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  1. - Top - End - #1
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    Default Trans woman playing more TTRPGs can cis woman?

    I have run a few tabletop games for wlw community (because I love them so much and always want to give back) and there is an odd thing I noticed. A lot of these ladies are trans and I wonder why. It's me bringing people like me? It is just because there is something about the trans-girl experience making us more likely to play TTRPGs? Maybe a desire to be someone else in that imaginary word?
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    Default Re: Trans woman playing more TTRPGs can cis woman?

    Out of my experience playing TTRPGS about one eighth of the women I've played with were assigned male at birth. However that's also a sample size of less than ten people.

    The way stats link to reality is weird. If you're in an area with a lot of trans women then it's likely that they'll be more of them playing TTRPGs than if you're in an area with fewer trans women, and other factors also ensure a less even spread. Most likely there's not any kind of strong trend when looking at it from a broader perspective.
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    Default Re: Trans woman playing more TTRPGs can cis woman?

    Speaking from personal experience, my anecdotes match yours, Greenflame. Lots of trans ladies, not as many women who were born in the right body for them.
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    Default Re: Trans woman playing more TTRPGs can cis woman?

    You're not the first person to note this, either. My guess is that it's a combination of two factors: one, as RPGs allow you to play a character who is - usually without argument - treated as whatever gender you, the player, decide they are, which is obviously appealing to trans people. Two, gender stereotypes are still in full force in a lot of places. People who are AFAB may be dissuaded, implicitly or explicitly, from playing D&D and such, while AMAB people may be persuaded to. Therefore, trans women are more likely to play D&D than cis women because AMAB people in general are more likely to play D&D than AFAB people in general.

    In your particular case, you mention that you run games for the "wlw community" (for the uninitiated: lesbian and bisexual women). It should be noted that about 70% of trans women fall into this category, as opposed to about 10% of women in general. This means that your gaming group is more likely to consist of trans women even than the average gaming group - by about seven times.

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    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Re: Trans woman playing more TTRPGs can cis woman?

    I feel like its not just you who are wondering as to why trans love to play TTRPGs. I have seen this topic on a different gaming community and the same question has been made. Maybe because RPG games allow you to be the character that you can't be in real life.

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    Default Re: Trans woman playing more TTRPGs can cis woman?

    I think Unavenger has got it right.

    RPG's appeal to and target males. While the number of "Gamer Girls" is increasing, they are still by far a minority.

    Look to your local game shops to see the gender mix rather than the games you run, which may be unique subsets.
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    Default Re: Trans woman playing more TTRPGs can cis woman?

    Perhaps I am anomalous, but the games I've played in have had many girls, none of which (to my knowledge) were trans. Hell, a random group I scrapped together from students was 3 girls (prospectively 4) and 2 dudes.

    The terrain, I suppose.
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    Halfling in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Trans woman playing more TTRPGs can cis woman?

    Just here to second that "anomaly." It's almost or entirely social. I and all (literally 100%) of the [cis] women and girls in my immediate family and friend circle are interested in RPGs, fantasy, etc. My mother and stepmother were both formerly interested in D&D, but had bad, very stereotypical experiences with openly misogynistic all-male D&D groups when they were younger that soured them on the hobby, while remaining in fantasy in general. What interests are encouraged or discouraged during your formative years has a difficult effect to overcome.

    I also think that Unavenger probably has the right idea, but Scarlet Knight has misinterpreted it. I'm simply adding the anecdote that "people who are AFAB" who weren't "dissuaded, implicitly or explicitly, from playing D&D and such," have, in my experience, all proven equally interested.

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    Default Re: Trans woman playing more TTRPGs can cis woman?

    A greater proportion of trans women in the hobby than in society as a whole? Sure, that's plausible. I don't know if it's true or not, but I wouldn't be particularly surprised.

    More trans women in the hobby than cis women? Given that trans people are only a couple percent of the population, that's quite an extraordinary claim, that calls for similarly extraordinary evidence.
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    Default Re: Trans woman playing more TTRPGs can cis woman?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chronos View Post
    A greater proportion of trans women in the hobby than in society as a whole? Sure, that's plausible. I don't know if it's true or not, but I wouldn't be particularly surprised.

