The LA-assignment thread VIII: Way Too Much For Vampirism

[Caelestion]

I agree with Totally - it should be LA +2.

[Blue Jay]

I think LA +2 is good for the senmurv: big physical stats, full BAB and 2 good saves, and an early Fly speed. It's better than the khaasta, but I think they're both on the low end of the ECL I voted for. This one might be okay as a high +1, but I think it's enough better than the khaasta to get +2.

[liquidformat]

When you consider 3 full BAB HD with two good saves, Large with Reach, Str +12, Dex +6, Con +8, Int -2, Wis +2, Cha +6 and Fly speed and some natural attacks, it's definitely going to be over +0.

In a humanoid chassis, I'd say +2. On a giant wolf with wings in place of forelegs, I might be swayed either way.

Mechanically, you could do a fine Unarmed build to take advantage of your natural attacks and very high Strenght.

On low levels, all your natural advantages are pretty overwhelming. On the higher end, does the additional hassle with getting magic items bring this down to +1?

I'm not sure. I can see this wearing an amulet, nearly anything in the Head slots, belt, anklets. I'm not sure if Rings would normally fit on your bird talons or not, and armor and cape are going to be custom. But on an unarmed build, the weapon is going to be on an amulet anyway, so that's not so big a loss.

Thinking about it, I believe +2 is the better call here. For most of the early and mid game, the sheer ability score bonuses and the utility of a Large and incredibly strong flier on the party can't be underestimated. At late game, you have some issues with getting all your trinkets squared away, but you also have powerful friends to help with that.

@edit: Let's say you have a 32 or buy of 16/14/16/10/10/10, so you final scores are STR 28 DEX 20 CON 24 INT 8 WIS 12 CHA 16.

You have an HP of (21 + CON*3) = 42.

You have an AC of (10 -1 size + 2 NA + 5 DEX) = 16.

Your Claws hit at +11/+11 (1d6+9). Rend for 2d6+9 if you hit with both.

Your saves are Fort +10 Ref +8 Will +2.

Let's see, a fifth level barbarian with the same point buy would have (38+CON*5) = 51 HP. A fifth level Fighter would have (32+CON*5) = 47 HP. At fourth, that becomes about 42 and 38, rounding up.

Barb has an AC of (10+2 DEX + 5 armor) = 17.

Barb in Rage hits with Greatsword at +10 (2d6+7).

So, actually looking into it, it's like a forth level barbarian traded a level for becoming Large, gaining Reach and learning to Fly at 60 ft, plus Scent and the other small stuff like Detect Good and Evil. Rend is a not inconsiderable source of damage, too.

Would I take 1 point of LA at level 4 to gain those abilities? Absolutely.

So I believe I will indeed go with +2 LA. Hit actually harder than a raging barbarian of your level (especially if you Rend), before even considering Reach, Fly speed, Scent and the minor SLAs, at the cost of some inconvenience wearing armor and having lower HP.

A bunch of stuff runs on CHA as well, so that fat +6 to it can probably be well leveraged with quite a few classes.

One random point though it isn't RAW, RAI I think this is supposed to be one of those tall flying monsters where you can only use your claws while flying/jumping, at the very least that is how I would adjudicate it in my games.

On another side note if we compare getting flight to getting hands, getting hands is, forgive the pun, hands down much harder and more expensive. I can get something like winged boots for 16000 where as getting hands is typically 40000+. Also it is relatively easy to get flight in the range of 5-6 level range.

Anyways beyond that I think if we compare this to an Ogre which has 4 worse RHD (giant) and worse stat spread but got a +1. Granted ogres do have hands and all item slots so you don't have to sit down with your DM and evaluate what item slots you do and don't have which is an issue for the senmurv.

At level 4-6 range I agree with you that senmurv seems to be a +2 LA. However, by level 7-9 polymorph comes online for most builds, wild shape based builds start having a lot of power/versatility and things like primeval, bear warrior, and were touched master are in play. So lets say 8th level the stat bonuses, flight, scent, and tiny selection of SLAs is pretty much par of the course compared to what I can have for a standard race Tier 3 build. By 10th level and on I question if this thing is even a +1 LA given how little its stat bonuses and other knickknacks mean at that point.

Over all given the fact that our decisions are made ignoring LA buy-off I think at +1 in conjunction with the issues of Senmurv it is fine.

[Remuko]

i think anymore than +1 is way too much for the wolfbird. +1 seems like more than enough.

