The LA-assignment thread VIII: Way Too Much For Vampirism

[Lans]

I'll say a weak +3.

[danielxcutter]

Note that you get heavy armor proficiency if you take normal Cleric! Might not be that relevant, since your Dexterity will be decent, but it’s nice.

[Temotei]

I think +3 sounds good.

[Thurbane]

Just to clarify, does the 3.0 change self get updated to disguise self, or alter self? Obviously alter selfis a much better SLA to have...

[DeTess]

I'd say this one is a +3 as well. It has a lot of good stuff over a base race cleric, just not quite enough to lose 9ths over.

[Remuko]

I think +2 is enough. Its better than a Cleric, but I dont think its 3 levels better. I'm honestly still torn on if +2 is too much.


+2 is my vote

[Debatra]

While I may be convinced to go higher, I'm gonna say +2 for now. Even if it is Alter Self instead of Disguise Self, I admittedly tend to err on the side of lower LA when dealing with borderline cases.

[Sutr]

+3 going with inevatabilities alter self, the 15 caster level on the spell likes helps.

[emulord]

+3

infinite cannon fodder has its uses, and the rest give the other 2 LA.

[lord_khaine]

I also think ill err on the side of caution and go LA +3

[Inevitability]

+2: 5 votes
+3: 8 votes

LA will be updated to +3.

[Inevitability]

Jackalwere

Another jackal monster? I thought we were done with those!

The jackalwere has four magical beast RHD, high dexterity and constitution, and above-average strength/charisma/wisdom. It can morph into jackal, humanoid, and hybrid forms, with its stats and abilities changing much like a lycanthrope's would. Non-humanoid forms get a bite attack, all forms have some natural armor, and movement speed is a bit higher in jackal form: nothing too surprising.

They have one of the more underwhelming types of DR in the game: 5/iron (regular iron, not cold). I guess at higher levels, where more enemies will use fancy magic materials, it'll be somewhat more useful, but under normal circumstances it's only relevant against natural weapons.

Finally, jackalweres get a sleep gaze, which I'm not sure how to feel about. Save-or-lose sleep is great, especially when it doesn't have a cooldown, but it targets friendlies, can arguably be countered with yelling, and grants targets a +4 save bonus in-combat. I guess it's useful against foes who're deaf, solo, or ambushable (preferably multiple of those) but it's not that great against other enemies.

The RHD is pretty okay, but the other chassis abilities are underwhelming and the sleep gaze fails to live up to expectations. I guess this could be a weak +0, but perhaps -0 is more appropriate.

[Caelestion]

Is "5/iron" not just a misprint? Besides, the way special materials work, iron is not the same as steel, which is what most weapons are made from.

[Blue Jay]

Weird that they have 2 jackal monsters in one book, but jackals themselves never got their own stat block (just a footnote in the standard "dog" stat block).

Also, I'm pretty sure "DR/iron" is just shorthand for "DR/cold iron" in the update booklet: all the demons and fey were updated to "DR/iron", and there's a note in the booklet that pretty clearly says it's intended to be the same kind of DR as the revised MM fey got.

I think I'll vote for LA +0 for the jackalwere. That's a conservative vote: its stats are below par, but Magical Beast hit dice aren't too bad and I don't think the gaze attack is quite as limiting as Inevitability does. The Narrowed Gaze feat solves all the "friendly fire" problems; and by my reading, the revised (3.5) rules for gaze attacks allow you to use the Narrowed Gaze function by default, even if you don't have the feat. I realize that that interpretation isn't necessarily agreed-upon or RAI, but even if I'm wrong and you do need the feat, it's not a very big price to pay.

[Thurbane]

Jackalwere

• Medium (Small when in jackal form) Magical beat (Shapechanger): Shapechanger subtype is handy for things like Warshaper entry, and resistance to Polymorph attacks.
• 4 RHD (full BAB, 2 good saves, 2 skill points/HD) - the book says d8 HD, but should be d10?
• 30 ft/40 ft speed: OK.
• +3/+2 natural AC: OK, but not great.
• Bite 1d6/1d4: free secondary attack when you are in hybrid form.
• Sleep gaze: decent save or lose attack, with the usual concerns about it scaling with non-racial HD. Opponents also get a sizeable bonus to save in combat situations.
• Alternate form: change between humanoid, hybrid and jackal forms. For combat, you'd mainly want to stay in hybrid form. Jackal form isn't amazingly useful, apart from disguise/infiltration.
• Darkvision 60 ft, low-light vision: decent senses. Surprised it doesn't get scent, actually.
• DR 5/cold iron: not a huge number, but usually relevant.
• Str +2, Dex +6, Con +4,Wis +2, Cha +2: net +16, no penalties. Decent.
• Small but not-terrible racial skill list: face and perception skills. +10 disguise to impersonate a jackal, FWIW.
• Uses a scimitar in its entry, but according to 3.5 rules, Magical Beasts are proficient with natural weapons only. Actually, the Shapechanger subtype says proficient with natural weapons, simple weapons, and weapons mentioned in its entry. So there you go - proficient with the scimitar.

