You're dead. Now what?

[Tanarii]

Let's say you're a player that strongly believes that if you haven't gained levels (or character points, or whatever) through play, you haven't earned them. And you're playing a game where the main party is far enough ahead on the power curve that you'll get massacred if you bring a brand new character to the table. And you just invested a year of your life in the game.

And you just die. Heroically, totally in character, as a consequence of your own decisions. Resurrection isn't a possibility. The DM tells you to bring a character of the same level / point total next session ...

Do you:
A) bite the bullet and accept.
B) negotiate for a lower level / point total that makes your character able to contribute, but eases the guilt somewhat.
C) tell them no thanks, and quit the game.
D) same as C, but yearn for the days when henchmen would be leveling along with your main character. Just in case.
E) other. (egs - Flip the table, Nerd Rage, Vent on Forums, steal the players for your own campaign, meditate on a solution, eat a Banana.)

[MarkVIIIMarc]

Let's say you're a player that strongly believes that if you haven't gained levels (or character points, or whatever) through play, you haven't earned them. And you're playing a game where the main party is far enough ahead on the power curve that you'll get massacred if you bring a brand new character to the table. And you just invested a year of your life in the game.

And you just die. Heroically, totally in character, as a consequence of your own decisions. Resurrection isn't a possibility. The DM tells you to bring a character of the same level / point total next session ...

Do you:
A) bite the bullet and accept.
B) negotiate for a lower level / point total that makes your character able to contribute, but eases the guilt somewhat.
C) tell them no thanks, and quit the game.
D) same as C, but yearn for the days when henchmen would be leveling along with your main character. Just in case.
E) other. (egs - Flip the table, Nerd Rage, Vent on Forums, steal the players for your own campaign, meditate on a solution, eat a Banana.)

What bullet do do have to bite by bringing a character with the same level /xp? The bullit of guilt because you got a pc killed?

FWIW, to me it sounds like the DM liked your actions and really wants you to play?

[False God]

E: Other. We're gonna have a montage! Bring a level 1 character and then role-play with the other players about how they trained you to be great in a short amount of time.

[Kaptin Keen]

E: Other. We're gonna have a montage! Bring a level 1 character and then role-play with the other players about how they trained you to be great in a short amount of time.

This is actually great. Earn your levels the easy way. Detail all the embarassing moments, and the grief, all the walking up the 9.999 steps to the summit viewpoint (which is always entirely covered in cloud) carrying the yoke of yak's milk. And then start at a level that's relevant.

Or roleplay coming back from the dead .. in RPG's, death really is an abstraction - it's the end of the game for one set of numerical stats - now go roll another. But the game is narrative (among other things) and building a narrative around being too stubborn to die, tricking the boatman, winning back your soul from the devil, finding the way back through the dark forest, or simply being told by God what are you doing here? You're not supposed to die for years! Get back out there, you lazy git, you have work to do!

[Eldan]

If making a powerful character "unearned" feels wrong to you, are there maybe any companions, friends, mercenaries, hirelings, etc. that your group brought along on adventures before that you might negotiate with the DM to take over?

[Pelle]

B

or E) if the campaign structure allows for it, have the other players also make a new character and maintain a pool of characters to choose from (including the "main" party) depending on who shows up for sessions etc...

[Lord Torath]

E: Create two characters, one for play and one for back-up, both at the level your DM specifies. Each time your main PC gains a level, give one to your back-up character. Then, if and when your main character dies, you have a back-up that has grown "organically" rearing and ready to go. Just make sure you follow your DM's rules for gaining magic and treasure for your back-up guy so he's got the same amount as if you created him all at once at the level your DM specifies. (If your DM says "a character created at level X gets this much gold, magic, and weird stuff", then when your back-up character hits level X, it should have that much gold, magic, and weird stuff).

Also, eat a banana.

[Imbalance]

Let's say you're a player that strongly believes that if you haven't gained levels (or character points, or whatever) through play, you haven't earned them.