[Dimers]

I'm on the +1/+2 divide too. I'll go with LA +2; there are just too many leverageable things about it to leave at +1.

[danielxcutter]

I have a feeling that some people are rather overselling this, and this might be partly the same reason why some LAs are cripplingly high.

Of course, I would imagine most if not all the voters at least aren’t trying to kneecap the very concept of monstrous PCs from the get go, so it’s better than that.

[ZamielVanWeber]

I have a feeling that some people are rather overselling this, and this might be partly the same reason why some LAs are cripplingly high.

Of course, I would imagine most if not all the voters at least aren’t trying to kneecap the very concept of monstrous PCs from the get go, so it’s better than that.

Passive aggressively insulting everyone who does not agree with your vote? That is a good way to ensure that this thread does not remain neutral and the process fair.

The senmurv walks off with massive bonuses on strong HD (Emperor Tippy is correct: people badly undervalue most monster HD. Magical beast hit dice are better than most of the hit dice a PC could ever get) in return for one notable deficit. Sure, something like Arms of the Naga is incredibly expensive, but +32 in stats alone is the equivalent of well over a million GP. And then get other goodies, so you will figure it out, if nothing else you will not need the piddly items the game drags you down with and will rocket ahead later on when your loss of 56000 vs their loss of an entire item suite and its slots.

Senmurv is not the height of power, no, but it offers incredible advantages and even at ECL 5 would be an amazing choice for any DM that allowed it.

[ExLibrisMortis]

[...] +32 in stats alone is the equivalent of well over a million GP. [...]

A belt of magnificence costs 200 000 gp and gives +36 total to ability scores. One casting of polymorph any object gives you senmurv stats (assuming you spend most of your PB on mental stats, of course), cost circa 1500 gp. One casting of Persistent draconic polymorph a day gives you senmurv stats, but better, cost circa "free".

Not that the senmurv isn't a strong race, or that the above comparisons should influence the LA of a 3 HD beatstick, but this gp-equivalent comparison is something to avoid, especially if you're going to be so hyperbolic about the cost.

If I had to play a senmurv, I think I'd go for barbarian 1-2/crusader 1-2/champion of Gwynharwyf X. It'd probably be pretty effective, but LA +2 would become really annoying later on, when you're behind equivalent human builds and missing out on good class features (Divine Grace, spellcasting, maneuvers, even just PA returns/rage advancement, everything is late). Typical LA buyoff material, but since we're not doing that, I'll go with LA +2, rating it primarily (only) as beatstick in the ECL 5-10 range.

Also, I hate the picture. Thurbane's alternatives are much better.

[danielxcutter]

Passive aggressively insulting everyone who does not agree with your vote? That is a good way to ensure that this thread does not remain neutral and the process fair.

The senmurv walks off with massive bonuses on strong HD (Emperor Tippy is correct: people badly undervalue most monster HD. Magical beast hit dice are better than most of the hit dice a PC could ever get) in return for one notable deficit. Sure, something like Arms of the Naga is incredibly expensive, but +32 in stats alone is the equivalent of well over a million GP. And then get other goodies, so you will figure it out, if nothing else you will not need the piddly items the game drags you down with and will rocket ahead later on when your loss of 56000 vs their loss of an entire item suite and its slots.

Senmurv is not the height of power, no, but it offers incredible advantages and even at ECL 5 would be an amazing choice for any DM that allowed it.

I wasn’t trying to insult anyone(except whoever assigned some of the official LAs; seriously why do bugbears need LA?), and I guess monster HD aren’t that bad, but fine, I’ll shut up.

[ZamielVanWeber]

A belt of magnificence costs 200 000 gp and gives +36 total to ability scores. One casting of polymorph any object gives you senmurv stats (assuming you spend most of your PB on mental stats, of course), cost circa 1500 gp. One casting of Persistent draconic polymorph a day gives you senmurv stats, but better, cost circa "free".

The belt would be slotless and thus 400 000 and then you would need to adjust from the worst bonus in the game (enhancement) to one of the best due to its rarity: racial.

Polymorph family has it's own issues of poor design, but fair. I agree that avoiding the cash value is good practices, but it has been brought up several times by others the senmurv's valuable abilities are cheap and easy to get your hands on and arms are too expensive, so that door was already opened.

[TotallyNotEvil]

I just feel rather uneasy giving +1 LA, on something with rather decent and few RHD and flight and large size with reach, to something that can let a player start at level 4 with STR 30.

As levels go up, you can worry far less with keeping yourself updated in the numbers game.

