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  1. - Top - End - #241
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VIII: Way Too Much For Vampirism

    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post
    Bonus feat and armor proficiency. Plus it allows you to swap out a level of Eldritch Knight for Spellsword.

    It's not necessary, but I don't think it's an unforgivable sin.
    It costs you a level of casting and doesn't get you more base attack. Since you'll cast greater luminous armour for AC, the armour proficiency doesn't do much either. Then again, you still hit 9ths at level 20, so... it's forgivable at level 20? I'd rather go for warblade than fighter, though. Having a stance and a couple of maneuvers just makes melee a bit more interesting. (As an aside: going by the rules in ToB, your initiator level drops from 2 to 1 when taking warblade 1 after 4 RHD. The calculation switches from "half character level" (includes HD) to "initiating class level plus half other class levels" (does not include HD). I'd probably houserule that, though, and then you'd get to pick 2nd-level maneuvers. Battle Leader's Charge isn't bad, especially with bladerager troll form.)

    Swapping out EK for Spellsword doesn't do much, since you only get the ASF reduction, which isn't that relevant with AC in the build.
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  2. - Top - End - #242
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VIII: Way Too Much For Vampirism

    Feytouched


    An actual PC-intended race! Lo and behold!

    Feytouched are fey with 1 RHD (which can be swapped out for a class level). They receive +2 dexterity, +2 charisma, and -2 constitution, immunity to mind-affecting effects, and the ability to cast Charm person 1/day.

    Compared to most +1 LA races, this seems slightly underwhelming, to the point where only niche builds that desperately want a fey typing would even bother with the race (and even then; duskling and killoren are probably better options). However, at +0 LA the net +2 to abilities, free level 1 spell, and blanket immunity to a common attack form seem overwhelming. -2 constitution stings, but doesn't quite balance out all this (or does it?)

    For now I'll assign +1 here, but I recommend allowing LA buyoff. +0 might be more reasonable in a campaign without buyoff, but I'm not sure.
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  3. - Top - End - #243
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VIII: Way Too Much For Vampirism

    Fey Touched are an interesting case.

    They definitely aren't a strong +1 race, but net +2 to abilities are immunity to mind affecting is a bit strong for LA +0.

    For now mark me down as LA +1, but I may reconsider after I've seen arguments.

  4. - Top - End - #244
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VIII: Way Too Much For Vampirism

    Noteworthily, Feytouched have both a racial class (letting you play one at 0 LA in exchange for losing some of the features) and a transition class that lets them become a full Half-Fey for just one LA. You could arguably combine the two, but that risks hard looks from your DM.

    Also, it looks like rather than having immunity to mind-affecting, feytouched have immunity to the entire Enchantment school of magic (or was that changed with the 3.5 update/errata?). Don't know if that's an upgrade or a downgrade, though. Nope, that's Half-Fey. My B.
    Last edited by PoeticallyPsyco; 2020-03-24 at 06:22 PM.
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  5. - Top - End - #245
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VIII: Way Too Much For Vampirism

    IIRC, the fey typing also means that they can't be targeted by humanoid only spells(which might be a double-edged sword, but is probably a net gain) and some spells like alter self get different options that are generally more powerful than what a humanoid would get.

    I'd say this one needs to be LA +1 as it gets enough that it'd beat all LA 0 races in its niche. It's not a particularly strong LA +1 though.
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VIII: Way Too Much For Vampirism

    I'll say LA +0. Immunity to mind-affecting has its downsides (e.g. no morale bonuses) and rarely comes into play at low levels IME. It's valuable at high levels, when your once-per-day charm and your net +2 stat will be meaningless. And being immune to mind effects doesn't make you immune to mindscrews based on illusions or social interaction. I don't see this as better than a human.

    PoeticallyPsyco, my copy of Fiend Folio says mind-affecting rather than enchantment, and the errata document I found online has no Feytouched entry. Can you describe your book's print run or edition?
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    mad Re: The LA-assignment thread VIII: Way Too Much For Vampirism

    +1 is pretty easy to buy off anyway. While a weak-ish +1, the immunity is nothing to scoff at and only gets better as levels rise.

