The LA-assignment thread VIII: Way Too Much For Vampirism

[lord_khaine]

Shadar-Kai:
So.. dex bonus, sneak attack, and freaking Hide in Plain sight?
Yeah thats as minimum a LA +1. I cant see how it can be anything else.
Not when Hide In Plain Sight is such a pain to get.

[Morphic tide]

Shadar-Kai:
So.. dex bonus, sneak attack, and freaking Hide in Plain sight?
Yeah thats as minimum a LA +1. I cant see how it can be anything else.
Not when Hide In Plain Sight is such a pain to get.

The reason why not is because they make for a kinda bad typical Rogue, since they're locked into Spiked Chain use, and have a lose-harder quality. Three 1/2-BAB RHD locks them out of pretty much everything but more Rogue, where they lag behind for the utility functions that make Rogues seriously contribute, or the eternal standby of all burdened with RHD that is Incarnum and Tome of Battle, where they're still penalized by lacking true class levels. Very good at getting off Sneak Attacks and getting into unintended places, but doesn't have quite the room to work with for party face duties like the more optimized Rogues get.

---

As for Shadow Asp, a PC will receive -4 Str, +10 Dex, +4 Con, -6 Int, +2 Wis, and no change to Charisma for their basic ability scores. In addition, they're Tiny sized Magical Beasts, which means a further +2 to AC and attack rolls, and it gets +2 Natural Armor by default, and they get a 1-damage Bite attack unless they invest in Strength, with 1d6 Strength damage Poison attached to it; save DC is 10+Con+1/2 RHD. Incorporeal Form is an hour a day of ignoring terrain and every attack being a Touch attack, and that is far more than enough time to cover all combat encounters. It's also explicitly a Free Action, so it can be used responsively to only the relevant rounds of combat, instead of needing to set it up while closing the distance.

I'm rather torn, because this is a huge amount of defensive power, but offensively it's fairly limited, given the limblessness, Tiny size, and -4 Strength. Given the variety of defenses and lack of required RHD, the usual problems of significant LA aren't particularly present. But as it's only realistic options are Cleric, Druid, and Swordsage, it can't have too much LA or else it ends up in a terrible condition. Clerics down a spell level don't have enough buff power to make up for being a Tiny one-bite -4 Strength creature without limbs. On a Druid, the same issue applies, as Wild Shape turns off everything offered by it and there isn't anything particularly good about the Magical Beast type. Of the three, the Swordsage is in the best position because it does have the tools to take literally any single attack and deal passable damage with it, and its own mobility goes well with the obstacle bypassing Incorporeal Form, making for an actually-worthwhile damage output to go with not being able to die.

I'll go for +2 LA, leaving them a full level behind for spells and/or Maneuvers and eating into enough HD that their Con bonus is mostly counteracted for most of the level range the Incorporeality is a huge defense, alongside the feat taxes for extremity-absent spellcasting. This is a case where we're stuck with it breaking the game one way or another, simply because of how vast its skew of offense and defense is. Getting damage out of a Tiny creature with -4 strength is so hard outside ToB that even at LA +2, it's still quite possibly worth it to take 2 RHD voluntarily just to stop having so many damage penalties (+4 Str/-2 Dex for Tiny to Small), sacrificing four levels to get this thing working as a Totemist.

[Efrate]

A +2 I think is fine. Most opponents cannot hurt you. You do kind of need offense, would psywar work? You cannot use the claw powers but it might be an avenue to explore. Swordsage is the easy fit, totemist might work even at the size with enough riders.

[Morphic tide]

A +2 I think is fine. Most opponents cannot hurt you. You do kind of need offense, would psywar work? You cannot use the claw powers but it might be an avenue to explore. Swordsage is the easy fit, totemist might work even at the size with enough riders.

By RAW, the Totemist is doing all of one damage per attack without A LOT of investment into Strength since their own Claws, IIRC, get docked to the same 1d3-2, and PsyWar is one of the more sensitive to level losses, though the Wisdom bonus mitigates that, their Claws work by RAW, Expansion can work around the size penalties, and they have a good suite of size-independent rider options.

[danielxcutter]

Regarding the Asp: maybe the poison’s supposed to kill when Str falls to 0 like Shadows do with their drain?

