Support the GITP forums on Patreon
Help support GITP's forums (and ongoing server maintenance) via Patreon
Results 1 to 6 of 6
  1. - Top - End - #1
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    NecromancerGuy

    Join Date
    Jul 2016

    Default I Keep Tinkering with 4e merge 5e

    I canít help myself with the idea of trying to merge 5E and 4E together. Using the simplicity and bounded accuracy system of 5e but use the monsters, powers, and class system of 4e.

    I just wanted to share my feelings. I really enjoyed 4e both Dming and as a player. I only wished more d&d veterans liked it too.

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Colossus in the Playground
     
    JNAProductions's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Location
    Fighting Demons!

    Default Re: I Keep Tinkering with 4e merge 5e

    I like it. And I wholly support this idea!
    I have a LOT of Homebrew!

    Current Avatar by Elder Tsofu, who is awesome!

    Spoiler: Former Avatars
    Show
    Spoiler: Avatar (Not In Use) By Professor Gnoll!
    Show


    Spoiler: Avatar (Not In Use) By Cdr. Fallout!
    Show

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    NecromancerGuy

    Join Date
    Jul 2016

    Default Re: I Keep Tinkering with 4e merge 5e

    Quote Originally Posted by JNAProductions View Post
    I like it. And I wholly support this idea!
    Well someone here has already done a lot of the math. It is just a matter of finding a starting point. There is ton of 4e content to go through.

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Colossus in the Playground
     
    JNAProductions's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Location
    Fighting Demons!

    Default Re: I Keep Tinkering with 4e merge 5e

    Whereís the math?
    I have a LOT of Homebrew!

    Current Avatar by Elder Tsofu, who is awesome!

    Spoiler: Former Avatars
    Show
    Spoiler: Avatar (Not In Use) By Professor Gnoll!
    Show


    Spoiler: Avatar (Not In Use) By Cdr. Fallout!
    Show

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    NecromancerGuy

    Join Date
    Jul 2016

    Default Re: I Keep Tinkering with 4e merge 5e

    Here is the quote

    Quote Originally Posted by Yakk View Post
    Because this is fun, I have made another stab at it.

    The spoiler contains the design notes, math and justifications.

    Spoiler
    Show

    Monster and PC HP in 4e grows with (Level+3) roughly.

    So a level 1 monster has half the HP of a level 5 monster, and 5 has half the HP of a level 13 monster, which has half the HP of a level 29 monster.

    +1 to hit/defend is worth about +10% HP/damage. In standard D&D 4e, that dominates over HP/damage of monsters.

    Now, if we want to rework D&D 4e to be more linear (aka bounded accuracy), and we are willing to pull out MM3 on a business card on monsters, we can rework how player damage scales as well as monsters.

    To keep one thing contant, we'll go with player HP.

    Monster damage should scale, roughly, with player HP, to maintain threat. (This isn't quite true, because higher level players heal better and recover from death better, but we can retrofit that in later).

    So monster damage should scale, roughly, with Level+3, and double from 1:5, 5:13 and 13:29.

    While we are at it, we cap stats at 20 in Heroic, +1 per tier after that, and +2 if you get the epic destinies.

    A d8 weapon basic attack with 18 stat, 14 secondary deals 10.5 damage at level 1. You also get a 2[W]+stat+stat attack 1/encounter. Encounters last ~4 rounds. 1/4 encounters you get a daily attack for 3[W]+stat+stat, and 1/2 encounters an action point.

    So your per-encounter budget at level 1 is 10.5 * 4.5 + 4.5 + 9/4 = 54 damage. Call it 50.

    If we scale with your HP, we get damage budgets of:
    L1: 50
    L5: 100
    L13: 200
    L29: 400

    on a per-encounter basis.

    Under RAW, a level 29 character has a 9[W], 7[W], 6[W] and 5[W] daily, a 5[W], 4[W], 3[W]*2 encounter, and 2[W] at-wills (all +stat+stat say, and stats are +5+5).

    That is 19[W] daily extra dice, 7[W] encounter extra dice, and 4.5 * (2[W]+10) at-will dice.
    85.5+31.5+21.375 = 138.375

    You see the gap; we wanted 400 budget, and we got 400.

