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  1. - Top - End - #271
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VIII: Way Too Much For Vampirism

    Unlike "not being a legal target" (like enlarge person on a giant), "being immune" stops the effect of a spell, not the targeting; your immunity to mind-affecting effects would suppress any morale bonus in any round in which you did not take a standard action to drop your immunity.

    As an example, consider Team Solar. It did not rely on mind blank explicitly because it blocks morale bonuses, preferring empyreal ecstasy instead. Mind blank could easily have been applied after all morale bonuses, but that wouldn't have allowed the morale bonuses through.


    It's not that hard to be immune to the nastiest of mind-affecting effects. Shape Soulmeld (planar ward), for example, is quite effective, being equivalent to protection from evil. Being a necropolitan is another classic way of becoming immune to just about everything. These are cheap abilities; they cost about 1000 XP (half the cost of necropolitan, the other half being immunity to energy drain, disease, poison, physical ability damage, etcetera), 4000 gp (item of continous protection from evil), a feat, or a level in a class. All of these costs are easier to bear than LA +1.


    In other words: If I wanted a character immune to mind-affecting effects, why would I accept LA +1 instead of taking a level in incarnate, a level in artificer, or a crash course in undead maintenance?
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  2. - Top - End - #272
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VIII: Way Too Much For Vampirism

    Quote Originally Posted by AMX View Post
    Looks like it - the specific example of "an elf's resistance to sleep effects" actually refers to an immunity (according to the race description).
    I'm not happy about that - IMO "immune" should be reserved for things that simply cannot affect you - but I agree that it works by RAW.
    Oh yeah, now that I think of it, that would be good enough.

    Okay, formally changing it to LA +1. Works for practically everything that isn't Inspire Courage, after all.
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  3. - Top - End - #273
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VIII: Way Too Much For Vampirism

    You need a standard action to drop spell resistance:

    A creature with spell resistance must voluntarily lower the resistance (a standard action) in order to be affected by a spell noted as harmless.
    But not to accept an effect which you're otherwise immune to:

    A creature can voluntarily forego a saving throw and willingly accept a spell’s result. Even a character with a special resistance to magic (for example, an elf’s resistance to sleep effects) can suppress this quality.
    (This is the entire text of that rule, by the way.)

    They're not remotely the same thing. As such, LA: +1. You are absolutely immune to your own bard song, and you can absolutely drop that immunity, and it absolutely doesn't require any actions of any type whatsoever. There is zero indication that suppressing an immunity, other than Spell Immunity(TM), requires a standard action.

  4. - Top - End - #274
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VIII: Way Too Much For Vampirism

    Put me down for +0. Yes, it's a bit strong for that, but I don't think it's quite strong enough to warrant +1. I admit I tend to err on the side of giving players more power rather than less.
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VIII: Way Too Much For Vampirism

    I don't think I've seen anyone voting +1 respond to the question of whether or not this is stronger than Planetouched. I think it's important to address, since a few people have voted +0 on the basis that they think it's weaker
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  6. - Top - End - #276
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VIII: Way Too Much For Vampirism

    Quote Originally Posted by Unavenger View Post
    You need a standard action to drop spell resistance:

    But not to accept an effect which you're otherwise immune to:

    (This is the entire text of that rule, by the way.)

    They're not remotely the same thing. As such, LA: +1. You are absolutely immune to your own bard song, and you can absolutely drop that immunity, and it absolutely doesn't require any actions of any type whatsoever. There is zero indication that suppressing an immunity, other than Spell Immunity(TM), requires a standard action.
    This is certainly one possible reading, but I don't think it's the only possible reading. What you're doing here is extrapolating from a subsection of a subsection of the rules for how spells work. Bardic Music is not a spell, and none of the music abilities that grant morale bonuses are spell-like, so applying rules from the section about Spell Saving Throws is no more valid than applying rules from the section about Spell Resistance: either way, you're extrapolating from a parallel example to resolve an ambiguity.

    There are no rules anywhere that explain the mechanics of immunity to Su or Ex effects, so if you want to be a real rules lawyer about stuff, you have to conclude that you can't suppress immunity to Su or Ex abilities at all: you can only suppress immunity to spells/SLAs. So, you could benefit from bless or aid, but not from Bardic Music.

    Personally, I wouldn't allow immunity to be a selective filter: I would only allow "up" or "down" states, like Spell Resistance. That's not strictly RAW, but I think it's justifiable by RAI, because while the section on "Voluntarily Failing a Saving Throw" says you can suppress immunity, it doesn't say how this is done, so I would interpret that as leaving it open for the DM to extrapolate.