[Blue Jay]

I'm onboard with LA +0 for the shadar-kai.

I'm also onboard with LA +2 for the shadow asp. Even if you do get a favorable ruling from a DM about how your Poison kills, your poison delivery is still handicapped by your Tiny size, unless you get the feats from Serpent Kingdoms for spitting your poison at range. So, you're really going to need to lean on your sneaky stuff, rather than your combat, as your major contribution. Your numerical bonuses and the toggle-able incorporeality are still worth LA +2, but not more than that.

Also, the shadow asp jumps up to Small size with the addition of 1 hit die (effectively 2 hit dice because of the special rule for 1-HD creatures), so maybe it's worthwhile to rate the Small one separately, like we did for the abrian earlier in this book? Small size helps the shadow asp operate in melee, but reduces its sneakiness a bit. Overall, it's probably a beneficial trade, as long as the LA doesn't remain +2. So, for me, the Small shadow asp should get LA +1. I don't think I'd go down to LA +0, because that puts it at the same ECL as the standard Tiny shadow asp, and I think the Small one is an upgrade overall; so I'll go with LA +1 in that case.

[danielxcutter]

I'm onboard with LA +0 for the shadar-kai.

I'm also onboard with LA +2 for the shadow asp. Even if you do get a favorable ruling from a DM about how your Poison kills, your poison delivery is still handicapped by your Tiny size, unless you get the feats from Serpent Kingdoms for spitting your poison at range. So, you're really going to need to lean on your sneaky stuff, rather than your combat, as your major contribution. Your numerical bonuses and the toggle-able incorporeality are still worth LA +2, but not more than that.

Also, the shadow asp jumps up to Small size with the addition of 1 hit die (effectively 2 hit dice because of the special rule for 1-HD creatures), so maybe it's worthwhile to rate the Small one separately, like we did for the abrian earlier in this book? Small size helps the shadow asp operate in melee, but reduces its sneakiness a bit. Overall, it's probably a beneficial trade, as long as the LA doesn't remain +2. So, for me, the Small shadow asp should get LA +1. I don't think I'd go down to LA +0, because that puts it at the same ECL as the standard Tiny shadow asp, and I think the Small one is an upgrade overall; so I'll go with LA +1 in that case.

*raises hand* How do we rate monsters that require incredibly broken stuff? I’m not saying that your suggestion is, but what I AM saying is that SK features some of the most OP stuff in the entire edition; while most of it still isn’t quite Ur-Priest levels of broken either, some of it is still orders of magnitude more broken than the vast majority.

I am not qualified to make final judgements on viability, I feel, but how do we rate something that is typically suboptimal, but performs above and beyond with just a drop of something OP? Or even... what about specific material, even? Not everyone allows every book, after all; what happens if the one piece of material needed isn’t Core and the DM doesn’t allow it?

[Efrate]

Well the thread assumes some non standard stuff because if your dm is allowing LAs from this thread they are generally pretty okay with non standard stuff
Else why would they let you use this?

Everyone can go pun pun with Pazuzu, but we do not count on that. Reasonable optimization is assumed. We cannot disqualify a specific trick from a specific source because there is too much to make any consistent ruling. Assume access to all 1st party is kind of where we are.

Because if your DM has enough system mastery to see the point of these LAs they know more sources means more. ice things for martial. The fewer sources or core only actively hurts non casters, because all the silly caster stuff is in core. Plus core only means you wouldn't be able to play anything here.

[liquidformat]

Doesn't Weapon Finesse change to a bonus feat now that this is being updated to 3.5?

As for Shadow Asp, a PC will receive -4 Str, +10 Dex, +4 Con, -6 Int, +2 Wis, and no change to Charisma for their basic ability scores. In addition, they're Tiny sized Magical Beasts, which means a further +2 to AC and attack rolls, and it gets +2 Natural Armor by default, and they get a 1-damage Bite attack unless they invest in Strength, with 1d6 Strength damage Poison attached to it; save DC is 10+Con+1/2 RHD. Incorporeal Form is an hour a day of ignoring terrain and every attack being a Touch attack, and that is far more than enough time to cover all combat encounters. It's also explicitly a Free Action, so it can be used responsively to only the relevant rounds of combat, instead of needing to set it up while closing the distance.

