The LA-assignment thread VIII: Way Too Much For Vampirism

[Sutr]

Not to be shocking but I'm agreeing with Dimers at +0. Seems to beat the raging barbarian warforged standard by stats by 4 points strength and 4 dex, which coupled with blindsight 100ft and regeneration saves it from going in the junk bin to me.

It's not like you can bludgeon this dead horse.

[lord_khaine]

Not to be shocking but I'm agreeing with Dimers at +0. Seems to beat the raging barbarian warforged standard by stats by 4 points strength and 4 dex, which coupled with blindsight 100ft and regeneration saves it from going in the junk bin to me.

It's not like you can bludgeon this dead horse.

Sounds reasonable. Im convinced. LA +0

[ExLibrisMortis]

I'm going to go with LA -0. It doesn't have much going for it.

[Thurbane]

OK, maybe it is worth a more detailed breakdown:

• Large Plant (aquatic) - no reach.
• 11 RHD (d8 HD, medium BAB, 1 good save, 2 skill points/HD)
• 20 ft speed, swim 60 ft: not bad - great in an aquatic campaign.
• +10 natural AC: decent.
• 4 tendrils 1d8
• Improved grab: nice on any grapple build.
• SLAs: 3/day - dispel magic, entangle; 1/day - confusion, displacement, CL 11; decent, but not amazing, set of SLAs. Dispel Magic starts losing efficacy at this level of play.
• Blindsight 100 ft: nice, especially since it is specifically stated not to be blind. Low-light vision from the plant type, as well.
• Camouflage: +10 on hide checks; decent.
• Fire resistance 20: decent.
• Immunities: immune to cold and bludgeoning damage; nice.
• Plant traits: all the lovely immunities.
• Regeneration 4: only overcome by acid. This is very nice, especially if you pick up resistance/immunity to acid.
• Str +10, Dex +4, Con +6, Int -4, Cha +2: net +18; the hit to Int hurts, but isn't insurmountable, I guess.
• Small but mostly OK racial skill list: +10 on hide

Weird body type; no ability to speak listed; unsure how tendrils will go at manipulating objects. With the aquatic subtype, can't breath air. It has some great resistances/immunities/defenses, good at grappling (but would be nicer with reach!), and a small suite of SLAs is nice. However, your body type and aqautic nature have some hefty drawbacks.

In a fully aquatic campaign, I might see LA +0, but in general use, too many drawbacks for my taste. I'm sticking with my previously posted LA -0 for general usage.

[danielxcutter]

I mean, if the relatively conservative Thurbane thinks that...

This isn’t a vote, just saying. It’s just that he’s always been on the higher end of LA voting.

Just to make sure, these things can still get Rapidstrike, but that wouldn’t make up for the damage output I presume?

[Thurbane]

The exact wording of Rapidstrike might make it a bit difficult for the Kelp Angler to qualify: it keeps referring to pairs of natural attacks, such as two claws, two wings, two slams etc. If the DM was being very letter-of-the-law, your four tendrils may not qualify as "one or more pairs of natural weapons".

I mean, I would probably allow it (saying you have two "pairs" of tendrils), but the RAW is debatable.

[edit] Disregard all of that, the feat is quite clear: "A creature with multiple limbs qualifies for this feat as well, such as a creature with three arms and three claw attacks."

So yes, once you hit +10 BAB, you can take the feat. [/edit]

[Sutr]

I mean, if the relatively conservative Thurbane thinks that...

This isn’t a vote, just saying. It’s just that he’s always been on the higher end of LA voting.

Just to make sure, these things can still get Rapidstrike, but that wouldn’t make up for the damage output I presume?

... well I don't think I'm disagreeing much with Thurbane. He'd consider +0 in an aquatic game. I don't think its worth rating if the presupposition is that; it suffocates during the DM's opening. I do believe we have disagreed on the value of limbs considering its a group game and someone in the party likely has them?

