Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker [Spoilers Ahoy!]

[Sapphire Guard]

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Anakin damned himself in the hope of learning Force healing. Apparently even a baby can do it now.

[KillianHawkeye]

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Anakin damned himself in the hope of learning Force healing. Apparently even a baby can do it now.

What do you mean by

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even a baby can do it?

[Blackhawk748]

Ah okay, I knew that Darth Plagueis supposedly had the ability to keep people alive (as mentioned in Revenge of the Sith), but I wasn't familiar with any actual Dark Side healing powers.

Im pretty sure it stems from the governing emotion behind why you do it, similar to Force Lightning. Cade generally did it out of selfishness, but never enough to truly push him over the line. Force Lightning, interestingly has 2 light side variants, one made by Plo Koon and another made by Luke. Both don't draw on anger to manifest, which is why they can be used without risking slipping to the Dark side

[Tom Kalbfus]

I mean I saw a review of it that said there are 34 plot holes many of which broke star wars canon, was worse that Last Jedi, wasn't even enjoyable on a low popcorn level, just made the Force do everything, made Ray able to accomplish everything, and

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had multiple instances of characters just being brought back to life with the force out of nowhere

and that whatever the Last Jedi did, this did worse without any the brave attempts at subverting expectation.

so, uh.....not really persuading me to see it.

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I have not seen the movie, but I gather that Palpatine was an apprentise of Darth Plageius, he told Anakin, in Revenge of the Sith, a story of how Plageius used the Force to prevent people from dying and of how his apprentis (assuming Palpatine was the apprentis) killed him. Maybe Palpatine learned a thing or two from his old master before he killed him.

[KillianHawkeye]

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I have not seen the movie, but I gather that Palpatine was an apprentise of Darth Plageius, he told Anakin, in Revenge of the Sith, a story of how Plageius used the Force to prevent people from dying and of how his apprentis (assuming Palpatine was the apprentis) killed him. Maybe Palpatine learned a thing or two from his old master before he killed him.

He also says that

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he doesn't know the secrets of this power, but of course he might have been lying or he might have figured it all out by the time of his supposed death in Return of the Jedi.

[druid91]

What do you mean by

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even a baby can do it?

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In the latest episode of the Mandalorian the FIFTY YEAR OLD baby Yoda can do force healing. Yes it's developmentally a baby. It's still been in existence for fifty years.

[Mechalich]

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Anakin damned himself in the hope of learning Force healing. Apparently even a baby can do it now.

It's unclear whether or not Force Healing would have actually saved Padme. Star Wars medical technology is quite advanced, and while whatever injuries Anakin inflicted on Padma seem to have interacted with her pregnancy in a complex way, it's implied that the droids could have healed her, if she'd wanted to be healed. In a very real sense Padme Amidala committed suicide rather than face what Anakin had become (ugh, I hate writing that sentence, it's a foul thing, but I can't find a good counter to that explanation).

[Fyraltari]

So for those who wondered about the message mentionned at the beginning you can listen to it here, weirdly enough.

[Psyren]

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I don’t remember any of that. Luke says he was afraid but he never said he was afraid of Palpatine.

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In TLJ, he cut himself off from the Force itself - which is exactly what Rey was about to do before Luke's ghost convinced her she could succeed where he had failed. Avoiding temptation/corruption from the Sith is the most, if not only, logical explanation for that.

He seemed surprised by it, so I don’t think that was planned on his part.

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So surprised that he knew exactly how to exploit it once they were in front of him?

If there was surprise on his part, I think it had more to do with the strength of their bond than its existence.

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Execution matters. On the first movie Luke destroyed the death star by trusting his instincts rather than a computer. On episode VI Luke defeated the emperor by rejecting temptation. On this film Rey defeats the emperor by using anime powers

So did Aang, so clearly ATLA sucked by this logic

The emotion is what matters in a scene like that, not the crunch.

So, spoiler-free, from what I've read here and in reviews, it looks like JJ Abrams essentially pushed the reset button on episode 8, retconned it away, then slapped on his own conclusion and storyline which pick up where The Force Awakens left off. Is that correct?

Not really. While some of TLJ's setups were walked back a bit, I don't think anything was "reset."

Though I suspect that the folks who truly despised TLJ will loudly declare some sort of victory in some spots. If that gets the endless bickering to subside a bit then fine.

[Zevox]

ETA: In fairness, I don't think the ST replaces the Thrawn Trilogy. The Thrawn Trilogy takes place between 5 and 10 years after the Battle of Endor, while the ST doesn't pick up until 15 years after. That's plenty of time for the Thrawn Trilogy to happen, with some minor edits to the continuity to fit Han and Leia's children into the new continuity.

So TTT can still be considered canon, especially since Thrawn is in New Canon. But there was a lot of dreck in the old school EU canon, and for that I will be grateful to Disney, even if I am not at all happy with episode 8.

