The LA-assignment thread VIII: Way Too Much For Vampirism

[Thurbane]

So in a similar boat as Blackguards? Not quite the dedicated sneak as a Rogue but a whole lot better than most other martials, and a bit of magical abilities to back that up?

Probably not a bad comparison point, actually.

So these are the creatures born with hearts full of neutrality.

If I don't survive, tell my wife, "Hello."

Spoiler

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Traits common to all Rilmani:

• Outsider traits: darkvision 60 ft, cannot be raised or resurrected.
• Immune to electricity: solid.
• Resist acid 20, sonic 20: decent, but sonic isn't going to come up all that often.
• SLAs: at will - comprehend languages, detect chaos, detect evil, detect good, detect law, detect magic, detect thoughts, feather fall, sanctuary, tongues; 3/day - polymorph; the at will are all decent, lowish level utility and detection stuff; 3/day polymorph (or whatever the 3.5 version is) is nice.
• Summon Rilamni: standard outsider summoning schtick, with varying % of success.

Ferrumach

• Medium Outsider (Extraplanar).
• 8 HD (of the equally best kind; full BAB, all good saves, 8 skill points/"level").
• Speed 30 ft.
• +7 natural AC: OKish.
• Fear aura: decent area effect, and you can specifically exclude allies. The usual fear immunities hose the ability, but otherwise, not bad.
• Summon rilmani: 35% chance of 1d2 Ferrumachs. An almost two in three chance to waste your action!
• SLAs (on top of the standard for all Rilmani): at will - blur, command, obscuring mist, see invisibility, silence; 3/day - cure moderate wounds, dispel magic, ice storm, phantom steed. CL 9. All fairly low level stuff, but not bad for utility.
• DR 10/alignment: not bad.
• SR 20: decent, but doesn't scale.
• Str +14, Dex +2, Con +18, Int +4, Wis +2, Cha +10: net +50, bonuses to all abilities, no penalties!
• Skill list is a little all over the place, but not horrible.

Medium humanoid in form, can speak and can clearly wield items and manipulate objects.

Weakest of the Rilmani by quite some distance. Obviously designed to be mounted warriors, but would be nicer if they got the charging feats as bonus feats instead of having to select them. Once you factor in SLAs, abilities score boosts, and general resistances, I'd have to say LA +1 for me. Would probably compare quite favourably to a 9th level Duskblade or similar.

[Efrate]

+2/+1/+1. All punch above weight, and the SLA list on the first one is insane.

[Remuko]

put me down for +1 across the board.

[Thurbane]

Just a question: is there an official word, in any of the 3.0 > 3.5 update booklets, on exactly what Polymorph Self becomes in 3.5? Does it get downgraded to Alter Self? Upgraded to Polymorph? Does it become Alternate Form?

The only two mentions I'm seeing in the booklet I'm looking at is page 6 (Deleted Spells: which seems to imply you just change it to Polymorph), and page 30 (monster entry Avolakia: which says you change it to "supernatural change shape ability, allowing it to assume any humanoid form").

For my table ruling, I'd probably treat it as Polymorph, but you can only target yourself...

[Blue Jay]

Just a question: is there an official word, in any of the 3.0 > 3.5 update booklets, on exactly what Polymorph Self becomes in 3.5? Does it get downgraded to Alter Self? Upgraded to Polymorph? Does it become Alternate Form?

The only two mentions I'm seeing in the booklet I'm looking at is page 6 (Deleted Spells: which seems to imply you just change it to Polymorph), and page 30 (monster entry Avolakia: which says you change it to "supernatural change shape ability, allowing it to assume any humanoid form").

For my table ruling, I'd probably treat it as Polymorph, but you can only target yourself...

It's completely inconsistent. The grimalkin from MM2 is also in the update booklet, but it wouldn't show up in your search, because the ability is called "Polymorph (Su)," not "polymorph self." It was updated to Change Self.

Also, the updates for the PHB monsters were just all over the map:

• dragons had their polymorph self SLAs updated to Alternate Form.
• The couatl had its polymorph self updated to a "polymorph (self only)" SLA.
• The astral deva also had its polymorph self updated to a "polymorph (self only)" SLA.
• The other two angels had shapechange SLAs updated to "polymorph (self only)" SLAs.
• The succubus had its Alternate Form ability updated to a "polymorph (self only)" SLA.
• The aranea and rakshasa had their Alternate Form abilities updated to Change Shape.
• The doppelganger's Alter Self ability became Change Shape.

