The LA-assignment thread VIII: Way Too Much For Vampirism

[danielxcutter]

I agree with Inevitability's rating for all three Nerra. Also, I had a great laugh at +18 LA. I would love to hear WotC's explanation for that one.

Cut that in half and it would still be outrageously large; I wouldn’t be surprised if this was the result of bad blood or something. That’s kind of how we got the Astral Construct nerf, I believe.

[Mike Miller]

Cut that in half and it would still be outrageously large; I wouldn’t be surprised if this was the result of bad blood or something. That’s kind of how we got the Astral Construct nerf, I believe.

I could see someone going, "I wonder if anyone will notice this...*writes +18 LA*"
It is ridiculous enough that it couldn't have been a value someone believed would work in play. I find it hard to believe it is a simple typo as the 1 and 8 are far from one another on the keyboard.

[Lans]

I could see someone going, "I wonder if anyone will notice this...*writes +18 LA*"
It is ridiculous enough that it couldn't have been a value someone believed would work in play. I find it hard to believe it is a simple typo as the 1 and 8 are far from one another on the keyboard.

Well, if he meant it to be a +8, I can see hitting the one off the number pad

[danielxcutter]

Actually, do we have explicit proof that the devs intentionally kneecapped a lot of monsters by giving them unfairly high LA? I think the blue was given LA +1 because “it was rare”, which to me sounds like “we don’t want people playing monstrous races so we’re pretending to miss the entire point of the ECL system to make it unfeasible at best”, but that’s about all I can remember.

[DeTess]

If I had to take a guess, the +18 LA might have something to do with the fact that that monster has CL 16 on its SLA's. That's not particularly relevant for any of those SLA's, though. I agree with +1 for the sillit and +2 for the varoot. I think the kalareem is +2 though Its stat boosts, special defenses and other tricks, ignoring the spell resistance is already worth +1 LA imho, and the reflective spell resistance looks really good to me. It maeks casting spells on the creature a far bigger risk than normal spell resistance, and unlike normal spell resistance, it completely negates AoE's on a failed overcome resistance check(as opposed to only protecting the spell resistant one), as it bounces the entire AoE back.

[Efrate]

1/1/2 seems fine. They are all good and outsider HD especially with alter self native access is really really good.

[Thurbane]

I'll go along with +1/+1/+2 for now, and will do a detailed breakdown if I get time, where I might amend my votes.

[liquidformat]

I will go with +1/+1/+2 as well seems about right

[Inevitability]

Octopus Tree

Ever had those come up in your game outside of Summon Nature's Ally?

Octopus trees are Huge 14 RHD oceanic plants, mysteriously lacking the aquatic/amphibious types. Their stats are predictable: high strength, high constitution, somewhat above-baseline wisdom/charisma and below-baseline dexterity/intelligence. Their natural weapons are eight tentacles (each with Improved Grab), and a bite. Their land speed is a low 10 ft., but their swim speed 50 ft., which is impressive for a plant if nothing else.

Their special abilities are pretty good! Regeneration 10 overcome by Cold and Fire isn't that hard to overcome, but still gives tons of free healing. Frightful Presence can be okay, in the right situation. It's got the ability to swallow opponents, too, but that only works on medium-sized or smaller foes, is very convoluted and not really worth it.

Finally, the trees get some SLAs. At-will Diminish Plants/Entangle/Obscure Mist/Warp Wood are cool but a bit underwhelming, and 3/day Call Lightning, Repel Wood, and Wall of Thorns are again not too impressive.

14 plant RHD are barely compensated for by okay abilities, reasonable SLAs, and tentacles. +0 LA.

[danielxcutter]

Ever had those come up in your game outside of Summon Nature's Ally?

Ever had those come up in your game because of Summon Nature’s Ally, either?

[Sutr]

Another tentacle monster in the 10-16 hit die range? +0 I think we've argued huge tentacle monsters enough. This one has twice as many attacks so its damage without optimization falls inside rocket tag though its tentacle does 2d6+10. (8x3.5x2)+80=136. Coincidently the 14 hit die monster presented has 133 hit points so I think it can one round creatures around its CR. It also has a b

Inevitability pointed out which do need to be addressed it gets -2 to intelligence. Its dexterity is complete crap -8 so you can't fall back on combat reflexes with it which is a huge downside. It lacks the amphibious and aquatic subtype, but it has a land movement speed. I'm not really sure that isn't a problem with fiend folios editing around amphibious creatures. I think it might only loose feet, helm and goggles it really should get the other slots though willing to listen on what slots it shouldn't have.