The damage I worked out was a wash. A warforged raging barbarian great sword gets 3 attacks at +18/+13/+8 at 2d6+11. Kelp Angler +16 1d8+9 tentacles assuming 18 strength for both. Lets assume a 22 AC because its what I picked. Barb does .80X20+.55x20+.3x20=33 Angler gets .7x13x4=36. I rounded up for the barbarian as I understand that magic weapons and +STR items will be more easily attainable for it and that the +str item will be magnified for it.

[Inevitability]

-0 has a pretty big majority, I'll be updating the LA and moving on to the kelpie.

[Inevitability]

Kelpie

Drink some water, you sound horse.

Anyway, kelpies are 10 RHD fey with a very mixed bag of abilities. Strength is really high, all other stats (except intelligence) receive notable boosts as well. Cold and fire resistance 20 will come in handy, and scent has its uses too.

Offensively, kelpies have two hoof attacks (with Trip) and a bite. They don't get reach, nor are these attacks very powerful.

The kelpies supernatural abilities wouldn't be unimpressive on a dedicated melee brute. Unfortunately, the kelpie has a wizard's BAB, no special defenses other than energy resistance, and terrible attacks. With that in mind, having an alternate human form, at-will Detect Thoughts, and 3/day Charm Monster and Emotion isn't all that snazzy.

Kelpies can stay in horse form and be a decidedly unimpressive warrior, or they can assume human form and lose their one good stat. In either case, they'll be struggling to meaningfully contribute to the fight once their SLAs run out (not that they're great before that either). -0 LA.

[Thurbane]

I think this one is pretty clear cut, but I have some time on my hands:

• Large Fey (Aquatic) - no reach.
• 10 RHD (d6 HD, medium BAB, 1 good save)
• Speed 50 ft, swim 50 ft: nice.
• +12 natural AC: solid.
• 2 hooves 1d6, bite 1d8.
• SLAs: at will - detect thoughts; 3/day charm person, emotion. Not horrible, but not amazing either.
• Trip: free trip attempt after hitting with a hoof; not bad.
• Alternate form: certainly helps get around your body shape issues.
• Cold resistance 20, fire resistance 20: nice.
• Low-light vision, scent: solid senses.
• Str +14, Dex +2, Con +6, Wis +2, Cha +4: +28, no penalties - nice.
• Decent racial skill list, focus on stealth, perception and face skills. +10 on Swim.

Non-humanoid form, no manipulative digits - still, alternate form helps with that. Not sure that it helps with the Aquatic subtype and inability to breathe air though - do you keep subtypes while polymorphed? Does the polymorphed form automatically gain the ability to breath normally for its form? I'm a bit rusty on the specifics. Can speak, in natural form, which is one less headache.

Has some nice stats boosts, movement rates, and a few other moderate goodies. The opportunity cost is 10 lost levels. At less RHD (maybe 5 or 6), and especially in an aquatic campaign, maybe a +0, but as is: LA -0 from me.

[Efrate]

A other -0. HD bloat continues to ruin stuff.

[Sutr]

Compares easy enough to a seventh level totemist. -0 I feel this is over CR'd. I'd feel fine droppng 3 hit die off of it, so its hit die matched its caster level.

[Emperor Tippy]

-0 on the scale being used, realistically I would feel fine with -2 or -3 LA (i.e. same abilities, LA+0, two/three fewer HD).

It simply doesn't have anything that justifies replacing 10 class levels with fairly crap HD. Even with outsider HD it would still be LA -0 in my opinion.

[Random Sanity]

A handful of nifty abilities. But trash chassis is trash. -0, end of discussion.

[ExLibrisMortis]

I never realized these had 10 RHD. I thought was 6 or something. LA -0 for sure.

[Temotei]

LA -0. I agree with Tippy.