Asking for a consistent update rule is a lost cause.

[Thurbane]

It's completely inconsistent. The grimalkin from MM2 is also in the update booklet, but it wouldn't show up in your search, because the ability is called "Polymorph (Su)," not "polymorph self." It was updated to Change Self.

Also, the updates for the PHB monsters were just all over the map:

• dragons had their polymorph self SLAs updated to Alternate Form.
• The couatl had its polymorph self updated to a "polymorph (self only)" SLA.
• The astral deva also had its polymorph self updated to a "polymorph (self only)" SLA.
• The other two angels had shapechange SLAs updated to "polymorph (self only)" SLAs.
• The succubus had its Alternate Form ability updated to a "polymorph (self only)" SLA.
• The aranea and rakshasa had their Alternate Form abilities updated to Change Shape.
• The doppelganger's Alter Self ability became Change Shape.

Asking for a consistent update rule is a lost cause.

Thanks for the additional info.

For me, in absence of any specific conversions to the contrary, polymorph (self only) might be the simplest answer.

But table to table, the answer would obviously be "ask your DM".

[Inevitability]

You guys like numbers right? Here's numbers!

Auramach:
+1: 3 votes
+2: 3 votes

Cuprilach:
+1: 5 votes
+2: 1 vote

Ferromach:
+1: 6 votes

Ferromach and cuprilach stay at +1, auramach is a tie and therefore remains at +1 too (or I'm using my tiebreaker vote, however you want to put it). Next (horrifying) monster up soon.

[Inevitability]

Rukanyr

The book helpfully informs us that the above is meant to look like 'an armor-plated, 15-foot-tall, leafless tree'. The resemblance is truly uncanny.

These Large-sized kaorti-made monstrosities have 7 aberration RHD, with an intriguing stat spread. Their strength and constitution are naturally high, their dexterity is moderately penalized, and their wisdom and charisma are abysmal, but their intelligence receives a surprising +4 bonus.

Their chassis is rounded out by fast healing and an impressive array of natural weapons: three bites (with dexterity-damaging poison), six claws, and a stunning slam.

Its special abilities are interesting. Reflexive Sunder has a small chance to damage slashing or piercing weapons that hit it (it's unclear how it interacts with natural weapons, but presumably it deals some damage to their owner), additionally disarming anything it doesn't destroy. Stability grants a massive bonus on strength checks to avoid being pushed, and Sundering Roar is an AoE deafen that targets a single creature (and, sadly, its equipment) for a lot of sonic damage.

The RHD and shape are not great, and the special abilities aren't too relevant, but the stats are pretty nice and those are a lot of natural weapons. +1 LA: it'll probably make for a pretty good totemist or barbarian.

[Efrate]

I think 9 natural attacks some with riders gets a +0. Needs pounce but so does totemist. It doesnt have great build paths but blender is viable. Unarmed sword sage for assassins stance plus more attacks and a level of barbarian turns this into a force. That would more than contribute in a el 9 party, and plus 18d6 to 22d6 damage is pretty good for a while. Needs to hop through some hoops and you wont be able to interact with a lot of npcs, but dungeon crawl style and you do fine.

[Thurbane]

Someone in the wizards development department has a fetish for scorpion-like monstrosities. I swear there another two or three monsters in various books that are almost interchangeable with this one, at least appearance-wise.

Funnily enough this looks like Wayne Reynolds, who's one of my favourite 3E artists.

• Large Aberration, with reach.
• 7 HD of a pretty poor type (medium BAB, one good save, 2 skill points/"level").
• Speed 40 ft, climb 20 ft: not bad.
• +15 natural AC: solid.
• Slam 3d6, 6 claws 1d6 and 3 bites 1d8: hard to argue with 10 attacks on a full attack. Shame that 9 of them are secondary. Still, very nice.
• Poison: 2d6 Dex/2d6 Dex on each of your three bites. Nice.
• Stunning strike: a save or suck on your slam attack. Decent.
• Sundering roar: every 1d4 rounds, area attack that can deafen, and can also include one target to take a small decent amount sonic damage to themselves and their gear. [edit] I misread damage as 2d6 rather than 12d6, which is a lot more respectable [/edit]
• Darkvision 60 ft.: OK.
• Fast healing 5: you know me, always a fan of fast healing.
• Reflexive sunder: combination sunder/disarm vs. slashing or piercing weapons that hit you. The disarm part is nice, the sunder part less so. Combined with your area attack (if you bother using it), you're likely to be losing loot.
• Sonic immunity: niche, but good.
• Stability: like a Dwarf on steroids - cannot be tripped, and +20 vs. bull rush. DM tip: have an uber-tripper PC in the party you want to scare? This is your guy!
• Str +10, Dex -4, Con +14, Int +4, Wis -8, Cha -8: net +8, with penalties to half of your scores. That Wis penalty is nasty: Will saves, Spot, Listen etc. I would suggest a visit to the X stat to Y bonus thread!
• Small racial skill list, and two of those are Wis based! I guess you can sink ranks into Spot and Listen to offset that Wis penalty somewhat. +8 racial bonus on Climb.

