The LA-assignment thread VIII: Way Too Much For Vampirism

[ZamielVanWeber]

I concur with unavenger. If they can do okay relative to a human in a decent class, they are likely fine. +0

[Thurbane]

Just a little something to note: -4 BAB means they are 4 full levels behind full BAB types on getting iteratives.

Sure, that doesn't matter as much if you are focusing on manoeuvres (most of which are a standard action to use) - but on the occasions where you just need to lay the smack down with multiple attacks, you are at somewhat of a disadvantage, despite your Str boost.

Not trying to change anyone's vote, just thought I'd mention it.

[Temotei]

Crusader does tend to favor the oread more than other full BAB classes, even among initiators, since they almost invariably have standard action strikes. If you look at a barbarian, the oread is going to be way behind on damage because of the BAB loss. My example favors the oread because I think crusader fits them quite well, and I avoided multiclassing (bardsader being an easy one) for simplicity. Almost any other build will put the oread well behind a human with a similar setup, and even in the crusader example, I don't think the oread is ever significantly ahead, if ever ahead at all. If they are, it's only for a level, maybe two. Good for a one-shot at ECL 8-9?

[danielxcutter]

I’d say Crusader is the best of the ToB classes for one, yes. Whether that would be good enough is a different question, though I may have ideas depending on their CR. :3

[lord_khaine]

However, as has been said many times before D&D is a game focused around offense, having decent defense in the end doesn't help much especially when it can so easily be over come by instead just using touch attacks. Oread also doesn't have enough SLAs nor useful enough to be focused on just using SLAs all combat every combat. most of his SLAs can only be used once maybe twice in each combat after that he has to wade into melee because he has nothing else up his sleeve. at which point if not for his +9 NA and +8 con score, he would easily be taken out because of his d6 rhd, he just barely has the HP for melee combat.

That it has been said many times does not make it true, or even important. It just makes it something that has been said many times.
I disagreed with that in thread 1. I disagreed with it in thread 2, i.. well you get my point here in thread 8.

And yes AC can easily be overcome with touch attacks. That would be relevant if the wast majority of monsters players are likely to encounter has a meaningful choice there.
But they dont. And so something that can claw/bite/sword the rest of the party on a 11+ would need a natural 20 to land a scratch on her.
Where we also from Temotei's analyses saw that she actually has more HP than a regular warrior type.

Sure, that doesn't matter as much if you are focusing on manoeuvres (most of which are a standard action to use) - but on the occasions where you just need to lay the smack down with multiple attacks, you are at somewhat of a disadvantage, despite your Str boost

Cant have anything. In return the Oread is even better at builds designed around outlasting the opponent crusader style.
Or with stuff centered around for example area control though a spiked chain. Higher dex for combat reflexes. Higher str for trip checks.

[Sutr]

This thing is capable of casting earthquake a 7th level spell with 7 hit die, and people are saying its not playable. Seems like a weird rogue that needs to figure what else to do other than control a ground based battlefield. +0* need to reread all the rock based spell likes it gets but the frame doesn't look to bad.

[ExLibrisMortis]

This thing is capable of casting earthquake a 7th level spell with 7 hit die, and people are saying its not playable. Seems like a weird rogue that needs to figure what else to do other than control a ground based battlefield. +0 need to reread all the rock based spell likes it gets but the frame doesn't look to bad.

It's playable, it's just not quite strong enough for ECL 7. LA -0 can be trash, but it isn't always.

Earthquake is an interesting one. It's an 8th-level spell at CL 14, which is great. It can automatically collapse a building or cave almost 1000' away. It can even kill multiple targets outright, and it doesn't have the [death] tag. Earthquake really sounds like a great nuke. It takes a closer look to find out that it isn't.

Earthquake, in all its forms, only deals 8d6 damage to creatures, with a DC 15 Reflex save for half damage. Reasonable numbers at ECL 7, but neither the damage nor the DC scales--this quickly fades to nothing. Earthquake affects allies in its area, and the 80' radius isn't very selective. Earthquake can kill targets when cast on open ground, but in that case, it won't do any damage at all, affect only 25% of targets, still allows a save, and allows a full round to escape the fissure and avoid death. The chances of killing a given target are less than 10%. Flying creatures are, of course, entirely immune.

Overall, earthquake has some amazing uses in siegecraft, but as an encounter-solver, it's actually pretty balanced at ECL 7 (unless your encounter is literally a siege, in which case--you brought a minor deity of rock to a siege, of bloody course it's a walkover).

