The LA-assignment thread VIII: Way Too Much For Vampirism

[TotallyNotEvil]

On the White, given their similarities I'm inclined to take the same measure we decided upon for the Red, which had it 3 levels above its racial casting.

But it has a far smaller gap between HD and casting than the Red had, so the same measure will block 9ths.

So, at 11 HD and 13th level casting, going to call for +5 LA so it still ends up with 9th level spells. It will actually have about the same HP as a Wiz 16 just from the racial CON. AC will be at least 13 higher, and the spell immunity actually blocks out a lot of annoying but effective stuff.

For Black, I'd consider 17th level wizard casting and +20 Intelligence a worthy 20th level build, to say nothing of immunity to the majority of arcane spells. So, at 16 HD, I'm going to say +4. The +19 AC over a normal wizard doesn't hurt either. Or the fact that a CON 14 Wiz 20 would have about 92 HP, and this baby has 104 from racial constitution alone, and as shown for the Red, both White and Black can have all-around great stats.

[Blue Jay]

The Red Ethergaunt intimidated me enough that I declined to vote, and these two also make me a bit wary. But, I'm going to go ahead and vote +4 for both White and Black Ethergaunts.

[Sutr]

6 and 5 respectively as a DM. White ethergaunt has abilities that should put it out of 9nth level casting and black is +15* intillegence over the standard wizard with all that entails, as well as great immunities, hit die, I'd play it over any 20th level wizard build.

*no level up bonuses, with a good argument for 5 for white to be made, but I haven't seen it.

[danielxcutter]

Also, unlike the Illithid(though arguably with slightly weaker abilities IMO), it's easier to get a boost to arcane caster levels than manifester levels, so lagging behind isn't quite a problem when you have so high stats you don't need that much gear otherwise.

[lord_khaine]

Yeah. I think + 6 LA for white, and + 5 LA for black as well sounds fitting.
They cant get all those massive bonuses, and still expect to also keep 9th level spells before epic levels.

[Caelestion]

I'm with TNE here. I think that LA +5 for white and LA +4 for black are appropriate.

[TotallyNotEvil]

Yeah. I think + 6 LA for white, and + 5 LA for black as well sounds fitting.
They cant get all those massive bonuses, and still expect to also keep 9th level spells before epic levels.

I mean, that's a fair assessment.

I just don't believe many others are willing to go for it, losing 9ths is a big No No for most of the playground.

Thinking on it, the Black specially seems almost strictly superior to a Wiz 20...

[Mike Miller]

Well, I am going to vote +5 and +4.

[liquidformat]

I mean, that's a fair assessment.

I just don't believe many others are willing to go for it, losing 9ths is a big No No for most of the playground.

Thinking on it, the Black specially seems almost strictly superior to a Wiz 20...

This is my issue, Black are strictly better than a 20th level wizard in every way; saves, casting, AC, HP, skill points (I guess Wiz 20 wins in max skill points per skill though depending on the skill Black's ability bonuses make that moot). I just can't see how it is fair to play an out of the box black compared to a wiz 20. Then again at level 21 wiz now has epic spell casting which arguably trumps Black. So I am stuck between +4 and +5. I will go with +4 LA just because this is an edge case.

On the other hand I think the White is well balanced at +5 LA, it doesn't have enough to clearly be better than a Red at the same ECL so I think it is fair for it to also get 9th level casting by 20.

[Zecrin]

In my experience, a mid optimized wizard will end the game with an intelligence of around 30, so by 20th level, they are casting 5 ninth level spells a day. The black ethergaunt with an LA of +4, would be casting 4. The wizard would be slightly more likely to overcome spell resistance, and have slightly larger range on his spells, however the ethergaunt would have +10 to all spell save DCs, which is the equivalent of getting to apply a +4 metamagic feat to every spell you cast for free.

That's before factoring in all of the Black Ethergaunts other abilities, some of which I would argue are equivilent the of ninth level spells (spell immunity and enslave).

I would argue that the Ethergaunt is too powerful to have 9th level spells by LV 20. I vote LA +5 for the Black Ethergaunt.

