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  1. - Top - End - #421
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VIII: Way Too Much For Vampirism

    Quote Originally Posted by Zecrin View Post
    I would contend that hide in plain sight is superior to greater invisibility at higher levels because it's not as susceptible to see invisibility, true-seeing, invisibility purge, etc.
    But then, hiding requires an action to re-hide after every attack, whereas greater invisibility simply works all the time (in those cases where it's not countered).

    Incidentally, I just realized that shadow giants qualify for the Primordial Giant template, which grants at-will invisibility. Pretty cool, I'd definitely go for it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zecrin View Post
    I'm also not really sure why we're using warlock as a point of comparison [...]
    Me neither, but Sutr was. (I guess it's because of the epic feat, and because at-will magic is warlocky.)

    I agree with you that shadow giants are more powerful than warlocks, and should be compared to something else, like a sorcerer with a mid-range prestige class (i.e. not Shadowcaster, even though it's a thematic fit). I don't think shadow giants are as powerful as these sorcerers, because the sorcerers have 9th-level spells, casting-related class features, the ability to use metamagic and CL boosters, and the ability to advance their casting.

    Regarding that last point: we shouldn't just look at the monster's performance at its ECL, but also consider the range in which it is likely to be active. For the shadow giant, that is ECL 18-25, say (though you usually start with a class level, so ECL 19). In that range, shades at CL 18 certainly remains relevant, but it does lose some of its shine at later levels. You're not going to qualify for all the nice epic casting feats, your caster level is not going to advance, and you won't learn any new spells... so you're falling behind your caster friends all the time. In extremis, an epic sorcerer can have shades as SLA just like the shadow giant (ECL 33 for a straight sorcerer, but it varies depending on your bonus feat count), whereas the giant won't catch the sorcerer in pure casting, then or later.

    So, looking at my upper tier 4/lower tier 3 warlock, and my tier 2 sorcerer, I conclude that the shadow giant is somewhere between (but perhaps closer to the sorcerer), and at that balance point doesn't need LA +1. A shadow giant is a fine 18th-level caster.

    Assassin is not a good comparison point because it doesn't represent the bulk of the shadow giant's abilities, that is, its shades SLA. Yes, it's stupid, but with 90% of the monster's power locked into that one SLA, it's not really fair or useful to select a comparison point that reflects 7 p.p. of the other abilities, even if those are flavorful and easy to match with a PrC. (Another reason might be that shadow giants don't have classic rogue skills, like Spot, Listen, Tumble, UMD, Search, Disable Device, Open Lock, etcetera. They just have Hide and Move Silently, really. But, like I said, that represents only a small part of their overall power, so it's not as relevant when picking a comparison point.)
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  2. - Top - End - #422
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VIII: Way Too Much For Vampirism

    Well, Practiced Magic is always a thing, and an orange prism ioun stone and the Primordial Giant template could help too.

    I would like to remind you all that the Warlock feat that grants at-will Shades, Shadowmaster, is an EPIC feat. I wouldn’t say it’s enough to compare to a Sorcerer, but a Warlock or Binder should be close enough.
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  3. - Top - End - #423
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VIII: Way Too Much For Vampirism

    Quote Originally Posted by ExLibrisMortis View Post
    Assassin is not a good comparison point because it doesn't represent the bulk of the shadow giant's abilities, that is, its shades SLA. Yes, it's stupid, but with 90% of the monster's power locked into that one SLA, it's not really fair or useful to select a comparison point that reflects 7 p.p. of the other abilities, even if those are flavorful and easy to match with a PrC. (Another reason might be that shadow giants don't have classic rogue skills, like Spot, Listen, Tumble, UMD, Search, Disable Device, Open Lock, etcetera. They just have Hide and Move Silently, really. But, like I said, that represents only a small part of their overall power, so it's not as relevant when picking a comparison point.)
    Let's perform a thought experiment. If there were a monster that had all the same traits as a human rogue (skill points, hp, sneak attack, trap sense, etc.) but could also use wish 3/day as an SLA, would you say we should measure this creature's LA using rogue or sorcerer?

  4. - Top - End - #424
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VIII: Way Too Much For Vampirism

    Quote Originally Posted by Zecrin View Post
    Let's perform a thought experiment. If there were a monster that had all the same traits as a human rogue (skill points, hp, sneak attack, trap sense, etc.) but could also use wish 3/day as an SLA, would you say we should measure this creature's LA using rogue or sorcerer?
    Neither, really, because too powerful for rogue and not enough SLAs for Sorcerer comparison. Besides, most monsters, if any, aren’t nearly as identical to a standard PC like that.
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  5. - Top - End - #425
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VIII: Way Too Much For Vampirism

    Quote Originally Posted by Zecrin View Post
    Let's perform a thought experiment. If there were a monster that had all the same traits as a human rogue (skill points, hp, sneak attack, trap sense, etc.) but could also use wish 3/day as an SLA, would you say we should measure this creature's LA using rogue or sorcerer?
    This isn't a good comparison though. Its at will which can change the game significantly, as you showed. It also has reach, strength con and +8 to its casting stat. Which make it a very different monster.


