The LA-assignment thread VIII: Way Too Much For Vampirism

[Blue Jay]

I'm also of the opinion that the Material Vulnerability isn't that big of a deal. It's only 1d6 nonlethal damage (plus fatigue) per hour, you get a save to negate it, and standard healing options overcome it. For most players, it'll be more of a bookkeeping annoyance than an actual handicap. It's easy enough to combat it with spells and such --- (Aside: Debatra, can you explain why you think those spells might technically not work?) --- or if you don't want to do that, others have already pointed out that there are plenty of mid- to high-tier caster and manifester classes that won't suffer a spell failure chance with a resin suit (I don't think anyone mentioned the invocation-user classes yet, but those can also work well).

Ultimately, I think the 2 racial HD is the bigger limitation for spellcasting kaorti, and I think the mental stat boosts and SLAs go a long way toward compensating for the lost caster levels.

I'm voting for LA +1 for the kaorti.

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Two random questions about kaorti:

First, how does the scaling on that Fort DC for Material Vulnerability work? Does it keep accumulating across the lifetime of the kaorti (I guess RAW is "yes", but that's kind of silly)? Or does it reset back to 15 after some rest period in their native environment?

Second, what do y'all make of this quote from the text section on the Resin Suit:

"Resin suits are costly and time-consuming to make; ordinary kaorti (those with 1 HD) are only rarely allowed to use them as a result."

"Ordinary" kaorti only have 1 HD? If that's the case, the "ordinary" ones should get LA +2.

[Debatra]

I'm also of the opinion that the Material Vulnerability isn't that big of a deal. It's only 1d6 nonlethal damage (plus fatigue) per hour, you get a save to negate it, and standard healing options overcome it.

Yes, and maybe a mid to high-level party can treat it as just a nuisance. But at level three (and let's just assume +0 here for sake of argument), that d6 is a good chunk of your health and your healing options are far more limited. The save DC also increases every time you have to make it regardless of success. (And here's one for the Completely Dysfunctional Handbook - it never resets by pure RAW. If a Kaorti made ten saves against this damage in one day, then was protected for every second of the next ten years of its life, the DC for its next save after all that time would still be 25. But let's ignore that part for serious discussion because it's just plain silly.)

It's easy enough to combat it with spells and such --- (Aside: Debatra, can you explain why you think those spells might technically not work?)

I'm not completely certain on that one. Rather than just saying something like "you function normally on whatever plane you're on" or what have you, Avoid Planar Effects has a lengthy list of specific planes and things it protects against. And like so many other things in this game, it's written with medium-size humanoids from the prime material in mind. That said, it's also possible that the opening lines of the spell are general enough to include the Material Plane in its protections. Like I said, I'm not 100% on this one.

Even so, that's a boatload of spell slots and/or gold at low levels. (20,000gp for a permanent item of it)

[Blue Jay]

Yes, and maybe a mid to high-level party can treat it as just a nuisance. But at level three (and let's just assume +0 here for sake of argument), that d6 is a good chunk of your health and your healing options are far more limited.

Okay, but it is nonlethal damage. Remember that nonlethal damage heals at 1 pt / level / hour. So, at level 3, even if you fail your save every hour, you'll break even half the time just by virtue of your natural healing, without even using any resources.

Of course, the fatigue would still be an inconvenience, but fatigue doesn't really hurt a spellcaster as much as a frontliner. And with the racial bonuses to Dex and natural armor, a fatigued kaorti caster is still probably coming out about even in the AC department.

[lord_khaine]

And it doesnt matter anyway. Since a Psion, among many other classes, will just wear the suit and be glad for the armor bonus.

[danielxcutter]

Are you automatically proficient? I forget, but if you are that helps.

[Angrith]

You know, I can't help but feel this would be nice in Pathfinder. What with Oracle for charisma casting divine magic and Magus dex builds existing, this sucker would be quite nice.

Anyhow, in 3.5 I think a +1 is appropriate. Psionics and bard are viable choices.

[Inevitability]

Keeper

The keeper is an unique, interesting, and weird-looking monster, that manages to be a pretty good PC as well.

The chassis isn't half bad: 4 outsider RHD and +4-+8 bonuses to all relevant stats are certainly welcome. SR 13 has its uses, as does 200 ft. blindsight, resistance 10 to a bunch of energy types, scent, and, occasionally, DR 10/magic.

The special abilities are a mixed bag: Body Switch let's the keeper switch places with another keeper ally, making it near-useless in an actual adventuring party. Hive Mind similarly only works for others of its species. Dissolution is arguably negative in utility, as it automatically kills you after ten rounds of being held helpless, leaving only a puddle of contact poison. Sure, getting to nauseate a handful of potential killers is neat, but dying whenever you get taken prisoner really isn't.