Very weird body shape, somewhat doubtful that those claws can wield items or manipulate objects, but on the bright side - they can speak.

So weird body type, 7 sub-par HD, and a couple of really unpleasant ability mods. On the other hand, a truckload of natural attack, 4 of which come with rider effects; and a solid defensive chassis. The area effect is neither here nor there for me: deafened isn't much of a de-buff for most, and 2d6 damage is pretty negligible 12d6 damage is decent, even if it's single target, although you are endangering loot.

You've got some hurdles to get over, but I'd give this a +0 pretty happily. It can certainly stand alongside most 7th 8th level beatstick PCs without dragging the chain.

Vote changed to LA +1.

[danielxcutter]

With that many natural attacks and an Int bonus... would Assassin work, actually?

[No brains]

I think Wayne Reynolds did an admirable job trying to interpret that description and mess of traits in its statblock. It's a perfectly fine hallucination scorpion.

I think I may have to go with -0. -8 to both wis and cha without decent ways to recoup that is too glaring a weakness. If I'm playing one of these and we encounter a creature that drains either stat, I'm going to reconsider whether I've brought the DM enough snacks or too much. I'm also having a hard time imagining how to play this as anything other than what it is.

[Thurbane]

Spoiler

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OK, perhaps not as interchangeable as I remember, but a player could easily be forgiven for getting a Rukanyr, Stonesinger and Quori mixed up.

I guess with the sheer number of 3E monsters, some similarities in appearance were inevitable.

[Blue Jay]

I like how the rukanyr looks like its armor plates are attached to its body by rivets. Overall, I think it's a very interesting-looking (in a horrifying sort of way) monster.

I think the rukanyr is quite good, actually. In my pre-evaluation, I gave it +2 because 10 natural attacks is really potent at 7th level. Looking back now, I don't think I'm going to stand by that, in light of that depressing ability score array. I'm still nervous about giving 10 attacks at ECL 7; I know it won't scale well, and most being secondary attacks is disappointing; but that's still a lot at this level. Because of that, I think I'm going to vote for LA +1 for the rukanyr.

I don't know, though: max 9d6+1d8+(5.5xStr mod) damage per round may not really be all that gamebreaking. And that Wisdom penalty really is harsh. Even if your DM isn't purposely being merciless about it, that could really hurt you. I'll stick with +1 for now, but I'm not sure my resolve is strong enough to hold out.

On the topic of destroying weapons... I haven't really played in a lot of games where loot was severely limited, so the arguments about destroying loot don't resonate much with me. I can see why they would, though. Also, do y'all think that +5 on the Reflexive Sunder damage is from its Str score? And why is the Ref DC 11? My guess is that it's a Dex-based save, so 10 + 3 (HD/2) - 2 (Dex) = 11. If so, that would mean that the rukanyr has save DCs calculated from all three of its physical ability scores.

[danielxcutter]

What specifically would that Wisdom penalty hurt and how could you get around that?

[Thurbane]

What specifically would that Wisdom penalty hurt and how could you get around that?

The main one that stands out is Will saves. You'd likely need to invest in Steadfast Determination or something similar, or get immunity to mind affecting (and even then, things like Glitterdust are going to hurt). There's a lot of Will save based save-or-lose effects out there.

Also, several perception skills (Spot, Listen, Sense Motive) as well. People are likely to be Bluffing you. A lot.

I mean, its not insurmountable, but Wis is one of the ability scores that I most dislike having a penalty to (up there with Con, unless you're an undead or construct).