    But, even if we go with your interpretation, I'm now sorely tempted to drop to LA +0 anyway, just because of what others have pointed out about the poison dusk lizardfolk and planetouched. I think all of these are right on the line between LA +0 and LA +1: they're clearly superior to most of the standard races, but it's not one whole level's worth of superiority. I guess I'm staying with LA +1, and just hoping that mine isn't the deciding vote.
    Last edited by Blue Jay; 2020-01-19 at 12:25 PM.
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  7. - Top - End - #277
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VIII: Way Too Much For Vampirism

    Quote Originally Posted by Luccan View Post
    I don't think I've seen anyone voting +1 respond to the question of whether or not this is stronger than Planetouched. I think it's important to address, since a few people have voted +0 on the basis that they think it's weaker
    Being immune to a school of magic+ makes it stronger than the plaenetouched in my opinion, really with some kind of trueseeing it can negate will saves entirely in later levels. Ok slow could still be a problem if you decided to use nonmagical attacks.

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VIII: Way Too Much For Vampirism

    Also immune to patterns and phantasms fwiw.
    Last edited by Efrate; 2020-01-19 at 01:26 PM.

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VIII: Way Too Much For Vampirism

    +0 is my vote. Strong +0 but I dont think theyre +1

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VIII: Way Too Much For Vampirism

    I wonder at what point we end up saying, "this is clearly more powerful than an elf or a dwarf, but <reel off list of races that are somewhere between 0 & 1> aren't significantly less powerful than <latest dubious race>, so clearly <dubious race> must be +0 as well..."

    Anyone would surmise that being slightly behind the curve for a mere three levels is the worst thing in the world.

  11. - Top - End - #281
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VIII: Way Too Much For Vampirism

    Quote Originally Posted by Caelestion View Post
    I wonder at what point we end up saying, "this is clearly more powerful than an elf or a dwarf, but <reel off list of races that are somewhere between 0 & 1> aren't significantly less powerful than <latest dubious race>, so clearly <dubious race> must be +0 as well..."

    Anyone would surmise that being slightly behind the curve for a mere three levels is the worst thing in the world.
    It's a worthwhile comparison, in this case, because they are quite similar to the Planetouched

    Edit: not only that, but if we don't compare occasionally, we're likely to be very inconsistent. If that means adjusting a past entry (I think that's only happened once) or reconsidering our vote for a current monster, it's far more valuable than it is convoluted.
    Last edited by Luccan; 2020-01-19 at 02:57 PM.
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  12. - Top - End - #282
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VIII: Way Too Much For Vampirism

    Quote Originally Posted by Unavenger View Post
    You need a standard action to drop spell resistance:

    But not to accept an effect which you're otherwise immune to:
    (1) As Blue Jay said, that's only for spells and special resistance/immunity to magic. Bardic music isn't a spell that allows a save, and "immunity to mind-affecting spells and effects" isn't a resistance to magic (since it includes non-magical mind-affecting effects), so you can't voluntarily suppress it.
    (2) You can voluntarily fail a save as part of making that save (i.e. not an action), I agree. Suppressing an immunity, however, isn't part of making a save, I don't think. The absence of an action specified is a bit troubling, but I wouldn't immediately jump to "no action cost at all". Then again, by that rule, you can't even suppress immunity to mind-affecting effects, so the point is moot.

    Quote Originally Posted by Caelestion View Post
    I wonder at what point we end up saying, "this is clearly more powerful than an elf or a dwarf, but <reel off list of races that are somewhere between 0 & 1> aren't significantly less powerful than <latest dubious race>, so clearly <dubious race> must be +0 as well..."

    Anyone would surmise that being slightly behind the curve for a mere three levels is the worst thing in the world.
    Nevermind other races, it's clearly behind a class level in a tier 4 class (Incarnate). That's the standard LA +1 has to meet.
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  13. - Top - End - #283
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VIII: Way Too Much For Vampirism

    Quote Originally Posted by Caelestion View Post
    I wonder at what point we end up saying, "this is clearly more powerful than an elf or a dwarf, but <reel off list of races that are somewhere between 0 & 1> aren't significantly less powerful than <latest dubious race>, so clearly <dubious race> must be +0 as well..."
    It's called power creep.

    Anyone would surmise that being slightly behind the curve for a mere three levels is the worst thing in the world.
    This thread assumes that LA-buyoff rules are NOT used.
    Last edited by Bavarian itP; 2020-01-19 at 02:57 PM.
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VIII: Way Too Much For Vampirism

    Quote Originally Posted by Bavarian itP View Post
    It's called power creep.
    Yes, thank you. I'm well aware of that.