[Blue Jay]

Fiend Folio seems to have done a fairly poor job with Aquatic creatures. Both the ahuizotl and the kelpie apparently can't breath air, and the kelpie's alternate form does not overcome that. So, even in humanoid form, it has to hold its breath. I feel like both of these monsters were intended to be Amphibious, and it was poor editing that led to those omissions. And it's not going to end here. Looking at the rest of the book, here are some things I've seen:

• Selkie: A fairy taking the form of a seal. Aquatic subtype, not Amphibious, no air breathing (despite that being the exact opposite of how seals breathe). It's also unclear how it can live on land long enough to marry a human if it can't breathe air.
• Terlen: A flying shark. No Aquatic subtype.
• Yurian: Crabmen for 3.5e! They have the Aquatic subtype, but not the Amphibious special quality. The text blurb does explicitly say they can breathe air and water, though; so they're good.
• Aquatic Oozes: We already did these, but they're noteworthy in being the only monsters in the Fiend Folio to have the Amphibious special quality, and (in my opinion) the only aquatic/amphibious creatures in the book whose breathing mechanics were handled correctly.

I think it's pretty clear that the writers and editors of Fiend Folio just didn't have a clear and consistent understanding of how they were supposed to handle the mechanics of breathing for aquatic and amphibious creatures.

So, I think it's safe to ignore breathing limitations for most of these creatures, on the assumption that they breathe exactly how you would intuitively guess.

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Also, LA -0 sounds right for the kelpie. The real-world kelpie myth often says that a kelpie changes to human form by shedding its seal skin. I kind of wish they had incorporated that aspect into the mechanics of the D&D monster.

[danielxcutter]

Fiend Folio seems to have done a fairly poor job with Aquatic creatures. Both the ahuizotl and the kelpie apparently can't breath air, and the kelpie's alternate form does not overcome that. So, even in humanoid form, it has to hold its breath. I feel like both of these monsters were intended to be Amphibious, and it was poor editing that led to those omissions. And it's not going to end here. Looking at the rest of the book, here are some things I've seen:

• Selkie: A fairy taking the form of a seal. Aquatic subtype, not Amphibious, no air breathing (despite that not being the exact opposite of how seals breathe). It's also unclear how it can live on land long enough to marry a human if it can't breathe air.
• Terlen: A flying shark. No Aquatic subtype.
• Yurian: Crabmen for 3.5e! They have the Aquatic subtype, but not the Amphibious special quality. The text blurb does explicitly say they can breathe air and water, though; so they're good.
• Aquatic Oozes: We already did these, but they're noteworthy in being the only monsters in the Fiend Folio to have the Amphibious special quality, and (in my opinion) the only aquatic/amphibious creatures in the book whose breathing mechanics were handled correctly.

I think it's pretty clear that the writers and editors of Fiend Folio just didn't have a clear and consistent understanding of how they were supposed to handle the mechanics of breathing for aquatic and amphibious creatures.

So, I think it's safe to ignore breathing limitations for most of these creatures, on the assumption that they breathe exactly how you would intuitively guess.

-----

Also, LA -0 sounds right for the kelpie. The real-world kelpie myth often says that a kelpie changes to human form by shedding its seal skin. I kind of wish they had incorporated that aspect into the mechanics of the D&D monster.

Seal women are selkies.

[Thurbane]

The only creatures that get Amphibious in FF are the Bloodbloater, Flotsam Ooze and Reekmurk.

Doesn't seem like Amphibious was really a thing back in 3.0. In the MM2, only once creature (Ocean Giant) gets called out as being Amphibious.

For instance, 3.5 Merfolk are called out as being Amphibious, whereas 3.0 Merfolk don't seem to be.

Is it possibly an edition issue, rather than oversight from the devs?

[Blue Jay]

Seal women are selkies.

That's what I get for talking about both in the same post.

[Caelestion]

What you need is a selkie stick to help tell them apart.

[Thurbane]

It's a shame the Amphibious Creature template in Stormwrack can only be applied to Humanoids and Monstrous Humanoids. It'll help with Selkies, at least.

After some further reading, I honestly think this is an edition issue, more than anything else. Looking at the 3.0 Monster Manual, 3.0 DMG and the 3.0 SRD, and there is no mention of the Aquatic subtype making you unable to breathe air, that I can find.