[danielxcutter]

The main one that stands out is Will saves. You'd likely need to invest in Steadfast Determination or something similar, or get immunity to mind affecting (and even then, things like Glitterdust are going to hurt). There's a lot of Will save based save-or-lose effects out there.

Also, several perception skills (Spot, Listen, Sense Motive) as well. People are likely to be Bluffing you. A lot.

I mean, its not insurmountable, but Wis is one of the ability scores that I most dislike having a penalty to (up there with Con, unless you're an undead or construct).

I don’t think you’re going to be the most insightful party member anyways, but yeah I figured the Will save thing would hurt. Steadfast Determination does eat up two feats, though considering that Con modifier I might have considered it even then.

Edit: Also Aberration HD have good Will saves so that at least helps a bit.

[Efrate]

Large horror scorpion comes up and asks you in immaculate common about something, who is going to have the guts to try to bluff it. It can obviously be an intelligent speaker with +4 int, just kind of oblivious and more razor focused. Yeah it's bad with people look at it. But if it come up and asks you something, are you going to lie to it? I would be terrified as random npc and be sure to give it as much aid as I can so it doesnt decide to turn me into a fine paste.

Plus isnt there a penalty for bluffing non humanoids or is it just different language?

Stat drain is a concern but this isnt a face unless you go with the strength to intimidate route (feat in Savage species?) . Would you lie to it? I sure as heck wouldnt.

Edit: their roar is 12d6 sonic DC 20 half for their chosen target. 60 ft. range is not great but it's a viable ranged attack that is near unresistable. Might deafen your party but deals with pesky fliers fwiw.

[danielxcutter]

Large horror scorpion comes up and asks you in immaculate common about something, who is going to have the guts to try to bluff it. It can obviously be an intelligent speaker with +4 int, just kind of oblivious and more razor focused. Yeah it's bad with people look at it. But if it come up and asks you something, are you going to lie to it? I would be terrified as random npc and be sure to give it as much aid as I can so it doesnt decide to turn me into a fine paste.

Anything that’s going to spend more than two rounds interacting one in intelligent conversation might very well. Not everyone you meet it going to be a 1st-level Commoner.

Plus isnt there a penalty for bluffing non humanoids or is it just different language?

Don’t remember hearing of that. Source?

Stat drain is a concern but this isnt a face unless you go with the strength to intimidate route (feat in Savage species?). Would you lie to it? I sure as heck wouldnt.

If I thought I could get away with it, and I had to. Besides the DM controls the NPCs, and anyone who would lie to a high-level PC who could vaporize them with a thought would probably do so to one of these. If anything they might be even more likely because they think you’re a dumb beast.

Edit: their roar is 12d6 sonic DC 20 half for their chosen target. 60 ft. range is not great but it's a viable ranged attack that is near unresistable. Might deafen your party but deals with pesky fliers fwiw.

Fliers are dealt with flight, not a half-assed quasi-breath weapon. And it targets gear as well. Remind me why people don’t use Disjunction again, will you?

[Unavenger]

Feinting is -4 for nonhumanoids and -8 for animal intelligence (which is written in the bluff skill itself) but otherwise bluff has no penalty for type.

[danielxcutter]

Feinting is -4 for nonhumanoids and -8 for animal intelligence (which is written in the bluff skill itself) but otherwise bluff has no penalty for type.

And feinting sucks so... yeah.

Hey, does that mean feinting doesn’t work properly on Elans and outsiders?

[Unavenger]

And feinting sucks so... yeah.

Hey, does that mean feinting doesn’t work properly on Elans and outsiders?

Well, if you don't have a way to build around it (free or swift action feints on a rogue are pretty good I'd say), sure.

It gets a small penalty, yes, which is not quite "Not working properly".

[Random Sanity]

It'd like to see the conversation amongst the deities surrounding that thing's creation. "We didn't have enough parts on hand to build a proper scorpion monster, so we filled in the rest with bits from the 'odds and ends' bin. Think the mortals will notice?"

[danielxcutter]

Well, if you don't have a way to build around it (free or swift action feints on a rogue are pretty good I'd say), sure.

It gets a small penalty, yes, which is not quite "Not working properly".

Isn’t the only real way an Assassin spell? I dunno, could be wrong.

It'd like to see the conversation amongst the deities surrounding that thing's creation. "We didn't have enough parts on hand to build a proper scorpion monster, so we filled in the rest with bits from the 'odds and ends' bin. Think the mortals will notice?"