    Also the hit die discrepency on the bog giant mine says 8 hit die as well.

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VIII: Way Too Much For Vampirism

    Quote Originally Posted by Zecrin View Post
    Let's perform a thought experiment. If there were a monster that had all the same traits as a human rogue (skill points, hp, sneak attack, trap sense, etc.) but could also use wish 3/day as an SLA, would you say we should measure this creature's LA using rogue or sorcerer?
    To be frank a level 18 rogue/assassin build is hands down better at being a rogue than the shadow giant, at these levels the rogue using a wand of polymorph is easily on the table so the giant's physical ability scores and size can for the most part be ignored. As such the fact that Shadow is missing the rogue's skill list, skill points, 5d6 SA, and the versatility of the assassin's spell list stands out as a glaring issue; without shadow conjuration and shades the Shadow Giant is an easy -0 in comparison to a rogue/assassin. And with shadow conjuration and shades the rogue/assassin isn't a very good comparison point as most likely the Shadow will be going heavy into battlefield control while hiding in the shadows instead of stealth assassin...

    I believe the sorcerer or warlock does seem to be a much better comparison point.
    Last edited by liquidformat; 2020-03-18 at 10:15 AM.

  7. - Top - End - #427
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VIII: Way Too Much For Vampirism

    Seems to me the Shadow Giant should be compared against a limited-fixed-list caster like beguiler or dread necro. It's got a high-power spell niche and it has a few other perks besides, like such classes. With the number of things summoning spells can do, its "niche" is broader than some but still not as broad as a full caster who can do shades and also other kinds of spells.

    Kinda hard to judge the LA because I haven't seen a level 18 beguiler or dread necro in play. My underinformed opinion and my vote: LA +1. It doesn't seem like you'd be behind an equally optimized 19th level beguiler in what problems you can address.
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VIII: Way Too Much For Vampirism

    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post
    Too powerful for rogue
    Which in my mind means that the Shadow Giant deserves a high LA, not that it should be compared to a more powerful class and thus receive a lower LA.

    If the shadow giant shared more features with a sorcerer than an assassin, then I would argue that we should compare the creature to a sorcerer.

    However, the creature's BAB, HP, skill list, sneak attack, death attack, racial skill bonuses, and weapon proficiencies are all more in line with the rogue / assassin.

    My rogue with wishes example was to illustrate this: we've stopped looking at the majority of a monster's features to determine what class those features line up with. Instead, we take the most powerful feature, and say "this ability places the monster in tier X."

    When a monster has a single powerful feature, like wish as an SLA, some argue that despite its full base attack bonus, fighter saving throws, and several combat bonus feats, that monster couldn't possibly be compared to a fighter; it's simply to powerful.

    Almost universally, this leads to monsters that are like fighters or like rogues but have some single, very powerful ability, receiving a lower LA than if they were simply a slightly better version of whatever class they are being compared to.

    While the Shadow Giant certainly isn't quite as good at "assassinating" as an assassin, it can come fairly close before optimization enters play. If we're going to say that people can play a character slightly worse at assassination but substantially better at almost everything else (from buffing to battlefield controlling) without taking on any LA, then, in this case, we are balancing against an average tier 2 build, not around a most similar class. I was under the impression that when we decided to compare monsters to the most similar class and not to an average tier 3 build, we did so to avoid rebalancing the game.

    However, I can also understand the perspective of people who argue that certain classes better simulate how the shadow giant will actually behave in play. Indeed, this perspective is just as legitimate if not more so than my own. Yet, when we do turn to something like a warlock, sorcerer, or binder as a point of comparison, we make an assumption that the Shadow Giant will pretty much only ever spam the shades SLA, which for people on this forum, who tend to play optimally, is not a bad assumption to make.

    However, under this framework, I think that Shadow Giant deserves to be more carefully compared to binder and warlock. Is the binder really more powerful? After all, he lacks access to the various creation spells which lend the Shadow Giant much of his viability. Can we account for the Warlocks epic feats, or are we looking only at the standard 1-20 level continuum? Without taking a more in-depth look at these comparisons, we can't really know what would be an appropriate LA.

  9. - Top - End - #429
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VIII: Way Too Much For Vampirism

    I think I am changing to +1. At will access to the arguable best spells from the best class list is pretty nice. Barring 9ths but still. As a standard action to boot.