    If we upgrade at-wills to 3[W], and other abilities to from k[W] to (2k-1)[W], throw in a +3 enhancement damage bonus, we get:

    17[W]+13[W]+11[W]+9[W] daily, 9[W]+7[W]+5[W]*2 encounter, 3[W] at-will

    4.5*13 (static) + 4.5*3*4.5 (at-will [W]) + 14[W] encounter extra + 38[W] daily extra
    119.25 + 63 + 42.75
    =225
    That is still half of what we need.

    Ok, think outside the box. A +X weapon now doesn't add X damage, instead it lets you reroll all damage dice that are X or lower from your power or weapon (not counting max rolls).

    +X now increases your damage by X/2 per die. It can stack with Brutal.

    Dice over a 4 round fight then sum to:
    3*4.5 + 14 + 38/4 = 37. 45 static damage. 6 damage per die. 267 total damage. Still not enough.

    Add your level to one hit on your turn? That's +120 for 387 total damage, and +4 at level 1. There we go.

    ---

    Try this at level 13.

    At-wills do 2[W]. Encounter powers do 3[W] 3[W] 5[W] 5[W]. Daily powers do 5[W] 7[W] 9[W]. So you deal 2*4.5 + 8 + (3+5+7)/4 =~ 21 [W] per combat.

    With a +1 weapon (5 damage per [W]), 5 primary/3 secondary stat (4.5*8), that comes to 141 damage.

    Add your level once/round for +52 or 193 damage.

    ---

    Level 5. At-wills do [W]. Encounter powers do 3[W] 3[W]. Daily powers do 5[W] 7[W]. So you deal 1*4.5 + 4 + (4+6)/4 = 11 [W] per combat.

    With a +1 weapon (5 damage per [W]), 4 primary/3 secondary stat (4.5*7), that comes to 86.5 damage.

    Add your level once/round for +20 gives you 106.5 damage.

    ---

    So it works. Feat-less 4e now looks like:

    * Your stats are capped at 20.
    * Powers that deal XdY damage now deal (2X-1)dY damage (double dice, minus 1).
    * At-wills upgrade to 2 dice at level 11 instead of 21. At 21 they upgrade to 3 dice.
    * Once per round on your turn, you deal an extra (Level) damage to one target.
    * Magic items scale up to +3 instead of +6.
    * Magic weapons/implements do not add to damage directly. Instead, they make your damage dice "brutal".
    ** If you have a +1 weapon, reroll all weapon damage dice that are 1s until they aren't 1s.
    ** If you have a +2 weapon, reroll all weapon damage dice that are 1s or 2s until they aren't 1s or 2s.
    ** Etc for +3 weapon, or implement.
    ** Trust me, this is usually better than raw +1 damage
    * You have a Talent attribute.
    ** Level 1: +3
    ** Level 5: +4
    ** Level 13: +5
    ** Level 29: +6
    * This bonus replaces "Level/2" on attacks.
    * This bonus replaces *both* training *and* level/2 on skill checks. Untrained skills get *nothing*
    * One half this bonus applies to your Heavy Armor AC and Non-AC defences (so +1 to +3)
    ** (Half keeps up with bumps light armor characters get from higher stats)
    ** The alternative, half on light and full on heavy, makes lower level monsters never hit you

    Now lets build an XP system based off this.

    If we arrange for 5 tiers of monster like this:

    Peon: 25 HP ("below L 1 threat") +X ATK, +0 DEF
    Grunt: 50 HP ("L 1 threat") +X+3 ATK, +2 DEF
    Heroic: 100 HP ("L 5 threat") +X+6 ATK, +4 DEF
    Paragon: 200 HP ("L 13 threat") +X+9 ATK, +6 DEF
    Epic: 400 HP ("L 29 threat") +X+12 ATK, +8 DEF
    Beyond: 800 HP ("Beyond L 30 threat") +X+15 ATK, +10 DEF

    Suppose we want to start out with the even-tier L1 foe being hit 60% of the time by a PC, and hitting the tank 40% of the time (which means ~50-60% on a non-tank). That means +7 ATK and 19 AC on the monster.

    Peon: +4 ATK, 17 AC, 15 DEF
    Grunt: +7 ATK, 19 AC, 17 DEF - L1
    Heroic: +10 ATK, 21 AC, 19 DEF - L5
    Paragon: +13 ATK, 23 AC, 21 DEF - L13
    Epic: +16 ATK, 25 AC, 23 DEF - L29
    Beyond: +19 ATK, 27 AC, 25 DEF

    Sword, Scale, Shield fighter. 18 str, 20 at level 8, 22 at level 21. +1 magic item at level 2, +2 at level 11, +3 at level 21.

