.

While I'm not entirely against +4, I feel the need to point out that the immunity is to 3rd-level and below, not 4th. That alone probably isn't enough to change anyone's rating either way, but it's a thing to be aware of.

That said, natural weapons on a wizard are barely worth mentioning (except maybe the tail since that has Dex poison). It gives them something to do when they don't want to cast, but so does a crossbow. You shouldn't be in melee as a primary caster anyway.

As for BAB, an Arcanist Varrangoin 8/LA 3/Wizard 9 only has 12 vs a Wizard 20's 10. That's not "significantly higher". The HP and saves most likely will be though, between D10s and having good Fortitude and Reflex for that first "half" of its career.

For now, I'll go +3/+0/+1, though I'm open to higher for the Arcanist.

[liquidformat]

I actually worry that +3 is too low for the Arcanist. Flight, quite a few natural weapons, flat out (and toggleable) immunity to 4th level spells and below, all on a chassis that likely still has significantly higher BAB, HP, and saves than an equivalent caster even after the LA... that's gotta be worth more than two levels! It seems reasonable to compare the chassis and physical improvements to two levels of Warshaper (which is good enough to often be considered a net zero even on a full caster) or perhaps two levels of Totemist (likewise typically considered a worthwhile dip); would you then take a single level of a prestige class that didn't advance casting but gave you permanent flight and toggleable immunity to spells of <5th level?

+4, though I'm open to arguments that I'm overvaluing this. Note that this still gets them 9th level spells.

Polymorph is already on the table at level 8, and druids can already stay in wild shape form all day so I am comfortable with ignoring the ability scores and flying at this level. It is worth noting though at +3 and +4 Arcanist still has access to 9s. The fact that Arcanist has spell casting 1 level higher than rhd already puts it at +1, Magical Beast RHD bumps it up another +1, and immunity to spells another +1. So I am comfortable with +3 that is already putting the Arcanist a decent amount behind the rest of the party and it will have to take a wizard dip before PRCing.

On the downside of Arcanist there are a couple, first off you have bad will save, secondly I question whether your casting stat is Cha or Int since it isn't explicitly stated. If it is defaulted to cha then that is a real kick in the pants. Is there any RAW source that states this should be INT or talks about casting stat?

[Debatra]

On the downside of Arcanist there are a couple, first off you have bad will save, secondly I question whether your casting stat is Cha or Int since it isn't explicitly stated. If it is defaulted to cha then that is a real kick in the pants. Is there any RAW source that states this should be INT or talks about casting stat?

Appears to be Cha (or maybe Wis since it's the same bonus, but most likely Cha) for its SLAs; but the spellcasting says "as a 9th-level wizard", which means Int unless specified.

Polymorph is already on the table at level 8, and druids can already stay in wild shape form all day so I am comfortable with ignoring the ability scores and flying at this level.

Main reason I didn't mention this is that their natural flight and stats can't be dispelled and they don't have to use those mid-level spell slots to get them. Plus, we generally don't use "a wizard can polymorph into this" as a reason to reduce LA on caster-friendly creatures. A level 20 Human Wizard Shapechanged into a monster is almost always going to be better than that creature purely because it has twenty levels of Wizard instead of RHD and LA.

[ExLibrisMortis]

After reading my cooy of fiend folio Rager gets an extra move or attack action. Am I missing something whereas that is considered a standard? If it can do 2 standards and a move every round I might bump it to +1, but if it's an extra just attack ie like haste is, it's a +0.

Good point, I missed that. An extra attack action is pretty sad... can't even use a strike, let alone cast a spell. The move action is probably the better choice, then.

[Falontani]

I would prefer my wizard have good fort saves and ref saves than will saves, because nearly all the caster prestige classes still give good will saves, and usually when a creature is casting arcane spells, the impression is that it will have at least decent will saves, so they start throwing fort saves at the wizard, which are usually just save or suck.
I can easily see this guy going rhd 8/wizard 1/abjurant champion 5/Eldritch Knight +.
With la +3 he'll have 16 bab, 9tha, better stats, nonmagical flight, immunities, and probably more health. With la +4 it becomes nearly impossible to hit 16 bab and 9ths, forcing you to choose.