Just gonna stop right there. First, this is an unreasonable commitment on any player's part. Second, just because the player hasn't earned the experience doesn't mean the character is not experienced - don't sell your avatar short. Otherwise, your solution is to have solo sessions for this character to snuff up from newb to par, but bring a banana in case your DM is unwilling to bend to your proclivity.

[Jay R]

Either

1. give up my strong beliefs that there is only one fun way to play, and play the DM's game as it's designed, or
2. thank the DM for his offer and go look for a game out there that matches all of my requirements.

[farothel]

Just gonna stop right there. First, this is an unreasonable commitment on any player's part. Second, just because the player hasn't earned the experience doesn't mean the character is not experienced - don't sell your avatar short. Otherwise, your solution is to have solo sessions for this character to snuff up from newb to par, but bring a banana in case your DM is unwilling to bend to your proclivity.

I agree here. While the XP is earned by the character, I feel it's also earned by the player. It's you who spend all the time playing the character, so if he dies, you shouldn't dismiss all that time invested.

Another thing I do as a GM is let the new character start at the lowest level of the party. Since I often GM when not all players are present, I have experience levels that can vary. Since I GM games where it's not that much of a problem (things like alternity or Star Trek you can still be useful even if you have less XP than the rest of the party), so depeding on the situation you can either take the lowest XP or take an avereage and let the player start there.

I do force the player to make a basic character and only then use the XP to level up to whatever level is decided. No matter what the XP level, on that there is no discussion (of course, my players know in advance what I plan to do in these cases).

[CombatBunny]

Either

1. give up my strong beliefs that there is only one fun way to play, and play the DM's game as it's designed, or
2. thank the DM for his offer and go look for a game out there that matches all of my requirements.

I’m usually on the players side, because most of the responsibility falls in the GMs hands.

In this case though, it seems that the GM is being reasonable and maybe you are simply struggling to accept your character’s death or there is an expectations discrepancy.

As Jay R mentioned, either accept death as a possibility or find another group where the table has an agreement of no character death or…

¡Start your own table with blackjack and exotic dancers!

I don't want to be harsh, but those strong beliefs sound more like a tantrum.

[Reversefigure4]

I've never seen this behaviour in play - anyone else?

Even when a game starts at first level, your character is often above the average, having already in backstory done enough to earn that Fighter 1 level (unlike the NPC shopkeeper). So the problem is there right from the beginning, and that's before any game that starts characters above the minimum level. Many games assume a high level of competence from Game 1 (Spirit of the Century, a pulp game, flat out tells you that your starting character is already the best Pilot/Scientist/Fighter in the world and is well recognised for it).

[jjordan]

Let's say you're a player that strongly believes that if you haven't gained levels (or character points, or whatever) through play, you haven't earned them. And you're playing a game where the main party is far enough ahead on the power curve that you'll get massacred if you bring a brand new character to the table. And you just invested a year of your life in the game.

And you just die. Heroically, totally in character, as a consequence of your own decisions. Resurrection isn't a possibility. The DM tells you to bring a character of the same level / point total next session ...

Do you:
A) bite the bullet and accept.
B) negotiate for a lower level / point total that makes your character able to contribute, but eases the guilt somewhat.
C) tell them no thanks, and quit the game.
D) same as C, but yearn for the days when henchmen would be leveling along with your main character. Just in case.
E) other. (egs - Flip the table, Nerd Rage, Vent on Forums, steal the players for your own campaign, meditate on a solution, eat a Banana.)

Maybe go the Traveller route and have a mini-session with the DM where you build the character by walking it through the leveling process, dealing with each level in a backstory sort of fashion? It's a compromise.

Maybe you propose some alternate way to participate.
Come back as a ghost. Your spirit can't rest until you help the party accomplish the task before them. Or you've left a task unfinished and need the party to help you accomplish it. A ghost character could be very interesting. Or a revenant.

Have your character brought back by a patron. You're now a warlock with an agenda and a very demanding patron.