Now you could argue that a Wizard can polymorph any object himself into a Black Ethergaunt, then Persistent Shapechange into an Ethergaunt, and functionally be a Black Ethergaunt. Therefore the monster in question deserves a very low LA, perhaps just a +1 or +2. Not once in an actual game have I seen this tactic actually used, so for now, I'll just ignore it.

[TotallyNotEvil]

I mean, "you could Persist Shapechange" is sort of a nonstarter.

Yeah, maybe an Incantrix could, but that's not a terribly realistic scenario otherwise, and incredibly cheesy besides.

[Aniikinis]

+4 for both. Admittedly I like my games on a bit of a higher power level, but these guys are just strong.

[Thurbane]

White Ethergaunt

• Medium Aberration (extraplanar)
• 11 RHD (of a not-great kind - easier to swallow when you get innate casting)
• 30 ft move
• +10 natural AC: sweet.
• Enslave: 3/day dominate monster, with a limitation on the number of creatures enslaved. Still, as a Supernatural ability, you don't need to worry about SR.
• Spells: almost the entire reason to play these guys. 13th level Wizard casting - 2 levels above your HD.
• Stupefying gaze: at will, free action, gaze attack roughly equivalent to Touch of Stupidity. Nice.
• Darkvision 60 ft
• Material jaunt: ability to inhabit the material plane for 1 round/HD, 1/hour. If you want to stay longer, you need other magic.
• Immunity to spells: unlimited SR vs. arcane spells of 4th level or lower.
• Total vision: automatically detect most creatures in a 40 foot radius. Nice.
• Str +2, Dex +6, Con +4, Int +16, Wis +4, Cha +2: net +34. Pretty good. Admittedly, some scores aren't much use to Wizards, but +16 to your casting stat is great.
• Small but decent racial class list: most importantly, the two main skills for a Wizard are there (Concentration and Spellcraft).
• EWP as a bonus feat. No Bonus Combat Casting?

Humanoid in form, and can speak. Gear and class progression shouldn't be an issue (class progression is fairly obvious). Solid stat boosts, including a large boost to your casting stat. Other icing on the cake with dominate monster, de-buffing gaze attack, all around vision and immunity to low level arcane spells with SR. And of course, 13th level casting from arguably the best list in the game.

With 13th level casting on a 11HD chassis, I'd already be looking at a minimum +2. The book lists +5. Throw on the stat boosts, dominate monster, and other perks, I'm voting LA +5 here, strangely in agreement with the book.

[Thurbane]

Black Ethergaunt

• Medium Aberration (extraplanar)
• 11 RHD (of a not-great kind - easier to swallow when you get innate casting)
• 30 ft move
• +15 natural AC: sweet.
• Enslave: 3/day dominate monster, with a limitation on the number of creatures enslaved. Still, as a Supernatural ability, you don't need to worry about SR.
• Spells: almost the entire reason to play these guys. 17th level Wizard casting - 1 level above your HD. You start play with 9th level spells!
• Stupefying gaze: at will, free action, gaze attack roughly equivalent to Touch of Stupidity. Nice.
• Darkvision 60 ft
• Material jaunt: ability to inhabit the material plane for 1 round/HD, 1/hour. If you want to stay longer, you need other magic.
• Immunity to spells: unlimited SR vs. arcane spells of 6th level or lower. This is significant, even at high level play.
• Total vision: automatically detect most creatures in a 40 foot radius. Nice.
• Str +2, Dex +8, Con +4, Int +20, Wis +4, Cha +4: net +42. Pretty great. Admittedly, some scores aren't much use to Wizards, but +20 to your casting stat is amazing.
• Small but decent racial class list: most importantly, the two main skills for a Wizard are there (Concentration and Spellcraft).
• EWP as a bonus feat. No Bonus Combat Casting?

Humanoid in form, and can speak. Gear and class progression shouldn't be an issue (class progression is fairly obvious). Solid stat boosts, including a large boost to your casting stat. Other icing on the cake with dominate monster, de-buffing gaze attack, all around vision and immunity to low level arcane spells with SR. And of course, 17th level casting from arguably the best list in the game.