[Debatra]

Also worth noting that the Arcanist's 1/day "Polymorph Other" got errata'd to Baleful Polymorph.

[liquidformat]

Main reason I didn't mention this is that their natural flight and stats can't be dispelled and they don't have to use those mid-level spell slots to get them. Plus, we generally don't use "a wizard can polymorph into this" as a reason to reduce LA on caster-friendly creatures. A level 20 Human Wizard Shapechanged into a monster is almost always going to be better than that creature purely because it has twenty levels of Wizard instead of RHD and LA.

I disagree we do use "a wizard can polymorph/Druid can wild shape" as a reference point all the time in this thread we just don't explicitly state it. That is why this thread under values ability scores and movement modes as RHD increases because they can be made up for by WBL/spells/class features and therefore become less valuable with ECL. But it is a fair point that a Arcanist can't be dispelled of his flight/ability scores. Still I don't think that is enough to push this into +4 when you are starting play at ECL 11 or 12.

[Remuko]

Page 50, time to pack it up and go home.

Also unless I see a better argument for the Arcanist I'm voting +2 (and +0 for the other two) atm.

[Thurbane]

Changing my vote from +3/+0/+0 to +3/+0/+1.

The discussion around the Rager's extra action has persuaded me. Even a restrictive reading means, at the very least, an extra attack on a full attack, or an extra move action every round (much like always on Travel Devotion).

As for the Arcanist, at ECL 11, it can still get 9ths by 20. I feel it gets enough to warrant a +3.

The lesser isn't exactly great, but flight, DR, +6 natural AC, natural weapons, poison and decent physical ability mods make me happy to assign a +0. The breath weapon isn't great, but can be used with metabreath feats etc.

[ExLibrisMortis]

The discussion around the Rager's extra action has persuaded me. Even a restrictive reading means, at the very least, an extra attack on a full attack, or an extra move action every round (much like always on Travel Devotion).

Not to argue with your rating, but it's not an extra attack on a full attack. It's a separate attack action. That means you're not benefiting from, say, charge bonuses on a pounce, but it can be a separate attack before or after moving. I'm thinking it's usually more versatile and slightly better than a bonus attack on a full attack, but there are definitely cases where you'd rather have the extra attack (e.g. überchargers who aren't achieving a kill with their normal attacks).


The move action can be used to regain psionic focus, which is useful for heavy users of metapsionics... shame about the 8 HD spent on not being a psionic character. There's no rapid-progression manifester, so you're pretty much always going to be stuck with sub-par powers. Not to mention that a Dominant Ideal ardent does it better, and that's at ECL 10.

[Thurbane]

Question about the Arcanist: my reading of immunity to spells looks like it only applies to spells that allow SR?

[No brains]

Regarding the 'attack action', wasn't that updated to a standard action in the 3.5 shift? I recall something similar happening in regards to the zombie's 'partial' action or 'attack action'.

Also seeing so much support for my thread name has all kinds of sappy movie soundtracks playing in my head. I would enjoy I Have No Mouth and I Must (S, V, M) more, but I would accept the normal order. Changing it to SVM is a silly joke, but every thread subtitle is a silly joke.

[Debatra]

It doesn't say that it only applies to spells that allow SR; only that it works as if the CL check had failed. It looks like a personal Lesser "Globe" of Invulnerability.

[Inevitability]

Arcanist LAs:
+2: 1 vote
+3: 5 votes
+4: 1 vote


Lesser LAs:
+0: 6 votes


Rager LAs:
+0: 3 votes
+1: 3 votes

Arcanist remains at +3, lesser remains at +0, rager also remains at +0 when counting my tiebreaker vote. The total number of votes differs per monster because one person only voted for the arcanist.

Next monster will be posted in the next thread, please don't post in this one any more!

[Inevitability]

New thread! Don't post any more in this one, please!