The LA-assignment thread VIII: Way Too Much For Vampirism

[Caelestion]

Pathfinder gave all undead Cha to hp, rather than Con. If Necropolitans want to abuse that, well, that's their business.

[Inevitability]

Someone used a Maelephant in one of the VCs.

They sound like a very cool and creative person. :P

Also the evil elephant will be up soon, thank you for your patience in those difficult times.

[Inevitability]

Maelephant

By far not the worst pun-based monster out there!

Maelephants are LE outsiders with only eight HD. Ability scores are good overall: +12 strength, +8 wisdom, +6 constitution, +4 intelligence and charisma. Outsider traits are moderately nice, DR 10/magic is meh, +11 natural armor is good. Natural weapons are two 1d6 claws and a 2d6 trunk-spike, which I suppose is another attack to add to the routine.

They get an arrangement of moderately impressive special qualities. Scent, Improved Grab, and Fast Healing 2 require no explanation. Keen Senses gives the malephant long-range darkvision (note that, despite being a LE outsider, this is not a devil and does not get See In Darkness), and Frenzied Charge lets one charge per minute go slightly further and hit slightly more accurately. Defensive Stance is... not great, but I suppose it has its occasional uses.

Finally, the main abilities, starting with the breath weapon. For those unfamiliar, it's a small cone that forces a Fortitude save, and upon a failed save suppresses someone's class abilities, memories, skill ranks, feats, and knowledge of who its friends and enemies even are. It's technically not a poison (although the effect is cured by spells that remove poisons), it's permanent until negated, it can be used three times per day, and it works with all the regular breath weapon enhancers. This means that any foe that's not by its very nature compelled to fight you can be essentially removed from the battle, unless they got a divine caster nearby (hint: aim at the divine caster).

Finally, SLAs. At-will Alarm has some fun potential uses, Entangle is still reasonably good at those levels, Gust of Wind is okay, Light is meh, True Seeing is incredibly good, and Warp Wood is mostly weird to see here. The 3/day abilities are Blade Barrier and Polymorph, so those are pretty neat too.

I feel like +1 or +2 is just fine for the maelephant: it has outsider RHD, good stats, unique abilities, reasonable SLAs and the ability to enter a number of fiend-based PrCs. For now I'll go with +2: as long as you don't mindwipe the entire campaign world that should be fine.

[Thurbane]

...as long as you don't mindwipe the entire campaign world that should be fine.

Amnesia: 1 2 Winner of the first VC round I chaired! Also a creation of our very own Dire_Stirge Inevitability.

I really like Maelephants as a DM, and will do a detailed breakdown in a bit.

[ExLibrisMortis]

It does look a bit like a generic hulk with an elephant head collaged in. How does the head connect to the body?

I suppose +2 will do, although I'm unsure how much I'm being influenced by the abject horror of that breath weapon.

[Efrate]

I'll agree at +2. It's a lot of really good stuff and you can destroy campaigns, nations, or worlds with that breath weapon.

[Thurbane]

Maelephant

• Large outsider (evil, extraplanar, lawful); no reach - which is pretty stupid considering they are a large humanoid-shaped being (seriously - 9 feet tall, and look at the length of those arms!).
• 8 RHD of the equally best kind (full BAB, all good saves, 8 skill points/level, MWP).
• +11 natural AC: decent.
• 2 claws 1d6 and trunk spike 2d6: trunk spike can be a secondary attack when wielding weapons.
• Breath weapon: 3/day area effect save or suck/lose. Nice.
• Frenzied charge: 1/minute boost to speed and +2 on attack rolls. Presumably this is a free action to activate? If so, not a bad little boost.
• Improved grab: not bad if you want to be a grappler, but you are probably better off just wielding weapons.
• SLAs: at will - alarm, entangle, gust of wind, light, true seeing, warp wood; 3/day blade barrier, polymorph. Not a bad mixed bag, espcially at will true seeing! Your party will love that.
• Defensive stance: mostly hot garbage, for the same reason that Dwarven Defender sucks.
• DR 10/magic: will still be relevant against non-weapon using beatstick encounters.
• Fast healing 2: I loves me some fast healing, even if the number is small.
• Keen senses, scent: very solid senses.
• Outsider traits: meh.
• SR 17: not terrible, but quickly starts to lose relevance.
• Str +12, Con +6, Int +4, Wis +8, Cha +4: net +34, no penalties. Nice.
• OK-ish racial skill list: a lot of perception related skills, plus a smattering of others, including Concentration - which is always nice if you have SLAs. With a lot of racial skill points and an Int boost, you may want to buy some cross-class ranks, or take feats that expand your skill selection.

Humanoid(ish) in form, and can speak. Should be able to wield tools/weapons. These guys could make decent initiators or, dare I say, Ur-Priests (that boost to Wis is nice). Also a decent candidate for the "Fiend of X" PrCs.

I'd love for these to be readily playable, but I can't quite go as low as LA +1. I'll vote LA +2, along with the others.