    Quote Originally Posted by ExLibrisMortis View Post
    Nevermind other races, it's clearly behind a class level in a tier 4 class (Incarnate). That's the standard LA +1 has to meet.
    That would be a more reassuring statement if people didn't keep popping up to say, with all seriousness, that X race is less powerful than a wizard using shapechange and thus X race's LA should be reduced because of that.

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VIII: Way Too Much For Vampirism

    Well, elven immunity to sleep effects isn't just for the Sleep spell, no? At least I think. Come to think of it, what other methods are there?
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VIII: Way Too Much For Vampirism

    I'm going +1, barely

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VIII: Way Too Much For Vampirism

    That's a weak LA +1 for me too. Being immune to Inspire Courage can be solved by ensuring you don't pick a Feytouched PC if you know a teammate plan to play a Bard - the benefits of being immune to a crapton of effects, some of then quite nasty, far outweigh this minor inconvenience.
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VIII: Way Too Much For Vampirism

    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post
    Well, elven immunity to sleep effects isn't just for the Sleep spell, no? At least I think. Come to think of it, what other methods are there?
    Well, there's also L3 deep slumber, L5 symbol of sleep and L7 hiss of sleep ...

    I've never read about an [Ex] ability that imposes sleep. Though one of my high school teachers must've had such an ability.
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VIII: Way Too Much For Vampirism

    Quote Originally Posted by Dimers View Post
    Well, there's also L3 deep slumber, L5 symbol of sleep and L7 hiss of sleep ...

    I've never read about an [Ex] ability that imposes sleep. Though one of my high school teachers must've had such an ability.
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VIII: Way Too Much For Vampirism

    You're welcome to. Thanks.
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VIII: Way Too Much For Vampirism

    Quote Originally Posted by Sutr View Post
    Being immune to a school of magic+ makes it stronger than the plaenetouched in my opinion, really with some kind of trueseeing it can negate will saves entirely in later levels. Ok slow could still be a problem if you decided to use nonmagical attacks.
    So being able to cast protection from Evil (or other alignments) is worth a +1 LA? PFE can be cast by a first level character and even at level 1 has a duration long enough to last an entire combat. Yes being immune to most of the enchantment school is an issue but it is an issue across the game and is one of if not the easiest immunity to get in the game. I don't rate this immunity very high because it can be replicated so easily, it isn't worth an LA.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dimers View Post
    Well, there's also L3 deep slumber, L5 symbol of sleep and L7 hiss of sleep ...

    I've never read about an [Ex] ability that imposes sleep. Though one of my high school teachers must've had such an ability.
    There are a few of poisons that cause sleep, pretty sure the only reason elves have that ability is to combat drow...

    Quote Originally Posted by Thurbane View Post
    Are we all in agreement that you can lower your immunity for beneficial spells?
    Quote Originally Posted by AMX View Post
    Looks like it - the specific example of "an elf's resistance to sleep effects" actually refers to an immunity (according to the race description).
    I'm not happy about that - IMO "immune" should be reserved for things that simply cannot affect you - but I agree that it works by RAW.
    Actually I am not sure that rule is worth the ink it was written with. First of all it calls the elf's ability a resistance, but its not a resistance it is an immunity (granted they maybe talking about elf's resistance to enchantments and not sleep and just screwed up). Second of all it talks about letting yourself fail a save which brings up a host of issues. For starters immunities bypass saves altogether so you never get to the point to make a save and therefore can't voluntarily fail it. Secondly in the case of bardic music specifically, inspire courage, inspire competence, inspire greatness, inspire freedom, nor inspire Heroics allow a save.

  22. - Top - End - #292
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VIII: Way Too Much For Vampirism

    On feytouched to planetouched:

    Both have net positive stats. Slight advantage planetouched.

    Both are immune to X person effects, due to typing. A wash but see below.

    Both have different alternate form options for alter self et. al. affects. Plantouched advantage.

    Both get a low level SLA, with charm person being a generally superior option feytouched.

    Pretty equal until you get to immunity to mind effecting. It is a drastic upgrade from mere PFE or a soulmeld, which protect against charms and compulsions.

    You also get immunity to sleep effects.

    Immunity to detect thoughts and arguably mindsight.

    Immunity to all fear effects, frightful presence, demoralization, which is an entire skill (as applied to pcs) and a host of auras and abilities of many monsters, and a large portion of necromancy spells and affects.

    Immunity to patterns and phamtasm which is some (admittedly usually minor) illusion spells and affects.

    Immunity to morale affects. This hoses your party bard unless he is using DFI which is NOT a morale bonus as far as I can tell, the feat says for each point of morale bonus instead add xd6 but its not called out as any particular type of bonus. It also means some buffs will not work on you from various lists, but the turning off immumity ambiguity might negate that, YMMV.