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VIII: Way Too Much For Vampirism

    This is definitely better than +0, so LA +1 it has to be.

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VIII: Way Too Much For Vampirism

    They also qualify for Charming the Arrows, which could be nice for a Cha-based archer.
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  10. - Top - End - #250
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VIII: Way Too Much For Vampirism

    Quote Originally Posted by Dimers View Post
    I'll say LA +0. Immunity to mind-affecting has its downsides (e.g. no morale bonuses) and rarely comes into play at low levels IME. It's valuable at high levels, when your once-per-day charm and your net +2 stat will be meaningless. And being immune to mind effects doesn't make you immune to mindscrews based on illusions or social interaction. I don't see this as better than a human.
    I agree. It's not a good start if your feytouched bard is immune to their own Inspire Courage. Feytouched aren't better than the best LA +0 races (bonus feat races, kobolds, illumians, whisper gnomes, water orcs, etcetera). LA +0.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keledrath View Post
    Libris: look at your allowed sources. I don't think any of your options were from those.
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  11. - Top - End - #251
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VIII: Way Too Much For Vampirism

    Quote Originally Posted by Dimers View Post
    I'll say LA +0. Immunity to mind-affecting has its downsides (e.g. no morale bonuses) and rarely comes into play at low levels IME.
    Sleep, Charm...these and others often come into play at low levels, and can take a character out of a fight.

    In regard to the morale bonuses, the Feytouched should be able to voluntarily suppress their immunity:

    Quote Originally Posted by PHB p.177
    Voluntarily Giving up a Saving Throw: A creature can voluntarily forego a saving throw and willingly accept a spellís result. Even a character with a special resistance to magic (for example, an elfís resistance to sleep effects) can suppress this quality.

  12. - Top - End - #252
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VIII: Way Too Much For Vampirism

    Quote Originally Posted by Thurbane View Post
    Sleep, Charm...these and others often come into play at low levels, and can take a character out of a fight.

    In regard to the morale bonuses, the Feytouched should be able to voluntarily suppress their immunity:
    Although neither of these would apply to Inspire Courage or mind-affecting effects in general (because it's not a resistance to magic), and if they did, it would still take a standard action to suppress the immunity.
    Last edited by ExLibrisMortis; 2020-01-18 at 08:47 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Faily View Post
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keledrath View Post
    Libris: look at your allowed sources. I don't think any of your options were from those.
    My incarnate/crusader. A self-healing crowd-control melee build (ECL 8).
    My Ruby Knight Vindicator barsader. A party-buffing melee build (ECL 14).

  13. - Top - End - #253
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VIII: Way Too Much For Vampirism

    +1 almost being able to ignore your will save starting at level 1 is way better than a feat. If you are optimizing and your buddy rolls a bard you'll rebuild.
    Last edited by Sutr; 2020-01-18 at 09:14 PM.

  14. - Top - End - #254
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VIII: Way Too Much For Vampirism

    Quote Originally Posted by Dimers View Post
    PoeticallyPsyco, my copy of Fiend Folio says mind-affecting rather than enchantment, and the errata document I found online has no Feytouched entry. Can you describe your book's print run or edition?
    My copy also says "immune to all spells and effects with the mind-affecting descriptor."

    The only things covered in the update booklet for FF are Damage Reduction values, costs of crafting Constructs, and the "modernized" swarm subtype. Everything else was left for DMs to modify on their own.

    As much as it hurts me to ding feytouched, I think it's just slightly too much for LA +0. I don't understand why feytouched and half-fey are immune to mind-affecting, since that's not a thing that any fey creature has. At least, I can't think of any Fey that's immune (or even resistant) to mind-affecting effects: maybe there's one out there I overlooked. In my mind, feytouched shouldn't have that immunity, and should therefore have LA +0; but as it stands, I have to vote LA +1 for Feytouched.

