The LA-assignment thread VIII: Way Too Much For Vampirism

[Grey Guard]

Literally?

Literally and figuratively.

[Inevitability]

Gathra

Cows from hell!

Like so many mid-level beasts, gathra fail to make much of an impact. Large size, 27 strength, and magical beast HD mean you'll be a reasonable bruiser... just not on the level of a dedicated barbarian. 3/day Fear and Trample are poor as far as special attacks go, and even the DR isn't enough to redeem this. Two hooves and a gore are serviceable natural weapons, but not amazing ones.

Sidenote: the description mentions that these beasts inhabit Avernus, but also talks about how demons use them as mounts, so presumably there's a band of abyssal cattle-rustlers that periodically drives some gathra through a portal.

-0 LA, even as a mount this feels lacking.

[danielxcutter]

Sidenote: the description mentions that these beasts inhabit Avernus, but also talks about how demons use them as mounts, so presumably there's a band of abyssal cattle-rustlers that periodically drives some gathra through a portal.

First of all, Avernus is the layer of Baator that gets invaded by the demon hordes, so it’s actually not that unlikely. Even more importantly, do you really think the demons wouldn’t love cattle-rustling from the infernal cowdevils if it results in both a cool mount and pissed devils?

[Efrate]

Another -0. Barbarian is just superior.

[Sutr]

First of all, Avernus is the layer of Baator that gets invaded by the demon hordes, so it’s actually not that unlikely. Even more importantly, do you really think the demons wouldn’t love cattle-rustling from the infernal cowdevils if it results in both a cool mount and pissed devils?

I love the new adventure seed. -0 for the demonic waterbuffalo. How is the bellow DC so low shouldn't it be 18, or is it a spell like ability? Randomly high charisma for a divine crusader though.

[Thurbane]

No detailed analysis of this one from me: LA -0 seems clear.

[ZamielVanWeber]

-0. Cool visuals, cool fluff, mechanics don't back it up.

[Thurbane]

It's back, it's back!


http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/features

Hopefully if it remains up, we may be able to do Monster Manual VI - Online Monsters at some point after FF.

[Falontani]

Hopefully if it remains up, we may be able to do Monster Manual VI - Online Monsters at some point after FF.

Do you think you could get it to a point where if it goes back down?

[Thurbane]

Do you think you could get it to a point where if it goes back down?

Fingers crossed it's back up for the foreseeable future, but I can't see them hosting it all indefinitely.

[Random Sanity]

-0 for the Gathra as a PC. +1 for the skull as a clothes rack.

[danielxcutter]

-0 for the Gathra as a PC. +1 for the skull as a clothes rack.

Oh my god, can I sig that?

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Yeah, easy -0.

[Random Sanity]

Oh my god, can I sig that?

Be my guest.

[Malphegor]

Would the unspoken ability to produce infernal milk and thus brimstone-stinking cheeses (what would that be, Profession(Dairy Cow) give any adjustment to these?)

[Thurbane]

Would the unspoken ability to produce infernal milk and thus brimstone-stinking cheeses (what would that be, Profession(Dairy Cow) give any adjustment to these?)

Just leaving this here...

The Secret Cow Level

[danielxcutter]

Just leaving this here...

The Secret Cow Level

.....What.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Thurbane is a liar. There is no cow level.

[danielxcutter]

Thurbane is a liar. There is no cow level.

Damnit, I knew I should have made that joke.

[liquidformat]

Just leaving this here...

The Secret Cow Level

Oh good old secret cow level Diablo II was and is a wonderful game!

[Inevitability]

Giant

The fiend folio picture isn't much better, trust me.

Bog Giant

First of the FF's additions to the giant family! Bog giants are Large-sized, have only 6 RHD, and are completely unsurprising in every way. High strength, slightly less-high constitution, all other stats average-to-bad (except for 14 charisma, for some reason). They get basic rock throwing, basic rock catching, a swim speed, longspear proficiency and not really anything else.

Melee brute stats are nice: six giant RHD are not. -0 LA is probably best: if it had just one or two fewer HD this might've been fine at +0.

Shadow Giant

The 18 HD shadow giants are at first glance a typical Big Giant With Big Numbers. And they are: they just have some weird abilities on top of that.

