The LA-assignment thread VIII: Way Too Much For Vampirism

[lord_khaine]

so lets see. Flight? regeneration? blindsight? LA +1

[Debatra]

so lets see. Flight? regeneration? blindsight? LA +1

Twelve meh/bad RHD and a body shape that makes equipment a major issue. Either a weak +0 or a strong -0.

[Caelestion]

A "strong" -0 is rather pointless, as the whole point of -0 is that it needs fewer RHD to be competitive. I think that +0 is probably serviceable.

[liquidformat]

Twelve meh/bad RHD and a body shape that makes equipment a major issue. Either a weak +0 or a strong -0.

Don't forget it most likely can't use its tentacles as manipulators, doors will forever be a major problem for Ocularons...

[Dimers]

Don't forget it most likely can't use its tentacles as manipulators, doors will forever be a major problem for Ocularons...

It can, as an (Ex) ability, remove the eyes from a Fine creature without otherwise altering the creature at all. You're gonna tell me it can't handle a doorknob? (I have opinions, yes I do.)

EDIT: Now I totally want to see an ocularon beating down a beholder. Would have to get a size increase, though. 17 HD would do the trick.

[Lilapop]

Just noticed, because it came up in my group... the discussion came up with +1 for trolls, but the main post and the entry in the archive table still have them at +0.

[Thurbane]

Now, this is an interesting one...the floating, eye-stealing jellyfish of doom!

• Large Aberration (without reach . I think there's a feat for that?)
• 12 RHD of a not-great kind (d8 HD, medium BAB, 1 good save, 2 skill points/'level')
• Speed 10 ft, fly 90 ft (perfect): sweet.
• +10 natural AC: decent.
• 4 tendrils 2d6, and animated eyeballs (3d6 ranged attack + poison).
• Animate eyeballs: combination sensors and weapons.
• Death throes: as stated, not much use to a PC.
• Improved grab: as to be expected for this kind of creature. Good for any grappling build.
• Poison: only delivered by animated eyes or on death throes, 1d4 Str + 1d4 Con/1d4 Str + 1d4 Con).
• SLAs: at will - arcane eye (using animated eyes); 3/day - darkness, invisibility passwall, true seeing (requiring stolen eyes). A small but decent suite of SLAs.
• Steal eyes: Fort save from a grappled enemy or have its eyes removed. Ouch.
• Acid immunity: niche, but decent.
• All-around vision, blindsight 80 ft.,darkvision 60 ft: very solid senses.
• DR 10 magic (?): still relevant against non- weapon wielding foes.
• Poison immunity: a solid defense.
• Regeneration 4: overcome by silver or keen weapons. Very nice.
• Str +8, Dex +4, Con +6, Int +8, Wis +4, Cha +6: net +36; bonuses all around, and no penalties!
• Small but decent racial skill list focused on stealth and perception.

Very weird body shape (a generous DM might let it use similar magic item slots to a Grell). Unsure if tendrils can really manipulate items (DMs call, but I'd lean towards no myself*). It can speak, which is always a bonus.

Great movement, decent attacks, a few utility abilities, decent senses, decent immunities/resistances (especially the regeneration), and positive ability mods all around. Weighed up against 12 RHD, and a weird body type that will likely have difficulty manipulating items.

I'm happy to call this LA +0; I might even be swayed to +1, but I'll stick to +0 at this stage. 12 lost levels is a lot.

DM note: hadn't really read up on these guys before, will definitely be using one as an encounter in the future! They have a somewhat Lovecraftian flavour that I like.

P.S. is it just me, or are there oddly quite a few eye/sight stealing monsters in D&D?

It can, as an (Ex) ability, remove the eyes from a Fine creature without otherwise altering the creature at all. You're gonna tell me it can't handle a doorknob? (I have opinions, yes I do.)

*Actually that's a pretty persuasive point...

[Inevitability]

Ophidiad

Snake people, but not too snakey.

Ophidiads are quite unremarkable chassis-wise. +4 dexterity is nice, +2 strength is cool, -2 intelligence hurts a bit. A climb and swim speed are still relevant at low levels (although the low land speed sucks), an 1d4 bite perhaps too, but for 3 monstrous humanoid RHD it's all a bit weak.

The snakes only have one special ability: Serpentine Curse, which gradually transforms bitten humanoids into more of its kind over the course of a few days. It is, obviously, completely useless for PCs, unless you want to make sure some NPC with Resurrection support stops bothering you.

You could strip away the RHD and have a so-so +1 LA race, you could just nerf it a bit and make it work as a regular player race, but with 3 RHD I'm very sceptical this is outperforming even a half-elf. -0 LA for now, open to arguments for +0.

[DeTess]

Let's see, they 3 natural armor, net +4 stats, darkvision, a climb and swim speed, a bite attack, and a curse that's fairly useless. I'd personally bundle the bite, darkvision and it's swim speed as a standard LA+0 race, which means the 3 rhd pay for 3 natural armor, a climb speed, +4 stats and a useless curse. That's really nowhere near enough. Like, I'd probably get more use out of 3 levels of monk if I really optimized, and I'd definitely get more out of 3 levels of fighter with some moderately smart feat picks. LA -0 for this one.