    Fighter Stats:
    Code:
    L1:  18 str +0 gear +10 ATK  20 AC   12.5 damage    9+ hit   13+ be hit (11+ backline) (30 4 turn damage)
    L5:  19 str +1 gear +12 ATK  22 AC   25 damage      9+ hit   12+ be hit (9+ backline)  (60 4 turn damage)
    L13: 21 str +2 gear +15 ATK  23 AC   50 damage      8+ hit   10+ be hit (7+ backline)  (130 4 turn damage)
    L29: 22 str +3 gear +18 ATK  25 AC  100 damage      7+ hit   9+ be hit  (6+ backline)  (280 4 turn damage)
    Backline Stats:
    Code:
    L1:  20 HP  17 AC, hit on 11+ (50%).  For 5 turns: 8 DPH
    L5:  40 HP  19 AC, hit on 9+  (60%).  For 5 turns: 13 DPH
    L13: 80 HP  20 AC, hit on 7+  (70%).  For 5 turns: 23 DPH
    L29: 160 HP 22 AC, hit on 6+  (75%).  For 5 turns: 43 DPH
    Peon: 15 HP 4 damage, 4 ATK, 17 AC, 15 DEF

    Based off 4 rounds to kill, and 5 rounds to kill PC, we get:
    Grunt: 30 HP 8 damage, 7 ATK, 19 AC, 17 DEF
    Heroic: 60 HP 13 damage, 10 ATK, 21 AC, 19 DEF
    Paragon: 130 HP 23 damage, 13 ATK, 23 AC, 21 DEF
    Epic: 280 HP 43 damage, 16 ATK, 25 AC, 23 DEF

    but, as we control the XP and hence encounter building, we can tweak this.

    Code:
    Peon:     10 HP,  5 damage,  4 ATK, 17 AC, 15 DEF
    Grunt:    25 HP, 10 damage,  7 ATK, 19 AC, 17 DEF
    Heroic:   50 HP, 15 damage, 10 ATK, 21 AC, 19 DEF
    Paragon: 100 HP, 25 damage, 13 ATK, 23 AC, 21 DEF
    Epic:    250 HP, 40 damage, 16 ATK, 25 AC, 23 DEF
    Beyond:  500 HP, 70 damage, 19 ATK, 27 AC, 25 DEF
    These numbers are more round.
    Code:
             HP*D   ATK+AC-21    
    Peon:      50      0        
    Grunt:    250      5
    Heroic:   750     10
    Paragon: 2500     15
    Epic:   10000     20
    Beyond  35000     25
    Each +5 ATK/AC is worth about x1.25 HP*D, give or take.

    Code:
             POW
    Peon:       50
    Grunt:     312
    Heroic:   1172
    Paragon:  4883
    Epic:    24414
    Beyond: 106811
    Now we want our XP system to be linear. That means 2 monsters of 5 XP should be as tough as 1 monster of 10 XP.

    If the 10 XP monster has 2x the HP and Damage of the 5 XP monsters, it deals 33% more damage than the one monster.

    Similarly, if a 50 XP monster deals 5x the damage and has 5x the HP of a 10 XP monster, then the 50 XP monster deals 25 units while the 10 XPs deal 15 -- 67% more for the big one. To match the 5x HP/damage monster, you need ~6.5 1x monsters.

    The 5x monster has 25x the POW, but should have 6.5x the XP. If POW(x)=kx^2, and XP(x)=a x^b, and XP(5)=6.5 XP(1)

    a 5^b = 6.5 a 1^b
    5^b = 6.5
    b =~ 1.16

    Now, (x^2)^0.58 = x^1.16, so we can take the 1.72th root of the above POW values to get a first run at XP.

    Code:
             POW     XP
    Peon:       50   9.7
    Grunt:     312   28.0
    Heroic:   1172   60.3
    Paragon:  4883  137.9
    Epic:    24414  350.6
    Beyond: 106811  825.3
    Rounding we get:

    Code:
    Peon:     1 XP
    Grunt:    3 XP
    Heroic:   6 XP
    Paragon: 14 XP
    Epic:    35 XP
    Beyond:  80 XP
    Now for budget. A full budget of even level foes against a baseline hero should die in ~80% of the time it takes to kill the hero.

    We can work out the POW at each 2x HP point.
    Code:
          HP   DAM  ATK  AC  HP*D  ATK+AC-21   POW       XP
    L1:   20  12.5  10   17   250   6          327        3
    L5:   40  25    12   19  1000  10          1563       7
    L13:  80  50    15   20  4000  14          7472      18
    L29: 160  100   18   22 16000  19          37358     45
    We can then linearize.