4d6 sneak attack, Death Attack, a racial Hide bonus and HiPS are abilities you expect on a rogue prestige class: not a Huge-sized bruiser. The Hide bonus offsets the size penalty and HiPS removes the need for Huge-sized cover, but the Sneak and Death Attacks are somewhat unimpressive for a character of this level.

Furthermore, shadow giants get some at-will SLAs. Deeper Darkness is very situational, Blur and Shadow Walk are useful, but it's at-will Shadow Conjuration and Shades that let you get truly crazy. On-demand access to all 8th-level and lower wizard conjuration spells is crazy enough already, but it arguably removes casting times, material components, or XP requirements too.

I'm not saying that at-will Shades lets you qualify as a tier 2 or 3 caster all by itself, but then again I'm not not saying that either. It's a ridiculous spell to be able to spam, no matter how it's read.

Considering the sheer power and versatility of this ability, a LA of +1 is required. That way, shadow giants should be reasonably competitive when compared to binders, fixed-list casters, and other tier 3s.

[Efrate]

-0 for bog. It's just a dude. Also calling out longspear prof. is kinda odd. Giant type gets all Simple as it is and longspear is simple.

For mr. at will shades I think +0. That's like really really good. Maybe even higher.

[danielxcutter]

At-will Shades is an epic Warlock feat (though said feat does come with several other benefits), so that’s actually pretty damn powerful!

[liquidformat]

Did the errata change the rhd for Bog Giant, I have 8 not 6 in my book?

Anyways compared to a enlarged raging water orc barbarian 2/warblade 4 it has 4 more str, 2 more dex, 2 more con 2 less int, 2 more wis, 6 more cha that is net 14 stats over our water orc. Bog standard has 2 less bab so you end up breaking even in damage department (less likely to hit but slightly more damage), less hp due to d8, similar or slightly better saves, and better ac. All and all Bog standard is pretty comparable to a water orc warrior 6 which is grounds for a -0 LA. If instead we are looking at 8 hd then a comparison point of enlarged raging frenzied water orc barbarian 2/warblade 4/Frenzied Berserker 2 comes out even worse. Either way seems like a solid -0 LA to me, not enough there to justify 6 hd much less 8.

Onto Shadow Giant, did the errata remove blindsight from old shady?

Anyways he has pretty good ability scores that focus on physical abilities as to be expected for a giant, pretty good chassis for stealth melee and some good spells, I think it has more than enough for +0 LA

[Zecrin]

To compare two builds:

Dark Human Rogue 7 / Assassin 10
Benefits: Evasion, trapfinding, cold resistance 10, improved uncanny dodge, penetrating strike, skills (better at sneak, can max UMD), bonus feat, +5d6 sneak attack, poison use, assassin spells (including such highlights as: freedom of movement, assassin’s darkness, greater invisibility, wraith strike, and alter self)

Shadow Giant
Benefits: More hp, rock-throwing, blindsight, reach, huge sized weapons, higher base speed, higher AC, SLAs.

Now the human w/ class levels appears to have the better chassis. However, Shades at-will is, as some have already noted, quite powerful. I think the best point of comparison would be the Binder’s Zceryll vestige, a feature so powerful that some argue it moves the entire class into tier 2 territory.

In my mind, shades and the other spells it enables through summon monster provide more value than all of the features enjoyed by the human taken together (excepting access to UMD).

Therefore, if people think that rogue is the best point of comparison for shadow giant then I would offer up an LA of +2. However, if people find Binder more appropriate, then I’d probably go down to +0 or +1.

[Sutr]

Bog Giant seems -0.

I don't know what to do about Shadow. Honestly, as a PC its going to sit on its reach hide and cast shades. I could compare to a sorcerer in which case it has +8 to charisma +16 to con high natural armor. Warlock seems better as a match, in which case its inborn stealth and size seem to warrant at least a +1.

[ExLibrisMortis]

-0 for the bog giant. I'm tempted to go -0 for the shadow giant, on account of it being such a one-trick pony... but since shades gets rid of casting times and material components, I won't, and assign LA +0 instead. Shadow giants are worse than sorcerers, but still a decently versatile tier 3, I think.

I don't know what to do about Shadow. Honestly, as a PC its going to sit on its reach hide and cast shades. I could compare to a sorcerer in which case it has +8 to charisma +16 to con high natural armor. Warlock seems better as a match, in which case its inborn stealth and size seem to warrant at least a +1.