[Inevitability]

Khaasta

Honestly, Khaasta remind me of those random humanoid races 4e has, the ones that show up as enemies somewhere during the late paragon tier and never really distinguish themselves from other generic mooks.

Anyway, the 3.5 khaasta is pretty okay? Three monstrous humanoid RHD are a decent chassis, +8 strength and +4 constitution are nice, +2 dexterity and intelligence are too, +6 natural armor doesn't hurt either, and a (weak) bite attack is icing.

In spite of the lack of special abilities, this is a solid enough chassis that I'm comfortable assigning +1. It should be comparable to a tier 4 martial, especially if aiming for a gish build.

[Debatra]

Nothing special, but it does what it does fairly well. Agree with +0.

A little odd that they have both Point Blank Shot and Power Attack though.

[danielxcutter]

A Khaasta Warblade 14/Battle Trickster 3 gets 9th-level maneuvers, and a Khaasta Duskblade gets 5th-level spells - both which synergize decently with good physical stats and a small Int bonus. Their skill list is large enough and their base skill points few enough that being forced to invest in cross-class skills isn’t a problem either. And they have proficiencies in three martial weapons, which reduces the drawback of the limited weapon proficiency of martial adepts.

[Blue Jay]

It's hard to get enthusiastic about one of the many nondescript reptilian races in this game. These guys have nicer stats than most, but there's not much to distinguish them from all the other reptilian humanoids and monstrous humanoids out there.

After a fair amount of experience DM-ing low-level monster games, I've recently started to get the impression that it's pretty easy to make a solid melee monster for a low-level game with just full BAB, decent weapon & armor proficiencies, and per-HD bonuses of +1 natural armor and +3 or +4 to ability scores. The khaasta is well above that line, so I'm actually going to vote for LA +1 for the khaasta. Looking at a couple basic builds, I see this:

• Khaasta 3 is probably fairly even with half-orc barbarian 3
• Khaasta 3 / barbarian 1, however, beats the pants off of half-orc barbarian 4
• Khaasta 3 / barbarian 1 / warblade 1 is probably comparable to half-orc barbarian 1 / warblade 4, but actually has better advancement potential in several ways (e.g., it will get a 3rd-level stance 3 levels earlier).

Maybe LA +1 is too much, but I'm voting conservatively for now.

[Efrate]

I think a +1. Monstrous humanoid is very good type for a face beater, and stats are huge enough that it comes well ahead of the baseline comparison with water orc.

[Thurbane]

• Medium Monstrous Humanoid (Extraplanar, Reptilian)
• 3 RHD (full BAB, 2 good saves, 2 skill points/HD)
• 30 ft speed: standard.
• +6 natural AC: not bad.
• Bite 1d4: secondary attack when you are wielding weapons.
• Darkvision 60 ft.
• Str +8, Dex +2, Con +4, Int +2: net +16, no penalties. Boosts in the spots where a melee type appreciates it.
• Racial skill list: mixed bag, but only a few skills that are going to be particularly useful for most melee builds. You can qualify for Knowledge Devotion, if you want to go down that road.
• Proficient with medium armor, simple weapons, halberd, longbow and scimitar.

Humanoid in form (you might need modified armor for the tail, depending on the DM), and can speak.

Rather a dull race (no special qualities to speak of), although the ability boosts and natural AC are good for any melee type. I can see this making a decent Warblade, who will appreciate longbow proficiency, the natural AC, and ability boosts right where he wants them.

I'm a bit torn here: only downside is 3RHD, but they are full BAB. Strong LA +0, or low end LA +1? I think I'll go with LA +1 for now.

I thought Khaasta were a cat/lion race back in basic D&D? I must be getting the name confused. [edit] I was thinking of Rakasta. [/edt]

[Remuko]

Seems an easy +0. Decent but nothing special.

[lord_khaine]

Getting +16 stat points, and +6 Nat armor is a pretty big thing.
It will be a massively effective beater whose AC is far out of default range. So LA +1 is the conservative bet.