The LA-assignment thread VIII: Way Too Much For Vampirism

[Thurbane]

Is this based on some obscure myth or is this an original D&D creature?

I'm about 95% certain its a D&D original; a quick Google search shows nothing, and referring to my copy of The Element Encyclopedia of Magical Creatures shows nothing either (unless its under a completely different name).

[danielxcutter]

Huh, neat.

Anyways, I don’t think anyone’s addressed the “how good is it for it’s CR?” question yet. Considering that it’s CR 13 and I’ve seen at least one person saying that the abilities match up with that range, I guess it works?

[Inevitability]

Imps

Everyone's favorite devil, now with variants!

Fiend Folio imps have a couple traits in common: they can all see in darkness, polymorph into animal forms (I'll just assume something like boar/spider and raven), and they also all have Regeneration. The last one is only overcome by acid (very uncommon) and holy/blessed silver/enchanted weapons.

Bloodbag Imp

These diabolical medpacks have 4 outsider RHD, reasonably balanced stats with a constitution focus, 40 ft. flight, DR 5/silver, SR 6, and a weak bite that injects some strength-damaging poison.

Their main offensive ability is Wounding Curse, which can 3/day inflict a curse on a creature that makes all of its melee injuries bleed for a while (so 1 damage/round until healing is applied or a Heal check is made). It's pretty okay, but it won't add up to more than a few points of damage in most cases (and anything that is getting hit ten times a round has bigger problems generally).

Bloodbag imps can also live up to their name and transfer health into another creature. This heals them for one HP per round, while the imp loses two, but with Regeneration being a thing it's not really an issue. Getting to heal the entire party back up to full between combats is pretty great, even if it might take a while (healing 3 others 100 HP each will take half an hour).

Finally, SLAs. The imps get at-will Detect Good, Detect Magic, and self-only Invisibility, as well as Vampiric Touch 1/day. Detect Magic and Invisibility are pretty great, the other two are decent.

Bloodbag imps slightly struggle to find a fitting class, but can probably make a decent skillmonkey or swordsage. Their innate abilities are good enough that I'm willing to assign +1 for now.

Euphoric Imp

Remember kids! Drugs aren't just bad, they're (Evil)!

Euphoric imps, like the bloodbag counterparts, have 4 RHD. Their stats are somewhat worse, and focus on intelligence for some reason. They get the default package of imp traits, SR, DR, fire resistance, flight, and the same SLAs as the bloodbag except with Major Image replacing Vampiric Touch (honestly, probably better).

Their main mode of attack, as well as special ability, is a weak sting that injects hallucinogenic poison. The save DC is pretty low, but the effect is amazing: it dazes foes for 2d6 rounds. Furthermore, looking at the ability again it doesn't seem to explicitly be a poison either.

With their great save-or-suck sting, and generally neat utility SLAs, I'm more than comfortable assigning +1 here.

Filth Imp

Only 2 RHD, high constitution and intelligence (but terrible charisma), two claws as natural weapons (that carry disease, but nobody cares about disease), and special abilities that mostly center around creating Stinking Clouds.

Filth imps are hardly as good as their less smelly brethren, but having only half their RHD makes me feel like +2 is in order here.



Do discuss!

[Thurbane]

Did the Regeneration get changed to Fast Healing to be inline with the 3.5 core Imp?

If not, then wow. The good old core Imp scored LA +1 as is...Regeneration is pretty darn powerful!

[danielxcutter]

Did the Regeneration get changed to Fast Healing to be inline with the 3.5 core Imp?

If not, then wow. The good old core Imp scored LA +1 as is...Regeneration is pretty darn powerful!

1) I’m pretty sure the update booklet only fixed DR, and even then I think there were monsters that slipped through the cracks, and 2) I don’t see how Regeneration is that better than Fast Healing unless you can get immunity to nonlethal damage or something. I suppose it’s much better at low levels where it’s easier to go into negatives. Or well, low-ish levels; in the game I’m in I took two blows from an ogre (presumably one with class levels) and went from full to only about 10 hit points. Granted, I’m mostly a Sorcerer and only have 13 Con, but we’re using “1st HD is maxed and others are 3/4 max” for our hit points.