I agree about shades, but shadow giants aren't actually stealthier than warlocks. An 18th-level warlock can simply be invisible 24/7 (as per (greater) invisibility), and the giant's Hide in Plain Sight isn't on the same level at all.

Also, if the shadow giant really is going to be casting shades, as you say, then its size isn't really a factor, is it? If anything, casters want to be small and nimble, not great big targets. Most of what giants are about (strength, size, rock throwing) don't synergize at all with what shadow giants get as special abilities (stealth, SA/DA, SLAs). You can't really gish with them either, as many gishing spells are Transmutation or Abjuration. Whatever they end up doing, shadow giants are probably going to waste at least half their natural talents, in favour of using the other half. LA +1 is completely unnecessary.

[Zecrin]

I agree about shades, but shadow giants aren't actually stealthier than warlocks. An 18th-level warlock can simply be invisible 24/7 (as per (greater) invisibility), and the giant's Hide in Plain Sight isn't on the same level at all.

Also, if the shadow giant really is going to be casting shades, as you say, then its size isn't really a factor, is it? If anything, casters want to be small and nimble, not great big targets. Most of what giants are about (strength, size, rock throwing) don't synergize at all with what shadow giants get as special abilities (stealth, SA/DA, SLAs). You can't really gish with them either, as many gishing spells are Transmutation or Abjuration. Whatever they end up doing, shadow giants are probably going to waste at least half their natural talents, in favour of using the other half. LA +1 is completely unnecessary.

I would contend that hide in plain sight is superior to greater invisibility at higher levels because it's not as susceptible to see invisibility, true-seeing, invisibility purge, etc.

I'm also not really sure why we're using warlock as a point of comparison for the shadow giant (assassin seems the more obvious comparison with its sneakiness, death attack, sneak attack, and access to a limited amount of magical spells). However, even if we do use warlock, the shadow giant seems to pull ahead definitively.

See here for the vast list of spells to which the shadow giant has access (all without any xp or material component costs):

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthre...ture-SLA-Lists

While I argue that this vast repertoire of spells already makes the giant superior to an 18th warlock, these spells by no means represent the limits of what a shadow giant can do with shades.

Here are a few examples:

1. Abusing the Shadow Trap spell from champions of ruin to layer multiple traps on the same object.

2. Abusing shades short casting time with creations spells to drop objects on enemies

3. Create 3 magic tattoos at the beginning of each day for all party members.

4. Control the battlefield with effects like freezing fog, mudslide, and wall of force.

5. Use Frostburn's Ice Castle spell to instantly create a huge castle of shadow and ice (hey, that sounds cool). This can be useful for having an instant lair or trapping enemies fighting on wide-open battlefields.

6. Further improve your own armor and that of your summons with improved mage armor and mass mage armor

7. Create a large number faithful hounds.

8. Use phase door to ignore dungeon layouts.

I didn't take the time to check how well the above strategies work in practice, but they come to mind as examples of how a shadow giant might conceivably use the shades SLA to make itself better than an assassin or warlock. Therefore, an LA of at least +1 is completely necessary

[lord_khaine]

+1 LA for the Bog Giant. When you need to drag Water orcs into the picture, and both enlarge them and enrage them to compare.
Then we know something is up.

[Thurbane]

I'll tackle these one at a time:

Bog Giant

• Large Giant (aquatic), with reach.
• 8 RHD (d8hp, medium BAB, one good save, 2 skill points/level).
• 30 ft speed, 40 ft swim: not bad.
• +7 natural AC: OK-ish.
• Rock throwing: 1d6? Meh.
• Darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision: decent senses.
• Rock catching: situational at best
• Str +14, Con +8, Int -4, Cha +4: net +22. The hit to Int hurts. Primordial template can help.
• Very limited racial skill list, but at least there are three useful skills to be had. +8 racial bonus on Swim, +4 racial bionus on Hide (+8 in swamps).
• Redundant and erroneous feat of MWP (longspear): a.) all giants get MWP; b.) longspear is a simple weapon. A kind DM might swap if for EWP (greatspear)
• Large humanoid in shape, and can speak: no issues there.

Borderline +0 as a bruiser for me. I'll vote LA -0 for now, although maybe LA +0 in an aquatic campaign.