With 17th level casting on a 16HD chassis, I'd already be looking at a minimum +1. The book lists +4. Throw on the stat boosts, dominate monster, and other perks, I'm voting LA +4 here, strangely in agreement with the book.

[Efrate]

White +5. Black +4. Both are just better than a wizard at pretty much all points.

[Remuko]

I think +3 and +2 is more than enough for these tbh. I dont feel any of the arguments for higher convince me. Not that im expecting my votes to matter much, since it seems to be well below everyone elses.

[ExLibrisMortis]

I think +3/+2 is fine. (Note that this an updated assessment, I had +3/+3 here first).)

When shapechange is in play--and black ethergaunts can cast it by default--you need to compare to a non-RHD wizard using a sensible PrC. Since black ethergaunts at LA +4 can't actually get any class features pre-epic, be it the slightly OP Incantatrix', the gishy Swiftblade's, or the funky Master Transmogrifist's, I would prefer playing a 20th-level wizard shapechanging into a black ethergaunt than an actual black ethergaunt at ECL 20. On the other hand, black ethergaunts need at least +1 LA, just to balance out the casting, and they do get stuff that's hard to emulate. It's a toss-up between +2 and +3, but I'll go +2, on the basis that +8-16 effective Intelligence* is just about all you get that isn't emulated by shapechange.

The whites have one extra level of casting above their RHD, and can get actual class features to make up for their weaker racial abilities, so an extra point of LA is fair.

(A Master Transmogrifist, incidentally, gets a 720-minute (twelve-hour) duration out of Extended shapechange at CL 18. You can reasonably have all-day coverage for only two spell slots, or even one slot, if using a lot of CL boosts, like Circle Magic. With MT class features and Halruaan Elder class features, a human wizard can give any black ethergaunt a run for their money.)


*A black ethergaunt would have about 18 base + 20 racial + 6 enhancement + 5 inherent = 49 INT at ECL 20. A human would have about 18 base + 5 increases + 5 inherent + 6 enhancement = 34 INT at ECL 20, increasing to 30 base + 5 inherent + 6 enhancement = 41 INT with shapechange into a black ethergaunt. Hence the +20 racial bonus doesn't result in a twenty-point difference at the bottom line; it works out to half that, give or take.

[Zancloufer]

This is tough. Anything less than +3 white and +2 black is a terrible idea as they become essentially better wizards. As with the Red I WANT to go with my higher +4 and +3 which seem fair, but people are again throwing almost absurdly high LA at these things.

+3 white and +2 black. It is a little low but someone has to look at these objectively.

Also the +5 on Black Ethergaunts is just absurd. They have 21 ECL with 15 HD and 17 CL. Dealing with Epic Spellcasting right out the gate but not able to have it for 4 more levels is a death sentence. At least +3/+4 you won't be an epic caster without epic casting.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Also the +5 on Black Ethergaunts is just absurd. They have 21 ECL with 15 HD and 17 CL. Dealing with Epic Spellcasting right out the gate but not able to have it for 4 more levels is a death sentence. At least +3/+4 you won't be an epic caster without epic casting.

While casting, and especially high level casting, is beyond my realm of expertise, Black Ethergaunts get a +20 to Int. That translates to a +9 or +10 to save DCs compared to a wizard. That's the kind of thing that redeems prestige classes with lost caster levels. Combined with all their other perks, the argument is that they are simply better than a level 20 wizard that has optimized for the same things as them, so no matter how inappropriate +4 LA may be in light of epic casting, +3 is even more inappropriate for the bounds of this thread.

While I'm not going to vote on these guys, I do think that going with the more conservative option is probably better, as they're already being compared to wizards, the gold standard of power ceilings.

[ExLibrisMortis]

While casting, and especially high level casting, is beyond my realm of expertise, Black Ethergaunts get a +20 to Int. That translates to a +9 or +10 to save DCs compared to a wizard.

