The LA-assignment thread VIII: Way Too Much For Vampirism

[Sutr]

Does it? Totemist soulmelds do some pretty interesting things, so I wouldn't say every category.

I guess I'll bite.

Full Base attack, 8 skill points, great skill list, high all saves and higher stats. Clear winner outsider.

Totemist 4 Soulmelds 2 binds.

Creature gets flight, 3 natural attacks and a ranged attack with a poison all equivalent to a totemists binds.

Natural armor and resistances are Soulmelds. The immunities are nice as well. SR is too but it won't scale and can be a hindrance.

I assume you are going to have a higher bonus to a skill check if you have ranks as a totemist if you have ranks in that skill. You'd be right. It would be close on the dex skills with the stat bonus though and the stat bonuses apply to more skills. I still rate it a win for the outsider. Or you could be saying that the totemist is more versatile due to being able to switch, but the outsiders quantity of comparable abilities to Soulmelds is versatile enough on its own.

Which category am I missing?

[liquidformat]

Compared to a totemist it wins in every category so +1.

AFB but quickly looking at a warforged totemist6 or barb1/totemist6 they seem pretty comparable, Winged Warrior looses some of the totemist's versatility in exchange for stat bonuses and perm fly speed

[Blue Jay]

So, during the "Long Dark" (I think that's what some playgrounders were trying to call it), I was feeling some "Reassigned LA Withdrawal," so I started going through and taking my best stab at rating all the monsters in the Fiend Folio. I then kind of went overboard and rated monsters in most of the books I have.

I originally pegged the winged warrior at +1. The ability scores are quite good, there are 4 natural weapons (one with a rider effect), 2 of which can apparently be used alongside manufactured weapons; and native flight is always nice. Outsider HD give you good numbers across the board. So, that's a pretty good start for a melee/scout character.

But, the natural attacks aren't very potent, and the one that has all the special effects has a really low per-day limit; so I guess the bite is the only one that you'll be able to regularly include in your optimal full attack, and that's only a few points of damage. So, this probably isn't a particularly remarkable melee character (except the fly speed could let you do Dive attacks for double claw damage). Also, the scouting toolkit is pretty basic: flight, the core scouting skills and Hive Mind (if you've got other Formians in your party), but nothing like invisibility or trapfinding.

So, with that in mind, I'm not really sure it reaches +1, so I think I'll vote LA +0 for the Formian winged warrior.

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Also, I've been running a monster game at Myth-Weavers, and I've taken to calling this project the "Reassigned LA Project," or just "RLA Project" (I really wanted a convenient acronym). I hope that's acceptable?

[Dimers]

Winged Warrior looks good and entirely playable, but doesn't seem obviously better than a human with class levels. LA +0 for me.

[Sutr]

AFB but quickly looking at a warforged totemist6 or barb1/totemist6 they seem pretty comparable, Winged Warrior looses some of the totemist's versatility in exchange for stat bonuses and perm fly speed

It gains the versatility back by having more always charged soulmeld equivalencies. I agree it stacks well in comparison to the 7 level character. It just seemed better than a melee specked totemist 6.

But, the natural attacks aren't very potent, and the one that has all the special effects has a really low per-day limit; so I guess the bite is the only one that you'll be able to regularly include in your optimal full attack, and that's only a few points of damage. So, this probably isn't a particularly remarkable melee character (except the fly speed could let you do Dive attacks for double claw damage). Also, the scouting toolkit is pretty basic: flight, the core scouting skills and Hive Mind (if you've got other Formians in your party), but nothing like invisibility or trapfinding.

So I saw the ranged attack in the stat block as well and decided the times per day were based on the double attack. I'm comparing it to Manticore and it has different wording. Am I doing that wrong? Whats other peoples opinions on this?

[danielxcutter]

It gains the versatility back by having more always charged soulmeld equivalencies. I agree it stacks well in comparison to the 7 level character. It just seemed better than a melee specked totemist 6

You can easily get 4 natural attacks at Totemist 2 with the Totem bind of Girallion Arms, and like seven a few more levels in.

So I saw the ranged attack in the stat block as well and decided the times per day were based on the double attack. I'm comparing it to Manticore and it has different wording. Am I doing that wrong? Whats other peoples opinions on this?

Hmm, I think the wording implies that shooting one spike is unlimited, but firing two at once does have a daily limit. Still, you'd probably be better off shooting arrows most of the time, I think.

[Thurbane]

Don't have the time to commit to a detailed breakdown right now, but I agree with LA +0.