It isn't the crazy nightmare scorpion with ten natural attacks, but this too should get quite a bit better with just a few levels to leverage those stats.

At highe levels, if the form is truly so incovenient, Alter Self lets you keep your massive ability scores in a, heh, handier form. It's a low level PHB spell, shouldn't be hard to get some form of it.

Not that I think you really need it to keep relevant in melee, even excepting a mouthpick weapon.

Still, while I think a +1 would be too strong in the ever popular single-digit level range, it's not inappropriate ar the higher end. Even if I still will keep to +2, it's not the worst rating.

[lord_khaine]

Absolutely at least LA +2
Those stat bonuses are crazy. And then its also getting flight and large size.

[Inevitability]

Image is broken - and what's SMSWPTM?

Image fixed, also Stupid Monsters Someone Was Paid To Make (the name shows up in the tab title but doesn't seem to be on the page itself).

Anyway:

+1: 4 votes
+2: 9 votes

Overwhelming majority for +2, LA will be updated. Kind of behind on actual monster updates, expect something tomorrow.

[Inevitability]

Shadar-Kai

Mostly remember those as an obscure 4th edition race, to be honest.

Medium-sized fey with 3 RHD, a sizable dexterity boost but a charisma penalty (no change to other stats), and a couple of interesting abilities. 1d6 sneak attack is pretty cool, and so is Hide In Plain Sight (especially with a +10 Hide bonus outside of daylight). Superior Low-Light Vision does its low-light viewing thing, and free proficiency with spiked chains is probably good for a couple niche builds.

Because being dark and mysterious involves being cursed in some way, Shadar-Kai suffer from their Shadow Curse, which has a chance to inflict negative levels every time they become stunned, dazed, staggered, or knocked unconscious. These levels disappear upon travelling to the Plane of Shadow, but return unless you receive a Greater Restoration before leaving: not very practical for most low-level parties.

Are Shadar-Kai good? The obvious rogue comparison is one level ahead on sneak attack and BAB progression, has Uncanny Dodge, and doesn't suffer a Shadow Curse (in addition to regular racial benefits), but is much worse at hiding, has worse dexterity, and can't use spiked chains. Honestly, that's not a comparison that makes me worry for the rogue's job security, so I'll go ahead and assign +0 LA here.

(Maybe this needs an asterisk for the Shadow Curse? It doesn't make the character outright unplayable, and it's easy to work around at higher levels, so for now I have not included one)

[danielxcutter]

A DM who smashes the “screw this PC” button hard and often is not exactly a good one, so I don’t think an asterisk is quite needed.

Also Swordsage FTW.

[Efrate]

+0. It's okay but not great. HIPS is really good and it gets it early.

[Rockphed]

I think the curse is more likely to come up by accident when you get reduced to or below 0 hit points than anything else. How does gaining a negative level interact with having damage? I don't think it is bad enough to warrant an asterisk, but it definitely needs discussion with your DM.

That said, I don't see any reason for Shadar-Kai to need a positive level adjustment. Would I trade a level of rogue for hide in plain sight and a +10 bonus to hide anywhere that isn't daylight? Sure. Would I feel like I was losing out by not taking Shadar-Kai as a 3rd level rogue? Not really. Spiked chains are finessable, so that high dex can go straight to attack bonus. I'm not sure what 3rd edition's rules are for the interaction of hiding and attacking, but these guys seems really well suited for skulking around the battlefield and occasionally striking with their chain, just not during the day.

For the record, I'm not voting on this one yet.

[ExLibrisMortis]

I think the curse is more likely to come up by accident when you get reduced to or below 0 hit points than anything else. How does gaining a negative level interact with having damage?

You lose 5 hp as part of taking a negative level. So a shadar-kai effectively dies at -5 instead of -10, unless they have Diehard.

I think LA -0 is appropriate. These guys are worse than a straight rogue, which is already a pretty low-tier balance point--in tier 3, shadar-kai are outclassed by everything. If you really need that shadowy edge, take the dark template or wear a collar of umbral metamorphosis.

[No brains]

Just to be clear, does the negative level apply when they fall asleep?

[Morphic tide]

+6 Dex, Bonus Feat proficiency in Spike Chains, 1d6 Sneak Attack, Hide in Plain Sight, and then for downside you have 2/level less skill points than a pure Rogue on the RHD to lose a total of 12, lose a level's worth of Sneak Attack and BAB, get -2 Cha, and on fairly rare and likely multi-save dependent occasions will eat a Negative Level, generally making it suck worse when you're normally going to be brutalized to begin with.