He missed that they can't speak but I have players where that would be an upside because it gives an excuse.

All in all I see a barbarian who went for natural attacks huge size and got some regeneration, spell like abilities, plant type. It will get pounce next level and extra rage and it will be a fine playable creature.

[liquidformat]

Ever had those come up in your game because of Summon Nature’s Ally, either?

Can't say I have ever seen one of these in any game player or DM side....

I think it might only loose feet, helm and goggles it really should get the other slots though willing to listen on what slots it shouldn't have.

For some reason I get a strange image of an Octopus Tree standing in a hero pose with a cape billowing behind it...

Anyways I am on the fence about its score and AFB so will hold off to read some more comments before voting.

[Efrate]

I will go at +0. Had one as a BBEG in a Dungeon I ran. Sadly tpk happened before they reached it because of bad rolls bad luck and stupid choices, but looking at its DPR it would have been very rough if things even moderately well. Huge reach, SLAs to get things out of reach. Its role is basically I am a big thing that makes things dead, but that's all some people want. Almost needs an aquatic game to shine really just because space.

[ZamielVanWeber]

I agree with +0. It is a one tricky pony but it is a heck if a trick and 6 levels leaves it enough time to grab some full BAB class to give itself some polish.

[Thurbane]

Spoiler

Show

Octopus Tree

Ever had those come up in your game outside of Summon Nature's Ally?

Octopus trees are Huge 14 RHD oceanic plants, mysteriously lacking the aquatic/amphibious types. Their stats are predictable: high strength, high constitution, somewhat above-baseline wisdom/charisma and below-baseline dexterity/intelligence. Their natural weapons are eight tentacles (each with Improved Grab), and a bite. Their land speed is a low 10 ft., but their swim speed 50 ft., which is impressive for a plant if nothing else.

Their special abilities are pretty good! Regeneration 10 overcome by Cold and Fire isn't that hard to overcome, but still gives tons of free healing. Frightful Presence can be okay, in the right situation. It's got the ability to swallow opponents, too, but that only works on medium-sized or smaller foes, is very convoluted and not really worth it.

Finally, the trees get some SLAs. At-will Diminish Plants/Entangle/Obscure Mist/Warp Wood are cool but a bit underwhelming, and 3/day Call Lightning, Repel Wood, and Wall of Thorns are again not too impressive.

Considering the 14 plant RHD and decidedly nonhumanoid shape (not to mention the weird flip-flop on aquaticness), as well as a lack of really impressive stats or special abilities, I think -0 LA is the only real possible assignment here. A pity, because these trees look absolutely amazing and I wish they were actually playable.

I can't get enthused for a write-up here: lets just say I vote LA -0 for the reasons outlined above.

[DeTess]

Yeah, I think this'll work just fine at +0 for combat-focused campaigns. Its main weakness is its low speed, but that can be fixed with some wbl and/or picking up some fast movement through one class or another. If I were to build it out I'd pick up barbarian for pounce, and then a couple of levels in scout for speed and skirmish.

[danielxcutter]

Honestly I’m surprised there are so many people who vote higher than Thurbane regularly does. Grappling does not work when enemies can easily have far higher modifiers even without Freedom of Movement and this thing can’t even take Rapidstrike.

[DeTess]

Honestly I’m surprised there are so many people who vote higher than Thurbane regularly does. Grappling does not work when enemies can easily have far higher modifiers even without Freedom of Movement and this thing can’t even take Rapidstrike.

It doesn't need to grapple or rapidstrike though, because it gets 8 attacks at full BaB (because, as can be seen in the statblock, all tentacles are its primary weapon) and decent damage right of the box. Even without a bit more optimization thrown in, that'll be enough to kill one or more enemies outright every turn.

[Blue Jay]

I'm onboard at LA +0 for the octopus tree. It might be a bit unfair to an octopus tree PC: my attempt at building a hullathoin and assassin vine showed me the limitations of grapple-focused builds. But this thing has 9 attacks with big damage and good reach, in top of some really solid defenses, so I think it will be okay.

