The LA-assignment thread VIII: Way Too Much For Vampirism

[Dimers]

I think "lots of casting of mid- and high-level spells" compares to a sorcerer or maybe a wilder. The wastrilith has less flexibility than a human sorcerer, but infinite spell slots is nice when so many SLAs are applicable to adventuring. I'm basing my vote on poor tier 2 or high tier 3.

Teleport, telekinesis, telepathy, suggestion, greater dispel, tongues and a wad of skill points can address a wide variety of noncombat problems. Unhallow as an SLA (no material component) might have some very interesting benefits depending on GM's ruling about attaching spells -- I mean, you can carpet huge areas with area buffs/debuffs if you don't have to cast the attached spell. Blasphemy won't do much at that CL, so combat options are mostly weak; telekinesis is probably the best at-will, but there are enough summonIXes to last an adventuring day.

Hit points, saves, AC, other defenses, BAB are all good, though that fact doesn't give you an active role to fill.

Eh, I can see this contributing a fair share in any not-humongously-optimized T2/T3 level 17 party (assuming alignment isn't an issue). I'll say weak +2 LA.

Question: is there any RAW reason a "monster" couldn't take Apprentice (spellcaster) as its 1HD feat to get UMD as a class skill (for a few HD anyway)? I mean fluff-wise it seems a bit naff, but is it allowable under RAW?

"As with the Leadership feat, apprenticeship depends heavily on the social setting of the campaign, the actual location of the PC, and the group dynamics. You’re free to disallow this feat if it would disrupt the campaign." Beyond that boilerplate, the only potential barrier I see is the mechanics of tithing. You have to pay before going up a level, and it's questionable whether a wastrilith starts its existence with a single hit die, so that may just not be possible.

[danielxcutter]

Question: is there any RAW reason a "monster" couldn't take Apprentice (spellcaster) as its 1HD feat to get UMD as a class skill (for a few HD anyway)? I mean fluff-wise it seems a bit naff, but is it allowable under RAW?

Depends on what monster I guess. There have been "canon" NPC examples of swapping out stock feats, so a monster raised by a caster - either adopted or their parent figure(s) had levels in spellcasting classes et al. - might very well be able to get this feat, fluff-wise.

[liquidformat]

I am comfortable with +0 for the handless fish bird demon, sure Summon Monster IX is a 9th level spell but when Elder water elemental (CR11) is topping your list of summon-able creatures I would argue that is no longer a 9th level spell. Also as a player I don't actually see myself wasting the action to use it unless I purely need a meat shield... Beyond that if not for the decent SLA list this thing would hands down be -0.

Question: is there any RAW reason a "monster" couldn't take Apprentice (spellcaster) as its 1HD feat to get UMD as a class skill (for a few HD anyway)? I mean fluff-wise it seems a bit naff, but is it allowable under RAW?

I would agree with danielxcutter and say it is very monster specific/ possibly background specific. Specifically for demons and devils I would say no because of the fact that they don't start as baby fiends but just other types of fiends...

[danielxcutter]

I am comfortable with +0 for the handless fish bird demon, sure Summon Monster IX is a 9th level spell but when Elder water elemental (CR11) is topping your list of summon-able creatures I would argue that is no longer a 9th level spell. Also as a player I don't actually see myself wasting the action to use it unless I purely need a meat shield... Beyond that if not for the decent SLA list this thing would hands down be -0.

Well, if you're playing one, chances are that you're in an aquatic campaign, and if you are Elder Water Elementals aren't half bad. Plus I'm pretty sure there are other decently useful creatures you can pull out from lower-level lists.

I would agree with danielxcutter and say it is very monster specific/ possibly background specific. Specifically for demons and devils I would say no because of the fact that they don't start as baby fiends but just other types of fiends...

Since a demon lord or the Abyss itself can "evolve" a demon, perhaps a specific fiend could have been evolved with such feats... though that's probably stretching it a bit, yeah.

[Thurbane]

Well, as per the monster description, a Wastrilith can be Summoned with Summon Monster IX, and it has the Aquatic subtype, so...summon another you?

Downside is if you flub the opposed Wisdom check it will attack you instead of the enemy!

[Inevitability]

Well, as per the monster description, a Wastrilith can be Summoned with Summon Monster IX, and it has the Aquatic subtype, so...summon another you?

Downside is if you flub the opposed Wisdom check it will attack you instead of the enemy!

While the idea of wastriliths summoning wastriliths (who then summon more wastriliths to kill whatever they want dead) is hilarious, sadly WotC saw this coming and prevented all summoned creatures from summoning creatures themselves.

[danielxcutter]

While the idea of wastriliths summoning wastriliths (who then summon more wastriliths to kill whatever they want dead) is hilarious, sadly WotC saw this coming and prevented all summoned creatures from summoning creatures themselves.

Yeah, but even summoning one Wastrilith is pretty nice. I mean, I'm pretty sure their CR was lowered from their original CR 17 in the FCI, but they could be pretty useful, wouldn't they?