    More trans women in the hobby than cis women? Given that trans people are only a couple percent of the population, that's quite an extraordinary claim, that calls for similarly extraordinary evidence.
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    Default Re: Trans woman playing more TTRPGs can cis woman?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chronos View Post
    A greater proportion of trans women in the hobby than in society as a whole? Sure, that's plausible. I don't know if it's true or not, but I wouldn't be particularly surprised.

    More trans women in the hobby than cis women? Given that trans people are only a couple percent of the population, that's quite an extraordinary claim, that calls for similarly extraordinary evidence.
    I have no trouble believing it without any statistically relevant evidence.

    Why?

    Because it matches exactly my experiences in the fanfic community.

    Eight women, two transmen, everyone wondering why there are no cis men interested in the fandom.

    And I don't think we drove them away with open misandry.

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    Default Re: Trans woman playing more TTRPGs can cis woman?

    Throwing my own experience into the mix, I've seen more LGBTQ women playing TTRPGs in general. Not all of them are trans women, but some are.

    Funnily enough, I've had a similar conversation IRL about why LGBTQ people like TTRPGs, because... well, most of us seem to. I don't know that there is a single reason though.
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    Default Re: Trans woman playing more TTRPGs can cis woman?

    One thing to note is that this probably differs (in degree) depending on whether we are talking about the online and the face to face gaming community. Forums like these (or potentially where the OP might have run their wlw ttrpgs) are safe places for the trans community to be open and forthright about their status.

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    Default Re: Trans woman playing more TTRPGs can cis woman?

    Quote Originally Posted by Willie the Duck View Post
    One thing to note is that this probably differs (in degree) depending on whether we are talking about the online and the face to face gaming community. Forums like these (or potentially where the OP might have run their wlw ttrpgs) are safe places for the trans community to be open and forthright about their status.
    Agreed. That and as mentioned above the "terrain".

    For example, I have "met" 2 trans people in longer running online games, interestingly one Transwoman one Transman (talk about statistics), but (as far as they told us that is) none in "RL Roleplaying". And my groups over the last 15 years included roughly 50 different people, a full 6 of them female. ^^

    Might have to add that I live in an area considered rather conservative for the country I am from.
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    Default Re: Trans woman playing more TTRPGs can cis woman?

    As a trans woman, I agree with Unavenger's take; it's still a male-dominated hobby, and often the women who play it are AMAB and don't realize they're trans until they've gotten into the hobby of TTRPGs.

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    Default Re: Trans woman playing more TTRPGs can cis woman?

    Quote Originally Posted by TruthofRuth View Post
    As a trans woman, I agree with Unavenger's take; it's still a male-dominated hobby, and often the women who play it are AMAB and don't realize they're trans until they've gotten into the hobby of TTRPGs.
    Wow, I guess I did misunderstand. I don't believe TTRPGs lead men to be trans any more than watching broadway shows do & I certainly would not use the word "often".
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    Default Re: Trans woman playing more TTRPGs can cis woman?

    In online games, when I'm aware of the player's genders at all, a woman is much more likely to be a trans woman than AFAB. IRL games, it's difficult to really be sure but I didn't get a trans vibe from any of the girls I played with. I've got a long-running online game with one AFAB and one trans woman (although a second trans women recently joined). The first trans woman actually discovered that part of herself along the way, and we used the game to help her explore that part of herself, and how she felt about being treated as a woman.

    EDIT: I wouldn't suggest that TTRPG's are likely to turn people from AMAB to a trans woman, but if I were to guess at statistics without having them in front of me, my guess would be that it's a particular hobby that makes...exploring the idea of coming out, or exploring the idea of being treated as another gender, easier to deal with without the repercussions that actually coming out as trans might entail. If tabletop community's weren't...for lack of a better phrase, designed/marketed(?) as inherently hostile to AFAB folk, we'd probably also see a lot more trans men in the community too.
    Last edited by AvatarVecna; 2019-12-11 at 12:16 AM.

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    Default Re: Trans woman playing more TTRPGs can cis woman?

    Quote Originally Posted by Greenflame133 View Post
    I have run a few tabletop games for wlw community (because I love them so much and always want to give back) and there is an odd thing I noticed. A lot of these ladies are trans and I wonder why. It's me bringing people like me? It is just because there is something about the trans-girl experience making us more likely to play TTRPGs? Maybe a desire to be someone else in that imaginary word?
    Uhm, i've played with a few women and never met a trans among them.
    BTW, if i'm allowed a wild guess, playing a game in which you could be literally anyone requires a certain degree of open mindness, it's possible that the percentage of potential trans-girl is the same, but there's an higher chance of them overcoming the hardships in the transition among RPG gamers.
    Last edited by Selion; 2019-12-11 at 12:25 PM.