[Sutr]

You can easily get 4 natural attacks at Totemist 2 with the Totem bind of Girallion Arms, and like seven a four more levels in.



Hmm, I think the wording implies that shooting one spike is unlimited, but firing two at once does have a daily limit. Still, you'd probably be better off shooting arrows most of the time, I think.

The winged warrior gets that soulmeld two levels in if it takes Totemist. I must be missing another soulmeld that adds 3 attacks that don't include claws, though I'll assume you are right. Even still the immunities and resistances are there.

Maybe, softening up something while moving into melee or using your fly speed to evade, could benefit from an addon like poison. In a standup lets kill it at range I agree.

[liquidformat]

It gains the versatility back by having more always charged soulmeld equivalencies. I agree it stacks well in comparison to the 7 level character. It just seemed better than a melee specked totemist 6.



So I saw the ranged attack in the stat block as well and decided the times per day were based on the double attack. I'm comparing it to Manticore and it has different wording. Am I doing that wrong? Whats other peoples opinions on this?

The way I am reading that you have to shoot two spikes at once as a standard action, it can't be used as part of a full attack option, and it can only be used twice per day.

So looking at a warforged barbarian1/totemist 5, the winged warrior ends up having +12 ability stat points over the raging warforged, +2 bab, better will save which is possibly offset by Cobalt Rage or Cerulean Will, the warforged should have slightly more health, they have equivalent immunities, the winged warrior will have better AC, the warforged will do more damage by virtue of having more attacks but the winged warrior has inborn flight.

Keeping in mind that a warforged is at the top of +0 races after looking over everything I think I will change my vote to +1 LA I believe it comes out slightly a head of the warforged.

[Inevitability]

Fossergrim

Waterfall dryads!

Fossergrim are 5 RHD fey that make their home in waterfalls and rivers. They enjoy boosts to all stats (mostly dexterity, constitution, and charisam), a reasonable 60 ft. swim speed (in addition to a normal land speed), and a few interesting special abilities.

First of those is an automatic True Strike effect on all their attacks... when they and the target are both standing in one specific river. It's hardly bad, it's just so incredibly situational that it might come up one maybe one of the campaign's adventures.

Slightly less specific are fast healing 5 and SR 15, both of which function in 'splashing water' of any kind. I guess that covers stormy water, river rapids, waterfalls, and a couple of spell effects?

Finally, fossergrims have a dryad-like inability to leave their waterfall home, and die if they do. As I did with dryads, I'll assume any PC has gotten rid of this trait somehow.

Take away the ridiculously niche abilities, and fossergrim are just kind of bland 5 RHD fey that have nothing going for them except their stats. A melee character will dislike losing three points of BAB: a skillful one can't do much with the awful racial skills, and a caster is unviable for obvious reasons. Even when compared to tier 4 characters, I can't see the fossergrim performing comparably.

-0* LA, open (but sceptical) to arguments for +0*.

[Thurbane]

Is the * for being tied to their waterfall?

I'll have a think about this one, but yeah, 5 Fey HD, with not amazing racial skills and situational abilities doesn't bode well for class progression...

[remetagross]

There's nothing in here that redeems 5 lost HDs. LA -O.

As a side note, I was perusing the article about the Acorn of Far Travel the other day (through one of the wayback machine links that have been kindly posted by playgrounders). It's a very simple RAW way for a Dryad to go adventuring on her own without worrying about her home tree. I suppose a Fossergrim could get his hands on a Reed of Far Travel or something of that ilk.

[Efrate]

-0. The true strike thing is super neat but seeing as how PA and Combat expertise are limited by BaB even if you use acorn of far travel shenanigans the lost BaB makes that mostly useless as a build around.

[Thurbane]

OK, I suppose I should do a breakdown:

• 5 RHD: d6 HD, poor BAB, two good saves, and 6 skill points/level.
• Speed of 30 ft, 60 ft swim: decent in an aquatic campaign.
• True strike: only if both in your home river.
• Fast healing 5: only in "splashing" water.
• Low-light vision: meh.
• SR 15: only in "splashing" water. Also, doesn't scale.
• Waterfall dependency: a crippling limitation - you won't be a PC unless your DM agrees to some kind of workaround.
• Str +4, Dex +6, Con +6, Int +2, Wis +4, Cha +8: net +30, no penalties. This is probably the best thing going for this creature.
• Proficient with medium armor, simple weapons, battle axe and longbow.
• A not-so-great racial skill list: Diplomacy, Heal, Hide, Knowledge (nature), Sense Motive, Survival & Swim; +8 racial bonus to Swim. Not the makings of a good skill monkey.
• Humanoid in form, can speak, so at least that part is OK.

