The LA-assignment thread VIII: Way Too Much For Vampirism

[liquidformat]

this might be just passable as a +1 LA with no RHD or 2 RHD at 3 it is just garbage, easy -0.

[Thurbane]

To be honest, I think I'd just play a Human Were Sea Otter and be done with it. Yeah, your ECL is 1 higher, but you have a lot more to show for it.

[Dalmosh]

I have a Selkie PC in my current campaign, and it took a lot of tinkering to get it to where I needed.

I too figured it was -0, and instead applied a homebrew LA +0 race to a PC class level and went from there.
When the player wanted to continue advancing as Selkie, I tacked on all the ability score mods and benefits that the seal from Frostburn has over the selkie's seal form, and then bumped on the extra AC and speed that the FF Selkie has in two very low tier monster class levels to take it back to 3 HD.

In the aquatic aspects of my campaign, which is set in predominantly coastal, nautical and undersea settings, the seal form is very good at low levels due to the REALLY fast swim speed (90ft).
You can apply the run action to swim checks, so being able to move 360 ft in a round is pretty useful, which in an aquatic setting is more like low-level very fast flight.
That's just about double what a merfolk can do, and faster than a MM porpoise or a jetting giant squid.
She's rubbish at melee, but very hard to pin down, and can at least attack from range quite strategically.

[Inevitability]

Senmurv

I believe SMSWPTM referred to this as a 'furry gay pride mascot'.

Anyway, the senmurv is a fairly typical low-level bruiser monster. It's got Large size, magical beast RHD, good stats (+12 strength, +8 constitution, +6 to +2 in most other abilities), a good fly speed, and of course powerful bite/claw/claw attacks that stack with Rend for additional damage.

On the less physical side, senmurvs have Scent (not entirely useless), the ability to Smite Evil once per day (it scales with RHD but is otherwise unremarkable), and the ability to cast Detect Good and Detect Evil at-will (actually kinda handy).

The lack of hands is annoying (but can be partially overcome by mouthpick weapons), but the melee stats are very good and the Detect spells allow for some spammable utility outside of combat. +2 LA.

[Efrate]

3 magical beast HD are not the worst. The smite is listed as scaling with HD so it might count class levels? Also despite being humanoid they are called out as being mounts so that has potential for a PC. I think a plus 1 is workable here, flight is really good early.

[Unavenger]

[CENTER]Senmurv

I believe SMSWPTM referred to this as a 'furry gay pride mascot'.

Image is broken - and what's SMSWPTM?

[DeTess]

Image is broken - and what's SMSWPTM?

I'm not having any problem with seeing the image.

[Caelestion]

That's the rainbow-winged wolf, no?

(I don't see the image either.)

[Rockphed]

Senmurv

Your image is forbidden. Google doesn't want to show it to us.

[Batcathat]

Whether the image is visable or not seems to depend on your browser, I can see it with Firefox but not Chrome. (Yes, the Google-hosted image doesn't show up in their own browser).

EDIT: Except now I suddenly don't see it with Firefox either, so I might be completely wrong about the above.

[ZamielVanWeber]

I could see it with Chrome and now it has vanished for me as well.

Anyways: 3 solid RHD, good stats, solid sensory suite, large (tall) and a decent NA suite, gives me an overall +1. The 1/day smite is meaningless unless they go into Fist of Raziel or paladin at the very least and "no hands" (and those losing a pile of slots) stinks (although an argument might be able to my made for rings based on the picture).

Fun fact: senmurv is a old and poor transliteration of "simurgh" and the senmurv here is a not-terrible representation of some descriptions of it.

Edit: and it is back. This image is trapped in superposition I swear.

[RedWarlock]

No problem seeing it here.

Edit- NOW it's not showing. Weird.

[Lilapop]

If the image link was generated as a search result, it might not have been intended to be persistent.

Full attack entry isnt bite/claw/claw, its EITHER bite OR claw/claw. The fighting style description might not really be a rules thing, but the intent seems to be that the claws+rend are used for Fly-By, and the bite is used on the ground.

[danielxcutter]

Image is broken - and what's SMSWPTM?

Same here for both points.

[Batcathat]

For those who can't see the image, I just googled "rainbow wolf eagle" and got the same image as a first hit. It's certainly a... unique look.

[Thurbane]

An hilariously ridiculous looking creature, somewhat based on actual myth.

• Large Magical Beast (with reach)
• 3 RHD (full BAB, 2 good saves, 2 skill points/"level")
• 30 ft speed, fly 60 ft (average): flight is always nice.
• +2 natural AC: disappointing, but I guess its inline with a regular wolf.
• Bite 1d8, 2 claws 1d6: can't use bite and claws in same attack routine through, if I'm reading correctly. Frustrating. Would 2 claws plus mouthpick weapon work?
• Rend 2d6: decent.
• Smite evil 1/day: not terrible. May qualify you for some stuff without needing Paladin levels maybe?
• SLAs: at will detect good and detect evil. Handy.
• Darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision, scent: decent senses.
• Str +12, Dex +6, Con +8, Int -2, Wis +2, Cha +6: net +32, small hit to Int. Very respectable at 3 RHD, IMHO.
• Small-ish but decent racial skill list.

Non-standard body shape, and no manipulative digits to mention. They can speak.

If you can get past the no-hands thing, this is a decent chassis. Definite martial adept potential. I'm agreeing with LA +1 for now.

[liquidformat]

I'm ok with +1 based on what I am seeing. My one complaint is how a medium sized character actually rides a Senmurv...

[danielxcutter]

Bracers still work on wings right?

[ZamielVanWeber]

I sincerely doubt it, just knowing the structure of a wing.