The more interesting special abilities are Poison Spit (which lets you mass-nauseate some foes every 1d4 rounds) and Mimic Weapon (which lets you shape one or two arms into any melee weapon that you've seen someone use). The latter ability notably doesn't require proficiency, while also letting you stack natural weapon bonuses on top of a 'manufactured' weapon, so that should open up some neat combos.

The chassis and RHD, in addition to worthwhile abilities, mean that the keeper should be fine at +2 LA (although perhaps a bit on the weak side of that range). Just don't get yourself pinned.

[Emperor Tippy]

You continue to significantly undervalue creatures.

Outsider HD are better than the levels of any core non-caster. Full BAB, 8 skill points, all good saves.

A class with no class features, just Outsider HD, is better than a fighter at level 4. By a decent margin. Yes, later game it is less relevant but those are still solid abilities on their own.

Now throw onto that, +4 Natural Armor, +10 ft. movement speed, 20 ft. Climb speed, a breath weapon, 200 ft. Blindsight, immunity to mind-affecting, poison, sleep, paralysis, stunning, disease, death effects, necromatic effects, and anything with a Fort save that doesn't also work on objects, they also aren't subject to critical hits, sneak attacks, subdual damage, ability damage, ability drain, energy drain, or death from massive damage. Then there is the Resistance to Energy 10, Scent, and DR.

This is not a LA+0 race. When you say that, you are claiming that a 4 level long PrC with the following benefits would be balanced.

HD: d8
Skills: 8+Int
-Barbarian Fast movement
-20 ft. climb speed
-+4 natural armor
-breath weapon with a 20 ft. cone of poison usable every 1d4 rounds (Contact, DC 14, nauseated 2d6 rounds, cd6 Con, Price: 1,200)
-immunity to mind-affecting, poison, sleep, paralysis, stunning, disease, death effects, necromantic effects, sneak attacks, critical hits, subdual damage, ability damage, ability drain, energy drain, death from massive damage, anything that requires a Fort save and doesn't effect objects.
-Scent, Blindsight 200 ft., Darkvision 60 ft.
-Resistance 10 to Fire, Cold, Acid, Electricity, Sonic
-DR 10/Magic
-SR 13
-Some degree of decent attribute bonuses

A four level PrC that did all of that? With no entry requirements? That isn't merely a good PrC, it is one of the very top tier PrC's (at least in any build that it fits with).

It's RAW LA+3 is probably a bit on the high side, but LA+0 is, frankly, absurd.

[lord_khaine]

This is not a LA+0 race. When you say that, you are claiming that a 4 level long PrC with the following benefits would be balanced.

It is when the mental balance point is a cleric or a druid

Anyway that aside, its a staggering list of immunities.
Stat bonuses newer goes out of fashion. Resistances is nice. Blindsight is awesome. DR magic actually remains useful at all levels.

So my initial rating is LA +2.

[Sutr]

I've played this +2. Its one of the level adjustments that might be right. I think I could be talked up or down one.

Its blind but has ranks in spot.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Outsider HD are better than the levels of any core non-caster. Full BAB, 8 skill points, all good saves.

Keep in mind that we're comparing to tier 4 and up, which means we're mostly talking about classes that have subsystems that can be advanced (spellcasting, initiating, incarnum), and not considering fighter and monk at all. In the tier 1-4 range, raw numbers are nice, but only get you so far. As you yourself said, it's a top-tier race in any build that it fits into... and that's all relatively low-tier.

I'll go with LA +1.

[Emperor Tippy]

Keep in mind that we're comparing to tier 4 and up, which means we're mostly talking about classes that have subsystems that can be advanced (spellcasting, initiating, incarnum), and not considering fighter and monk at all. In the tier 1-4 range, raw numbers are nice, but only get you so far. As you yourself said, it's a top-tier race in any build that it fits into... and that's all relatively low-tier.

I'll go with LA +1.

And I repeat, that is a really bad way to figure LA.

A class that was literally nothing but 20 levels of Outsider HD is a tier five class, borderline tier 4. Good HP, full BAB, all good saves, Rogue skill points, and some other random (minor) things.

It's better than core Fighter or Monk in most respects.

What you are saying with an LA+0 race with some number of racial HD is "this is a [RHD] level base class with XYZ benefits". So the question becomes, is that balanced against whatever your baseline balance point is?