    Heroic Budget: Level +2 XP.
    Paragon and Epic Budget: Level*2-8 XP.

    That lines up with the above points, except at L 29 where it gives them a 50 XP budget. Epic characters can take it.

    TL;DR, I have attempted to emulate 5e power curve in 4e again. Here is the result:

    Monster business card math:

    There are 5 tiers of monsters. Each tier bump is a significant power swing. Use Grunt/Peon for low-Heroic foes or to replace Minions. Use Heroic for mid-high Heroic foes, Paragon for Paragon, Epic for Epic, and Beyond for L30+ foes.

    Code:
             XP       HP           Dam        ATK     DEF
                   L   M   H    L   M   H
    Peon:     1    8  10  12    4   5   6     +4      15
    Grunt:    3   20  25  30    8  10  12     +7      17
    Heroic:   6   40  50  60   12  15  18     +10     19
    Paragon: 14   80 100 120   20  25  30     +13     21
    Epic:    35  200 250 300   30  40  50     +15     23
    Beyond:  80  400 500 600   50  70  90     +19     25
    DEF is average of Will/Reflex/Fort.

    Use +2 AC above DEF for most monsters. Soldiers get +4, Brutes/Artillery +0.

    Brutes use High HP, High Damage. Artillery/Lurkers use Low HP.
    AOEs use Low damage. Encounter powers use High-next tier Medium damage.

    Elites have 2x HP, +2 to saving throws, some anti-CC ability, and get an extra target "for free" on attacks. They are worth 2x XP.

    Solos have 4x HP, +5 to saving throws, insane anti-CC abilities, and should have lots of AOE abilities and encounter powers. They are worth 4x XP.

    Player changes:
    Feats are optional. You can strip them. Humans gain +2 to one stat, and +1 to all other stats, if you strip them of their feat.

    You have a Talent of +3 at level 1. This increases by 1 at level 5, 13 and 29; so max of +6, min of +3.

    You add your Talent when you make an attack, or use a trained skill. You add half your talent (round down) to your F/R/W defences, and your AC in heavy armor.

    Stats are capped at 20 in Heroic, 21 in Paragon and 22 in Epic. Epic destinies that add +2 to a stat also increase the cap by 2.

    At level 4, 8, 14, 18, 24, 28 you can choose to gain +1 to two stats, or gain a feat.

    At level 11 and 21, you gain +1 to all stats (the same time as your cap increases).

    Humans gain a bonus feat at level 1. Nobody else gains a feat at level 1.

    At-wills gain a damage die at level 11 instead of 21, and a second damage die at level 21.

    Other powers, double the number of dice of damage they deal, then subtract 1. So a 5[W] power now deals 9[W].

    Once per round on your turn, you can deal extra damage equal to your character level when using a power to one target.

    Feats that grant "scaling bonuses" to F/R/W/ATK/etc only grant their minimium bonus. The three Epic-tier +4 F/R/W feats are banned.

    Item changes:
    Magic enhancement scales up to +3 instead of +6 (at +1 per tier, instead of +2).

    Magic weapons and implements, instead of adding +enhance damage, make attacks with them brutal. A +1 weapon lets you reroll all 1s from the damage dice of the attacks; a +3 lets you reroll 1s, 2s and 3s.

    Item bonuses from items are halved, round down.

    You can attune up to 3 items. Common items do not require attunement; uncommon, rare and legendary ones do.

    Encounter building:
    XP budgets for a Heroic character is Level+2. For a Paragon and above character, it is Level*2-8.

    It takes 10x your budget to gain a level (if not using milestones).

    Using Peons against Epic tier characters is ill-advised. If you can fit the budget, using higher-tier monsters should work against low-tier players.

    Naturally this only matters if you care that encounters are defeatable and/or a threat.

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Colossus in the Playground
     
    JNAProductions's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Location
    Fighting Demons!

    Default Re: I Keep Tinkering with 4e merge 5e

    I can work with this.
    I have a LOT of Homebrew!

    Current Avatar by Elder Tsofu, who is awesome!

    Spoiler: Former Avatars
    Show
    Spoiler: Avatar (Not In Use) By Professor Gnoll!
    Show


    Spoiler: Avatar (Not In Use) By Cdr. Fallout!
    Show

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •