The LA-assignment thread VIII: Way Too Much For Vampirism

[Efrate]

I missed the ethereal hop ability. That is really good. Change me to +1*. Astral is really really good.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

These guys also have a decent progression into Master of the Unseen Hand, with telekinesis at-will. That also pretty much kills any problems with lacking hands.

[Thurbane]

These guys also have a decent progression into Master of the Unseen Hand, with telekinesis at-will. That also pretty much kills any problems with lacking hands.

Great call! This would be a perfect case of MotUH being a good PrC for the character.

[danielxcutter]

Can somebody elaborate? I looked at the PrC and it doesn’t look that good, though I suppose it helps with action economy and effectiveness of an already versatile SLA...

[liquidformat]

Mouthpick weapon + "slams"/hooves?

Mouthpick requires having a bite attack which Shedu doesn't have.

Can somebody elaborate? I looked at the PrC and it doesn’t look that good, though I suppose it helps with action economy and effectiveness of an already versatile SLA...

Well 3 levels of MotUH gives you all the versatility of having hands including full attack and maintaining Telekinesis as a move action instead of a standard. There are some extra interesting things going on here like moving the weapon up to 20' without getting an AoO. Also these abilities aren't greatly defined so it seems like the 20' of moving is part of your standard action to make an attack and not a separate move action. Anyways a 3 level dip in this PRC is pretty great the last two levels are a bit meh though.

I am on the fence about astral projection from what I am reading you can't make a clone on the plane your normal body is on so the abuse is only possible in a game where you are plane traveling. I have yet to be in a game that had plane travel before level 15 and most of them are around level 17 when level 9 spells are in play. So simply having +2 LA should be fine to balance the Shedu.

[danielxcutter]

Full attacking isn’t much if you don’t get to use feats or even bonus damage from Strength or Charisma, I think... could be wrong, though.

[Inevitability]

Voting for the shedu will remain open for a couple more days, after that it's back to the regular three-day schedule.

[Temotei]

Put me down for LA +2, no asterisk.

[ExLibrisMortis]

I don't think being ethereal is going to be that amazing in combat, since it consumes your move action, stops AoOs/potential immediate actions (counters!), and greatly limits your sight range. That said, shedu have some cool features and a good beatstick chassis. I'll say LA +0* despite the lack of hands.

[danielxcutter]

...Honestly, I wouldn’t play one, but I think that’s less to do with the abilities and more to do with it being rather outside my comfort zone in the first place and the abilities aren’t sufficiently good enough for me to at least consider otherwise. I think that’s less indicative of my opinions of the actual capabilities and more about how my comfort zone isn’t wide enough to accommodate them... or anything that isn’t a multiclass gish build, I strongly suspect.

[Thurbane]

Mouthpick requires having a bite attack which Shedu doesn't have.

Good point. Still, there are ways to gain a bite attack, but that would cost resources.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Mouthpick requires having a bite attack which Shedu doesn't have.

Could've sworn I'd already posted this question, but would an Opposable weapon work with a hoof? I don't remember a clause about requiring claws or tentacles, just a natural weapon, but it's been a long time since I actually looked at it.

[Thurbane]

Could've sworn I'd already posted this question, but would an Opposable weapon work with a hoof? I don't remember a clause about requiring claws or tentacles, just a natural weapon, but it's been a long time since I actually looked at it.

Nice! That's one I keep forgetting, even though it's in my list: Items for Nonhumanoid Creatures

To wield an opposable weapon, a creature must be corporeal, have limbs, have proficiency with the weapon, and be able to stand without the limb(s) that wield the opposable weapon.

Normally I'd question a quadruped being able to use an opposable weapon, due to the last part of that sentence, but our friend the Shedu specifically has five legs, so should be no issues - even with a two-handed weapon. You can enjoy that juicy 1.5x Str bonus / 2x Power Attack damage output that melee types love so much.

If you wanted to get fancy, you might be able to put the Opposable quality on a Dragonshard Pommel, so you can switch out different weapons...

[TotallyNotEvil]

Honestly, I really don't know want to give it. I'm leaning +1 or +2.

[liquidformat]

Hear me out, Shedu/MotUH with Iaijutsu Focus maxed since MotUH allows your weapon to move 20' as part of a standard action attack you can use Ethereal jaunt for your move action then Telekinetic Wielder to draw and attack then go ethereal again. I think it could be an amusing character.