I'm rather torn, because this is a huge amount of defensive power, but offensively it's fairly limited, given the limblessness, Tiny size, and -4 Strength. Given the variety of defenses and lack of required RHD, the usual problems of significant LA aren't particularly present. But as it's only realistic options are Cleric, Druid, and Swordsage, it can't have too much LA or else it ends up in a terrible condition. Clerics down a spell level don't have enough buff power to make up for being a Tiny one-bite -4 Strength creature without limbs. On a Druid, the same issue applies, as Wild Shape turns off everything offered by it and there isn't anything particularly good about the Magical Beast type. Of the three, the Swordsage is in the best position because it does have the tools to take literally any single attack and deal passable damage with it, and its own mobility goes well with the obstacle bypassing Incorporeal Form, making for an actually-worthwhile damage output to go with not being able to die.

I'll go for +2 LA, leaving them a full level behind for spells and/or Maneuvers and eating into enough HD that their Con bonus is mostly counteracted for most of the level range the Incorporeality is a huge defense, alongside the feat taxes for extremity-absent spellcasting. This is a case where we're stuck with it breaking the game one way or another, simply because of how vast its skew of offense and defense is. Getting damage out of a Tiny creature with -4 strength is so hard outside ToB that even at LA +2, it's still quite possibly worth it to take 2 RHD voluntarily just to stop having so many damage penalties (+4 Str/-2 Dex for Tiny to Small), sacrificing four levels to get this thing working as a Totemist.

You are overlooking some important stuff about going druid, for starters we have fangshield druid alternate levels which give hands at level 5 and humanoid form at level 7. Furthermore, if I am remembering correctly, Incorporeal Form is maintained while in alternative forms due to it being an SU that isn't dependent on a specific part of the Asp's body. Also venomfire kicks in at 7th level which makes asp's one bite attack very powerful.

Also Mystic Ranger is a great choice for them as well getting venomfire at level 8 is great though not quite as powerful as with druid.

I'm onboard with LA +0 for the shadar-kai.

I'm also onboard with LA +2 for the shadow asp. Even if you do get a favorable ruling from a DM about how your Poison kills, your poison delivery is still handicapped by your Tiny size, unless you get the feats from Serpent Kingdoms for spitting your poison at range. So, you're really going to need to lean on your sneaky stuff, rather than your combat, as your major contribution. Your numerical bonuses and the toggle-able incorporeality are still worth LA +2, but not more than that.

Also, the shadow asp jumps up to Small size with the addition of 1 hit die (effectively 2 hit dice because of the special rule for 1-HD creatures), so maybe it's worthwhile to rate the Small one separately, like we did for the abrian earlier in this book? Small size helps the shadow asp operate in melee, but reduces its sneakiness a bit. Overall, it's probably a beneficial trade, as long as the LA doesn't remain +2. So, for me, the Small shadow asp should get LA +1. I don't think I'd go down to LA +0, because that puts it at the same ECL as the standard Tiny shadow asp, and I think the Small one is an upgrade overall; so I'll go with LA +1 in that case.

+2/+1 for small (2 rhd) seems reasonable.

*raises hand* How do we rate monsters that require incredibly broken stuff? I’m not saying that your suggestion is, but what I AM saying is that SK features some of the most OP stuff in the entire edition; while most of it still isn’t quite Ur-Priest levels of broken either, some of it is still orders of magnitude more broken than the vast majority.

I am not qualified to make final judgements on viability, I feel, but how do we rate something that is typically suboptimal, but performs above and beyond with just a drop of something OP? Or even... what about specific material, even? Not everyone allows every book, after all; what happens if the one piece of material needed isn’t Core and the DM doesn’t allow it?

I never understood why people are so horrified by venomfire, sure venomfire gives a lot of acid damage but it still requires you to heavily invest in raising the dc of your poison to be effective. A DC 12 fort save isn't exactly hard to overcome after all...