In this case, the list of immunities and abilities are plainly not balanced on that scale. Anyone who is going to play a Keeper is going to be doing so while building something that synergizes with its abilities, in which case it is worth some amount of LA.

Is it worth LA+3? No. But is it worth LA+0? Also no. I would probably put it at the higher end of LA+1.

[ExLibrisMortis]

And I repeat, that is a really bad way to figure LA.

A class that was literally nothing but 20 levels of Outsider HD is a tier five class, borderline tier 4. Good HP, full BAB, all good saves, Rogue skill points, and some other random (minor) things.

It's better than core Fighter or Monk in most respects.

What you are saying with an LA+0 race with some number of racial HD is "this is a [RHD] level base class with XYZ benefits". So the question becomes, is that balanced against whatever your baseline balance point is?

In this case, the list of immunities and abilities are plainly not balanced on that scale. Anyone who is going to play a Keeper is going to be doing so while building something that synergizes with its abilities, in which case it is worth some amount of LA.

Is it worth LA+3? No. But is it worth LA+0? Also no. I would probably put it at the higher end of LA+1.

You realize that we figure out LA in the same way, right? You and I have reached the same conclusion, at LA +1. And yes, other people have reached other conclusions, but that's what the thread is for: to compare our evaluations. That we reach different conclusions doesn't mean that our method is "really bad", or even that it's any different.

After sitting through dozens of crappy monsters (often of the "has 15 undead RHD" persuasion), we've decided that comparisons to tier 5 are pretty useless, because even if something was balanced against straight core monks, it'd still suck for 90% of the things you wanted to do with it, and it probably wouldn't scale worth a damn.

[Lans]

The easiest T4 comparison point is an Orc Barbarian with the ACF that ups strength and dexterity where it squares up pretty easily to. Its short 1hp, and a bit of touch AC while flat footed, but has climb speed, resistances, a slew of immunities, skills, saves, and that's against the barbarian while its using its rage variant. It has some downsides, but I think it is good enough for +1. It can still get 9th level manuevers if it goes into a ToB class

[Mike Miller]

I also vote +1 for the Keeper.

[Efrate]

I'll put a vote in for +1 though I could see an arguement for +2.

[Caelestion]

I think I'd say LA +2, because obviously you're going to play it towards its strengths, of which it has more than a few.

[Blue Jay]

And I repeat, that is a really bad way to figure LA.

A class that was literally nothing but 20 levels of Outsider HD is a tier five class, borderline tier 4. Good HP, full BAB, all good saves, Rogue skill points, and some other random (minor) things.

It's better than core Fighter or Monk in most respects.

What you are saying with an LA+0 race with some number of racial HD is "this is a [RHD] level base class with XYZ benefits". So the question becomes, is that balanced against whatever your baseline balance point is?

In this case, the list of immunities and abilities are plainly not balanced on that scale. Anyone who is going to play a Keeper is going to be doing so while building something that synergizes with its abilities, in which case it is worth some amount of LA.

I started a thread for comparing monster builds. It might be a worthwhile exercise to build a "mid-op" keeper PC just to show whether or not the keeper's abilities really do give it a significant advantage over standard-race characters. I might try it myself later.

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While typing this up, I kept waffling between +1 and +2, and I'm still not sure. But, I think I'm going to vote LA +1 for the keeper, just to be "nice," I suppose. It's got a ton of really nice special qualities and immunities, and the Mimic Weapon ability seems really fun to me. I'm a little leery of the Dissolution thing, but I would personally be lenient with that as a DM, so I'm just going to assume that it can be mostly ignored.

[Thurbane]

Keeper: the guy who looks like 70s sci-fi art and/or a bad guy from an animated Beatles movie...

• Medium Outsider (Extraplanar)
• 4RHD of the best kind (full BAB, 3 good saves, 8 skill points/level)
• Speed 40 ft, climb 20 ft: nice.
• +4 natural AC: not bad.
• Mimic weapons: basically a non-magical Morphing weapon. Handy, but I don't believe you can enchant it; maybe a Necklace of Natural attacks or similar?
• Poison spit: nauseating ranged poison attack, ever 1d4 rounds, with a 2d6 Con damage follow up. Pretty solid special attack: save or suck followed up with Con damage.
• Blindsight 200 ft, scent: nice.
• Body switch:weird ability, and not much use unless there are two or more Keepers in a party.
• DR 10/magic: meh.
• Dissolution: dissolved into goo if you are helpless for 10 or more rounds.
• Hive mind: again, only useful if you aren't the only Keeper around.
• Immunities: immune to mind-affecting, posion, sleep, paralysis, stunning, disease, death effects, necromantic effects, and most attacks that rely on a Fort save. Also critical hits, sneak attacks, subdual damage, ability damage, ability drain, energy drain, or death from massive damage. So, more or less the same immunities that Constructs or Undead get, without losing out on a Con score.
• Outsider traits: meh.
• Resistances: all energy types 10. Not bad.
• SR 13: non-scaling. Meh.
• Str +8, Dex +6, Con +4, Int +4, Wis -2, Cha -4: net +16, with penalties on two mental stats. Fortunately, Cha is a dump stat in a lot of builds.
• OK-ish racial skill list. +8 on Climb, Escape Artists and Jump.
• Spring Attack as a bonus feat: not bad.