[Inevitability]

Shedu:

+0*: 1 vote
+1*: 1 vote
+2: 3 votes

Combined with the '+1 or +2' vote from TotallyNotEvil, the shedu will be assigned +2 LA, no asterisk.

[Inevitability]

Skulk

Basic humanoids, but sneaky.

Skulk have 2 RHD (oof), pretty bad stats (+4 dex, -2 wis, -4 cha), and overspecialized stealth abilities. Innate Nondetection (makes detection through divination harder) and Trackless Path are cool abilities that sadly drop in quality if you have non-stealthy pals with you. Meanwhile, Peerless Camouflage is pretty cool: it allows for skulks to run while hiding without a penalty to stealth. On top of this, skulks have +8 Move Silently and +15 Hide, presuming they are in light or no armor.

While the two RHD and stats are a disappointment, the huge stealth bonuses (and relative viability of stealth strategies), make me think that a skulk will be able to compete with an at-level rogue. +0 LA, but only play this if it fits your build extremely well.

[Thurbane]

Skulk

• Medium-Size Humanoid (Skulk)
• 2 RHD of a poor kind (d8 hp, medium BAB, 1 good save, 2 skill points/"level").
• 30 ft. speed.
• Innate nondetection: basically SR 20 vs. detection and divination effects. Not bad.
• Peerless camouflage: move or run with no movement penalty hide. Nice for any stealth build.
• Trackless path: add +10 to the DC of being tracked. Pretty niche, but not bad.
• Dex +4 Wis -2 Cha -4: net -2. Meh.
• Very small (but appropriate) racial skill list. +8 racial bonus to Move Silently, and +15 to Hide (but only in light or nor armor). Lets face it, stealth types wouldn't generally be wearing anything heavier than light armor.
• Arguably has proficiency with rapier, as well as simple weapons.

Medium humanoid and can speak. No issues with gear or class progression.

Decent for a stealth build: I'd agree with LA +0. If it only had the one HD (to swap for it's first level), definite LA +1 territory.

The only changes I'm seeing in the RoD version is their subtype is changed to Human (which is handy for a few things), and official LA was dropped to +1. Still happy to rate the RoD version as +0.

I had a (templated) Skulk in my last campaign as a spy/high end thief-for-hire that the BBEG employed once or twice.

[Temotei]

I think LA +0 is fair. Could probably take advantage of sniping pretty easily with those massive bonuses and peerless camouflage.

[liquidformat]

+0 LA is fine though it seems like it is on the low end, I am surprised they didn't get HiPS, that would put them firmly into +0 but they are still alright.

[Efrate]

+0. Fine stealth base, not exceptional nor terrible.

[ZamielVanWeber]

+0 nice is. It is a one trick pony but thanks to Darkstalker it is a good trick.

[Dimers]

Sure, LA +0. They're bad but not cripplingly bad.

[Inevitability]

Skybleeder

Remember the kaorti? Here's another of their charming pets.

The Skybleeder chassis grants them 12 aberration RHD, Huge size, a good strength stat and decent bonuses everywhere else. They can fly at a good pace, and are even surprisingly fast on land (40 ft.). Acid immunity, as well as precision damage/crit/flank immunity, are useful defensive features, and regeneration 5 (overcome by fire and acid) is useful too. Offensively, skybleeders have a wide array of (un)natural weapons, specifically three claws and eight tentacles.

Other special abilities are the typical Improved Grab, a weird Constrict that deals acid damage on top of regular damage, and Acid Rain (which deals acid damage to all creatures the skybleeder flies over). They are also continuously shrouded in Unnatural Mist, which grants them a Hide bonus, concealment, and druid magic spell resistance... but anyone within the cloud's 60 ft. radius can see through it fine, making it less than amazing in combat.

Finally, the 'bleeder gets some SLAs. The only interesting at-will spell is Wind Wall, but 3/day Call Lightning and Control Winds are moderately useful, and 1/day Control Weather and Cloudkill is worth mentioning as well.

The skybleeder isn't without its problems, though. 12 aberration RHD leave it with poor base saves, BAB, and HP, it can't use many equipment types, and it struggles with advancement. For now, I'll assign +0 LA.