Incidentally, I believe the reason for the Bloodbag Imps is because “nobody in Baator can cast healing spells”. Was the Cure X Wounds line [Good] back in 3.5e?

[Sutr]

1) I’m pretty sure the update booklet only fixed DR, and even then I think there were monsters that slipped through the cracks, and 2) I don’t see how Regeneration is that better than Fast Healing unless you can get immunity to nonlethal damage or something. I suppose it’s much better at low levels where it’s easier to go into negatives. Or well, low-ish levels; in the game I’m in I took two blows from an ogre (presumably one with class levels) and went from full to only about 10 hit points. Granted, I’m mostly a Sorcerer and only have 13 Con, but we’re using “1st HD is maxed and others are 3/4 max” for our hit points.

On Regeneration
Its pretty much that you also don't die ever. You'll certainly get knocked out. Most monsters won't have the opportunity to coup de grace, unless its a TPK threat, and most won't be able to do the right kind of damage. I've got to look at these to see the bypass condition to rate them though.

[Blue Jay]

I like LA +1 for all of the imps.

These are my votes:

LA +1 for the bloodbag
LA +1 for the euphoric imp
LA +2 for the filth imp

[Thurbane]

1) I’m pretty sure the update booklet only fixed DR, and even then I think there were monsters that slipped through the cracks, and 2) I don’t see how Regeneration is that better than Fast Healing unless you can get immunity to nonlethal damage or something. I suppose it’s much better at low levels where it’s easier to go into negatives.

On Regeneration
Its pretty much that you also don't die ever. You'll certainly get knocked out. Most monsters won't have the opportunity to coup de grace, unless its a TPK threat, and most won't be able to do the right kind of damage.

^^ This.

Almost no PC will be adventuring solo. For low-mid levels it's certainly easier to deal with a comrade unconscious from nonlethal damage, than trying to fork out for a Raise Dead or Reincarnation.

Unless its a TPK, there's almost zero risk of death when you have Regeneration, except in the odd fight when the enemy is using something that overcomes it. How much fun is being an adventurer with most/all of the risk removed?

I'm waiting for some more comments and debate before I weigh in with a score, but I can't see myself giving an less that a full +1 more that what the standard Imp got (i.e +1 for normal Imp, +2 for these Imps).

[Efrate]

+1 for all of them. Maybe +2 on the 2 hd one. How much con and int? Not a full caster obviously but those are two stats I like a lot of on any character.

[Debatra]

I'm waiting for some more comments and debate before I weigh in with a score, but I can't see myself giving an less that a full +1 more that what the standard Imp got (i.e +1 for normal Imp, +2 for these Imps).

Well the Bloodbag also has one more RHD than the standard Imp, so +1 LA would put it at +2 ECL.

[Sutr]

+2 bloodbag though it does have another hit die and makes some bad/interesting trades from the standard so this one could go down. A outsider hit die for +2 fast healing turning to regeneration and healing the party is an extremely good level.

Europhoric makes better trades and +2 seems easier the hallacination does not appear to be a poison so 2d6 rounds is basically a save or completely lose.

Filth Imp: is an easy +2 it's trades might be worse but it also looses a hit die. I think comparing to a standard imp it should have the same ecl could go up.

[Thurbane]

• Bloodbag: 4HD, 20 ft/fly 40 ft, +3 natural AC, bite 1d6, poison, spell-like abilities, wounding curse, DR 5/silver, outsider traits, polymorph, regeneration 4, see in darkness, SR 6, transfusion; Dex -2, Con +8, Wis +2, Cha +2
• Euphoric: 4HD, 20 ft/fly 50 ft, +3 natural AC, sting 1d4, hallucinogen, spell-like abilities, Special Qualities: DR 5/silver, fire resistance 20, outsider traits, polymorph, regeneration 3, see in darkness, SR 6; Dex +4, Int +6, Wis -4
• Filth: 2HD, 20 ft/fly 50 ft, +3 natural AC, 2 claws 1d4, diabolical stench, disease, spell-like abilities Special Qualities: DR 5/silver, outsider traits, polymorph, regeneration 2, see in darkness, sonic resistance 20, SR 5; Con +6, Int +6, Wis +2, Cha -6

Each has its own appeal: Bloodbag for OOC healing; Euphoric for its save or lose sting; and Filth for 2 less RHD.