  10. - Top - End - #430
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VIII: Way Too Much For Vampirism

    Quote Originally Posted by Inevitability View Post
    but it's at-will Shadow Conjuration and Shades that let you get truly crazy.
    Just want to point out that it's Shadow Evocation and Shades. And that, I think, is the line between +0 and +1. Mark me down for the latter.
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    Post Re: The LA-assignment thread VIII: Way Too Much For Vampirism

    Shadow Giant

    • Huge Giant with 15 ft reach.
    • 18 RHD (d8hp, medium BAB, one good save, 2 skill points/level).
    • 50 ft speed: not bad.
    • +17 natural AC: also not bad.
    • Death attack: as the assassin ability (a marrulurk can get this for 3RHD and LA +1, just as an aside).
    • Rock throwing: 1d6? Meh.
    • Sneak attack: 4d6 - as a 7th level rogue.
    • SLAs: at will - blur, deeper darkness, shades, shadow evocation, shadow walk. Shades is the real star of the show, of course. Being able to spam any 8th level or lower Sor/Wiz conjuation spell at 80% efficacy is a big deal. As others have said, roughly comparable to an epic warlock feat.
    • Blindsight, low-light vision: blindsight is always nice.
    • Hide in plain sight: nice.
    • Rock catching: situational at best.
    • Light sensitivity: can be overcome with a cheap mundane item.
    • Str +26, Dex +6, Con +16, Wis +4, Cha +8: net +60, no penalties. Nice. Shame Int isn't higher, if you're aiming to be a skillmonkey. Still, primordial is an option.
    • Short-ish but decent list of racial skills. +4/+8 to hide - helps offset the penalty for being huge.
    • Humanoid (huge) in shape and can speak.

    This is an interesting one. Doesn't really directly compare to any one class. If not for the SLAs, it would be easy to call this a poor man's rogue with ability boosts. The drawback, of course, is 18 lost class levels - and you can do a LOT with 18 levels. Still, can't discount the ability to spam Shades at will. I think I'll agree with others who have said LA +1.

  12. - Top - End - #432
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VIII: Way Too Much For Vampirism

    Bog giant gets -0.

    Shadow giant votes are somewhat divided, but ultimately unambiguously point to +1.
    +0: liquidformat, Exlibris
    +1: Sutr, Dimers, Efrate, Thurbane
    +2: Zecrin
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  13. - Top - End - #433
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VIII: Way Too Much For Vampirism

    Not too disappointed, really - WotC’s rule of thumb for a lot of PC races with LA was CR +1, so it’s not really inconsistent, and less sneak attack can be made up fairly easily with a MUCH higher Strength.
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  14. - Top - End - #434
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VIII: Way Too Much For Vampirism

    Golem


    Are you a high-level caster? Do you have 50000 GP of crafting materials lying around? Do you hate having XP? Call today, and get free instructions to build your own golem!

    Blood Golem of Hextor

    10 construct HD, bad stats (apart from Strength), and no special abilities other than Whirlwind Attack But Worse. The ability to heal using the absorbed blood of corpses is interesting, but it doesn't elevate this above -0 LA.

    Brain Golem

    Even if you ignore the questionable logistics (how many people do you have to kill for one of those again?), the brain golem isn't all that good. 1/minute Mind Blast and permanent force armor aren't worth the 12 RHD, terrible stats, and weak slam. It doesn't even get Magic Immunity!

    Demonflesh Golem

    A wide array of abilities and immunities, even a pretty interesting autonomous claw attack and some neat SLAs, but ultimately not worth the 24 construct HD. -0 LA.

    Hellfire Golem

    It's like the worst of a blaster and a brute stapled to 20 construct RHD. If you want to play with hellfire, just be one of the devils that gets to. -0 LA.
    Last edited by Inevitability; 2020-03-20 at 07:52 AM.
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  15. - Top - End - #435
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VIII: Way Too Much For Vampirism

    Serious question: are golems arguably worth it? I mean, not really from a PC perspective, but most people who make golems usually aren't terribly adventurous and tend to have a base of operation. The blood golems in particular actually aren't too hard to make if you use the sidebar for them.
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  16. - Top - End - #436
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VIII: Way Too Much For Vampirism

    All those golems are clear -0. They offer a bunch of nothing for too many hd.

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VIII: Way Too Much For Vampirism

    Poor sad golems. It's not their fault they're awful. They're built that way.

  18. - Top - End - #438
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VIII: Way Too Much For Vampirism

    I'm not sure any of these are worth anything other than LA -0.

    I may do a detailed breakdown, but most likely not.

  19. - Top - End - #439
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VIII: Way Too Much For Vampirism

    The only golems that seem readily playable are from MM5. This is not MM5. -0

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VIII: Way Too Much For Vampirism

    straight forward -0 across the board.

  21. - Top - End - #441
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VIII: Way Too Much For Vampirism

    Get out there and vote, guys! Every vote matters!