    That is clearly superior IMO over plantouched, or a level in incarnate, so that is why I go +1.

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VIII: Way Too Much For Vampirism

    Quote Originally Posted by Efrate View Post
    Immunity to all fear effects, frightful presence, demoralization, which is an entire skill (as applied to pcs) and a host of auras and abilities of many monsters, and a large portion of necromancy spells and affects.
    So interesting question, where in the rules does it say demoralizing/intimidation is a Mind-Affecting effect? from looking around I am not seeing any such correlation by RAW. Also any I am not sure you can blanket immune all Frightful presence abilities, if they aren't expressly called out as Mind-Affecting effects I don't think it can be considered one by RAW....

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VIII: Way Too Much For Vampirism

    Quote Originally Posted by liquidformat View Post
    So interesting question, where in the rules does it say demoralizing/intimidation is a Mind-Affecting effect? from looking around I am not seeing any such correlation by RAW. Also any I am not sure you can blanket immune all Frightful presence abilities, if they aren't expressly called out as Mind-Affecting effects I don't think it can be considered one by RAW....
    The mechanics of immunity seem to be very poorly described in general. It's a bit of an extrapolation, but the entries for creature types that have immunity to mind-affecting (construct, ooze, plant and undead) list "morale effects" as one of the types of mind-affecting effects. I think it was clearly the RAI, but it wasn't made explicitly clear.

    -----

    Also, I think I'm going to switch sides and alter my vote to LA +0: I'm not sure there's a clear enough difference in power between feytouched and planetouched. I'm a bit worried about power creep, and maybe there's a whole cohort of "LA +1/2" types that would be best dealt with by a DM applying some minor tweaks to even things out.

    I'll edit my vote in my earlier post.
    Last edited by Blue Jay; 2020-01-20 at 01:44 PM.
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VIII: Way Too Much For Vampirism

    All fear attacks are mind-affecting fear effects. Explicitly.

    Srd, special abiltites fear.

    Frightful presence under abilities references both shaken and frightened conditions which are explicitly called out as fear effects.

    Intimidate calls out bonuses to fear, and demoralizaion specifically gives the shaken condition, which is explicitly a fear effect.

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VIII: Way Too Much For Vampirism

    Quote Originally Posted by Dimers View Post
    Well, there's also L3 deep slumber, L5 symbol of sleep and L7 hiss of sleep ...

    I've never read about an [Ex] ability that imposes sleep. Though one of my high school teachers must've had such an ability.
    Pixie sleep arrows (Ex) (as also used by Thorn and Hybsil). They are tagged as Ex.

    Drow Sleep Poison?

    ...and plenty of Supernaturals:

    Brass Dragon breath (Su)
    Dream Serpent gaze (Su)
    Dreamfane sleep touch (Su)
    Jackalwere sleep gaze (Su)
    Luna Moth sleep dust (Su)
    Petal sleep songs (Su)
    Shaedling sleeping curse (Su)
    Tirbana sleep drone (Su)

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VIII: Way Too Much For Vampirism

    Oh, cool. I guess I have read (and forgotten) about them. Thurbane, you're delightfully thorough.
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VIII: Way Too Much For Vampirism

    +0: 6 votes
    +1: 10 votes

    The LA will remain at +1. New monster soon.
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VIII: Way Too Much For Vampirism

    Fhorge


    Dangerous extraplanar swine, and food for an extremely lame pun!

    Fhorge have 12 magical beast HD, are large-sized, and have the stat spread you'd expect: great strength, good constitution, some wisdom, low dexterity and charisma, and abysmal intelligence. Their one natural attack is a bite with improved grab and Worry (which deals automatic bite damage to a grabbed target each round).

    Furthermore, they have the boar-like ability to keep fighting at negative HP, the badger-like ability to fly in a rage during combat, and the orc-like ability to charge for double damage.

    I could see this making for an okay one-dimensional charger, but in practice it's not going to be outdamaging a dedicated humanoid. Being quadruped, and not innately getting weapons to use, also does not help. Also, taking damage in combat makes you fly in a berserk rage you can't control, so there's that too.

    -0 LA, maybe worth playing in a very odd campaign.
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  30. - Top - End - #300
    Troll in the Playground
     
    danielxcutter's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2016
    Location
    Seoul
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VIII: Way Too Much For Vampirism

    LA -0 for the CR 9 angry pork chop. What's next?
    Cool elan (no not that kind) Illithid Slayer by linkele.


    Editor/co-writer of Magicae Est Potestas, a crossover between Artemis Fowl and Undertale. Archive Of Our Own FanFiction.net DeviantArt
    We also have a TvtTropes page!


    Extended signature here.

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