[ViperMagnum357]

While the idea of wastriliths summoning wastriliths (who then summon more wastriliths to kill whatever they want dead) is hilarious, sadly WotC saw this coming and prevented all summoned creatures from summoning creatures themselves.

Well, if you can call them they can use their summoning. The original version of Orcus in Dungeon Magazine 89 could call Demons and Undead that would be able use their summoning in turn; 1d2 Balors once per hour, and an Atropal once per day provide plenty of summoning reinforcements.

[Thurbane]

While the idea of wastriliths summoning wastriliths (who then summon more wastriliths to kill whatever they want dead) is hilarious, sadly WotC saw this coming and prevented all summoned creatures from summoning creatures themselves.

Yeah, but even summoning one Wastrilith is pretty nice. I mean, I'm pretty sure their CR was lowered from their original CR 17 in the FCI, but they could be pretty useful, wouldn't they?

This - I wasn't thinking about chain summoning, just that a Wastrilith may be a better summons than an Elder Elemental. Risky though, with their weird "break summoning" ability.

[Inevitability]

+1 for wastrilith, next are devas.

[Inevitability]

Deva

Double update!

The fiend folio gives us two devas: the stronger monadic ones, tasked with guarding the elemental planes, and the weaker movanic, who can be found on the material and energy planes.

Monadic Deva

10 RHD, with all the traits you'd expect of a mid-level celestial. 90 ft. fly speed is impressive, DR 10/evil sure to come in handy, and all-around good stats (+6 to +10 bonuses) are neat to have. SR 22 has its uses.

Immunity to acid, cold, electricty, fire, planar effects, suffocation, death effects, ability drain, ability damage, and energy drain makes for an impressive list of things that you get to no-sell, especially combined with the innate Magic Circle Against Evil and Minor Globe of Invulnerability all devas can project. Flanking should be less of an issue for you than for many other characters, but Uncanny Dodge still has its uses, too.

Most important, however, is the enormous list of SLAs. Naming them all would take too much time, but the highlights include at-will Create Food and Water, Hold Monster, and Polymorph, 3/day Dispel Magic and Plane Shift, and 1/day Commune and Raise Dead, with many less important spells to round this out.

The monadic deva offers a strong chassis, as well as a good array of magic, and I could easily see one outperforming an at-level cleric in many respects. However, the lack of true casting limits its advancement, as well as its flexibility. Even so, +2 is fair.

Movanic Deva

Only 6 RHD, but similar to monadics in many respects. DR 10/evil is still there, SR has been slightly downgraded to 19, and the ability to survive elemental planes now protects against those with positive or negative energy. The energy immunities are mostly still there, but the fire immunity is now merely resistance 20 (ironically, the devas with actual flaming swords are more vulnerable to fire). Ability scores are still uniformly boosted, just to a smaller extent.

Soothing Presence of Nature prevents all plants and animals from attacking the deva unless magically compelled (by RAW, this applies even while you are slowly beating them to death), which is good enough to autowin you some encounters. Heavenly Deflection is either a neat ability that allows you to no-sell one targeted ranged attack per turn (provided you make a moderately hard reflex save), or it's a ridiculously niche perk that forces you into using a very specific weapon.

The spell-likes are once more plentiful, and many of the monadic's stronger ones (at-will Polymorph, 3/day Plane Shift, 1/day Commune and Raise Dead) are available here as well. In light of that, I think +2 is the very minimum here, with a strong case for +3 to be made.


Do discuss!

[Blue Jay]

I think I like LA +1 LA +2 for the monadic deva and LA +2 for the movanic deva.

One minor note is that I think the standard practice with the 3.5e update is to replace polymorph self SLAs with a Change Shape (Su) ability, so I'd recommend assuming that that's the case for the movanic deva. It's not in the update booklet that I can see, but it is consistent with all the other monsters that had polymorph self in 3.0e (including the especially-relevant astral deva), and the Realms Helps also site made the change. Personally, I'd probably make that change for games I run, but I think I'm still voting for +2 on the movanic deva, either way.

[Efrate]

Moandic gets +1. Its very good out the gate, d10 hd, full bab, all good saves and a ton of skills, huge list of nope, and at will polymorph with full bab is a phenominal buff that is literally always able to be up.

The 6hd one is troublesome, but I think +2 is fair. It is a pretty good +2 but I do not think it crosses into +3.

[Mike Miller]

I vote +2 for both devas.

[TotallyNotEvil]

I'd be fine with +2 for both, and this is as low as I'd go for the Movanic.

To elaborate, while yes, your advancement isn't as clear-cut as if you had "proper" casting, you are still rocking Ethereal Jaunt, Holy Aura and Plane Shift 3/day for the Monadic, and the Movanic only loses the Aura amongst those big three.

Just the Ethereal Jaunt will do amazing things for you, especially at this level.

Throw in At Will Discern Lies, 3/day Divination and 1/day Commune for both, and they are pretty damn good at information gathering.