Keen Senses gives the malephant long-range darkvision (note that, despite being a LE outsider, this is not a devil and does not get See In Darkness)...

Oddly enough, the appendix in FC2 does list the Maelephant as a type of devil. Not sure if this automatically lets them see though magical darkness though.

It should, however, qualify it for the Brand of the Nine Hells and the "Mark of X" feats. Some of those are fairly tasty.

[Caelestion]

Those stats alone are pretty tanky and the chassis is excellent, of course. I'll stick with LA: +2 as well.

[danielxcutter]

“Devils” and “Baatezu” are not exactly identical. Zargon probably counts as a devil, but he predates the Baatezu by a considerable margin I believe.

[Thurbane]

Oddly enough, the appendix in FC2 does list the Maelephant as a type of devil. Not sure if this automatically lets them see though magical darkness though.

“Devils” and “Baatezu” are not exactly identical. Zargon probably counts as a devil, but he predates the Baatezu by a considerable margin I believe.

I just double checked, and you are completely correct: being a Devil doesn't automatically get you the ability. Certain devils, such as Chain Devils and Imps for instance, don't get it.

Devil Traits
Most devils possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry).

See in Darkness (Su): Some devils can see perfectly in darkness of any kind, even that created by a deeper darkness spell.

[ZamielVanWeber]

+2 for me. The no reach is annoying as heck and utterly bizarre but you have a pile of useful SLAs, great stats and RHD, that nasty breath weapon, and a pile of random other side benefits.

[liquidformat]

I am ok with +2 LA for these.

[lord_khaine]

I can easily see one of these smearing a level a level 11 Warblade into a thin paste if they themselves have a single class level.
So my vote is LA +3.

[Sutr]

Blade barrier being a 6 level spell makes me think this could be a +3, but that makes the caster level it has punitive. True seeing at will as a 5th level spell puts it easily in the tenth level range. It has a weird list of lower level options only made ok by its at will nature. If we count the breath weapon as a spell, I think this looks like about a tenth level cleric with a good prestige class. Especially as mentioned it not having reach. Strong +2. With that breath weapon wondering why this thing doesn't have bluff as a class skill.

[danielxcutter]

Blade barrier being a 6 level spell makes me think this could be a +3, but that makes the caster level it has punitive. True seeing at will as a 5th level spell puts it easily in the tenth level range. It has a weird list of lower level options only made ok by its at will nature. If we count the breath weapon as a spell, I think this looks like about a tenth level cleric with a good prestige class. Especially as mentioned it not having reach. Strong +2. With that breath weapon wondering why this thing doesn't have bluff as a class skill.

A cleric? Clerics have Heal, Greater Dispel, Superior Resistance, Harm, and Word of Recall at this level; I wouldn’t say that.

[Debatra]

Definitely not as good as a tenth-level Cleric, no. But still a solid +2. Maybe a strong +1, but this is one of the few times I'll err on the side of higher LA.

[danielxcutter]

Definitely not as good as a tenth-level Cleric, no. But still a solid +2. Maybe a strong +1, but this is one of the few times I'll err on the side of higher LA.

Oh, that’s fair. It’s just that Cleric is really good.

Also how does this measure to... Duskblade doesn’t really work since high level Duskblades do ridiculous damage, but Suel Arcanamach might work? What about Psychic Warrior or Bard?

[Inevitability]

Maug

Good for more than Incarnate Construct shenanigans!

Maugs are 2 RHD constructs with an amazing chassis: all the good immunities, Large size, +10 strength, +4 dexterity, and surprisingly even +2 to intelligence and charisma. They also have +7 natural armor, which can explicitly be combined with regular armor. Also, being a Large construct actually yields quite a few bonus HP.

Furthermore, maugs have a couple notable special abilities. Rapid Repair lets them heal 1-2 HP every hour, which is useful for getting you through the day until you get some expendable wands of Repair Light Damage (Lesser Vigor sadly doesn't work on nonliving targets).

Maugs can also Pulverize something 3/day, which lets them ignore an object's hardness entirely for a few rounds. It's no Mountain Hammer, but it'll do.

Finally, Maugs get free Alertness (useful for... entering Maquar Crusader? I got nothing), and apparently get 2000 GP worth of Maug Grafts for free. The last one means that you get a free Locking Hand (bonuses when trying to hold onto stuff), Shoving Arm (would you like to make Slightly Better Bullrushes at the cost of your attack action), or Stone Spitter (a worse built-in sling that can occasionally launch enchanted projectiles).

The special abilities maugs get range from reasonable to unimpressive, but their chassis is so great and comes at such a low cost that +1 is the very minimum here, and for now I'll even go with +2. Let's see what others think.

[Debatra]

Two pretty bad RHD, but only two. A good chassis for a bruiser with an Int bonus, together with Pulverize/semi-Mountain Hammer ("Young Mountain Hammer"?), make me want to compare this to a Warblade. Though a Warblade can use Mountain Hammer every two rounds, rather than 3/day, and Pulverize gets no bonus damage, so it would actually make one of its abilities redundant.