    EDIT: I'm changing my vote to LA +0 for Feytouched.
    Last edited by Blue Jay; 2020-01-20 at 01:48 PM.
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VIII: Way Too Much For Vampirism

    Quote Originally Posted by Thurbane View Post
    Sleep, Charm...these and others often come into play at low levels, and can take a character out of a fight.
    To expand on my position -- yes, there are SoL mind-affecting spells right from first level, but they are (in my experience) used nearly exclusively by PCs, not on PCs. It's an issue that arises from the social expectations of the game. DMs are reluctant to tell their players "you have to act charmed now" or "go play some Candy Crush while the other players handle this battle."
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  16. - Top - End - #256
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VIII: Way Too Much For Vampirism

    +1. That immunity is more than worth a level. Net positive stats I am less sold on but most characters would love immunity at level 1. If its all mind effecting that includes fear and demoralization as well which is pretty nice.

  17. - Top - End - #257
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VIII: Way Too Much For Vampirism

    Quote Originally Posted by Dimers View Post
    PoeticallyPsyco, my copy of Fiend Folio says mind-affecting rather than enchantment, and the errata document I found online has no Feytouched entry. Can you describe your book's print run or edition?
    I'm looking at the savage progressions online article... ah, it's Half-Fey that has immunity to Enchantment, which I saw when looking at the transition class. That's my bad.
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VIII: Way Too Much For Vampirism

    I'd say it's not super awesome, but it's nice. I think this is somewhere between Hobgoblins and Planetouched in terms of power - all of which, I remind you, got LA +0. Sure, Charm Person is better than Daylight or Darkness, but Outsider is arguably a bit better than Fey, and mind-affecting immunity is, as people have been saying, a double-edged sword.

    Also, does anyone know what class would fit? Bard would have been much better if it wasn't for not being able to use Inspire Courage on yourself... Sorcerer could work, I guess. Anything else that warrants a major consideration?
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  19. - Top - End - #259
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VIII: Way Too Much For Vampirism

    Warlock makes an effective and flavorful class for Feytouched.
    Quote Originally Posted by Darths & Droids
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    Question Re: The LA-assignment thread VIII: Way Too Much For Vampirism

    Are we all in agreement that you can lower your immunity for beneficial spells?

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VIII: Way Too Much For Vampirism

    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post
    They also qualify for Charming the Arrows, which could be nice for a Cha-based archer.
    Considering they also have a bonus to Dex it seems like a waste of a feat...

    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post
    I'd say it's not super awesome, but it's nice. I think this is somewhere between Hobgoblins and Planetouched in terms of power - all of which, I remind you, got LA +0. Sure, Charm Person is better than Daylight or Darkness, but Outsider is arguably a bit better than Fey, and mind-affecting immunity is, as people have been saying, a double-edged sword.

    Also, does anyone know what class would fit? Bard would have been much better if it wasn't for not being able to use Inspire Courage on yourself... Sorcerer could work, I guess. Anything else that warrants a major consideration?
    Yeah I was about to say this, Hobgoblin, planetouched, and even more so Poison Dusk Lizardforlk. The Poison Dusk in particular is stronger than Feytouched (small 30' land speed, net +2 ability scores, 3 natural attacks, chameleon skin, hold breath, and poison use), I can't see a reasonable argument that the Fyetouched should be +1 unless we are going to go back and adjust these other monsters as well. +0 LA for me.

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VIII: Way Too Much For Vampirism

    Quote Originally Posted by PoeticallyPsyco View Post
    Warlock makes an effective and flavorful class for Feytouched.
    I can't believe this totally slipped my mind, especially since they also get a bonus to Dexterity and that's a very useful stat for many Warlocks in general.
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VIII: Way Too Much For Vampirism

    It seems daft that people are saying that immunity to an entire school of magic is not worth an LA, even if it's one that can be later bought down.

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VIII: Way Too Much For Vampirism

    Quote Originally Posted by Caelestion View Post
    It seems daft that people are saying that immunity to an entire school of magic is not worth an LA, even if it's one that can be later bought down.
    Hmm... would you say that being incapable from benefiting from morale bonuses is outweighed by being immune to detrimental mind-affecting abilities? I suppose it blocks against a lot of nasty effects... I suppose it would also depend on build. If you're a Bard or your party in general employs morale bonuses primarily, then the drawbacks do kind of show up pretty quickly.