The biggest thing to note about large, focused, ability score advantages is that they're best used not as their own bonus, but to chop off the top of your build investment for a small bonus to shore up weak areas by going wide, mostly with regard to point-buy. A regular Human Rogue in point-buy would need to spend 10 points to get 16 Dex, while a Shadar-kai can get 18 for 4, allowing them to get back to as high as 14 Cha for 2 points and spend the remaining 4 on 16 Int where the Human has 14, making up half the Skill Point disadvantage and getting an extra +1 to Intelligence skills, alongside +1 to Dexterity skills and Reflex saves.

If wishing to double down, a Shadar-kai can still point-buy 15 Dex for 8 points, use the 4th-level ASI to bring that to 16, then have 22 Dex and wear straight Leather Armor for 0 ACP, for +4 Dex over the desperate pursuit of 18 and saving 8 in point-buy on that while getting either no ACP or +2 AC over a Human Rogue, also letting them take a dumped 8 to a quite invested 15. This means having +4 to Hide and Move Silently over a Chain Shirt wearing Rogue, with Hide in Plain Sight to leverage it, and an entire extra ability score in usable shape.

[Random Sanity]

This is another one of those "works until it slams into its kryptonite" options. Its abilities stack up decently against a rogue, until you run into literally anything that causes suboptimal consciousness - including damage comparable to your hp pool, which isn't going to be huge as a rogue-analog. Either the DM writes encounters around not screwing you, or you're living on borrowed time from the moment you fill out your character sheet.

[Rockphed]

The biggest thing to note about large, focused, ability score advantages is that they're best used not as their own bonus, but to chop off the top of your build investment for a small bonus to shore up weak areas by going wide, mostly with regard to point-buy. A regular Human Rogue in point-buy would need to spend 10 points to get 16 Dex, while a Shadar-kai can get 18 for 4, allowing them to get back to as high as 14 Cha for 2 points and spend the remaining 4 on 16 Int where the Human has 14, making up half the Skill Point disadvantage and getting an extra +1 to Intelligence skills, alongside +1 to Dexterity skills and Reflex saves.

While I am sure this is sound analysis, having a 16 Int vs the Human's 14 just means that you get as many extra skill points as the human (since humans get an extra 1 from being human).

Also, assuming 10 strength, con, and wis, that is 6 points. Getting 18 dex 14 cha for the Shadarkai takes 14 points. Getting 16 int takes another 10 for 30 total. For the human 16,14,14 takes 22, leaving the human with 2 more points to throw somewhere. I might be misunderstanding how point-buy works since I haven't used it in forever.

[Morphic tide]

This is another one of those "works until it slams into its kryptonite" options. Its abilities stack up decently against a rogue, until you run into literally anything that causes suboptimal consciousness - including damage comparable to your hp pool, which isn't going to be huge as a rogue-analog. Either the DM writes encounters around not screwing you, or you're living on borrowed time from the moment you fill out your character sheet.

For maximum HP, this is effectively increased because of the incredible nonsense one can get up to with Hide in Plain Sight making it extremely more difficult for them to take damage in virtually any condition but "fight in broad daylight". And the stuff I mentioned with taking off the top +2 of your bonus to instead make something else big, though such is primarily for point-buy.

---

With regards to higher tiers, there's the eternally present matter of Incarnum and Tome of Battle, which have fairly limited penalties for losing class levels and both have Dexterity-based characters to whom the above-mentioned shenanigans apply. The full +6 Dex can very well excuse three levels of Totemist or Swordsage, and +4 will generally break even or come out slightly ahead for blunt bonuses, which, as pointed out above, can mean quite a punch of widening the character, such as enabling Dex/Wis/Int to be a Swordsage properly substituting a Rogue in most capacities while also being a good save-based Swordsage, and the strong Will save and Wisdom scaling neatly counteracts the big downside source's mere DC 15 Will save.

Edit:

While I am sure this is sound analysis, having a 16 Int vs the Human's 14 just means that you get as many extra skill points as the human (since humans get an extra 1 from being human).

Also, assuming 10 strength, con, and wis, that is 6 points. Getting 18 dex 14 cha for the Shadarkai takes 14 points. Getting 16 int takes another 10 for 30 total. For the human 16,14,14 takes 22, leaving the human with 2 more points to throw somewhere. I might be misunderstanding how point-buy works since I haven't used it in forever.