Also thanks to Thurbane for the detailed breakdown. It will make LAing custom anthro animals easier. The senmurv compares surprisingly directly to quite a few.

[Caelestion]

They can wear bracers on their shins instead.

[ZamielVanWeber]

That would be in the realm of DM adjudication since greaves go on shins and bracers on arms and a shine an arm are not shaped the same way.

[Luccan]

I'm trying to imagine how this thing looks in any position that is not the the picture (wings folded, actually flying, etc.)

[Thurbane]

Just a shameless self plug, in relation to body slots: Magic Item Slots For Various Creatures

Elder Evils has an example of (modified) bracers being able to be worn on a tail, FWIW.

Savage Species also suggests that a creature such as a a wolf could wear a magical ring in its ear.

I'm trying to imagine how this thing looks in any position that is not the the picture (wings folded, actually flying, etc.)

Here's a couple of other artists impressions of the same or similar beings:

[ZamielVanWeber]

I just remembered Shasta was put by this thread at +1 and there is no way it can compare to senmurv, with literally half the BST, no flight, no SLAs. Either khaasta is not +1 or senmurv must be +2.

[Thurbane]

I just remembered Shasta was put by this thread at +1 and there is no way it can compare to senmurv, with literally half the BST, no flight, no SLAs. Either khaasta is not +1 or senmurv must be +2.

While I don't necessarily disagree with you outright, having no hands is a pretty significant hurdle for a PC.

[ZamielVanWeber]

There is a magic item in Savage Species that gives hands and arms*. Put me down for +2 for the senmurv.

Arms of the naga.

[TotallyNotEvil]

When you consider 3 full BAB HD with two good saves, Large with Reach, Str +12, Dex +6, Con +8, Int -2, Wis +2, Cha +6 and Fly speed and some natural attacks, it's definitely going to be over +0.

In a humanoid chassis, I'd say +2. On a giant wolf with wings in place of forelegs, I might be swayed either way.

Mechanically, you could do a fine Unarmed build to take advantage of your natural attacks and very high Strenght.

On low levels, all your natural advantages are pretty overwhelming. On the higher end, does the additional hassle with getting magic items bring this down to +1?

I'm not sure. I can see this wearing an amulet, nearly anything in the Head slots, belt, anklets. I'm not sure if Rings would normally fit on your bird talons or not, and armor and cape are going to be custom. But on an unarmed build, the weapon is going to be on an amulet anyway, so that's not so big a loss.

Thinking about it, I believe +2 is the better call here. For most of the early and mid game, the sheer ability score bonuses and the utility of a Large and incredibly strong flier on the party can't be underestimated. At late game, you have some issues with getting all your trinkets squared away, but you also have powerful friends to help with that.

@edit: Let's say you have a 32 or buy of 16/14/16/10/10/10, so you final scores are STR 28 DEX 20 CON 24 INT 8 WIS 12 CHA 16.

You have an HP of (21 + CON*3) = 42.

You have an AC of (10 -1 size + 2 NA + 5 DEX) = 16.

Your Claws hit at +11/+11 (1d6+9). Rend for 2d6+9 if you hit with both.

Your saves are Fort +10 Ref +8 Will +2.

Let's see, a fifth level barbarian with the same point buy would have (38+CON*5) = 51 HP. A fifth level Fighter would have (32+CON*5) = 47 HP. At fourth, that becomes about 42 and 38, rounding up.

Barb has an AC of (10+2 DEX + 5 armor) = 17.

Barb in Rage hits with Greatsword at +10 (2d6+7).

So, actually looking into it, it's like a forth level barbarian traded a level for becoming Large, gaining Reach and learning to Fly at 60 ft, plus Scent and the other small stuff like Detect Good and Evil. Rend is a not inconsiderable source of damage, too.

Would I take 1 point of LA at level 4 to gain those abilities? Absolutely.

So I believe I will indeed go with +2 LA. Hit actually harder than a raging barbarian of your level (especially if you Rend), before even considering Reach, Fly speed, Scent and the minor SLAs, at the cost of some inconvenience wearing armor and having lower HP.

A bunch of stuff runs on CHA as well, so that fat +6 to it can probably be well leveraged with quite a few classes.

[Temotei]

I think lack of hands isn't that big of a deal as long as someone in the party has hands and you're not the trapmonkey, honestly. It's kind of annoying sometimes, I imagine, but you can presumably just use your mouth for a mouthful of activities, and the ones you can't (UMD scrolls, wands, etc.), you can find other ways to make work or you just don't care about making them work in the first place.

Put me down for LA +2 for now.

[Thurbane]

There is a magic item in Savage Species that gives hands and arms*. Put me down for +2 for the senmurv.

Arms of the naga.

At 56,000gp, that's going to be most of your WBL up until ECL 10. Even Gloves of Man are 42,000gp, and I don't think they'd work with wings.

I think lack of hands isn't that big of a deal as long as someone in the party has hands and you're not the trapmonkey, honestly. It's kind of annoying sometimes, I imagine, but you can presumably just use your mouth for a mouthful of activities, and the ones you can't (UMD scrolls, wands, etc.), you can find other ways to make work or you just don't care about making them work in the first place.

Put me down for LA +2 for now.

The problem for me, is it's all going to be pretty table/DM reliant on what you can and can't do item-wise with no hands.

You could invest in 5 levels of Druid and take the Fang Shields sub-level (assuming the DM would let your alula/coverts count, rather than your talons), but at that point your'e devoting a lot of levels to getting around the limitation.

People have made good arguments for +2, but I'm staying with +1, I think.

[Sutr]

+2 but I allow disneyfying intelligent animals in my campaigns.