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    Default Re: Trans woman playing more TTRPGs can cis woman?

    I was the only transwoman in my group near as I can tell, and there was other women. Given how rare trans folk are compared to ciswomen, I severely doubt more transwomen are playing than ciswomen total, but more proportionally speaking? Potentially.
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    WolfInSheepsClothing

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    Default Re: Trans woman playing more TTRPGs can cis woman?

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarlet Knight View Post
    Wow, I guess I did misunderstand. I don't believe TTRPGs lead men to be trans any more than watching broadway shows do & I certainly would not use the word "often".
    No-one's suggesting that RPGs cause people to be trans. We're suggesting that AFAB people are likely to be dissuaded from playing them, so a fair fraction of even the female players are not AFAB.

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    Default Re: Trans woman playing more TTRPGs can cis woman?

    Ok, that's how I originally understood you.

    It was the later "often the women who play it are AMAB" from Truthof Ruth that I felt was in error.
    Last edited by Scarlet Knight; 2019-12-12 at 08:48 PM.
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    Default Re: Trans woman playing more TTRPGs can cis woman?

    Quote Originally Posted by AvatarVecna View Post
    In online games, when I'm aware of the player's genders at all, a woman is much more likely to be a trans woman than AFAB. IRL games, it's difficult to really be sure but I didn't get a trans vibe from any of the girls I played with. I've got a long-running online game with one AFAB and one trans woman (although a second trans women recently joined). The first trans woman actually discovered that part of herself along the way, and we used the game to help her explore that part of herself, and how she felt about being treated as a woman.

    EDIT: I wouldn't suggest that TTRPG's are likely to turn people from AMAB to a trans woman, but if I were to guess at statistics without having them in front of me, my guess would be that it's a particular hobby that makes...exploring the idea of coming out, or exploring the idea of being treated as another gender, easier to deal with without the repercussions that actually coming out as trans might entail. If tabletop community's weren't...for lack of a better phrase, designed/marketed(?) as inherently hostile to AFAB folk, we'd probably also see a lot more trans men in the community too.
    It's not the marketing, it's the players. Okay, perhaps it is the marketing, too (do new games still try to give women a minus on strength to make their world with dragons more "realistic"?), but I could tell you some stories about players ... (I include GMs. In fact, the worst person I personally met GMed in that group.)

    The first time I joined an all-male group, I intentionally made a male character as to avoid being treated as a woman. Because that either means misogyny or attempts to hit on me, neither of which I appreciate.

    One of the players still got ... somewhat inappropriately physical. I can't know if he does that with male acquaintances, but I, for my part, do not pat strangers' shoulders.

    However, the GM of that group was a decent enough guy, so I was somewhat lulled into safety, so I made a female character with a (different) male GM next time.

    ... I really shouldn't have.

    There was a lot of misogyny, and though he didn't add much description when he made our characters wake up suddenly naked, I should have taken it as a warning sign - he pulled the same thing again when I was the only woman in the group, and then really heaped on the misogyny.

    After that, I narrowly escaped a misogynist group (GM accidentally sent a mail to me he had intended to only send to the existing all-male group ...) and a misogynist player. (I can only recommend telling every new group that you would like to play an Amazon warrior. The all-women tribe, not the bookseller. As I had calculated, the skeevy dude at once piped up "but only if she's not a man-hater" ... in a game, it should be noted, where Amazons are an official culture and live in peace with other countries, so avoiding group conflict can't have been his motive.)


    So, yeah. Perhaps the marketing is bad, too, but I guarantee you, that wouldn't stop any woman from playing. Nothing, after all, prevents a male GM from saying "Oh, yes, that malus on female characters' strength, don't worry about it, we just don't use that rule. And that incredibly misogynist evil matriarchy where the women wear uncomfortable, skimpy clothes to show status? Yeah, I think that's rather tasteless, too, you won't encounter it in my games. That culture is just normally dressed evil people whose gender roles don't differ from those in the good cultures."