[Edea]

My main issue's the regen. The other stuff's fairly easily emulated by a 12th level druid from a normal race (who's also not stuck as one of these things and has a better chassis), but the regen's annoying.

[ExLibrisMortis]

11 natural attacks is a bit of a blender, but other than that, I feel that the abilities are a bit directionless, a bit too unfocused to really build a solid character around, especially with the bad base attack and equipment limits. I'm tentatively going with -0, but not a bad one. I just feel that skybleeders can use a little head's start in terms of gathering up class features.

[Thurbane]

• Huge Aberration (10 ft reach).
• 12 RHD of a pretty poor kind (d8hp, medium BAB, 1 good save, 2 skill points/"level").
• Speed 40 ft, fly 80 ft (average): flight is always good.
• +11 natural AC
• 3 claws 2d8, 8 tantacles 1d4 (+1d6 acid): 11 natural attacks are pretty great for a melee build.
• Acid rain: very small area and damage, but if I'm reading correctly, this is automatic and requires no action?
• Constrict 1d4+1d6 acid: if you're going for a grapple build, not bad.
• Improved grab: pretty standard for a huge creature with tentacles.
• SLAs: at will - flare, shocking grasp, wind wall; 3/day - call lightning, control winds, gust of wind; 1/day - control weather, cloudkill, CL 12. Mixed bag, from useless (flare) through to decent (control winds, cloudkill).
• Acid immunity: any energy immunity without a corresponding vulnerability is good.
• Darkvision 60 ft.
• No discernible anatomy: immunity to criticals, sneak attacks, and can't be flanked. Nice.
• Regeneration 5, overcome by fire or force: very nice.
• Unnatural mist: hide bonus and concealment and, weirdly, SR 22 vs druid magic only. The concealment is decent.
• Str +16, Dex +6, Con +8, Int +4, Wis +6, Cha +2: net +42, no penalties. Nice.
• Small-ish but decent racial skill list. +10 to hide inside the mist.

Non-standard body type (and that's an understatement), and unsure if claws could manipulate objects. They can speak.

Weird one to rate: they get some good stuff, but 12 bad HD are hard to overlook. Flight, a ton of natural attacks, a couple of decent SLAs, regeneration, crit/SA immunity, and solid ability scores are good. Your size and body type are going to cause a fair amount of difficulties. DM call on how dexterous the claws (pincers) are. If you can wield weapons (or get an Opposable weapon) you can modify it so it can be "three-handed" for extra damage.

I'm willing to vote LA +0 at this point. I think you could make a playable melee bruiser/grappler with this.

Definitely DM potential as an encounter: always happy to have more Lovecraftian monsters in my repertoire.

[Zecrin]

I feel as if there is a notable difference between +0 and +1 here.

At +0 LA you can be a Skybleeder Souleater 7 / Sneak Attack Fighter 1 with craven for 15 attacks, each dealing two negative levels and ~43 damage.

If all attacks hit, that's 30 negative levels and 645 damage.

At +1 LA you can be a Skybleeder Soul-eater 6 / Sneak Attack Fighter 1 or a Skybleeder Soul-eater 7.

If all attacks hit that's either:

- 15 negative levels and 630 damage
- 30 negative levels and 270 damage

Realistically, you'll be doing even more damage with constrict.

With fly, regeneration, critical hit and precision immunity, reach, ranged attack protection, and a list of reasonably useful SLAs, I believe the skybleeder is superior to a totemist and so vote to give the skybleeder LA +1

[Caelestion]

Don't the negative levels only trigger once per round, rather than once per attack?

[Thurbane]

Don't the negative levels only trigger once per round, rather than once per attack?

Soueater's negative energy levels has been a source of vigorous debate for many years.

The two main schools of thought are:

1. It requires a standard action touch attack, limiting you to once/round (unless you can get multiple standard actions).

2. It triggers automatically on each and every natural attack.

As 3.0 material it's not particularly clear, would require a DM to "modify as necessary for 3.5", and there is RAW support to argue for either ruling.

Personally, I don't think the existence of a single PrC should directly effect the rating of every creature with multiple natural attacks, especially since there's no clear consensus it actually works that way.

Sneak Attack, on the other hand, I feel is quite relevant for multiple attacks, and Craven can crank it to high levels. Still, many high level opponents are immune to Sneak Attack...