Actually, it's also worth mentioning that "Maugs receive skills as though they were outsiders". So that's twelve skill points more than a normal 2HD construct. Still crap RHD though. It also only heals for that one per hour if it's resting, so it's not like a really slow fast healing. Inevitability probably didn't mean to imply otherwise (though it's possible he misread), I just felt the need to clarify since he didn't mention.

Gonna say +1 for now, but I'm open to +2 if someone has a good argument for it.

[TotallyNotEvil]

Hey, you forgot a few important bits:
- Maugs get skills as if they were Outsiders (8+INT). It's a pretty blanket statement so it could arguably even apply to normal class levels, but even if not it's still a decent chunk o' skill points.
- They get a decent 1d8 Slam.
- They have SR 14 + Class level.

You have as much (41) or more (45.5) HP as a Fighter 5 with CON 14 (42) (does the maximized first HD go for RHD-having PCs too? I think so, but I'm not sure).

[danielxcutter]

The biggest problem is hit points after low~mid-level play, which is ironic since a human wizard can easily get more hit points at ECL 20 than a Maug fighter.

Edit: Okay, a Maug Fighter 18 has 10(because max hit points for first HD)+19d10+30 hit points... which is 144 hit points on average. A human Wizard 20 with 14 Constitution and an Amulet of Health +6 has 151 hit points on average. Not all campaigns go this high, sure, but I think my general point still stands. At least undead templates change all your HD to d12s.

[Efrate]

+1 I think. A decently strong +1 but still +1. I do not think it merits +2, but if someone can convince me I think +2 is within the realm of possibility.

[TotallyNotEvil]

I think it deserves +2:
- Large humanoid with Reach.
- Darkvision 60 ft.
- +10 STR +4 DEX +2 INT and CHA: Total +18, with no negative stats and big bonuses to its likely main role.
- Construct Immunities.
- +7 NA that explicitly accepts armor (which might have been troublesome to convince your DM to add to a Construct). Nothing is as tested as AC, and this is going to catapult yours very high, very easily.
- SR 14 + Class level. A great defense that's relevant throughout the game.
- One 1d8 Slam. It's there.
- "Maugs receive skills as though they were Outsiders" gives you at the very least a generous pile to play with.
- Speed 40 ft (tho they can't run).
- 2k GP that you can complement out of your WBL for grafts. Maug grafts aren't amazing, but free money is free money and the better ones in the list include extra speed and Tremorsense.

From Large + the great attribute bonuses this is easily +1, but when you factor in the big NA, the scaling SR, the pile of Immunities and every other minor ability, that's an easy +2 IMO.

You are going to have about the same HP as the Fighter for a few levels, then as with most constructs while you do fall behind, you've got your SR to protect you against AoEs, your Immunities to protect you from many nasty effects and your NA to protect you from being pummeled to death.

At +1 LA it blows everything else out of the water. Which +1 template gives you the size, big attribute bonuses with no penalties, good scaling SR, big NA boost and one of the most desired set of immunities in the game, just to name the highlights?

[Sutr]

I'm with TotallyNotEvil +2. Comparing to fighter seems disingenuous, not supposed to use tier 5, can we at least agree some kind of psionic class with vigor if the campaign is going anywhere near high level. Its natural hit die are psychic rogue like with construct immunities at lowish levels. Those extra hit points are huge at those levels.

Where did this natural armor stacking not stacking with armor come from?!? Is there a rule that states this it hasn't been factored in any of my calculations. The rules for barding seem to apply to most everything with a body shape.

[TotallyNotEvil]

A Fighter X with 14 CON seems like a good baseline for what a fair amount of HP looks like. It's a d10 with a decent CON bonus. I'm just comparing the HP values when I brought it up, not the class features.

I figured a lot of GMs would look tartly at adding iron armor to an iron golem or things like that, so it doesn't hurt that the base creature wears armor y'know?

Not usually a consideration for playgrounders, but I feel it's a fair callout for certain tables.

[danielxcutter]

If you’re using one, you want a decently beefy class, but you’ll still start falling behind in hit points sooner or later. Spells that target touch AC like Orb of Acid could tear a large chunk off and Combust doesn’t even care about that. It’s only hit points, and that’s at higher levels, but it’s at least worth considering.

[TotallyNotEvil]

If you’re using one, you want a decently beefy class, but you’ll still start falling behind in hit points sooner or later. Spells that target touch AC like Orb of Acid could tear a large chunk off and Combust doesn’t even care about that. It’s only hit points, and that’s at higher levels, but it’s at least worth considering.

A perfectly fine point, but does that make it worth any less than +2?

I would say no, it doesn't. The immunities, the SR and the NA allow you to direct many resources to dealing with your one weakspot, and it's one that, as you said, only shows up later.

[danielxcutter]

Does Amulet of Tears et al. work?

[liquidformat]

So Interesting question, Maug can't run so doesn't that also mean they can't make a charge attack? There for expressly no pounce nor uber charger on the table for Maugs?

[Debatra]

Logically perhaps, but not by RAW.