Humanoid in form (most of the time) and can speak. No issues with gear or class progression. Sleep gaze is an OK-ish save or lose; it doesn't discriminate between enemies and party members though, and there's no clause about being immune for 24 hours after a successful save. Other than that, you have a decent melee chassis, and with no ability score penalties, most class options (other than casting, due to lost levels) are somewhat viable. I would probably suggest a ToB build, maybe with levels in Warshaper?

All things considered, I'm happy to go with LA +0: the ability mods are good, but 4 lost levels is significant.

[edit] The 3rd party Advanced Bestiary Tome of Horrors book stats up "therianthropes" which are like reverse lycanthropes - animals able to assume humanoid form. I like the way they handle these type of creatures. [/edit]

[Efrate]

A playable +0. A free martial weapon prof. and shapechamger subtype I am sure take you somewhere. Not sure where but I am sure it's more than just warshaper.

[Thurbane]

Also, meant to mention: looks like the illustrator was confusing jackals and hyenas: the artwork resembles a spotted hyena much more than any jackal. Seems to be a common error, too.

[Caelestion]

This seems like a a reasonable martial build to me. +0 LA.

[Sutr]

I think is a +0.

[lord_khaine]

Stat bonuses, NA, DR?
My vote lands on LA +1

[Inevitability]

Kaorti

Don't do Far Realm kids, it's bad for you.

Kaorti (of resin fame) are 2 RHD outsiders. Their stat spread favors mental stats (+4 intelligence, +6 charisma) as well as dexterity (+4) and penalizes strength (-4). They get a little bit of natural armor, a weak natural bite, and immunity to poison. A +8 racial bonus to Heal is a bit unexpected, but hardly negative.

The spell-likes (all of them 1/day) are interesting: Alter Self is great on an outsider, Color Spray can win encounters, Feather Fall is generally nice to have, and Ray of Enfeeblement, Reduce Person, and Spider Climb all have their uses too.

Finally there's some flavor-related traits. Kaorti can slowly transform helpless creatures into more of their kind, which is neat from a story perspective and useless on a PC (turned creatures might even attack you, depending on your specific actions). Furthermore, being out on the material plane without a protective suit (a slightly worse chain shirt) deals 1d6 damage per hour.

Kaorti can craft resin weapons, notable for getting a 4x crit multiplier, but aren't great at using them themselves. They do get innate proficiency with resin daggers, so that's something at least.

Kaorti advancement will be tricky: they're too weak for melee classes, aren't particularly well-suited for divine casters, and can't be an arcane caster because of their mandatory resin suit. Something like a rogue or beguiler might be viable, though.

Considering their limited but interesting advancement opportunities, and their neat spell-likes, I think the kaorti would be fine at +0 or +1. I'll play it safe and assign +1 for now.

[Efrate]

+0 just because you are so pigeonholed. What is asf on the worst chain shirt 20%? Twilight and a good material should offset that bit depends on how specific it needs to be to avoid the damage. 1d6 an hour is not totally awful even without it. It sucks but you can mitigate it pretty easily barring resting. So you have your protective night but otherwise its managable.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Also, meant to mention: looks like the illustrator was confusing jackals and hyenas: the artwork resembles a spotted hyena much more than any jackal. Seems to be a common error, too.

Let us not forget the hyalopterous lemur incident. Mistakes happen (and are sometimes hilarious).

As for the kaorti I am sort of torn. What they get is good but where do you go from there? -4 Str makes melee an investment and you suffer from arcane spell failure. No Wisdom bonus so you don't do anything special for divine casting aside from the flavor wise bizarre shugenja. Clearly you are an excellent battle sorcerer candidate...

I will put down +0 for now until I can think of a useful way to advance this without the 2 HD being an extreme cost.

Raven made a fantastic argument:
Change my vote to +1

[Sutr]

Well as Inivitability put it as alter self, I'm leaning on +1, its two second level spells being alter self and spider climb. Its got better stats, skills, and casts more spells than a second level wizard. Easily better than one of the best classes at its level.


magic in the blood feat

[Debatra]

...Bard I guess?