[Remuko]

As for Shadow Asp, a PC will receive -4 Str, +10 Dex, +4 Con, -6 Int, +2 Wis, and no change to Charisma for their basic ability scores. In addition, they're Tiny sized Magical Beasts, which means a further +2 to AC and attack rolls, and it gets +2 Natural Armor by default, and they get a 1-damage Bite attack unless they invest in Strength, with 1d6 Strength damage Poison attached to it; save DC is 10+Con+1/2 RHD. Incorporeal Form is an hour a day of ignoring terrain and every attack being a Touch attack, and that is far more than enough time to cover all combat encounters. It's also explicitly a Free Action, so it can be used responsively to only the relevant rounds of combat, instead of needing to set it up while closing the distance.

I'm rather torn, because this is a huge amount of defensive power, but offensively it's fairly limited, given the limblessness, Tiny size, and -4 Strength. Given the variety of defenses and lack of required RHD, the usual problems of significant LA aren't particularly present. But as it's only realistic options are Cleric, Druid, and Swordsage, it can't have too much LA or else it ends up in a terrible condition. Clerics down a spell level don't have enough buff power to make up for being a Tiny one-bite -4 Strength creature without limbs. On a Druid, the same issue applies, as Wild Shape turns off everything offered by it and there isn't anything particularly good about the Magical Beast type. Of the three, the Swordsage is in the best position because it does have the tools to take literally any single attack and deal passable damage with it, and its own mobility goes well with the obstacle bypassing Incorporeal Form, making for an actually-worthwhile damage output to go with not being able to die.

I'll go for +2 LA, leaving them a full level behind for spells and/or Maneuvers and eating into enough HD that their Con bonus is mostly counteracted for most of the level range the Incorporeality is a huge defense, alongside the feat taxes for extremity-absent spellcasting. This is a case where we're stuck with it breaking the game one way or another, simply because of how vast its skew of offense and defense is. Getting damage out of a Tiny creature with -4 strength is so hard outside ToB that even at LA +2, it's still quite possibly worth it to take 2 RHD voluntarily just to stop having so many damage penalties (+4 Str/-2 Dex for Tiny to Small), sacrificing four levels to get this thing working as a Totemist.

Based on this comment (the only one thats really given any in-depth analysis on the snake, I can't feel like the Asp is worth more than +1. I'm barely convinced its worth the +1 but for now I'm voting +1 because +2 seems absurd.

[Thurbane]

Shadow Asp

• Tiny Magical Beast.
• 1 RHD (Which would swap for class levels, as per thread procdeure).
• Speed 30 ft, climb 10 ft: respectable for a tiny creature.
• +2 natural AC.
• Bite 1d3 + poison.
• Create spawn: create uncontrolled shadows which rise 1d2 days after you kill something (assuming you ignore the glitch in the wording). Not much use for minionmancy, given the delay and lack of control.
• Poison: 1d6 Str/1d6 Str.
• Darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision: decent senses.
• Incorporeal form: Become incorporeal up to 1 hour/day as a free action. Very nice.
• Str -4, Dex +10, Con +4, Int -6, Wis +2: net +6, with a hefty hit to Int.
• +10 to Hide, +5 to Listen and Spot, +8 to Climb.

Tiny non-humanoid form, no limbs or manipulative digits, no ability to speak listed.

I get that the incorporeal thing is a huge deal, especially at low-mid levels, but I would never play this creature myself. No limbs, and may not be able to speak without using items. I think you suffer from Monk syndrome too: your abilities allow you to be hard to kill, but your offensive abilities and potential to contribute to a group are pretty lacking. I think this would be awesome as an Improved Familiar or similar, but not a PC.

Class progression? I'd day skillmonkey, but, yanno - no hands. You're going to have to jump through hoops to be a caster, too (DM/table call on whether you can speak to start with). Martial adept maybe, although your damage output will be a bit limited by size/lack of basic reach, low Str, and being limited to a 1d3 bite or tiny mouthpick weapon.

+2 or more seems far too high. I'll vote +1, only because +0 would undervalue the ability to be selectively incorporeal at low levels.