Maybe your character is the patron. You've found a willing patsy and are sharing their body with them. You bring your skills and abilities and some HP to the mix. Your new combined character isn't quite as strong as the rest of the party but isn't a very low level character, you maintain some continuity, and you get to play two characters. "Right, I'll take care of the demon." "Are you crazy?" "We can do this." "We bloody well can't!" "Trust me." "I didn't sign up to get my face ripped off by some abyssal horror!" "We're not going to get our face ripped off. Probably. Almost certainly. Look, hero up and let's do this!"

Have your character inexplicably come back to life suffering from memory loss, occasional hallucinations, and nightmares. Is it really your character, or is it someone else occupying the body? Does someone have the best interests of the party at heart? There's a lot of story to be found in this.


Or bite the bullet and take the opportunity to bring in a character that more closely ties in to some of the campaign and backstory.

[Drache64]

Let's say you're a player that strongly believes that if you haven't gained levels (or character points, or whatever) through play, you haven't earned them. And you're playing a game where the main party is far enough ahead on the power curve that you'll get massacred if you bring a brand new character to the table. And you just invested a year of your life in the game.

And you just die. Heroically, totally in character, as a consequence of your own decisions. Resurrection isn't a possibility. The DM tells you to bring a character of the same level / point total next session ...

Do you:
A) bite the bullet and accept.
B) negotiate for a lower level / point total that makes your character able to contribute, but eases the guilt somewhat.
C) tell them no thanks, and quit the game.
D) same as C, but yearn for the days when henchmen would be leveling along with your main character. Just in case.
E) other. (egs - Flip the table, Nerd Rage, Vent on Forums, steal the players for your own campaign, meditate on a solution, eat a Banana.)

is there an close level NPC you can take over? does that fit your requirement?

[Imbalance]

Continued spitballing, but what if your new starter character becomes the escort mission? Would it be an acceptable means of gaining heaps of experience via osmosis and PC candor if your role is that of the young prince, or the docile mensch, or the aboriginal guide, or the oblivious key to some prophecy, at least for a time? That way, the party's foremost task is your protection along a perilous journey, at the end of which they receive a great reward along with your level equalization and pledge of aid in future endeavors. Your truncated learning curve can easily be attributed to the time spent in the company of masters, even though your participation in combat encounters will be minimally supportive at best and a liability at worst. Maybe the path ends in a test of your mettle that awards you a mantling of sorts - "only the pure of heart may receive these gifts" or whatever.

Point is there should be a way to get back up to speed that won't tarnish your sense of accomplishment or railroad the campaign. After all, the party could just as easily fail or decide to sell you to the Drow, but then they'd be short an ally, which is definitely what they'll be if you give up.

[Jorren]

Either

1. give up my strong beliefs that there is only one fun way to play, and play the DM's game as it's designed, or
2. thank the DM for his offer and go look for a game out there that matches all of my requirements.

Yeah, pretty much my answer as well.

The notion that you should start a replacement character at a lower level was always an odd one to me. Even if you accept the notion (somewhat dubious in my opinion, given that rpgs are not typically a competitive endeavor) that you should 'earn' your levels, I believe that you could argue that you already did so with the deceased character.

[Reversefigure4]

The notion that you should start a replacement character at a lower level was always an odd one to me.

Depending on the circumstances, it can get hard to introduce a new high-level character in a way that makes sense for the story and verisimilitude.

"Yes, the city always had this 13th level Paladin in it, he just hasn't helped with the demon crisis you've spent the last 5 levels dealing with, for... some... reason"

A 16th level character appears near the party while they are on a private demi-plane they've had to track down a magic artefact to get into. How... surprisingly fortunate, and terribly unlikely?

It can also be hard to integrate a character into the existing party dynamics. "We band of brothers have united together since that fire at the Inn, forged together after we slew the Iron Goblin. And then there's this wizard that we picked up on the side of the road yesterday. He looked trustworthy."

Most of these are pretty easily dealt with - it's a matter of the GM and the player working together on a backstory that makes sense ("Retroactively, the Paladin was on the other side of the city at the time, warding off the demon lord attack"). But it can strain credulity that the party have slogged through challenges to reach their high-level, while Wizard Lucky just sort of turns up with them.