    Interestingly, there are lots of groups with female players here. Now, that could be because the most popular game in my country doesn't have misogynist gameplay mechanics or worldbuilding. However, the only group that maintained a high percentage of female players until it dissolved ... was GMed by a woman. Who decided to kick a player out after he had been extremely inappropriate towards a woman's character ingame.


    Just saying. Oh, the women in the other group didn't complain. They just ... didn't have time anymore. Too demanding job. Et cetera. But one does wonder ...

    (I was never afraid to tell men exactly why I was leaving the group, but I don't think most women are like that.)


    PS: I see you speak about "marketing" of "communities" so perhaps you did mean the players? Eh, well. I will just leave that here to enlighten everyone to the possible reasons of the perceived phenomenon.

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    Halfling in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Trans woman playing more TTRPGs can cis woman?

    A) Can confirm that's 100% consistent with my mom's, stepmom's, and cousin's past experiences (my cousin got back into D&D with better groups, though). I've always played exclusively with my personal friends.

    B) The marketing's actively attempted to assume 50% of PCs were female for a while now, with alternating pronouns in the books, etc, at least back to 3.5, although I remember the designs still being on the objectifying side in the past. No statistical differences, though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Themrys View Post
    So, yeah. Perhaps the marketing is bad, too, but I guarantee you, that wouldn't stop any woman from playing. Nothing, after all, prevents a male GM from saying "Oh, yes, that malus on female characters' strength, don't worry about it, we just don't use that rule. And that incredibly misogynist evil matriarchy where the women wear uncomfortable, skimpy clothes to show status? Yeah, I think that's rather tasteless, too, you won't encounter it in my games. That culture is just normally dressed evil people whose gender roles don't differ from those in the good cultures."
    C) This actually reminds me of how most people I know treat the Monster Manual lore (specifically regarding the "savage humanoids") nowadays. A lot of people still don't care for it, but they just change it in their own campaign settings. I don't think I've ever seen anyone play orcs "by the book," for example.

    D) I've noticed a major resurgence in D&D since 5e with podcasts like Critical Role, Adventure Zone, etc. That's when pretty much everyone I know got into D&D at least once or twice, and those groups have been a whole lot more diverse.

    Quote Originally Posted by AvatarVecna View Post
    we'd probably also see a lot more trans men in the community too.
    E) I know two, both DMs, for what it's worth.

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    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Trans woman playing more TTRPGs can cis woman?

    In my own experience, almost everyone I played with was male (and cis), and the couple women I've played with (plus me) are all cis.

    I'd love to see data about it though.

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    Default Re: Trans woman playing more TTRPGs can cis woman?

    Quote Originally Posted by Anonymouswizard View Post
    Most likely there's not any kind of strong trend when looking at it from a broader perspective.
    Yeah, I think I agree with this.
    Quote Originally Posted by Unavenger View Post
    People who are AFAB may be dissuaded, implicitly or explicitly, from playing D&D and such, while AMAB people may be persuaded to. Therefore, trans women are more likely to play D&D than cis women because AMAB people in general are more likely to play D&D than AFAB people in general.
    Quote Originally Posted by AvatarVecna View Post
    If tabletop community's weren't...for lack of a better phrase, designed/marketed(?) as inherently hostile to AFAB folk, we'd probably also see a lot more trans men in the community too.
    I'm in general agreement with the rest of your posts, but I'm not so sure these specific claims are true. I think they rely on a belief that "AFAB" and "AMAB" are coherent social categories, and that the people within these categories experience similar kinds of socialization. I don't think cis men and trans women necessarily get the same messages.
    Quote Originally Posted by Themrys View Post
    It's not the marketing, it's the players.
    Seconded, unfortunately.
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    Default Re: Trans woman playing more TTRPGs can cis woman?

    Quote Originally Posted by TaiLiu View Post
    I'm in general agreement with the rest of your posts, but I'm not so sure these specific claims are true. I think they rely on a belief that "AFAB" and "AMAB" are coherent social categories, and that the people within these categories experience similar kinds of socialization. I don't think cis men and trans women necessarily get the same messages.
    How do you explain, then, that they appear to behave like coherent social categories in many people's experience?

    I haven't seen it in rpgs - but then, being a woman, I can hardly observe the absence of women in a group I'm in - but I have sure seen it in fanfiction/fandom groups. Lots of women, a couple transmen, that's it. And I think it is especially interesting that that's exactly the people missing from the rpg-groups mentioned above.