[TotallyNotEvil]

Okay, fine, "Making an entirely reasonable character that serves as a decent point of comparison at most tables I've played at." Whatever. It's fine.

You know what, yeah. That is a persuasive argument.

+0* for the Oread, it's not bad, it's just a side-grade.

Less raw power than a straight classed human in exchange of neat SLAs, a common element type immunity and +9 NA is perfectly fine.

If you are not going to full attack because you are using maneuvers, and I believe we all agree using maneuvers is both fun and effective, the +8 STR makes up for the BAB and then some, as it gets you all the accuracy you lost while also giving you damage. The PA using human will have to ding the former to increase the latter just to match the Oread's Strenght-based damage output.

Rocking an easy 30+ AC at level 8, without buffs, is pretty damn great, and your HP doesn't lag behind a Human Crusader, in fact overtaking it, so no complaints there either.

Beststicks don't lack in damage, they lack in utility and versatility. Here's a race that gives you a ton of earth-based tricks, including the seriously powerful Earthquake, to play around with. Your Burrow Speed and a big pile of skill points also help considerably in that regard, making you more than just your average brute.

Overall, I'd easily play Oread Crusader 1 in a lv 8 party and feel pretty good about it. Tough (high HP, AC, saves), hits hard, Charm Monster + powerful and varied Earth Bending.

[Caelestion]

I'll go with LA +0 as well.

[TotallyNotEvil]

I think the SLAs are being underestimated, too. Let's take a closer look:
SLAs: at will - stone tell; 3/day charm monster, soften earth and stone, spike stones, stone shape, transmute rock to mud; 1/day earthquake, move earth.

- Stone Tell at will: Strong investigative ability. Postcognition on anything stone.
- Charm Monster: We all know it's good.
- Spike Stones: Generate an enormous area (a 20ft square per level) of difficult terrain that damages people per 5 ft moved and every time they take damage they have to save or have their speed reduced to half their normal. This is some hard control for earthbound creatures folks.
- Soften Earth: Lower level than the others on the list so can't affect worked stone, it's still a difficult terrain generator that can even stop people from casting spells for a couple rounds on a failed reflex and it's a fairly wide terrain manipulation ability, plenty useful.
- Stone Shape: discount stone-only Fabricate, great utility.
- Transmute Rock to Mud: Straight up a good combat spell.
- Earthquake: Level 8 "**** these buildings, and the people on them too".
- Move Earth: Very humbly named, actually capable of large scale terrain manipulation, moving up to 5.65 million cubic feet of earth.

These SLAs aren't weak, they simply follow a theme. If your theme is inapplicable, you still have your strong chassis and whatever classes you pick up. If it is applicable, you are incredibly awesome at it.

I too discounted them at first glance, but fellow Playgrounders, taking a closer look at these will probably surprise you.

On a creature with 7 okay HD, +30 net stat bonuses (and no penalties), +9 NA, Cold Immunity (without vulnerability to Fire!), Burrow Speed, a bunch of skill points and these SLAs do not make for -0.

[DeTess]

Yeah, I think I'm going to vote +0* as well. Solid stats offset its poorer base chassis for a martial initiator, and its SLA's should be useful in a lot of situations, even if they're not always optimal. The GM will have to rule something to deal with the mountain dependency, but if that's dealt with it'll make fora solid PC.

[Temotei]

The more I look at my analysis, the more I'm convincing myself to switch to +0.

I never really was underestimating the SLAs, but they're hard to compare to a role you signed up for with crusader (or any other melee, I guess, but once you get into classes that prefer full attacks you're behind for a while as an oread), so I kind of just said "this might be worth +0" and resigned to think about it for a day or two.

Well, I thought about it. Mind changed. +0.

Still kind of on the fence because their progression gets rocky (), but being pretty good for a few levels is...still pretty good, and it's not like they suddenly drop off the face of a cliff after that point.

[Dimers]

Yep, LA+0*, no new insights to add to the discussion. EDIT: Right, forgot the asterisk. Fixed.

[Thurbane]

I think I've read enough to change my vote to LA +0* as well. I still feel it suffers from a bit of lack of focus, but seems it can do OK with at least one class progression (Crusader).