So a handful of highly situational special abilities and decent ability mods, weighed up against 5 lost levels. Not a great chassis for caster, melee type or skill monkey. Dare I suggest Ur-Priest, yet again? Seems to be a crutch for sub-par monsters.

Even in a primarily fresh water campaign setting, you'd struggle to get to LA +0. I'm voting LA -0*; but if you somehow wrangled always-on Fast Healing and True Strike, I could see an argument for LA +0*.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

I think with permanent true strike these guys would be worth at least +1 LA; +20 to hit covers a multitude of flaws, not least that you can then PA, TWF, and flurry to your heart's content (even all at once if you want). Without that, they don't really have anything going for them, so definitely -0*.

[danielxcutter]

Yeah, good point about the always-on True Strike. At that point you can probably TWF greatswords and still have a good enough chance to hit.

[Sutr]

Tried using charming the arrow to make it an archer. I have no doubt that a player could look at the x stat to y bonus and 5-8 more levels can be something viable. I just can't do it at level 5 so -0.

[ZamielVanWeber]

An archer cleric using Ur-Priest and Charming the Arrow should work nicely, but I am not confident that can dig it out of the -0 hole since you also have to struggle with the lack of racial features.

If you do the Ur-Priest adaptation that removes the evil requirement you can do Ur-Priest into prestiege paladin and end up with smites, Cha to hit and saves, and cleric casting. You can only stay in a bit before needing to duck out for needing to run into Knight of The Raven for it's better casting progression.

Now how you afford the skill reqs into ur-priest...? IDK feats I guess? This is just a vague idea at this point.

[danielxcutter]

Ur-Priest is one of the most notorious prestige classes in terms of OPness, so if you don't have any other options that's not going to look good.

[liquidformat]

An archer cleric using Ur-Priest and Charming the Arrow should work nicely, but I am not confident that can dig it out of the -0 hole since you also have to struggle with the lack of racial features.

Its not just bad racial features it is also horrible rhd, fey rhd are pretty crippling without casting, and the fact that they have 6+int instead of 8+int skill points per rhd is just a slap in the face... -0* seems correct here

[danielxcutter]

Its not just bad racial features it is also horrible rhd, fey rhd are pretty crippling without casting, and the fact that they have 6+int instead of 8+int skill points per rhd is just a slap in the face... -0* seems correct here

Eh, it's not that much of a slap, because Fey tend to have good mental stats and very nice RHD class skills.

[ExLibrisMortis]

I'll agree with LA -0*. It's not even good for an underwater campaign, because that water isn't "splashing".

[danielxcutter]

I'll agree with LA -0*. It's not even good for an underwater campaign, because that water isn't "splashing".

Hold up, so if it's not splashing then no fast healing even in your home stream? Bummer.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Hold up, so if it's not splashing then no fast healing even in your home stream? Bummer.

Fossergrim are associated primarily with above ground waterfalls, hence the splashing requirement.

And, TBC, my vote is solidly for -0. This requires a lot of work to be a decent monster race.

[liquidformat]

Hold up, so if it's not splashing then no fast healing even in your home stream? Bummer.

I mean compared to its other two abilities (Waterfall Dependency and True Strike) this is actually a pretty nice ability and very easy to use/abuse literally all the Fossergrim needs to do is jump in a puddle of water and he heals hp...

[Grey Guard]

Fossergrim! One featured in a game of mine once. One of the characters was a fey-touched Cleric to Sune, and (we didn't know this at the time) we bumped into his grandfather, a Fossergrim, who had just about charmed the pants off of the teenage half-drow girl in the party.

We had to rough him up a bit, and he lost handily to an equal leveled Psychic Warrior. Even with the True Strike up (he never missed at least?).

I like these guys as a concept, but they're simply a social encounter for female characters as it is. In my home games, Cantrips/Orisons can be used at will, and I have a feeling the players would try and use Create Water to trigger the Fast Healing...

I agree with the consensus of -0.

In my home games, we'd probably let the Fey RHD Gestalt with NPC levels to bring it up to speed, but even then it's nothing to write home about; and that has no bearing on this discussion.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Hold up, so if it's not splashing then no fast healing even in your home stream? Bummer.

During cold winters, the fossergrim population takes a sharp dive.

[Thurbane]

During cold winters, the fossergrim population takes a sharp dive.

According to the fluff text, when the river freezes they hibernate, but spring back into action if anyone threatens the river.

Spoiler

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[danielxcutter]

...Is that gun waterproof?

[Bavarian itP]

charmed the pants off

Literally?