    Sure, it is all anecdotal evidence, but then, so is the absence of women in gaming in general - I doubt a scientific study has been done on it.
    Last edited by Themrys; 2019-12-18 at 03:59 PM.

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    Default Re: Trans woman playing more TTRPGs can cis woman?

    Quote Originally Posted by TaiLiu View Post
    Yeah, I think I agree with this.


    I'm in general agreement with the rest of your posts, but I'm not so sure these specific claims are true. I think they rely on a belief that "AFAB" and "AMAB" are coherent social categories, and that the people within these categories experience similar kinds of socialization. I don't think cis men and trans women necessarily get the same messages.
    While I agree with you for the most part, I think it's common for trans people who haven't yet realized they are trans to recieve similar treatment as other people of their assigned sex. They might not internalize that treatment the same way, though.

    I think the argument that previous posters were making is that trans women get into TTRPGs before they even realize they are women, and hence, before others start discouraging them from participating in TTRPGs. Likewise, trans men who have not yet started socially transitioning will likely be given the same sort of discouragement that other AFAB people get (though they would likely internalize it differently).

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    Default Re: Trans woman playing more TTRPGs can cis woman?

    For those looking for data on gender and RPGs, I came across this lit review:

    https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/a08...b8273516e3.pdf.

    It doesn't speak to Cis / Trans but to male /female which is a good place to start.
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    Default Re: Trans woman playing more TTRPGs can cis woman?

    Quote Originally Posted by Themrys View Post
    How do you explain, then, that they appear to behave like coherent social categories in many people's experience?
    Amongst cis people or trans people? I don't think there's ever really a monocausal social phenomena, but for cis people, I think it's partially transphobia. A subtle and watered down version of "you're actually a man / woman."

    As a trans person, I certainly don't think of them as coherent social categories. (Obviously. ) I can't comment on other trans people, but I do know my view's not unique.
    Quote Originally Posted by Themrys View Post
    I haven't seen it in rpgs - but then, being a woman, I can hardly observe the absence of women in a group I'm in - but I have sure seen it in fanfiction/fandom groups. Lots of women, a couple transmen, that's it. And I think it is especially interesting that that's exactly the people missing from the rpg-groups mentioned above.

    Sure, it is all anecdotal evidence, but then, so is the absence of women in gaming in general - I doubt a scientific study has been done on it.
    Apologies, I'm not sure I understand what "it" is - I'm sure I'm just missing something obvious. Do you mind clarifying?
    Quote Originally Posted by 137ben View Post
    While I agree with you for the most part, I think it's common for trans people who haven't yet realized they are trans to recieve similar treatment as other people of their assigned sex. They might not internalize that treatment the same way, though.

    I think the argument that previous posters were making is that trans women get into TTRPGs before they even realize they are women, and hence, before others start discouraging them from participating in TTRPGs. Likewise, trans men who have not yet started socially transitioning will likely be given the same sort of discouragement that other AFAB people get (though they would likely internalize it differently).
    Part of my argument's that that's actually not necessarily true. Like, lots of us on this forum are neurodivergent. But we display that neurodivergency before we ever realize it or have it diagnosed, and people pick up on that - that's why so many of us faced ableism as children for acting weird or talking weird or whatnot. Sometimes gay kids face homophobia for being gay, and, again, people notice that and act accordingly. They can even act accordingly even if they themselves cannot name why they're acting accordingly! A schoolyard bully can be ableist to an autistic student - that ableism is not contingent on either the bully or the student knowing that the student's autistic.

    I know of lots of trans women who say that as trans girls (whether they knew or not), they weren't treated similarly to cis boys. Probably the most famous account is by Laverne Cox, who made a short Twitter thread about it. It seems strange to discount these accounts by arguing for AMAB/AFAB coherency.
    Last edited by TaiLiu; 2019-12-18 at 10:30 PM. Reason: forgot the "/" in a tag
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    Default Re: Trans woman playing more TTRPGs can cis woman?

    I mean most actual table games I've run had one cis player so I guess I've seen more trans than cis women, but I've also seen more cis women at my table than cis men.
    Last edited by Xihirli; 2019-12-18 at 10:31 PM.
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