All have SLAs if varying degrees of usefulness. At will Inivisibility is nice, especially at lower levels.

And as I mentioned previously, Regeneration.

+2 bloodbag though it does have another hit die and makes some bad/interesting trades from the standard so this one could go down. A outsider hit die for +2 fast healing turning to regeneration and healing the party is an extremely good level.

Europhoric makes better trades and +2 seems easier the hallacination does not appear to be a poison so 2d6 rounds is basically a save or completely lose.

Filth Imp: is an easy +2 it's trades might be worse but it also looses a hit die. I think comparing to a standard imp it should have the same ecl could go up.

I'm in agreement: mark me down for LA +2/LA+2/LA+2.

Side note: for my own games, as DM, these little buggers will have Fast Healing, to be brought in line with the default 3.5 Imp. The 3.0 Imp had Regeneration; it's a shame these guys weren't updated officially to FH.

[liquidformat]

Bloodbag Imp
Tiny outisder, great hd type and tiny is a very good size to be.
fly 40 (good), this is good
-2 Dex +8 Con +2 Wis +2 Cha Net 10; nice con mod but nothing crazy here for 4hd
+3 NA slightly low for 4 HD should be 4-7 but with tiny side pretty decent
Bite 1d6; very nice damage for tiny hands free for things is nice too
1d4 str Poison Fort 16 DC on bite, not horrible DC for poison but 1d4 str is forgettable
Spell-likes at will, invisibility is always nice so is detect magic, vampiric touch at 1/day is forgettable
Wounding Curse, interesting but at 3/day and DC 13 it is a waste of an action in a level or two.
Transfusion, interesting ability however it requires doing nothing for extended periods of time, requires a conscious recipient, and the wording is a bit strange it seems like if bloodbag falls unconscious it can't use transfusion until at full hp again?
Transformation, regeneration, SR 6, DR 5/silver, see in darkness; SR 6 and DR 5 are forgettable, see in darkness and transformation are nice, regen is very nice.
Skills; weird assortment no hide or move silently, concentration, diplomacy, listen, and spot are good spellcraft seems pretty worthless.

Altogether, transfusion is a novel ability but doesn't seem particularly helpful, its skill set isn't setting it up well for anything in particular and neither are its abilities. It highlight is regeneration 4 with NA3, DR 5, & +8 con which makes it very tanky but with 4 levels already spoken for it doesn't have a great path, swordsage is probably the best path but it just seems kind of meh. Makes a nice familiar for delivering touch spells. All and all I think +1 LA is fine here, it is hard to kill but doesn't have much else going for it.

Euphoric Imp
Tiny outisder, great hd type and tiny is a very good size to be.
fly 50 (perfect), this is very nice
+3 NA slightly low for 4 HD should be 4-7 but with tiny side pretty decent
+4 Dex +6 Int -4Wis Net +6 a bit low for 4hd and a hit to Wis sucks in many ways
Sting 1d4 not horrible for tiny and leaves hands free for other things
Hallucinogen on sting; I would say this is good but with Fort save DC12 I don't think it will be particularly useful.
Spell-like Abilities at will, invisibility is always nice so is detect magic, Major Image CL6 is decent but at once a day it is forgettable.
Transformation, regeneration, SR 6, DR 5/silver, see in darkness, Fire Res 20; SR 6 and DR 5 are forgettable, see in darkness and transformation are nice, regen and Fire res are quite nice
Skill set pretty good skill set well setup to go into rogue or other stealth classes, craft (alchemy) is a cool addition, noticeably missing move silently (always bugs the heck out of me when a monster gets one but not the other...)

hmm this one is a bit hard, better skill set than bog standard imp, worse ability scores note with -4Wis Euphoric Imp is very susceptible to anything with a will save, major image is about the same as suggestion, regen is better than fast healing, fly is the same, one extra hd is worse, fire res is an extra bonus, though hallucinogen is better than poison at DC12 it will be nice once in a blue moon it hits but otherwise forgettable. All and all I think with the worse ability scores and extra hd this still falls into +1 LA when compared to bog standard imp.