Extremely doubtful. The Thrawn Trilogy already had some iffy things as far as canon is concerned due to the Prequels revealing that the Clone Wars was a very different thing than Zahn had made it out to be in that story, and then you have to throw in its conflicts with the new canon's revision to how history progressed after Return of the Jedi, plus there's what happened to new canon Thrawn himself at the end of Rebels... yeah, I don't think that's happening. We're getting Zahn's novels where Thrawn is the protagonist, which are good (and the first in particular fits just as well into the old canon as the new, which I appreciate), but I doubt we'll see either the original Thrawn Trilogy re-canonized or a new version of it.

[Pex]

Personally, I thought it was a little weird that Rey kept doubting her alignment when

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she was the first movie character to use Force Healing, which has always been one of the most solidly Light Side powers in any of the games it's been in. I guess she also accidentally did Force Lightning, which is a big no no Dark Side power, but it's still weird. She's basically outcast/neutral Kyle Katarn for half of the movie until she figures herself out.

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Obi Wan Kenobi uses it on Luke after chasing off the Tusken Raiders. It didn't get much fanfare, but it is distinctly shown he places a hand on Luke in a determined gesture. That's where the idea of Force Healing being a thing in the RPG and video games that came after comes from.

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Chewbacca finally gets his medal! As Darth Vader said when he was 8, "Yippee!"

[Fyraltari]

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In TLJ, he cut himself off from the Force itself - which is exactly what Rey was about to do before Luke's ghost convinced her she could succeed where he had failed. Avoiding temptation/corruption from the Sith is the most, if not only, logical explanation for that.

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Or you know, the one that is actually given in TLJ. Depression and the fear that if he or the Jedi try again they will just fail again.
The idea that if Luke hadn’t severed his connection to the Force Palpatine would have turned him evil doesn’t really make sense and isn’t even proposed by the film. Hell Palps tried to corrupt him in Return of the Jedi and he failed.

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So surprised that he knew exactly how to exploit it once they were in front of him?

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Yeah. Why wouldn’t he know? This kind of bound already has a name so it probably has happened before and Sidious is very knowledgeable about what unnatural things the Dark Side of the Force allows.

So did Aang, so clearly ATLA sucked by this logic

The emotion is what matters in a scene like that, not the crunch.

Clearly anything even resembling anime is terribly bad.[/sarcasm]

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Obi Wan Kenobi uses it on Luke after chasing off the Tusken Raiders. It didn't get much fanfare, but it is distinctly shown he places a hand on Luke in a determined gesture. That's where the idea of Force Healing being a thing in the RPG and video games that came after comes from.

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It also showed up in the Hand of Thrawn. And really it’s a logical thing for the Light to be able to do.

[deuterio12]

So remember the whole "throw a ship at warp speed at the enemy fleet to wreck them" from the previous movie?

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In the big final battle one of the characters does ask why don't they repeat that trick against Palpatine's uber fleet, and another replies that it was a "one in a million chance", so seems like it was a stupidly lucky gambit out of desperation and only worked because of plot rolling a bunch of natural 20s in a row.

Mind you the current situation was even more desperate so it would be a great time to try it again.

Overall an enjoyable movie though.

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As previously mentioned, Rey being Palpatine's granddaughter does justify her great power and also allows for a plot of breaking away from one's destiny.

Although technically Luke was the son of Sith Lord Anakin who went around genociding kids so meh.

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Dual wielding lightsabers OP, please nerf. Seems like Mace Windu could've dealt with Palpatine right in the final prequel movie if he had just picked up one of the fallen sabers in the room.

"Hey, you know what would be a cool upgrade to Star Destroyers? If we equip them all with a glaring weakpoint that means even tiny fighters can easily take them out!"

Also... There were that many warships outside the First Order still? Where were they in the previous movies?

[Mightymosy]

Now I understand why Psyren and I never could come to terms during the TLJ discussions.

You can't separate fluff and crunch from one and the other.
You can't just say one is more important than the other, give one priority and ignore the other.
If you focus on one and ignore the other you get a crappy product, whether that is a movie, a book, or game or whatever else.

Fluff and crunch need to work together to create an awesome product.
If you ignore one, you get a half-assed product either way.


The one exception may be works where the focus is clearly only fluff or only crunch from the design day one. When every audience know beforehand to expect only one. Don't know of a good example. Maybe because there aren't many "good" examples either way. Competent authors tend to realise the need for both sides of the coin.

[Tom Kalbfus]

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In TLJ, he cut himself off from the Force itself - which is exactly what Rey was about to do before Luke's ghost convinced her she could succeed where he had failed. Avoiding temptation/corruption from the Sith is the most, if not only, logical explanation for that.

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So surprised that he knew exactly how to exploit it once they were in front of him?

If there was surprise on his part, I think it had more to do with the strength of their bond than its existence.

So did Aang, so clearly ATLA sucked by this logic

The emotion is what matters in a scene like that, not the crunch.



Not really. While some of TLJ's setups were walked back a bit, I don't think anything was "reset."

Though I suspect that the folks who truly despised TLJ will loudly declare some sort of victory in some spots. If that gets the endless bickering to subside a bit then fine.

Rey is a full fledged superhero, if she were somehow transported to Earth in the Marvel Universe, she would be a welcome addition to the Avengers. I don't think anyone else in the Star Wars Universe rises to full superheroe status. Luke Skywalker has some powers, but he is a lower level character than Rey

[Droid Tony]

Well, saw the movie and I'm sure glad the ''Skywalker Sage" is over. And hope Disney dumps all these new characters in to oblivion.