...forgot the extra skill point/level for being Human. At least they're equal on feats for anything using Spiked Chains. And I slipped up on the Charisma penalty lowering the ceiling of 1 PB= +1 Ability Score, so spending 2 to negate the Charisma penalty caps at 12. Not a proper party face, but actively a bit good at it, and the point there is being no less bad up to that threshold while also catching up on some of the skill losses for Fey RHD over Rogue levels. It lags behind in some extremes of breadth and damage, but not by more than a full level's worth, and there's enough that can snap open with that +6 Dex and Hide in Plain Sight to make me call for it being LA +0. A practically invisible Chain Tripper or Ubercharger is not the sort of thing to casually allow.

[Temotei]

LA +0 seems fair.

[Thurbane]

I just watched the BoVD movie the other day (not great, but better than the first official D&D movie by a lot), and one of the main characters is a Shadar-Kai (i.e. human with piercings and fake tattoos).

• Medium Fey (extraplanar)
• 3 RHD (d6 hp, poor BAB, 2 good saves, 6 skill points/"level"): there are worse RHD, especially for a skillmonkey.
• 30 ft move.
• Sneak attack +1d6: same as a 1st level Rogue.
• Hide in plain sight: very nice, but I think I'd rather take Dark Creature template and not deal with 3 RHD.
• Shadow curse: every time you suffer one of several conditions/effects, make a Will save or get a negative level. You need plane of shadow + Greater Restoration, otherwise Wish or Miracle to get rid of the negative levels. Ouch.
• Superior low light vision.
• Dex +6, Cha -2: Net +4, and lets face it, Cha is a dump stat for a lot of folks.
• Small-ish but useful racial skill list. Situational +10 racial bonus on Hide.
• EWP (spiked chain) as a bonus feat: bonus feats are always nice, and this one becomes fairly versatile with a level of Warblade.

Humanoid in form, and can speak. No issues with gear or class progression.

I'm a bit torn here: they get some decent stuff, but nothing I'd call amazing. Weigh that up against 3 lost class levels, and an inbuilt weakness that can cause negative levels that are difficult to remove. I guess would could pump up your Will save to the point where you rarely fail? Would some means or being immune to negative levels work? The racial HD aren't terrible, though, especially if you are planning to go Rogue or similar.

I'll call it LA +0, but not far from -0 territory IMHO (how would a Shadar-Kai compare to a level 2 Human Rogue with the Dark Template?). I don't think Shadow Curse quite warrants an asterisk, but you will need to devote some resources to managing it.

[Caelestion]

I'll weigh in on +0 LA as well.

[Sutr]

+0, I played one of these, they aren't that bad, but I don't think they are that good either. Probably best in swordsage for advancement.

[Remuko]

I just watched the BoVD movie the other day (not great, but better than the first official D&D movie by a lot), and one of the main characters is a Shadar-Kai (i.e. human with piercings and fake tattoos).

Hold up. Theres a third one? :O I had no idea! I'm gonna have to check that out.

[Inevitability]

Just to be clear, does the negative level apply when they fall asleep?

Sleep is specifically mentioned as a form of unconsciousness that doesn't apply negative levels.

[Inevitability]

Shadow Asp

Tiny magical beasts with 1 RHD (which, as always, can be replaced with a class level). Shadow asps have amazing dexterity, surprisingly solid constitution, average wisdom and charisma, and strength and intelligence scores that could've been worse (7 and 4, respectively). The asps have a fine land speed, a slow climb speed, some natural armor, and a venomous bite that deals strength damage.

The asp also has the intended ability to turn creatures it slays into shadows, which can't move far from the place of their demise and are otherwise autonomous (which does make one wonder why asps don't get killed by their own shadows, to be honest). However, the wording is 'slain by the shadow asp's poison' which obviously never happens with strength-damaging venoms. Technically the ability functions, but unless you find a way to deal constitution damage instead, it's not going to be doing much. That said, even if the ability works as intended it doesn't seem particularly unbalanced: uncontrollable location-bound shadows are as much of a threat to you as they are to other foes (as in: either not at all or a lot).

Additionally, the snakes can turn incorporeal for one hour a day. Use of the ability is non-continuous (meaning that it can be used during every battle of the day), and it can arguably be activated and de-activated as a free action. This is huge, especially at low levels.

Finally, the asp gets a big bonus on Hide checks, as well as a Listen/Spot bonus.

Not having limbs is never fun, but being an amazing scout that can be semi-permanently incorporeal, use a decent poison bite, and easily advance in many caster/rogueish classes is worth a couple of levels. +2 LA for now, arguably +3 might be in order.