[Debatra]

I wasn't entirely sure because I always tend to err on the side of lower LA (which I've made clear here several times), but I'm now more confidant in saying +1. Maybe even with an asterisk, not on the poison, but on the incorporeality. That alone I believe is what puts this thing above +0 or even -0. No limbs or ability to speak usually mean "borderline-unplayable" in my book. Not insurmountable, but a heavy burden. Especially at low levels, which this is going to be regardless of its rating.

[Morphic tide]

I get the the incorporeal thing is a huge deal, especially at low-mid levels, but I would never play this creature myself. No limbs, and may not be able to speak without using items. I think you suffer from Monk syndrome too: your abilities allow you to be hard to kill, but your offensive abilities and potential to contribute to a group are pretty lacking. I think this would be awesome as an Improved Familiar or similar, but not a PC.

The thing you seem to be missing is opportunity costs. Accuracy is ordinarily a significant portion of character resources. Incorporeal Form makes all your attacks target Touch AC, and you get +7 to attack rolls from your racial properties. The same goes for defenses, as you get that same +7 to AC and have a 50% chance to not be hit regardless. This is in addition to most of what a normal character can get up to, combat-wise. When it comes to combat, the only thing you need to pay any attention to is damage output. You have a rather considerable amount of stuff you get to ignore to instead grab for the stuff your missing, and the cost of what you're missing isn't actually that much compared to how expensive what you gain gets.

As a Psychic Warrior, you can ignore Vigor, Biofeedback, Inertial Armor, Animal Affinity, Compression, often enough Defensive Precognition and Metaphysical Claw, and so on. Huge swaths of choices that are often taken for to cover not dying and managing to hit, each of which takes a one-per-level Power Known slot and costs you PP each time you need to use it. Early on, alongside the Wisdom and Constitution bumps, this can frequently amount to easily making up the two levels of lost Manifesting because you don't need to spend that PP, and you don't need to learn those Powers, and for late levels, you need a lot less augmentation to all sorts of things.

You just naturally have the benefits you normally spend a lot of levels on, which is the perfect definition of deserving LA. The question is how many levels you can lose before you can't correct your terrible damage, limited skill access, and missing extremities.

[Caelestion]

+2/+1 for small (2 rhd) seems reasonable.

That seems reasonable to me too.

[Temotei]

I think LA +2 is fine. I wouldn't play one myself, though, regardless of LA.

[danielxcutter]

I never understood why people are so horrified by venomfire, sure venomfire gives a lot of acid damage but it still requires you to heavily invest in raising the dc of your poison to be effective. A DC 12 fort save isn't exactly hard to overcome after all...

I never said anything like that, and I actually wasn’t thinking of Venomfire at all when I posted the post you quoted.

I’m genuinely unsure whether it means that attacking with poison means you deal the damage by default or if you have to make them fail the save, but I imagine it would be the former.

The thing about Venomfire is that the damage added is fairly ridiculous(especially compared to similar spells such as the Energy Surge line), acid damage in general is the second least common type of energy damage to resist, the duration is long enough to last the entire combat, and on the right creature the amount of attacks enhanced by it can get positively ridiculous. For the Asp, it’s probably not quite as noticeable. For, say, a 13th-level Druid with Aberration Wild Shape using a Ten-Headed Shrieking Terror, on the other hand...

[Mike Miller]

I vote +1 for the shadow asp.

[ExLibrisMortis]

The thing you seem to be missing is opportunity costs. Accuracy is ordinarily a significant portion of character resources. Incorporeal Form makes all your attacks target Touch AC, and you get +7 to attack rolls from your racial properties. The same goes for defenses, as you get that same +7 to AC and have a 50% chance to not be hit regardless. This is in addition to most of what a normal character can get up to, combat-wise. When it comes to combat, the only thing you need to pay any attention to is damage output. You have a rather considerable amount of stuff you get to ignore to instead grab for the stuff your missing, and the cost of what you're missing isn't actually that much compared to how expensive what you gain gets.

Shadow asps specifically cannot do damage corporeal targets while incorporeal. I think the intent is they cannot do physical damage, as with other incorporeal creatures, but the phrasing is broader, and could include spells--I say we ignore that interpretation though, as it's clearly stupid. Still, you definitely don't get to make your regular attacks as touch attacks, and incorporeal touch attacks are worse than true touch attacks, since they're still subject to force effects. A wraithstrike gish or Deep Impact specialist à la Inevitable Nightmare is better off. While incorporeal, you do get to use your Dexterity score for attack rolls, even without Weapon Finesse, but that should be a bonus feat, so it doesn't end up making a difference--still a nice bonus feat, of course.