It doesn't quite work out to +10. Yes, you have a high base Intelligence, but you lose DC boosts from class features, and you can't shapechange into a black ethergaunt to get more Intelligence. That sounds stupid, but that's a real thing that makes wizards stronger, and ethergaunts don't get to do it (and they're clearly playing at a level and tier where that is just the thing to do). See my post above. And sorry about the many edits; my thoughts were catching up to my typing.

[Sutr]

This is tough. Anything less than +3 white and +2 black is a terrible idea as they become essentially better wizards. As with the Red I WANT to go with my higher +4 and +3 which seem fair, but people are again throwing almost absurdly high LA at these things.

+3 white and +2 black. It is a little low but someone has to look at these objectively.

Also the +5 on Black Ethergaunts is just absurd. They have 21 ECL with 15 HD and 17 CL. Dealing with Epic Spellcasting right out the gate but not able to have it for 4 more levels is a death sentence. At least +3/+4 you won't be an epic caster without epic casting.

That's insulting, thank you for your opinion. I understand you have strong opinions about a game, but I am objective. You don't even have the creatures hit die right. I compared it to a wizard 3/ binder 1 /anima mage 10/ initiate of the sevenfold veil 7. The Anima mage had some better tricks I agree, but you have to weight that with heightening all spells 7 levels and 10 extra skill points per level. At +2 you are saying that my wizard 17 could ask for a +12 unnamed bonus to intelligence instead of a level and you'd say no that's too weak have immunity to arcane spells 6th level and lower except spells that you want the effects from.

[ExLibrisMortis]

I understand you have strong opinions about a game, but I am objective.

I think you're not the most obvious person on this thread to make that sort of claim, Sutr. For example, I'm intrigued by your choice of comparison, which was also conspicuously absent from your post.

[TotallyNotEvil]

+3/+2 is just way too low. As in, I'm halfway swayed by the argument that those should at least double.

Anything less than +5/+4 is just too little. If they were PrCs, they'd be taken every single time. If they were a template, it'd be regarded as the best template a wizard could ever have. It's just too much of an auto-pick.

[Zancloufer]

That's insulting, thank you for your opinion. I understand you have strong opinions about a game, but I am objective. You don't even have the creatures hit die right. I compared it to a wizard 3/ binder 1 /anima mage 10/ initiate of the sevenfold veil 7. The Anima mage had some better tricks I agree, but you have to weight that with heightening all spells 7 levels and 10 extra skill points per level. At +2 you are saying that my wizard 17 could ask for a +12 unnamed bonus to intelligence instead of a level and you'd say no that's too weak have immunity to arcane spells 6th level and lower except spells that you want the effects from.

My bad made a typo there and typed 15 instead of 16 HD. Definitly on me.

Also I don't disagree that I am low balling it; +3 is the bare minimum I would normally give it and I could see +4. I just feel people are underestimating Epic Spell Casting. You need 21 HD and 17 CL to take it so anything that would normally be a Tier 1 Caster that has an ECL of 21+ but less than 21 HD is instantly useless in all but the lowest OP of groups.

IMHO a straight human wizard 21 would make the 16 HD Black Ethergaunt look bad. With enough spell slots to burn or extra casters the Wizard can essentially transform themselves into said Black Ethergaunt with all it's special abilities. Permanently. As a swift action. And my the Wizard I mean all of the Wizard's party members.

[TotallyNotEvil]

It's only useless when compared to Epic spells, which are the most broken part of a very broken sub-system.

There are enormously worse things to do with your 21st level than learning ninth level spells (for the White) or just having the casting of a 17th level wizard with the raw stats of someone much higher, immunity to the majority of arcane spells and all the other stuff.

[danielxcutter]

It's only useless when compared to Epic spells, which are the most broken part of a very broken sub-system.

There are enormously worse things to do with your 21st level than learning ninth level spells (for the White) or just having the casting of a 17th level wizard with the raw stats of someone much higher, immunity to the majority of arcane spells and all the other stuff.

This is true, yes. While I'm not particularly in agreement with such a high LA, personally, I certainly don't think it's a total deal-breaker.

Honestly, the only real big problems are having less feats and less HD - and the last one is mostly just a real pain when someone uses HD-based abilities such as Dictum on you.