Filth Imp
Tiny outisder, great hd type and tiny is a very good size to be.
fly 50 (perfect), this is very nice
+3 NA is good at 2hd
2x claw 1d4, good damage for tiny size
+6 Con +6 Int +2 Wis -6 Cha Net +8, rough hit to Cha guess you won't be going warlock after all but +6 Con/Int is quite nice
Diabolich Stench 3/day stink cloud DC14 for 1 round; on the fence at 3/day DC14 and lasting 1 round this doesn't seem that useful, also it seems to be focused on the filth imp which makes it less useful even on the surprise round.
Disease; nothing to see here move along
Spell-like Abilities at will, invisibility is always nice so is detect magic, 1/day stinking cloud CL6, better than Diabolich stench, useful as crowd control once per day.
Transformation, regeneration, SR 6, DR 5/silver, see in darkness, Sonic Res 20; SR 6 and DR 5 are forgettable, see in darkness and transformation are nice, regen is nice and sonic res is meh not enough monsters and spells doing sonic damage to be that useful
Again the skill set is very well setup for going into rogue.

So Cha is my favorite dump stat even for a social character but at -6 that very easily excludes a lot of nice classes. Most people are probably going rogue with thing little stinker and +6 Con/Int is a definite help so is invisibility and flying, it has a nice list of skills that won't leave in particularly behind for many prcs and DR5 plus NA3 plus regen will help a lot for a melee rogue so will 2 natural attacks. All and all I think this thing will do well as an unarmed swordsage, unarmed rogue, totemist rogue or something similar. After think it over I think it does reach +2 LA though I think it is low end of +2 and honestly not too overpowered at +1 but I think it is just barely better than an Imp so it makes sense for it to come in at the same time as an imp.

[danielxcutter]

You know, I think if the LA for the Filth Imps is +1 or less then it could go for Wizard? I don’t know how the Imps in general would advance as, though - isn’t combat usually the most important factor? I know the Succubus wasn’t really rated based on that, but that’s arguably an obvious social skill type; I believe the comparison was to aquatic creatures not being judged by their inability to breath air. What then, specifically, would be an ideal advancement path for these? They’re hard to hit, but don’t hit that hard either... maybe Warlock?

[Thurbane]

I think they could make decent skillmonkeys, especially the Filth and Euphoric, with their boost to Int. Ability to turn Invisible at will, flight and tiny size doesn't hurt, either.

[Blue Jay]

D'oh! I misread the filth imp as having 3 HD. Yeah, that changes the math. I think it needs an extra point of LA, then: Regeneration, DR, flight, at-will invisibility and 4 stinking cloud-like effects per day (even with DC 8 on the spell-like one)... I think that adds up to ~4 effective levels, though it would obviously have been better off with the extra HD I thought it had.

Some others have also voted +2 for the other two imps. I can see why they voted that way, but I don't think those two quite get there: certainly, they have a lot of good stuff for a sneaky role; but at ECL 5, I think they already give up a good chunk of Sneak Attack damage, and while their skill lists are decent (the euphoric imp, at least), they are noticeably weaker than you'd want for a dedicated skill character. I think a tax of 1 lost Hit Die is enough to balance them out against typical skill monkeys.

I'm going to edit my adjusted vote into my previous post.

[Sutr]

Everyone!!!?!!!!

Did these imps get there shapechanging updated in the update book? They might need an asterisk, I think we all might be self limiting them.

Imp wrote:
Alternate Form (Su)
An imp can assume another form at will as a standard action. Each imp can assume one or two forms from the following list: Small or Medium monstrous spider, raven, rat, and boar.


3.0 imps have polymorph instead of alternate form. 3.0 imps just list the same common forms but technically in filth it says polymorph as a 12 level caster doesn't that mean that it polymorphs into a barbed devil* and wrecks face in the ecl 5 or 6 we are debating. Even if they had to stick to common forms is it enough to dump strength and dex and be a bruiser on top of what they can do?

*had devils open would probably actually use some kind of face-wrecking tiger with pounce.