Medium humanoid-ish in form, and can speak - so no real issues with gear or class progression. What would you build on this? Melee and/or skillmonkey options seem viable.

They get a lot of good stuff, weighed up against the drawbacks of 4RHD, vulnerability to being helpless or pinned, and penalties on two mental ability scores. Books says +3; I'm in agreement with LA +2 at this point.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

I'm waffling between +1 and +2. On the one hand, it does seem pretty strong for a +1. On the other hand, is anything it has worth losing 9th level maneuvers (barring questionably RAW Uncanny Trickster/Legacy Champion tricks) or being that far behind on Essentia/Binding/Invocations/what have you?

[danielxcutter]

While still a rather large risk, how likely is it for you to be pinned for 10 rounds and not be already screwed anyways?

[Zancloufer]

While still a rather large risk, how likely is it for you to be pinned for 10 rounds and not be already screwed anyways?

Any sort of Paralysis/forced sleep effect that lasts at least 1 minute? I mean sure it can be avoided to an extent but it does turn something like Sleep or Hold Person into a Save or Die.

Strong +1, it's not bad but loosing 4+ levels of class features hurts and with one of it's special abilities being a weakness that can result in death seems a fair price for a beefy chassis.

[Thurbane]

You know, all of this has really got me wanting to use these guys for an encounter next time I DM.

[danielxcutter]

Any sort of Paralysis/forced sleep effect that lasts at least 1 minute? I mean sure it can be avoided to an extent but it does turn something like Sleep or Hold Person into a Save or Die.

Strong +1, it's not bad but loosing 4+ levels of class features hurts and with one of it's special abilities being a weakness that can result in death seems a fair price for a beefy chassis.

I’d personally not risk dying like that at all, although this is strictly personal. My point is that you’d still be screwed if someone has the ability to capture you for 10 rounds - Keepers are just more screwed.

You know, all of this has really got me wanting to use these guys for an encounter next time I DM.

A lot of Fiend Folio creatures make for great adventure hooks, yeah! And these things in particular literally have such abilities built in.

[Thurbane]

Any sort of Paralysis/forced sleep effect that lasts at least 1 minute? I mean sure it can be avoided to an extent but it does turn something like Sleep or Hold Person into a Save or Die.

They do have built in immunity to most these type of attacks, though.

[Blue Jay]

I’d personally not risk dying like that at all, although this is strictly personal. My point is that you’d still be screwed if someone has the ability to capture you for 10 rounds - Keepers are just more screwed.

It's definitely a niche problem, which is another reason why I think it can probably safely be ignored.

I was imagining things that can trap you, like forcecage or the various wall spells, which usually don't even allow a save to avoid them. Things like that could easily become lethal, where they would normally just be an annoyance for most PCs. Plus, add the fact that, being an Outsider, you're harder to bring back from the dead, and it basically just makes the game a little more lethal for a keeper than it would otherwise be.

Ultimately, I think it's more than balanced out by all things you're immune to, so it doesn't really change things.

I'm still waffling a bit on my vote, and other people voting for +2 are starting to make me doubt myself. But, I think I'm going to stick with +1 anyway.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Gimme that sweet sweet +2. At 4 quality HD this is a defensive power house and, between its chassis and good stat it feels ready to march into wany good PrC and do well there.

[No brains]

I seem to recall that "helpless" is something of a status condition where a creature is 'at an opponent's mercy' and that lends itself to the dysfunctional reading that some creatures are helpless all the time since evil gods just exist angrily at them.

We gotta add an asterisk to any LA we assign. These guys are all long melted and impossible to play.

[Temotei]

I'll vote +2 as well.

[ixrisor]

Any sort of Paralysis/forced sleep effect that lasts at least 1 minute? I mean sure it can be avoided to an extent but it does turn something like Sleep or Hold Person into a Save or Die.

It’s already almost a save or die, because of coup de gráce. A fighter power attacking for full and critting automatically takes a big chunk out of most things