Outsider HD and +6 INT, with quite a few very good skills, means it's also very well covered in that front.

Good STR bonus (+6/+10) and full BAB means being a good meleer is as simple as picking up PA. You might well be outperforming a Barbarian here, your racial STR giving a better bonus than his Rage and being on all the time.

And then there's Immunities: Yes.

[Mystic Muse]

+1 LA and +2 LA from me.

[ViperMagnum357]

+1 LA and +2 LA from me.

Same here.

[TotallyNotEvil]

I think the post describing them is seriously doing it a disservice by ignoring they both get Ethereal Jaunt, especially 3/day. That alone completely changes the calculus.

And Holy Aura is a very, very good buff: +4 Resistance and Deflection with no alignment limitation, SR 25 against evil creatures and spells, protection from mind ****ery as Prot From Evil, and to take it home they save against blindness every time they attack you or your friends.

That's a Lv 8 buff, and well worth its level. The Monadic can pop that bad boy on the whole party more or less every fight.

Their CRs are 9 and 12. LAs of +3 and +2 are honestly not out of the question here, tho I believe people will balk at +3 without casting.

But being able to, among other things, Raise Dead without material component at the same time (or even before, with +2) than a full cleric is fantastic.

Let's not undersell the Monadic Deva here: it's immune to four elements, petrification, has built-in Death Ward (and can buff the whole party with it due having it at will). Pop a Holy Aura, and your most likely foes will have a whole lot of trouble hitting you with anything due the big buffs to your AC and Saves (on top of your naturally good numbers), and the very high SR for its level. And if they do, they are very likely ****ed due the perma blindness. A Boss level caster might be breaking even on the SR.

The Protective Aura will also insulate against a lot of annoying but effective (and potentially numerous, due your relative levels) effects.

[Blue Jay]

Yeah, I think I kind of skipped the monadic deva because the movanic was more interesting to me.

I think I'm changing my vote for monadic to +2 (updated in my previous post).

[Lans]

+2 for both, unless its polymorph self was errated to just polymorph then make it 3

[danielxcutter]

Hey, Monadic Devas have Spellcraft as a RHD class skill! Hello, Practiced Magic!

[Unavenger]

+2 for both. I've played a movanic and I can attest that they're strong enough to deserve a +2, and the monadic's also very good for its HD.

[danielxcutter]

+2 for both. I've played a movanic and I can attest that they're strong enough to deserve a +2, and the monadic's also very good for its HD.

Oh, did you? What build did you go for? These kind of accounts should help a lot, shouldn't they?

[Unavenger]

Oh, did you? What build did you go for? These kind of accounts should help a lot, shouldn't they?

Outsider 6/Paladin 2/Emissary of Barachiel 10 is what I was angling for - you end up with full BAB, divine grace, and fourth-level casting. I don't think I ever made it to 18th level, but it's a solid build.

[danielxcutter]

Outsider 6/Paladin 2/Emissary of Barachiel 10 is what I was angling for - you end up with full BAB, divine grace, and fourth-level casting. I don't think I ever made it to 18th level, but it's a solid build.

Er, Emissary of Barachiel is only a 3/4 BAB class. Still, with the Strength bonus I guess that's somewhat made up for... And it's certainly flavorful, can't deny that in the slightest.

[Unavenger]

Er, Emissary of Barachiel is only a 3/4 BAB class. Still, with the Strength bonus I guess that's somewhat made up for... And it's certainly flavorful, can't deny that in the slightest.

Oh, it must have been one of the other Blah of Name classes. Champion of Gwy[furious keyboard mashing] maybe? It's been a while since I played that character...

[danielxcutter]

Oh, it must have been one of the other Blah of Name classes. Champion of Gwy[furious keyboard mashing] maybe? It's been a while since I played that character...

Seriously, that prestige class series really does make sense for a celestial...

[Blue Jay]

+2 for both, unless its polymorph self was errated to just polymorph then make it 3

There wasn't any real errata for Fiend Folio, but the astral deva's polymorph self was revised to Change Shape (Small or Medium humanoid), so that's probably what the movanic deva should get too.

[Prime32]

Heavenly Deflection is either a neat ability that allows you to no-sell one targeted ranged attack per turn (provided you make a moderately hard reflex save), or it's a ridiculously niche perk that forces you into using a very specific weapon.

Once per round as a free action, a movanic deva can deflect ranged attacks and certain spells by batting them away with its +1 flaming greatsword.

Sounds like it's referring to the weapon the deva comes with, and you'd retain the benefit even if you upgrade its properties. Which isn't hard, since you qualify for both Craft Magic Arms and Armor and Ancestral Relic.

Also worth noting: this is the same mechanic as 3.0 Deflect Arrows + the Exceptional Deflection epic feat, just with "must hold your sword" in place of "must have a free hand". So in a 3.5 update you wouldn't even need to succeed on a Reflex save. A generous DM might even let you apply things like Reflect Arrows to it.

[Inevitability]

+2 LA for both! Next monster will be soon: another double update.