[danielxcutter]

Hmm... I think maybe we should at least consider how the original monster was changed when looking at these variants? After all, Fiend Folio is a 3.0e book. MMII changed a lot of things in the update booklet, and the update booklet for FF said something more like "the DM should decide what needs changing, so we're just updating the DR for convenience's sake" rather than "these are the only updates we're doing for this book".

[liquidformat]

You know, I think if the LA for the Filth Imps is +1 or less then it could go for Wizard? I don’t know how the Imps in general would advance as, though - isn’t combat usually the most important factor? I know the Succubus wasn’t really rated based on that, but that’s arguably an obvious social skill type; I believe the comparison was to aquatic creatures not being judged by their inability to breath air. What then, specifically, would be an ideal advancement path for these? They’re hard to hit, but don’t hit that hard either... maybe Warlock?

In my mind bloodbag is the hard one to figure out the class for since looses a lot in the skill department compared to the other 3 imps. If it wasn't tiny I would think Crusader could be a pretty good choice for bloodbag but a lot of the good maneuvers don't work on a tiny character, so in the end I think maybe swordsage would be the best choice, maybe dipping totemist to take advantage of its con score. Alternatively many going divine crusader or something like that might be a decent path for this thing.
Neither filth nor Euphoric are great choices for warlock, Euphoric because it is already at least 5 levels down and filth because it has -6 cha. Euphoric is also not a good choice for swordsage since it has -4 wis but does make a pretty good rogue. Filth is probably best suited for a melee rogue either dipping totemist for lots of natural attacks or monk/swordsage for unarmed strikes. Either way both imps have decent skill list for hopping into rogue.

Everyone!!!?!!!!

Did these imps get there shapechanging updated in the update book? They might need an asterisk, I think we all might be self limiting them.

Imp wrote:
Alternate Form (Su)
An imp can assume another form at will as a standard action. Each imp can assume one or two forms from the following list: Small or Medium monstrous spider, raven, rat, and boar.


3.0 imps have polymorph instead of alternate form. 3.0 imps just list the same common forms but technically in filth it says polymorph as a 12 level caster doesn't that mean that it polymorphs into a barbed devil* and wrecks face in the ecl 5 or 6 we are debating. Even if they had to stick to common forms is it enough to dump strength and dex and be a bruiser on top of what they can do?

*had devils open would probably actually use some kind of face-wrecking tiger with pounce.

Well the ability is limited to medium or smaller forms so that is a good start. If we updated these to 3.5 imp that would mean alternate form, fast healing, and see in darkness just becomes darkvision 60'. At that point bloodbag would move to +0 since Transformation is potentially deadly and it looses much of its tankiness, Euphoric is still fine at +1, and I think Filth moves down to +1 too.

[Thurbane]

Huh, never noticed before that the 3.5 Imp is specifically one of those Devils that doesn't get See in Darkness.

Most devils possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry).

• Immunity to fire and poison.
• Resistance to acid 10 and cold 10.
• See in Darkness (Su): Some devils can see perfectly in darkness of any kind, even that created by a deeper darkness spell.
• Summon (Sp): Some devils share the ability to summon others of their kind (the success chance and type of devils summoned are noted in each monster description).
• Telepathy.

[Inevitability]

Imp votes:

Bloodbag:
+1: 3 votes
+2: 2 votes

Euphoric
+1: 3 votes
+2: 2 votes

Filth:
+1: 1 vote
+2: 4 votes

Bloodbag stays at +1, Euphoric becomes +1 as well, Filth becomes +2.

[Inevitability]

Indricowhere?

Indricothere

It's an animal, it's got 16 RHD, and its most impressive ability let's it knock foes back and stun them. Do we really need an in-depth review?

Slightly more detail: indricothere's have high strength, high constitution, low everything else. They attack with two stamps and a headbutt, the latter can inflict the aforementioned knockback/stun effect. Size is huge, speed is a mere 40 ft., and aside from all that the only notable abilities are Scent and Trample.

-0 LA, at least it let me make a dumb joke.

[danielxcutter]

Indricowhere?