[Sutr]

+0* Sorry missed my asterisk. This might be a weird question but is incarnate archer with charming the arrow a possibility? Probably needing a fighter dip. I might just be building a rather annoying recurring villain now

[Inevitability]

Phiuhl

Stick your tongue out, say 'viol', and you should pronounce this pretty well.

The phiuhl is the hell-roaming spirit of a slain elemental, so naturally its typing is outsider elemental undead aberration? It's large-sized, has 9 RHD, and despite mostly consisting of evil energies and vapor has a land speed (one higher than its fly speed, even). This gaseous nature protects them from critical hits, but unfortunately also prevents them from interacting with most objects, entering water, or wearing armor. I'm tempted to assign an asterisk for this alone: even ghosts aren't this limited in their interactions with the material world.

Ability scores are okayish: high dexterity and constitution but everything else is average.

Their defensive qualities are pretty good: resistance 20 to a number of common damage types, poison immunity, DR 10/magic, SR 21, and the interesting Inscrutable Mind ability. It doesn't quite give immunity to mind-affecting effects, but it does punish a number of the nastier effects (Dominate Monster, for one) with save-or-feeblemind.

Offensively, these aberrations have two unimpressive (1d10) heat touches, as well as an always-on heat damage aura. They can inflict negative levels on creatures whose space they share, and also excude a constitution-damaging poison (1d10 damage on both saves) in a radius of fifty feet. The latter ability interestingly stops working against creatures that save once, which is pretty rare for poison effects but understandable from a game design perspective (it also makes immunizing your allies slightly easier).

Is the phiuhl good? It can be bulky and slowly drain someone's levels, it can maybe enter some fast-casting slash initiator class, and it can inflict some pretty nasty constitution damage, but versus foes that can take fire/poison attacks it struggles. The combination of always-on harm auras, no ability to interact with objects, and arguably no ability to speak don't help either.

In the end, a phiuhl might work (as in, not be an active liability) in a specialized party that's fully poison-immune and able to benefit from its unique skillset. However, fitting such a character in will be extremely difficult, and even if you were to somehow get rid of Gaseous Form there's still the aberration RHD, unimpressive stats, and lack of clear advancement.

-0 LA or -0* LA, depending on whether Gaseous Form warrants an asterisk.

[liquidformat]

Yeah I think I will switch back to +0*

Phiuhl seems a pretty straight forward -0 LA, interesting concept but not very powerful.

[Dimers]

Wow, that's ... crippling. And weird and ungood. LA -0, no asterisk for me. Gaseous Form mostly causes a LACK of interactions with the gameworld, not unexpected and metagame-dangerous interactions.

[Blue Jay]

I think three might be a record for number of simultaneous passive attack forms. That's a rather interesting mix of effects: poison, fire damage and negative levels, just for standing near/on somebody.

As I'm trying to imagine this thing in combat, the image I'm getting is basically Eeyore, floating around dejectedly with his gaseous shoulders drooped and saying "nobody likes me," completely oblivious to the calamities that are going on around him: people screaming, catching fire, choking to death and shriveling as their levels go away. Add in a blade barrier spell or a weapon-animating effect (like the blade spirit from RTEE), and maybe the ravid's object-animating aura, one of the magnetic auras from the lodestone marauder (MMIV), and something that causes earthquakes or storm clouds. Then, he'll be a walking catastrophe.

I'm tempted to build it.

But, beyond being intentionally silly with it, it's not worth much as a PC. I'm voting LA -0 for the phiuhl.

P.S. I've been pronouncing it "fye-ull" in my head. But maybe the designers were going for a fire pun with an obscurely-spelled version of "fuel"?

[Dimers]

it's not worth much as a PC. I'm voting LA +0 for the phiuhl.

If it's not worth much, why not -0 instead? It doesn't look to me like it puts in a reasonable contribution in a level 9 party.

Oh, should've said before -- it's explicitly Extraplanar and looks like the kind of thing that deserves banishing, so, yay, extra way to be completely invalidated in a single action.

[Thurbane]

Another from my list of worst monster names.

I don't think I can summon the enthusiasm for a detailed breakdown. I'm going to vote LA -0 for the reasons already mentioned.

Curious about the Desiccation ability: it inflicts negative levels without being called out as energy drain or negative energy. Does that mean Death Ward would offer no protection?

[Blue Jay]

If it's not worth much, why not -0 instead? It doesn't look to me like it puts in a reasonable contribution in a level 9 party.

Oh, should've said before -- it's explicitly Extraplanar and looks like the kind of thing that deserves banishing, so, yay, extra way to be completely invalidated in a single action.