Shadow asps don't seem to get a natural incorporeal touch attack, and the price of a ghost touch mouthpick weapon is significant. Plus you can't Power Attack, since you have no Strength score while incorporeal. A minor thing, but worth noting, since PA is often the most efficient way to make use of touch attacks.

The upshot is that that fighting while incorporeal is only useful for spellcasters (not psywars, really, since they're mostly about gishing), who were, for the most part, targeting touch AC already. Don't get me wrong: that Dexterity bonus is amazing, and you'll be a great incorporeal caster (as long as you're Wisdom-based), but I don't think the supposed cost savings really show on an incorporeal melee character. What you do get is the ability to move about the battlefield relatively certain that you cannot be harmed, and you don't have to make Move Silently checks. But then that overlaps with your high Dexterity, to an extent--what's the point of +7 AC if you're incorporeal anyway?


So we've got a monster that has great abilities with significant drawbacks. Shadow asps make great casters, but you probably don't want to be Intelligence-based, which means beguilers, assassins, wizards, etcetera are discouraged. Shadow asps also make very stealthy characters, but they don't really do skillmonkeying, and melee damage output is problematic, particularly at low levels.

I think it's fair to rate the shadow asp as a stealthy caster, in the range of high tier 3, something like a rogue/sorcerer/unseen seer. You do need to invest resources to make the most of your incorporealty and compensate for your body shape, and a whisper gnome, dark whisper gnome, or even just dark human probably ends up being about as effective overall. Those are all LA +1, hence LA +1 for the shadow asp.


P.S. If anyone wants to read up on incorporealty rules, Libris Mortis has a good writeup on pages 140-143 (yes, it's the best part of four pages).

[Thurbane]

What's the consensus on its ability to speak? That will have a direct impact on being a caster.

Monsters generally seem to fall into one of three categories in this regard:

1. Specifically can speak, and has language(s) listed.
2. Specifically cannot speak, due to lack of Int, no vocal apparatus, or other (listed) reasons.
3. Not specified either way, and no language(s) listed.

I tend to categorize option 3 as being the same as option 2, unless otherwise noted.

I mean, there are gear/feat/PrC ways around being a caster who can't natively speak, but they all come at a cost - either monetary, or opportunity cost.

Or psionics, which I'm no expert on.

Would Warlock or DFA be good for a Shadow Asp? What tier are they generally considered? Becoming corporeal, shooting off a breath weapon or eldritch blast, then becoming incorporeal again. Does that seem like a viable build?

[Dalmosh]

Eldritch blasts can also be used in incorporeal form if you don't mind a 50% miss chance. It'd be a pretty boring and frustrating strategy, but at least its infinitely spammable.

A Dread Necromancer's charnel touch would behave similarly as well.

[Dimers]

I concur with LA +1 for the shadow asp, and also with not wanting to play one regardless of LA. Well, not in a campaign that includes at least half the usual amount of combat, anyway. In an investigation scenario or for pure RP, it'd be more interesting.

[Prime32]

I'm a bit late for this, but Dragon #337 includes another way of handling the shadar-kai's drawback - the spell shadowslip prevents them from gaining any new negative levels while under its effects (it otherwise functions as a half-strength displacement spell that also lets the target move at half speed without provoking AoOs).

[Inevitability]

Shadow asp:

+1: 5 votes
+2: 6 votes

Next LA up soon, sorry for the recent delays.

[Inevitability]

Shedu

Holy cow!

9 RHD Large magical beasts with a decent flight speed, two weak slams, and (look closely) five legs.

Their chassis gives a lot of small neat stuff: resistance 5 to most energy sources, spell resistance 14, a continuous Magic Circle Against Evil, Flyby Attack, and even immunity to mind-affecting effects. Their ability scores are solid: bonuses ranging from +6 to +12 in all ability scores, with a focus on strength and intelligence.