Indricothere

slow clapping

[Dimers]

Ooh, does it come with its own angry pink-skinned grunt companion, as shown in the picture? Could be handy ...

[Thurbane]

16HD Animal. LA -0. 'nuff said.

[danielxcutter]

What is that guy on its back, a Hill Giant?

Also the Indricothere is Indrico"not here" for me. LA -0; at least the battletitan was cool.

[Efrate]

-0. And yes that is supposed to be a hill giant iirc.

[Inevitability]

Inevitable

The Fiend Folio introduces two new inevitables, respectively dedicated to preserving Time and Divinity.

Quarut

18 RHD medium-sized constructs with reasonable stats, held back by the lack of anything real high (20 strength and charisma are as high as it gets). The natural slams are unimpressive, though 50 ft. move speed is pretty neat. Other special traits range from reasonable (SR 28) to good (DR 15/Adamantine and Chaos), to great (Fast Healing 15).

SLAs are the meat of this creature (y'know, figuratively). The at-will spells are kind of unimpressive: True Seeing, Haste, and Greater Dispel Magic are good support magic, and Hold Monster has some uses in combat, but Dimension Door is very weak for this level, Circle of Doom (Mass Inflict Light Wounds?) barely does anything, and both Dominate and Locate Person are hilariously niche.

3/day Temporal Stasis is a pretty good save-or-lose, but it requires a touch attack and generally is probably only worth it for real big foes. 1/day Circle of Death, Forcecage, Mark of Justice, self-only Greater Teleport are all pretty neat, 1/day Time Stop makes it even better, and 1/day Limited Wish can get kind of crazy.

Finally, there's Geas/Quest and Plane Shift as 1/week abilities, but those shouldn't be too relevant to a near-epic party.

The quarut's spell assortment is clearly inferior to that of a full caster, and arguably even to that of a fixed-list caster, but it can use several powerful spells without paying their material components and permanently apply several buffs to the party. On the other hand, they struggle with advancing meaningfully, can't do all that much in-combat, and are stuck with a lot of construct RHD. For now, I'll assign +0.

Varakhut

22 RHD this time, with somewhat bigger numbers to show for it. Higher Fast Healing, higher stats, higher natural armor, greater size, higher SR and DR...

Again, the special abilities are what makes or breaks this. Dispelling Blast is a disappointing 3/day mass Dispel, which inconveniently also hits your allies, but the SLAs themselves are great.

Spamming Circle of Death is great against stuff not warded, and Dominate Monster is similarly great at-will. True Seeing and Haste are still good buffs to hand out for free. Dimension Door continues to be a pathetically weak transport option: just let inevitables have Greater Teleport!

3/day the notable spells are Forcecage, Limited Wish, Time Stop, and Greater Teleport, and 1/day the varakhut can shine with Meteor Swarm, Soul Bind, or Wish. The latter, for obvious reasons, arguably catapults this in asterisk territory.

On the one hand, those are some great SLAs with none of the usual costs, but on the other hand 22 RHD is a lot. For now, I'll conservatively assign +0, which makes the assumption that the Wish SLA is removed (or, at least, nerfed). Hopefully this should be able to stack up to a tier 3 epic character.

[danielxcutter]

Before anyone mentions the supposed hypocrisy of Quaruts(as in, using SLAs like Time Stop and Wish when their function is to curtail spellcasters who abuse them; the book even outright mentions this), I heard an analogy in an episode of Digimon Savers - something on the lines of "if a police car goes over the speed limit in the process of chasing a car that already has, is that illegal?" It's not perfect, I suppose, but it does make sense.

Assuming the DM doesn't drop Mechanus' entire buggery squad on the party because someone in the party used a Limited Wish, of course, which sadly kind of sounds how D&D wants Inevitables in general to be implemented.

[Efrate]

It is not for every use but those that abuse it from what I remember. If you cast time stop 4x a day they come calling but otherwise not so much. What they really should have done if they are enforcers is be immune to those spells and all similar effects unless they choose to not be immune like wishing upon themselves.

I think each can get a +0. I do not think the 22hd needs a star. Once a day wish with no cost is not especially unusual for epic play. A normal caster likely has more and some mitigating factors for the cost if that's what they try to use.