That huge Dex penalty is a massive handicap, and it its dearth of actual ranged options is exploitable, but I think it still has the resources to build around that. Naturally, the social limitations of being a giant, mean-looking tree are also there, but it's hard to imagine that a DM would allow an octopus tree in a game where that's a major issue and a player will still want to play one in that game, so I'm not really sure how much that should be weighed in evaluations.

[Falontani]

I used a half fiend octopus tree in a campaign as a monster. Of course it attacked civilians as well as the boat, so it didn't straight up tpk the party.

[Dimers]

Bit of a study in contrasts, here. Natural armor: absolutely beastly. Dexterity: wretched. Face-beating while near an enemy: amazing. Ability to get near an enemy: barely extant. Special qualities: very nice. RHD: very poor.

Assuming equal optimization, I expect an octopus tree could make a modest contribution to a party's success, but not enough compared to a standard humanoid PC. I'm looking at the tier list and comparing this to stuff I'm familiar with in tier 4, and I feel like most of them would be notably more effective than an octopus tree ... I mean, even a level 14 fighter could be more useful in many combats thanks to speech, object manipulation, speed, manufactured weapon use and feat chains. I can't give the octopus tree more than LA -0.

That said, I'd enjoy trying to make it work in an all-monster game, and it'd be more viable in an aquatic campaign (after working out the aquatic/amphibious thing).

[lord_khaine]

Honestly I’m surprised there are so many people who vote higher than Thurbane regularly does. Grappling does not work when enemies can easily have far higher modifiers even without Freedom of Movement and this thing can’t even take Rapidstrike.

Because its very few things that are going to out-grapple the tree. I dont know what your looking at. Giants? Huge dragons.
This thing can grabble a lot of stuff. And when it does, the combat is more or less over.

Thats why i vote LA +0.
It might be a bruiser. But its a strong one.

[danielxcutter]

Because its very few things that are going to out-grapple the tree. I dont know what your looking at. Giants? Huge dragons.
This thing can grabble a lot of stuff. And when it does, the combat is more or less over.

Thats why i vote LA +0.
It might be a bruiser. But its a strong one.

Elementals, a lot of outsiders can teleport out with SLAs, a lot of bruisers in general, and you’re often trading your turn for theirs. Honestly I’d rather just go with a bruiser rather than a grappler, if I absolutely had to.

Actually, can someone do the numbers? That should make it clearer either way.

[lord_khaine]

Well they are huge plants. That should honestly make them able to grapple most things of CR 13 and below.
Even giants. At least if treant stats are anything to go by.

And yeah you need to dimensional achor outsiders to prevent them getting out of grapples.
You need to do so anyway to prevent them from fleeing with their loot.

[Inevitability]

Ocularon

More tentacle monsters!

Ocularons are 12 RHD Large aberrations. Stats are disappointing (nothing above +8), speed is great (90 ft. perfect flight) and special qualities are pretty neat (Regeneration 4 overcome by silver/keen weapons, blindsight, all-around vision, acid immunity, DR). Natural weapons are four reasonably strong tendrils that all have improved grab. Unlike most tentacled/large monsters (let alone those that are both), ocularons only get five feet of reach.

The special abilities are a mix of gross and useful. Death Throes is mostly useless because most PCs don't die that often (and even if you do, 3d6 damage and poison aren't that impressive). Steal Eyes lets you tear out the eyes of the stuff you grapple, permanently blinding them unless they succeed on a high-DC fortitude save.

Animate Eyeballs then lets you animate the eyes, using them as scouts (in conjunction with SLAs) or weapons: all eyes are infused with strength/constitution damaging poison gas. As no adventuring party will ever find itself short on eyes to harvest, this is actually pretty cool as far as disposable scouts go.

The SLAs are at-will Arcane Eye (only usable on those eyes you've stolen), and 3/day Darkness, Invisibility, Passwall, and True Seeing. The last of those has the same restriction on usage as Arcane Eye, all the others can be used eyeless.

It's unclear how well an ocularon can actually manipulate objects, and it doesn't have the greatest offensive presence (though I guess it can fly behind enemy lines and grapple a squishy). 12 aberration RHD aren't the greatest either. That said, +0 LA for now, I'm sure people can make this work.