Shedu can also trample foes (not that you ever should), shift to the ethereal plane as a free action (and shift back as a move action), and even Astrally Project once a week.

Finally, the SLAs: At-will Clairaudience/Clairvoyance, See Invisibility, and Telekinesis are all useful, 3/day Dominate Person comes in handy too.

Advancement might be tricky: shedu make decent physical attackers but are held back by their excess RHD (and the lack of hands, there's that too), and the RHD similarly prevents casterhood. However, Astral Projection is very strong, so +2 LA should be fine.

[Efrate]

A beatstick with some upsides, advancement being the standard totemist/martial adept/psywar. Rogue actually might be neat here as well. 13 initiator levels leaves you one short of 9this but I think that's still pretty good. Pretty solid suite of good stuff, natural flight and flyby, mind affecting immunity, and the silliness that is astral projection.

I think +0* is fine here. Astral is obviously borked but it's a ton a very good stuff on a decent beater chasis.

[Thurbane]

• Large Magical Beast (no reach)
• 9 RHD (good BAB, 2 good saves, 2 skill points/"level")
• Speed 30 ft, fly 60 ft (average): flight is always good.
• +5 natural AC: OK.
• 2 slams 1d6 (I would have thought being hoof attacks would make more sense, but anyhow)
• SLAs: at will - clairaudience/clairvoyance, see invisibility, telekinesis; 3/day - dominate person; quite respectable SLAs.
• Trample: steamroller medium or smaller creatures for 2d6.
• Acid resistance 5, cold resistance 5, electricity resistance 5, fire resistance 5, sonic resistance 5: minor resistance against all 5 energy types.
• Darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision: decent senses.
• Depart: 1/week astral projection as a supernatural ability; nice.
• Ethereal jaunt: go ethereal as a free action, come back as a move action; supernatural ability. Very nice.
• Magic circle against evil: constant supernatural effect, 20 ft radius; very handy against mind control etc, for your nearby allies.
• Rational mind: immune to mind-affecting effects. Sweet.
• SR 14: pretty low at your starting level, and doesn't scale from there.
• Uncanny stability: immune to bull rush and similar. Situational, but not bad.
• Str +8, Con +6, Int +12, Wis +8, Cha +6: net +40, no penalties! Great stats for a caster, but those 9RHD put a kink in that.
• Small-ish but OK racial skill list; +8 racial bonus on Balance, Listen, Knowledge (planes) and Spot.
• Flyby Attack as a bonus feat: cool.

Non-humanoid form, no hands. Can speak, and oddly the language section mentions telepathy - which I don't see in their stat block?

Only downsides are 9 RHD, and their body shape/hands issue. Weigh that up against flight, solid suite of SLAs (most at will), ethereal jaunt, astral projection, immunity to mind affecting, and favourable ability scores. You might not get 9ths, but initiaitor seems to be the way to go; or into a fast-progression casting PrC if you can wrangle it.

As a beat stick, lack of hands is the only downside, really. Mouthpick weapon + "slams"/hooves? Opposable weapon quality helps here. I'm voting LA +2; I'll have to look into astral projection a bit more and see if deserves an asterisk.

[TotallyNotEvil]

So, they can end their turn going Ethereal as a free action and coming back by spending their next Move?

That seems... Strong.

[Debatra]

I am clearly missing something. What's so broken about Astral Projection?

[Morphic tide]

I am clearly missing something. What's so broken about Astral Projection?

Free 1-up and gear duplication. You can completely ignore virtually all risk of death, and can make a spare of a stupidly expensive item multiple party members want, like squeezing in a +6 Dex item and having an ally grab the one from your suspended body. Your share of the loot can act as a shopping list for everyone else's staples that you can make use of, so a Shedu in higher optimization would go Warblade and share their Dexterity and Intelligence items with the Wizard, who then spends the money needed for their copy on more niche things.

There's a reason why Astral Projection is a ninth level spell.

[Thurbane]

So, they can end their turn going Ethereal as a free action and coming back by spending their next Move?

That seems... Strong.

Pretty nice for an initiator, too.

9 RHD Large magical beasts with a decent flight speed, two weak slams, and (look closely) five legs.

Resisting...urge...to...make...smutty...joke.