I don't think it remotely justifies the increased difficulty of making players play a low-level character who needs to earn their levels back (particularly because this leads to death spiraling, annoyed players, and still strains verisimilitude and requires a storyline reason - why are the party teaming up with somebody who can't keep up), but there is a line of logic behind where it comes from.

[Delta]

I find it hard to answer the question because it's kind of weirdly phrased.

"Let's assume you're someone who really hates A? What would you do if you had to do A, B or C?" Is just... nothing anyone can give a reasonable answer to.

Personally? I'd just play on with a similar levelled character because I wouldn't mind that at all.

[Jorren]

Depending on the circumstances, it can get hard to introduce a new high-level character in a way that makes sense for the story and verisimilitude.

"Yes, the city always had this 13th level Paladin in it, he just hasn't helped with the demon crisis you've spent the last 5 levels dealing with, for... some... reason"

A 16th level character appears near the party while they are on a private demi-plane they've had to track down a magic artefact to get into. How... surprisingly fortunate, and terribly unlikely?

It can also be hard to integrate a character into the existing party dynamics. "We band of brothers have united together since that fire at the Inn, forged together after we slew the Iron Goblin. And then there's this wizard that we picked up on the side of the road yesterday. He looked trustworthy."

Most of these are pretty easily dealt with - it's a matter of the GM and the player working together on a backstory that makes sense ("Retroactively, the Paladin was on the other side of the city at the time, warding off the demon lord attack"). But it can strain credulity that the party have slogged through challenges to reach their high-level, while Wizard Lucky just sort of turns up with them.

I don't think it remotely justifies the increased difficulty of making players play a low-level character who needs to earn their levels back (particularly because this leads to death spiraling, annoyed players, and still strains verisimilitude and requires a storyline reason - why are the party teaming up with somebody who can't keep up), but there is a line of logic behind where it comes from.

The reason it strains verisimilitude is a function of the level system, not the fact that the group is bringing along someone highly experienced to join them. I have rarely heard this objection from people playing any game besides D&D. Even so, the justification most commonly heard for starting out a new character at a lower level is punishment, not verisimilitude.

[Droid Tony]

Odd question.....but if the player was stuck in this mindset: E

E: How about make a level equivalent character? Like sure the player is suck with the self rule that they MUST start as a first level character....but how about just pick a powerful race to balance things out? Be something like a 1st level fighter ogre or troll or whatever?


Though it might be best just to drop the ''must earn things" idea too.

[Tanarii]

To give a personal answer as a player, I'm someone that generally feels XP/points are earned on a specific character and lost if that character dies, not earned by the player for the specific table any character they might bring said table. But I'd be willing to bend on it to play in a specific game. I'd probably go with B, and ask to come in at the minimum level/point total I felt I could still be an effective contributor. I've yet to have it come up because I mostly run games, and when I play it's usually in official play.

Running D&D campaigns, it depends on the campaign type. An open table campaign (a la official play) each character gains power completely independent. But of course players can run more than one. In single party campaigns, I usually offer a replacement character at the minimum effective level. (e.g. in 5e, that'd be the bottom of the current party tier of play.)

E: Other. We're gonna have a montage! Bring a level 1 character and then role-play with the other players about how they trained you to be great in a short amount of time.

lol I love it. I just finished reading some archive of Oots, and Elan's montage training for the Dashing Swordsman prestige class came to mind.

Just gonna stop right there. First, this is an unreasonable commitment on any player's part.

Not really. It's not that common nowadays, but it's still out there, to one degree or another. There are several posters on this forum alone that have some variation of the belief.

I find it hard to answer the question because it's kind of weirdly phrased.

"Let's assume you're someone who really hates A? What would you do if you had to do A, B or C?" Is just... nothing anyone can give a reasonable answer to.

Not claiming there is a reasonable answer. I was curious what people's response would be one two levels. The belief itself, and if anyone accepted the belief, ways to either stay with it or reasonable bend it.