[Thurbane]

I love how the monsters with innate casting usually stir up the most heated debates.

[danielxcutter]

I love how the monsters with innate casting usually stir up the most heated debates.

Probably because casting has the most variables - whether something is good enough to justify losing a level or more of casting progress, what kind of casting, how does it synergize with other abilities the monster has, etc.

Non-casting types are much easier because they're relatively simpler. Is it a bruiser? Well, just see if they can easily deal comparable damage to a PC of similar level, then. Stealth-based? How much of a bonus on Hide and Move Silently, or can it turn invisible? That kind of stuff.

[remetagross]

OK, here's the comparison table between a Black Ethergaunt and a level 20 Wizard. Let's assume there's a 32-point buy, the Black Ethergaunt and the Wizard both buy Str 8/Dex 14/Con 14/Int 18/Wis 12/Cha 8. At levels 4, 8, 12, 16 and 20 the Wizard bumps Int. On the other hand, the Black Ethergaunt does not get any ability score increase from its 16 RHD, as these are already included in its ability scores. Let's also assume they both have bought a Tome of Clear Thought +5 and a Headband of Intellect +6.

	black ethergaunt	level 20 wizard
Ability scores	Str 10 Dex 22 Con 18 Int 49 Wis 16 Cha 12	Str 8 Dex 14 Con 14 Int 34 Wis 12 Cha 8
average HP	168+(16*Con bonus from items)	90+(20*Con bonus from items)
max spell level	9th	9th
spellslots (0th/1st/2nd/3rd/4th/5th/6th/7th/8th/9th)	4/9/9/9/8/8/8/7/5/4	4/7/7/7/7/6/6/6/6/5
spell save DC	29+spell level	22+spell level
feats/bonus feats from wizard level	6	7/5
Base saves	+5/+5/+10	+6/+6/+12

Alright, here's my mindset: a player willing to use a Black Ethergaunt as a PC is at least a moderate optimizer. Hence, the would-be Ethergaunt PC has to be compared to an at least moderately optimized Wizard 20. For this reason, I think putting Shapechange on the table is very relevant, and not at all theoretical play. Given that the Wizard 20 has one extra 9th level spell per day compared to the Black Ethergaunt, let's assume he uses this spell to cast Shapechange. Then, we have two possibilities.

1. He finds some form to change into that's even better than a Black Ethergaunt (say, a Chronotyryn). In which case, the logical thing to do for the Black Ethergaunt PC is to also use Shapechange to turn into said Chronotyryn. The Wizard is thus still one 9th-level spell ahead for the day. (Except if said form has too much HD for the caster level of the Ethergaunt PC, but not too much for the Wizard PC, but given enough CL tricks and spent WBL the Ethergaunt PC can quite likely overcome the difference)

2. He turns into a Black Ethergaunt. The Black Ethergaunt PC does not, and the two PCs now have an equal number of 9th level spells for the day.

Outcome 1. is quite more likely, given that better forms than the Ethergaunt exist. Let's suppose that's what happens.

The two PCs will end up with the exact same array of physical ability scores, movement modes, perception modes, bonus to AC, (Ex) and (Su) abilities. For this reason, their AC will be the same, and their save modifiers will be exactly the same (with the exception of Will save being a tad higher for the Ethergaunt) and applied on almost identical base saving throws (the Wizard's being a little better) will yield almost the same final saving modifiers. Skill points are a nonargument when discussing the power level of two high-level wizards. We're done with these.

The Wizard has more CL, the Ethergaunt more HPs. In order to reach CL 20, let's say the Ethergaunt takes Iron Will and Reserves of Strength, and routinely pumps its CL by 3 each time it's needed. The 5d6 damage it takes will be offset by the extra 78 HPs it has over the Wizard. So that's settled too.

As far as spells per day go, the Wizard has one more 9th-level spell and one more 8th-level spell; the Ethergaunt boasts a massive 2 extra spells per day of each level from levels 1 to 3, 5 to 6, and one extra at levels 4 and 7. Let's convert that into Pearls of Power. The Black Ethergaunt needs to spend 64+81=145k gp. The Wizard needs to spend 2*(1+4+9+25+36)+(16+49)=215k gp. Meaning the Ethergaunt comes out on top with an extra 70k gp to boot.