And it's worth noting that the Resin suit, in addition to already being a specific material (so no mithril) has a 25% arcane spell failure instead of a chain shirt's 20%. So even Twilight will leave you with 15%. Avoid Planar Effects (which might technically not even work) is only minute/level, and its hour/level brother (which is just "Avoid Planar Effects except where noted", so also might not technically work) is a fifth-level spell for Sorcerers and Wizards. Maybe if your friend has the Elysium domain.

There's a section in the book about Kaorti characters. Sorcerer is their favored class, despite the fact that they'll be failing to do anything up to a quarter of the time. Kaorti wizards don't use standard spellbooks. "Kaorti wizards or sorcerers never summon animal familiars". "No instance of a divine spellcaster kaorti has been recorded.", though that doesn't technically rule them out.

But they'd be decent Bards or social/UMD Rogues. Or maybe a Battle Sorcerer in a pinch- No, not even then. I still think it needs to be +0 though. It's very low on good options, but its charisma lets it do those two things really well. Even its feats are good for that role.

I also really like the ribbon dagger. Not a great weapon, but it's pretty neat.

...And now I'm imagining that all the flavor text of kaorti being powerful sorcerers is just a bard or rogue with illusion magic and a really good bluff check.

[Dusk Raven]

The arcane spell failure chance isn't insurmountable. There are multiple classes that can ignore it for light armor - Bard, Battle Sorcerer, Beguiler, Warmage, Duskblade, Hexblade, and Dread Necromancer, and all of them except for Beguiler and Duskblade are Charisma-based. For divine casters, the Paladin and Favored Soul benefit from high Charisma, on top of the benefits for high Wisdom that the Kaorti also get. And finally, Dragon Shaman and Warlock have uses for Charisma, and are proficient in light armor. Whether any of these classes are effective is another matter, but they don't care about the Kaorti suit's spell failure chance. And for those classes that do, there are prestige classes like Spellsword which can mitigate spell failure chance. And, if your DM allows magazine material, Dungeon Magazine 118 has the Resinbond feat, which decreases the spell failure chance of Kaorti Resin, among other benefits. While the arcane spell failure chance is an obstacle early on for, say, standard sorcerers, it need not remain so in the long run.

[Zecrin]

If you pick up sandals of the vagabond for exhaustion immunity, is material vulnerability really so bad that you can't go without the resin suit?

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Hmm, maybe Spellthief? Ignore the spell failure chance, use Weapon Finesse on those lovely daggers, charisma based casting and social skills? A level in Bard or a few in Prestige Bard and then into Sublime Chord?

[lord_khaine]

Why the heck are people once more pretending Psionic doesnt exist?
They got the stat bonuses for Psion/wilders. And psionic care less about being a power level behind.

Also the outside HD does accelerate entry into slayer.

[Thurbane]

Kaorti: most famous for early entry into Fiend of Possession, and the web article that lets you make weapons with x4 crit mutipliers.

• Medium Outsider (Evil, Extraplanar): that Evil subtype can be really useful for the right build.
• 2 RHD of the equally best type (d8 hp, full BAB, three good saves, 8 skill points/level, MWP)
• 30 ft speed: OK.
• +2 natural AC: OK.
• Bite 1d6: at least you have a secondary attack when using a weapon - although you are unlikely to be a melee type.
• SLAs: 1/day = alter self, color spray, feather fall, ray of enfeeblement, reduce (?) and spider climb. CL 2 limits the usefulness of Alter Self, but if you want to invest in it, take the Practiced Magic feat to boost it by up to 4 (similar to how Practiced Spellcaster works).
• Vile transformation: not really going to be relevant for a PC.
• Material vulnerability: annoying - you'll want to invest in a resin suit and/or other measures.
• Outsider traits: meh. You may need the Revive Outsider spell.
• Poison immunity: nice.
• Str -4, Dex +4, Int +4, Cha +6: net +10, with a penalty to only one score. Not half bad, especially for a caster.
• Decent racial skill list, including all the stuff a caster might want, plus UMD for good measure. +8 racial bonus to Heal (I would assume this is related to grafting or experimenting on living creatures).
• Proficiency with martial weapons, and medium armor.

Medium humanoid in shape, and can speak. I'm going to agree with Inevitability and vote LA +1.

[edit] There are a few ways to get around or reduce the ASF from the resin suit. A dip in Urban Savant, for instance. [/edit]