[Bohandas]

Monster character who doesn't have any levels but is the appropriate LA/ECL/CR to match the party

[Koo Rehtorb]

Why can't you play a substantially weaker character? If the game is designed with this as even a remote possibility you should need much less xp to level than they do and should probably catch up to one or two levels behind relatively quickly. Start off as the apprentice/squire/caddie and grow into your own as you're thrown in the deep end.

[Kane0]

Hmm, B.

10char

[Quertus]

I would either a) choose an existing character at that power level; b) choose a character who can create a pawn to play at that power level; or c) run a brand new "monstrous" character at that power level (I'm a Trompe L'oeil who just got painted yesterday, as a silly example).

Or possibly d) run a 1st level character who wouldn't just die.

[Leon]

A.

As much as i get attached to characters i also always have many idea's i want to try out usually based off a bit of cool art ive found. maybe also explore the possibility of staying around as a Ghost since if its far enough along the character would have goals that hadn't been achieved and give enough reason to not leave yet.

[Unavenger]

Given that I'm never going to be in that position, I guess it's easier to think of what I'd do as a DM if a player felt that way. D&D 3.5, as well as most of the systems my friends and I have designed, help in this matter by having a built-in "Underdog" rule, whether it's 3.5's higher XP for low-level characters or [my friend's rules-heavier version of Roll for Shoes]' rule that gives you a level up on all-6s normally and on all-3+ if one or more of your allies knows at least twice as many skills of greater than first level than you, and also knows at least four such skills, plus all of your allies know at least two more skills than you, plus the difficulty roll for the check was higher than any roll you can make, even on a different skill.

In this case, it's relatively easy to sling an EL 10 encounter at three level 13s and a level 1, or have the unskilled character grab a bow and very quickly learn every ranged attack skill (while missing a lot). But what both of these methods have in common is that the character in question is very squishy, and isn't really contributing.

Another possibility is to have a split-ish encounter. The city is overrun with weaksauce zombies, and there's now vampires at the gate and it's probably a good idea to keep them out of the city. Perhaps you three could get on that, while the rookie fights through the zombies to get to the sun tower (did I mention we have one of those?) and point it at the vampires.

Alternatively alternatively, running the character through a very quick solo session where they have to deal with a bunch of stuff with a high experience:lethality ratio. Although they might eventually get bored of disarming approximately many Power Word: Stun traps...

[zinycor]

A).

Someone else is running the game, if you want the game to be ran as you would like. Then you run it.

[King of Nowhere]

Let's say you're a player that strongly believes that if you haven't gained levels (or character points, or whatever) through play, you haven't earned them

And you're playing a game where the main party is far enough ahead on the power curve that you'll get massacred if you bring a brand new character to the table.

And you just invested a year of your life in the game.

And you just die.

Resurrection isn't a possibility.

this... is a very, very, VERY specific set of requirements.

First of all the player being so unwilling to compromise. and he would only accept to play a weak character that would stand no chance with the rest of the party.

and then the game going on for so long without a glitch, and without this unwillingness to compromise being challenged earlier.

and then you die and can't resurrect. very rare, this one. nobody wants to play a campaign where they could lose the character they invested so much time and effort into. so normally a campaign either has resurrection available, or you can't really die, or it's intended to be far shorter.

personally, though, i'd look for some other way to get back. we discussed a similar proposition in my party (resurrection gets harder and harder, there would be no big deal bringing in a new character but it would be hard to insert into the party, and i'm very fond of my current character). we are more inclined to have the wizard make a sort of sentient golem with some of my most iconic belongings amnd powered by my life force . that way, i could still use basically the same character

[Anymage]

If it's a point based game, most of those have tighter power curves than level based games do. Your character may not be as strong as everybody else, but they can still find a niche. If you're really gung-ho about coming in weaker, you can try to work through that.

In a level based game? Unless you have a hankering for an old school Gygaxian thing (which includes harsh death penalties, but also so much more that you'll want to ensure the rest of your table is also into), it's easier to have someone who can match the team come in. Coming in at first level is just more hassle for everybody, yourself included.