    Well, except when you're voting for golem LAs, because eighty votes for -0 is about the same as six votes for -0.

    Oh, and my vote is LA -0 for all four of these golems.

    Also,the designers really jumped the shark with the brain golem. If you've got a diet as highly restricted as a mind flayer's, it seems unlikely that you'll have so much surplus food that you'll be willing to earmark a few thousand pounds of it for construction of disposable golem minions.

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VIII: Way Too Much For Vampirism

    Quote Originally Posted by Blue Jay View Post
    Also,the designers really jumped the shark with the brain golem. If you've got a diet as highly restricted as a mind flayer's, it seems unlikely that you'll have so much surplus food that you'll be willing to earmark a few thousand pounds of it for construction of disposable golem minions.
    On the other hand, it probably makes for a great display of wealth.
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VIII: Way Too Much For Vampirism

    Quote Originally Posted by PoeticallyPsyco View Post
    On the other hand, it probably makes for a great display of wealth.
    That’s most golems in general, I think. Unless you’re selling them like Gribwiggler from OotS.

    Incidentally, don’t Elder Brains have the ability to make these without crafting them or something? Maybe some crafting-inclined flayer thought “hey, how can we make those without the Elder Brain having to do it?” or something.
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VIII: Way Too Much For Vampirism

    Also,the designers really jumped the shark with the brain golem. If you've got a diet as highly restricted as a mind flayer's, it seems unlikely that you'll have so much surplus food that you'll be willing to earmark a few thousand pounds of it for construction of disposable golem minions.
    When your as powerful as a mind flayer, there is always going to be enough food.
    Want to make a couple additional golem minions? go steal another peasant village.

    And as such, if you ignore the massively inflated cost, then golem minions are immensely practical.
    Dont sleep, dont eat, dont grow bored guarding you, while being 100% loyal.

    Only issue i see is mostly why the heck not make another golem.
    But perhaps brain golems are one of the stronger golems you get that dont go berserk?
    Dont know if there are any golem type it makes more sense for illithids to make.
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VIII: Way Too Much For Vampirism

    Half-Fey


    Out of all the possible creatures to showcase, they went for a half-fey centaur? Not gonna lie, there's some troubling implications there.

    Anyway, half-fey is a pretty well-known template. It grants a neat mix of ability boosts (though sadly including a constitution drop), flight, immunity to all enchantment spells, and scaling SLAs. Said SLAs are pretty nifty, so I'll go with the generally agreed-upon value of +2.

    While I don't expect this rating to change, I'm open to arguments for anything else.
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VIII: Way Too Much For Vampirism

    Quote Originally Posted by Inevitability View Post
    Half-Fey
    I know people rarely considers physics when designing flying fantasy creatures but this poor thing must be one of the most extreme examples. It looks like it needs divine intervention just to keep the wings from tearing themselves apart trying to stay in the air.

    Also, I absolutely love it in all its absurd glory.
    Last edited by Batcathat; 2020-03-24 at 06:35 AM.

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VIII: Way Too Much For Vampirism

    I mean, fey are probably even less scrupulous than humans in regard to how half-fey are born, and we know how often they end up having inter-species relationships! I’m not even surprised, really!
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VIII: Way Too Much For Vampirism

    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post
    I mean, fey are probably even less scrupulous than humans in regard to how half-fey are born, and we know how often they end up having inter-species relationships! I’m not even surprised, really!
    I have to assume the mother was a centaur because otherwise ouch. Anyways I am comfortable with +2 LA like our other halfs and phrenic...

  29. - Top - End - #449
    Troll in the Playground
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VIII: Way Too Much For Vampirism

    +2 is good for me. Decent stat mods, good non-magical flight, lovely SLAs, and a spiffy immunity.

  30. - Top - End - #450
    Titan in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VIII: Way Too Much For Vampirism

    Hey, the official LA is the same as Inevitability’s estimate. Not another “end of reason, flying pigs” scenario I have somewhere in my extended signature, but just interesting.

    I wonder if it’s in part because the abilities are almost strictly focused on the SLAs like Phrenic? With Half-Celestial and Half-Fiend, to say nothing of Half-Dragon, they tend to also have improved face-smashing capabilities as well as a variety of SLAs. Phrenic and Half-Fey don’t really have that.
    Cool elan Illithid Slayer by linkele.

    Editor/co-writer of Magicae Est Potestas, a crossover between Artemis Fowl and Undertale. Ao3 FanFiction.net DeviantArt
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    Currently playing: Red Hand of Doom(campaign journal) Campaign still going on, but journal discontinued until further notice.

    Quote Originally Posted by Squire Doodad View Post
    I could write a lengthy explanation, but honestly just what danielxcutter said.
    Extended sig here.

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