    I suppose Heroes' Feast would get around that? Are there any other methods of doing this?
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    Question Re: The LA-assignment thread VIII: Way Too Much For Vampirism

    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post
    Hmm... would you say that being incapable from benefiting from morale bonuses is outweighed by being immune to detrimental mind-affecting abilities? I suppose it blocks against a lot of nasty effects... I suppose it would also depend on build. If you're a Bard or your party in general employs morale bonuses primarily, then the drawbacks do kind of show up pretty quickly.
    Quote Originally Posted by PHB p.177
    Voluntarily Giving up a Saving Throw: A creature can voluntarily forego a saving throw and willingly accept a spellís result. Even a character with a special resistance to magic (for example, an elfís resistance to sleep effects) can suppress this quality.
    Quote Originally Posted by Thurbane View Post
    Are we all in agreement that you can lower your immunity for beneficial spells?
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VIII: Way Too Much For Vampirism

    I've seen multiple references recently to taking only the zeroth level of a Savage Progression WE race and then immediately jumping into a normal class, as with any LA +0 race. However, Savage Species says:
    A monster character using these rules may not multiclass until it completes the full progression in its monster class. This rule keeps characters from gaining the benefits of a monsterís type and then quickly switching to a standard class.
    The web enhancements seem to be just more examples of the mechanic introduced by Savage Species.


    Am I missing something?

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VIII: Way Too Much For Vampirism

    Quote Originally Posted by Lilapop View Post
    I've seen multiple references recently to taking only the zeroth level of a Savage Progression WE race and then immediately jumping into a normal class, as with any LA +0 race. However, Savage Species says:

    The web enhancements seem to be just more examples of the mechanic introduced by Savage Species.


    Am I missing something?
    The book Savage Species (and later Libris Mortis) required characters to take all the levels in their monster class before taking any other levels. However, the online articles Savage Progressions explicitly lack this rule:

    Characters are not required to complete all the levels of a given template class in uninterrupted succession. For example, a character who takes a level of wereboar could then take a level of fighter and a level of rogue (or any other combination of other class levels) before taking another level of wereboar.
    Quote Originally Posted by Darths & Droids
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VIII: Way Too Much For Vampirism

    Can you voluntarily be affected with a Mind-Affecting spell even under the effects of Mind Blank? If so, I'll accept this argument.
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VIII: Way Too Much For Vampirism

    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post
    I'd say it's not super awesome, but it's nice. I think this is somewhere between Hobgoblins and Planetouched in terms of power - all of which, I remind you, got LA +0. Sure, Charm Person is better than Daylight or Darkness, but Outsider is arguably a bit better than Fey, and mind-affecting immunity is, as people have been saying, a double-edged sword.

    Also, does anyone know what class would fit? Bard would have been much better if it wasn't for not being able to use Inspire Courage on yourself... Sorcerer could work, I guess. Anything else that warrants a major consideration?
    Warlock, Crusader, Paladin, Rogue, Dread Necromancer, Spelltheif, Wilder, Binder, Marshal but marshal may be worse than bard. I'm probably missing some charisma caster.

    I disagree that its a double edged sword as Thurbane has shown you can drop your immunity. So you can get the bonuses and there are some good spells with long durations that give morale bonuses so you can work around if morale bonuses are necessary. I think this is only bad in the case of a surprise bard in the party. How often does that happen?

    Mind blank may be different then immunity it follows a spells rules which would be more specific then normal immunity would it not?
    Last edited by Sutr; 2020-01-19 at 08:15 AM. Reason: poster posted while typing added mind blank

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VIII: Way Too Much For Vampirism

    Quote Originally Posted by Thurbane View Post
    Are we all in agreement that you can lower your immunity for beneficial spells?
    Looks like it - the specific example of "an elf's resistance to sleep effects" actually refers to an immunity (according to the race description).
    I'm not happy about that - IMO "immune" should be reserved for things that simply cannot affect you - but I agree that it works by RAW.

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