Hardly think the Kaorti are anywhere close to that.

[TotallyNotEvil]

I think this is a highly problematic monster that's going to power spike hard with a level or two. Start adding riders to those 10 natural attacks and it will get very silly, very fast.

While most of the attacks are secondary, it's easy to remedy most of the penalty with a feat, and your +10 STR goes a long way top remedy the damage penalty. Overall, I think you are actually ahead of a traditional martial, it's simply too many attacks, many with powerful rider effects. +15 NA doesn't hurt, either. This fellow has 7 HD.

Let me point out that, before adding the point buy that will rocket the relevant stats up and good feats, this creature is CR 9.

Its spammable attack is actually pretty good: 12d6 sonic damage, with a fairly hard DC 20 save for half. That's going to be very reliable, and useful at breaking down stuff.

Climb speed is also a neat gimmick, for a bruiser without SLAs, aka compared to most Martials.

Overall, I'd buck the trend give this +1 LA. You deal a lot of damage, pretty reliably as the penalty for your nine extra attacks can be a measly -2 with Multiattack. The moment you get something like Assassin's Stance and Pounce, you become an unholy blender.

Your sonic attack might be single target, but hits like an Empowered damage-dealing spell and has plenty of use in getting through physical obstacles. AoE deafen might **** up casters, too. Climb and being strong as hell give another out for utility. And in combat, you just blend stuff.

Lets assume you have an Amulet of Mighty Fists +1 and a Bangle of STR +2. With a starting 14 from point buy, that's a +8 STR mod. So, from Strenght and enhancement bonus, that's 54 damage by itself. Plus 9d6+3d8, which is 45. The average HP for CR 7-8 monsters is 87-96, and with virtually no effort your full attack can hit for almost 100 damage. No Pouncing Shocktrooper here, just a standard full attack and nothing else. Add a level of Rogue and that's +10d6 of fun.

I figure waiting for that first level to be on 9th at least gives others an extra feat and more SA/maneuvers/spells.

[Falontani]

In an evil party put 2 points of wisdom in, grab willing deformity and deformity madness for immunity to mind affecting. And you can take reflexive psychosis for dr 5/- as an immediate action and one more feat.

[Temotei]

Put me down for +1 LA. These things seem like prime totemist material.

[Thurbane]

Edit: their roar is 12d6 sonic DC 20 half for their chosen target. 60 ft. range is not great but it's a viable ranged attack that is near unresistable. Might deafen your party but deals with pesky fliers fwiw.

Oops, misread that...I was looking at the 2d6 rounds deafened. It's a better attack than I thought it was!

[Inevitability]

LA updated to +1, next monster to be posted soon.

[Inevitability]

Sarkrith

Generic design, generic motivations, excessive spikes.

Sarkrith come in two forms, which have little in common except for the ability to sniff out Scents and mask their own. Yeah, that'll be useful at mid-to-high levels.

Spelleater

Large-sized monstrous humanoids with 15 RHD. Thing is, other than some reasonable stats (+16 strength and +18 constitution aren't bad but you expect more at those levels), some SR, and the ability to spam Greater Dispel Magic rays, these guys have basically nothing worth mentioning. Their SR lets them heal tiny amounts of HP whenever it blocks something, does that make up for fifteen levels of lost class features?

-0 LA.

Thane

'Only' 11 RHD, with basically the same stats. Interestingly, the thane has much more interesting special abilities than its supposed leader.

Every time a thane gets hit by energy damage, it gets resist 10 to that type for a day (not bad, and exploitable with a couple cantrips). They also treat all damage dealt by bludgeoning weapons as nonlethal, which sounds kind of lame but seems like it'd massively help out with healing after combat (something like a claw/bite combo would mix lethal and nonlethal damage, with both getting healed at the same time).

Furthermore, a number of times per day equal to its constitution bonus, but no more than once per round, it can take an extra move or standard action. Screwing with the action economy is good, and with the giant constitution boost you might just be able to pull this every single combat round.

Finally, once per day a thane can create a small antimagic field, as a free action, which lasts for several rounds. Again, being able to no-sell the nastiest spell you (or a nearby ally) get hit with once per day is extremely useful.

I like the thane a lot more than I expected, and while it's still an 11 RHD bruiser it's one with sufficient tricks that I'm more than comfortable assigning +0 (perhaps +1?) here.