[Dimers]

The melee abilities are not horrible. Would be better if they could remove eyes on the same round as they hit, but that'd be kinda nasty for PCs to fight against, so it makes sense they weren't given the ability. Damage is okay and number of primary attacks is fine.

The stats modifiers don't get above +8, but all six are positive, totalling +36. That's very versatile. The Int bonus is wasted on their class skill list, sadly. At least they're useful skills.

I'd compare this to a warlock (maybe a clawlock?), who at 12 HD will have one greater invocation, three lesser (possibly four with a feat) and three least. The ocularon's flight and senses will be better than a warlock's, it'll be tougher by far, damage is probably about even, warlock has access to better control options but won't necessarily have chosen them. The difference in flexibility is vast, though -- the warlock just picked up Imbue Item and has class access to UMD.

Item slots and armor are problematic but not a major factor. I'm assuming manipulation is good enough if the thing can accurately rip the eyeballs out of a sprite.

I'll give the ocularon LA +0. For advancement, maybe crusader? Barbarian? It's kinda late to be getting into incarnum or spells, though duskblade and beguiler seem like solid choices.

[danielxcutter]

Hmm... Honestly, I like these a lot better, at least as a PC.

The damage on the tentacles isn't nearly as good as the Octopus Tree, and eight primary attacks is still better than four primaries with Rapidstrike. On the other ha - er, tentacle - if it takes only full BAB classes it can take Improved Rapidstrike at HD 18, which actually is pretty good!

The SLA restrictions are not much of a problem, because as mentioned it's very unlikely you'll actually run out of eyes. I suppose if you're trying to play a Good aligned PC then it might be a bit eh, but, well... there's nothing from stopping you from using animal eyes, right? If you get around the "most civilized folk will try to murder you" problem half the creatures we've reviewed will likely run into, buying some cow, sheep, or pig eyes from the local butcher can't be that hard.

Flight (perfect) as an (Ex) ability is quite good. Most situations where magical flight is impossible are situations where you're screwed anyways, but at least that's one thing that won't go away from a Dispel Magic at the wrong time.

The poison isn't super good, but that's most poisons anyways. It's not too hard to increase the DC to relevant degrees and the stats it damages are stats that arcane casters likely don't have much of.

Holy crap so that's where Keen regeneration is from. I think that was mentioned in the Seven Kingdoms campaign journal as "Most obscure regeneration ever" or something. Anyways, Keen weapons aren't too common? And amusingly, this means Impact weapons won't help with that either.

Blindsight is nice, of course. Shame you don't have normal vision, though.

[liquidformat]

Is regen negated by silver and keen or silver or keen? Either way Ocularon seems like a pretty good scout, We can use the magic item layout of grell so that should be straight forward, all around they seem to have pretty decent abilities though it is unclear if they can use their tentacles as manipulators (it will be much better if they can), all and all I think they just barely make the +0 cut. Going forward I would guess a barbarian dip then swordsage, swordsage's disciplines seem to fit well with the Ocularon though crusader and warblade work too.

[Blue Jay]

Blindsight is nice, of course. Shame you don't have normal vision, though.

I think it does have normal vision. Sort of. The "All-Around Vision" ability text seems to imply that you get normal vision (and all-around vision) when you have stolen eyes on your tendrils, but you lose it when you use up the stolen eyes.

I kind of like eyeball theme of the monster, with the eyeball drones and stuff;but I'm not keen on the "tearing people's eyeballs out" aspect of it: that's a bit gruesome for me.

The scouting abilities are nice, but the ability scores and NA are just a bit lower than I'd want them to be. I think I'm with liquidformat again: the ocularon just barely makes it to LA +0.

[danielxcutter]

I think it does have normal vision. Sort of. The "All-Around Vision" ability text seems to imply that you get normal vision (and all-around vision) when you have stolen eyes on your tendrils, but you lose it when you use up the stolen eyes.

I kind of like eyeball theme of the monster, with the eyeball drones and stuff;but I'm not keen on the "tearing people's eyeballs out" aspect of it: that's a bit gruesome for me.

The scouting abilities are nice, but the ability scores and NA are just a bit lower than I'd want them to be. I think I'm with liquidformat again: the ocularon just barely makes it to LA +0.

Oh yeah you're right, it has that if it has eyes.