But then, the Ethergaunt only has 6 feats, 2 of which are already taken by Iron Will and Reserves of Strength (let's say it gets Iron Will from a magical location, so that's only 1 down; on the other hand, the Wizard gets to DCFS away his bonus Scribe Scroll to something more useful it it wishes so). So that's 5 open feats for the Ethergaunt vs 12 open feats for the Wizard. The Ethergaunt blows one feat on Obtain Familiar, to match the Wizard's. It's now down to 4 open feats. The Wizard is in excess of 8 feats.

However, the Ethergaunt's spells' save DCs are a whopping 7 points above the Wizard's. How can the Wizard overcome that? Well, there's the Irresistible Spell metamagic feat (which needs two other feats as prerequisites), from Kingdoms of Kalamar, that adds an extra +10 to save DCs, at the cost of a +4 level adjustement. The Wizard can then take Southern Magician to be allowed to cast once per day per two caster levels any spell as a divine spell; he takes Planar Touchstone (Catalogues of Enlightenment) [Sun domain from Dark Sun Campaign Setting]: that grants him Turn Undead. He finally takes Divine Metamagic (Irresistible Spell), and buys a bunch of Nightsticks. There we go. The Wizard has used up 6 feat slots, and a bunch of money into Nightsticks. Let's say he spends half of all the money normally used for consumables on them (which is, as a rule of thumb, 25% of one's WBL). Meaning he uses up, at level 20, 95k gp on them (that's about 13 Nightsticks). Sure, the Wizard can only do this a couple times per day, whereas the Ethergaunt can always do this and for free; but when the Wizard does pull off the trick, the save DC of his spells ends up being 3 higher than the Ethergaunt's, so I'd say this roughly balances out.

When all is said and done, on the one hand the Ethergaunt gets an extra 70+95=165kp gp (and more than 100 extra skill points, for that matter); on the other hand the Wizard still has 2 extra feats. The Wizard has pulled off quite a complicated combination of feats from three different campaign settings, two of which are quite obscure, has made a questionable use of Nightsticks, has dug off a Shapechange form better than the Ethergaunt's...and is 2 feats ahead and 165k gp down.

On the other hand, the Wizard could choose not to try and mimick the Ethergaunt and do completely different things with all his feats, take powerful PrCs instead of a bland Wizard 20, etc. If he tries to not be a Black Ethergaunt, he can - whereas the Black Ethergaunt cannot untake his RHD to take levels in, say, Mindbender, or Dread Witch, or Fatespinner, or Cerebremancer, or...so that, more or less, balances things out in my mind.

My verdict: on the whole, the Black Ethergaunt is far from being put to shame by the comparison. But it's not a landslide victory by any means, either. In regard to this, I vote LA +4 for the Black Ethergaunt. Incidentally, I've also voted, for the Red Ethergaunt, for an LA that would put it 3 caster levels behind a Wizard of equal ECL.

It has taken me ages to do all of that, so I can't be bothered to do the same for the White Ethergaunt. I'll just suppose the "3 CLs above equal ECL Wizard" holds true there too, and as such vote for LA +5 for the White Ethergaunt.

[danielxcutter]

While "inflexible" would be hard to say for a creature with Wizard casting and an extremely high bonus to Int, the fact that from White onwards, the special abilities Ethergaunts have start to fall a bit behind compared to the varied prestige classes a "normal" Wizard can take is a point against them, if relatively minor.

Perhaps a more precise term would be "predetermined" - it is true that an Ethergaunt will not be able to spare many(if at all) levels for prestige classes, and thus lacks some of the versatility prestige classes can give, the sheer amount of spells from a high casting stat and a ridiculous DC even for lower-leveled spells might make up for it.

I'm personally not sure if I'd play one, but that's just my bias for having interesting and varied abilities. Many others will likely prefer having a much higher quality toolbox over having a marginally bigger one, I expect.