[danielxcutter]

Let's see, they 3 natural armor, net +4 stats, darkvision, a climb and swim speed, a bite attack, and a curse that's fairly useless. I'd personally bundle the bite, darkvision and it's swim speed as a standard LA+0 race, which means the 3 rhd pay for 3 natural armor, a climb speed, +4 stats and a useless curse. That's really nowhere near enough. Like, I'd probably get more use out of 3 levels of monk if I really optimized, and I'd definitely get more out of 3 levels of fighter with some moderately smart feat picks. LA -0 for this one.

Three levels gives you the Zentharim ACF, so...

[Efrate]

Not too snakey snake is a -0.

[Thurbane]

Another creature I'm quite the fan of as a DM.

• Medium Monstrous Humanoid (reptilian)
• 3 RHD (full BAB, 2 good saves, 2 skill points/HD)
• Speed 20 ft, climb 15 ft, swim 50 ft: base speed of 20 isn't great, but having two extra movement modes is good.
• +3 natural AC: small boost.
• Bite 1d4 (+ serpentine curse).
• Sepentine curse: rider effect on a bite - low DC fort save or a humanoid turns into an Ophidian 1d4+1 days later. No use in combat, or much use for a PC at all.
• Darkvision 60 ft.
• Str +2, Dex +4, Int -2: net +4, with a small hit to int, which will hurts skills etc.
• Small but mostly useful racial skill list. +8 racial bonus on Climb and Swim checks, +10 bonus to Hide checks in forests or underground.
• Proficient with scimitars and shields.

Medium and basically humanoid in form, can speak and wield items. No issues with class progression or gear (although armor may need to accommodate a tail).

I'm going to call this LA +0: not great, but playable IMHO. Maybe it's my fondness for the race talking.

My VC stub that was based on an Ophidian:

Spoiler

Show

Szilsass

Medium Outsider (native, reptilian)

Divine Minion (of Sebek) Monster of Legend Ophidian Cleric 6/Swordsage 1/Contemplative 9

CR	Class	Base Attack Bonus	Fort Save	Ref Save	Will Save	Skills	Feats	Class Features
4	Monstrous Humanoid Outsider 3	+3	+1	+3	+3	Concentration 3, Knowledge (nature) 3, Listen 6, Spot 6	Improved InitiativeB, Lion's Pounce, MultiattackB, Natural Spell	Darkvision 60 ft, enhanced attributes, fast wildshape, fear immunity, reflective hide, serpentine curse, spells
5	Cleric 1	+x	+x	+x	+x	Concentration 3, Knowledge (religion)	Animal DevotionB	Domains (animal, scalykind), rebuke undead
6	Cleric 2	+x	+x	+x	+x	Skills	-	-
7	Cleric 3	+x	+x	+x	+x	Skills	Knowledge Devotion	-
8	Cleric 4	+x	+x	+x	+x	Skills	-	-
9	Cleric 5	+x	+x	+x	+x	Skills	-	-
10	Cleric 6	+7	+6	+5	+8	Skills	Extend Spell	-
11	Swordsage 1	+7	+6	+7	+10	Knowledge (religion) 13	-	Quick to act +1, discipline focus (weapon focus), maneuvers, stances
12	Contemplative 1	+x	+x	+x	+x	Skills	-	Bonus domain (animal), divine health
13	Contemplative 2	+x	+x	+x	+x	Concentration 3, Knowledge (nature) 15, Listen 6, Spot 6	Dragon Wild Shape	Slippery mind
14	Contemplative 3	+x	+x	+x	+x	Skills	-	-
15	Contemplative 4	+x	+x	+x	+x	Skills	-	Divine wholeness
16	Contemplative 5	+x	+x	+x	+x	Skills	Persistent Spell	Divine body
17	Contemplative 6	+x	+x	+x	+x	Skills	-	Bonus domain (evil)
18	Contemplative 7	+x	+x	+x	+x	Skills	-	Divine soul
19	Contemplative 8	+x	+x	+x	+x	Skills	Divine Metamagic	-
20	Contemplative 9	+11	+9	+10	+16	Skills	-	Eternal body

Sources:
Complete Arcane - Persistent Spell
Complete Champion - Animal Devotion, Knowledge Devotion
Complete Divine - Contemplative, Divine Metamagic, Lion's Pounce
Draconomicon - Dragon Wild Shape
Fiend Folio - Ophidian
Monster Manual II - Monster of Legend
Online - Divine Minion
Tome of Battle - Swordsage

[liquidformat]

Serpent curse can be completely ignored as it doesn't actually do anything, as has already been mentioned. With everything left this doesn't measure up to 3 rhd even if these are full bab rhd. I think if it had 2 rhd or no RHD and +1 it would be just right. As is -0 LA

[Dimers]

A half-elf barbarian3 would be better at offense and a little weaker for defense, poorer in movement options but much faster on land, more skilled in general but substantially worse off in getting places she's not supposed to be ... eh ... I agree with Thurbane, it's not great, but it's playable. LA +0.