Oh crap! I meant that to be -0. I'll fix it!

[ExLibrisMortis]

Good pronunciation guide, Inevitability. LA -0 for me too.

[danielxcutter]

It’s an elemental fart cloud of death. I’d be surprised if it did make for a good PC.

LA -0, and I doubt this is going to be contended that much.

[Debatra]

Yeah, a fairly clear -0*, but still -0 regardless of an asterisk.

Or did I forget something and the asterisk is meant for things that would be playable without the one specific thing? Because this really isn't.

[danielxcutter]

Yeah, a fairly clear -0*, but still -0 regardless of an asterisk.

Or did I forget something and the asterisk is meant for things that would be playable without the one specific thing? Because this really isn't.

More like “DM caution”, whether the PC is literally unplayable without some finagling(such as Dryads) or that can get completely out of hand(such as Protean Scourges).

[Sutr]

-0* seems more than fair no argument here. 2 negative levels was doable by a wizard 2 levels ago at range without a save. This has to end its turn in someone elses square so it can allow a save to do that while sucking up an AoO, can't use equipment and cant manipulate objects or interact.

[liquidformat]

Yeah, a fairly clear -0*, but still -0 regardless of an asterisk.

Or did I forget something and the asterisk is meant for things that would be playable without the one specific thing? Because this really isn't.

Why do you think it needs an asterisk? I am not seeing any abilities it has that would have to be removed before you put Phil in the hands of players...

[Mike Miller]

-0 no asterisk needed

[Inevitability]

Planetouched

Why is this post a day late? It's hard to explane.

Maeluths

Maeluths, first of the four planetouched in this book, are fiend-descended dwarves, and use their stats with subtle changes. In addition to the outsider typing, their abilities are a bit different (instead of +2 constitution -2 charisma, they have +4 constitution and -2 dexterity), and they lose the dwarvish weapon familiarities as well as the Stability trait. In return, they get Fiend Hammer, which can turn one of their melee weapons Unholy for one minute a day. Also, dwarves have plenty of racial support that maeluths can't access.

Are maeluths better than regular dwarves? Probably: the outsider typing is neat, the stats are better, and the miscellaneous traits are too small to matter much either way. Are they better than the really good +0 LA races? Probably not!

Given that aasimar and tiefling got +0 LA, I'm inclined to extend the same favor here. The maeluths will be strong, but manageable, and making them +1 would render them unusuable. Any concerned GM could perhaps try allowing lesser maeluths instead.

Mechanatrix

The game helpfully informs us that mechanatrices are descended from 'one of the bizarre clockwork beings that inhabit the plane of Mechanus' and leaves the specifics of their ancestry for us to figure out. Seriously, even if you throw in 'magic' how exactly is this supposed to work?

Anyway, these miraculous outsiders have a neat +2 constitution, +2 intelligence, -2 dexterity, -2 charisma. They can use Shocking Grasp once per day, heal from electricity damage (very useful if an ally can deal it at-will), and have a racial bonus on Spot and Knowledge (Architecture and Engineering).

That stat spread is cool, and so are the other bonuses, but I'm comfortable assigning +0 here as well. Again, these are strong, but not +1 LA-worthy.

Shyft

-2 strength, +2 dexterity, +2 wisdom, -2 charisma. Some energy resistances, a small racial bonus on Hide and Move Silently, obvious +0 LA right? Except these guys get 1/day Ethereal Jaunt, cast at level 9 (or its own character level).

While a 7th-level spell might seem disruptive, its power is relatively constrained. You only stay ethereal for one minute, can't hop in and out as you wish, and can't take others along. This means that its uses are limited to short-range scouting, rapidly 'hiding' for a short time, and maybe retreating when in trouble. You can't use it to bypass significant chunks of a dungeon, it won't let you get the drop on monsters (at least, not unless you want to be the only target in melee range when combat starts), and it won't let you spy on people usefully, no matter what the flavortext will tell you.

+0 LA, arguably more interesting for the stats than the SLA.

Wispling

Demonic halflings! Honestly, I should feature a seemingly-peaceful halfling village that turns out to consist entirely of wisplings sometimes.

1/day Disguise Self is pretty cool, getting basically all halfling traits is neat as well, and -2 strength +4 dexterity +2 intelligence is pretty great. +0 LA should be fine here as well, though I see the argument for +1.