[liquidformat]

A half-elf barbarian3 would be better at offense and a little weaker for defense, poorer in movement options but much faster on land, more skilled in general but substantially worse off in getting places she's not supposed to be ... eh ... I agree with Thurbane, it's not great, but it's playable. LA +0.

If you have to use a half-elf barbarian 3 to put a monster in a good light it is clearly a -0...

Compared to a water orc barbarian 2/warblade1 or even shifter barbarian 2/warblade 1 this thing is -0.

[lord_khaine]

If you have to use a half-elf barbarian 3 to put a monster in a good light it is clearly a -0...

½ elf is the lower bound for a PC race. Barbarian is a viable class choice.
Since its better than that, its LA + 0.

That something cant compete with a multiclass water ork (definitly a race that deserves a LA), does not mean its useless as a PC race.

Looking at a Warblade 1 Ophidiad. Then it would definitly be able to contribute fighting CR 4 encounters.

[TotallyNotEvil]

+0 sounds about right, yeah.

[liquidformat]

½ elf is the lower bound for a PC race. Barbarian is a viable class choice.
Since its better than that, its LA + 0.

I stand by my belief that half-elf is -0 just like goblin

[Debatra]

Compared to a water orc barbarian 2/warblade1 or even shifter barbarian 2/warblade 1 this thing is -0.

We don't compare things against optimized builds here unless they're already powerful enough to warrant it.

[Blue Jay]

For the ophidian, the Climb and Swim speeds are nice, but I'm not sure there's enough otherwise: NA is on-par, stat modifiers are below par, and none of the special abilities are terribly interesting or useful. This would be solid at 2 HD, but at 3 HD, I think I'm going to vote LA -0 for the ophidian.

[danielxcutter]

Well, intentionally unoptimized builds are just as inaccurate really. Human is a bit much... how about dwarves or warforged?

[Temotei]

I think LA +0 is alright here.

[ZamielVanWeber]

At 3 HD of monstrous humanoid is competes directly with anthro ape (2 HD) and anthro whale (3 HD) and really comes up short. I agree this is a +0 at 2 but at 3 HD I will have to vote -0.

[Caelestion]

I'm happy to consider this LA +0.

[liquidformat]

We don't compare things against optimized builds here unless they're already powerful enough to warrant it.

Hence why I mentioned shifter barbarian 2/warblade 1 aswell as waterorc, shifter isn't exactly an optimized race if I remember correctly it is on the bottom end along with half-orc and yet it still looks better than an Ophidiad. If your argument is that having two classes some how makes it optimized then lets compare it to shifter warblade 3, it still doesn't come out looking good. For practical purposes barbarian 2/warblade 1 or barbarian 1/warblade 2 is no more optimized than warblade 3 and doesn't do anything to help Ophidiad in comparison. It is just lacking something having 3 rhd. Monstrous humanoid rhd are nice but without the racial features to backup the rhd you might as well be taking warrior levels they are on the same level.

As has been said I believe Ophidiad has enough racial features for 2 rhd and falls short for 3 rhd.

[danielxcutter]

How do they compare to the Khaasta?

[liquidformat]

How do they compare to the Khaasta?

not well, Khaasta has +6 NA, 1d4 damage bite attack, +8str +2 dex +4 con +2 int net 16 and though it doesn't have a great skills list it is vaguely interesting. But we also said Khaasta is +1 la...

[danielxcutter]

not well, Khaasta has +6 NA, 1d4 damage bite attack, +8str +2 dex +4 con +2 int net 16 and though it doesn't have a great skills list it is vaguely interesting. But we also said Khaasta is +1 la...

Oh yeah, right.

Anything else with 3 RHD and isn't incorporeal?

[liquidformat]

Oh yeah, right.

Anything else with 3 RHD and isn't incorporeal?

So doing a quick look at +1 we have carrion crawler, Sea Hag, Hippogriff, Imp, and Quasit

At +0 we have dire badger and Dire Weasel

at -0 we have bugbear

Sea hag is dramatically better and so are dire weasel and dire badger once they have been awakened. The Ophidiad and the bugbear are actually pretty comparable, both have 3 NA and darkvision, bugbear has +4 move silent whereas Ophidiad has +8 swim, climb and +10 hide in selected locations, bugbear has land speed 30' but Ophidiad has swim and climb speeds, bugbear has net 6 ability scores with a hit to cha which to be frank is a much better dump stat than int, but bugbear has the worse humanoid rhd, Ophidiad has a bite attack whereas bugbear has scent. All and all I think the two are pretty even though Ophidiad does have a slight edge because of monstrous humanoid hd but I still don't think it is enough for a +0.

To be frank I would easily rather take half-orc or shifter barbarian 1 or 2/warblade 1 or 2 over Ophidiad.

[danielxcutter]

So, do the -0 party think it’s a strong -0?