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*Palpatine is back....how dumb. They should of gone with a new villain. And really, if they wanted to be all woke and fair it should have been a Datrh Barbie Empresses.

*So Pal makes a super Death Star Destroyer fleet like out of thin air? It takes a huge amount of time and resources to make a space fleet, plus recruitment and training. But some how he did all that and nobody noticed.....

*Why must Star Wars keep doing the ''one easy to shoot weak spot". Why must there be a communications tower? Why not do it any other way?

*Oh look new female characters that get like three minutes of screen time.

*So...what is this obsession with keeping female characters hidden? Why does Poe's anti-girl not friend wear her armor 24/7? What is the point of hiring an actress if we never see her face?

*Wow, the Leia bits were very baddy cut into the movie and then she just...um...dies? It was all so bad, really they could of just had her pass away before the movie started.

*Er, suddenly, Luke trained Leia to be a Jedi? But she dropped out? But...er...she was still an expert teacher for Rae?

*Odd....you don't see Death Star pieces flying away when it explodes....kinda looks like nothing is left. And yet there are huge chunks?

*Why even waste time with the fake deaths? Oh no Chewy! Oh, but wait he is ok. C-3PO is worse as they waste a lot of time being sad....and then 'pop' reset button and it never happened.

*Er...what IS with C3PO's programing? What idiot programed him? So he CAN read an evil secret language...but can't translate it because it's against the rules or law? Um...then why can he even read it? And what is with the stupid mind wipe? Like if you were not a mush owner that loved your droid like a person...then you would not care much about the mind wipe. Or, you know, just keep a back up copy of your droids personality.

*Wonder why NO Star Wars movie ever had a hint that Palpatine had a family? What is that time line anyway? Did he have a wife and kid back when he was just in the senate? So...er...by Star Wars Palpatines Daughter would have been like 40. So she likely would of had a kid by then, and then that makes grand daughter Rae like 40? I don't think the math adds up.

*Er so the whole galaxy shows up....with all the Battleships they had just sitting around? Where did ''everyone" get all the war ships? Or were those like space trucks with 1 watt laser guns?

*And the idea that ''everyone" could just work togther in a non-fleet is crazy.....they would kill each other as much as they would do anything.

*THE MEDAL-this is the dumbest thing EVER. Yes, Chewy did not get a medal back in Star Wars as humans in Star Wars are racist vs aliens. But to have the dumb alien grandma give him one for no reason? Dumb.

[zinycor]

So did Aang, so clearly ATLA sucked by this logic

What? What does ATLA have to do with anything?

If you mean the ending, it was somehow Deus ex Machina, since it was a power never shown before, but I didn't mind it, because it was a thematic solution, appropiate for the problem and themes of the show. Removing Ozai's ability to firebend was peaceful (Aang's goal), clever, effective, and visually beatiful.

The way rey defeated Palpatine was none of those things.

[deuterio12]

What? What does ATLA have to do with anything?

If you mean the ending, it was somehow Deus ex Machina, since it was a power never shown before, but I didn't mind it, because it was a thematic solution, appropiate for the problem and themes of the show. Removing Ozai's ability to firebend was peaceful (Aang's goal), clever, effective, and visually beatiful.

The way rey defeated Palpatine was none of those things.

Plut it was just an extra. The Fire nation was already defeated, if not by Aang, then Ozai would've just been zerg rushed by the water/earth nation's armies because his own army had been routed.

[Bartmanhomer]

For some reason, I have a feeling that this isn't really the end of Star Wars.

[Peelee]

For some reason, I have a feeling that this isn't really the end of Star Wars.

Disney has never even pretended it would be? It's the end of the Skywalker Saga, otherwise known as the Episodes. They've been very open about still making more movies and other content, even openly announcing them years ago.

[Bartmanhomer]

Disney has never even pretended it would be? It's the end of the Skywalker Saga, otherwise known as the Episodes. They've been very open about still making more movies and other content, even openly announcing them years ago.

Yes just like the Mandalorian TV Series. Disney is still making more Star Wars content.

[Psyren]

What? What does ATLA have to do with anything?

I mean that dismissing a final confrontation as "aNImE PoWeRS" because it has dramatic special effects is a nonsensical viewpoint.

you mean the ending, it was somehow Deus ex Machina, since it was a power never shown before,

Every single main beat in that fight was shown before.

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Drawing on past jedi to win - ANH

Reflecting Force Lightning back at the Emperor with a lightsaber - RotS

Force Lightning working on starships - set up earlier in the movie for exactly this reason.

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Or you know, the one that is actually given in TLJ. Depression and the fear that if he or the Jedi try again they will just fail again.
The idea that if Luke hadn’t severed his connection to the Force Palpatine would have turned him evil doesn’t really make sense and isn’t even proposed by the film. Hell Palps tried to corrupt him in Return of the Jedi and he failed.

Why do you think those two ideas are mutually exclusive? I think they go together just fine.

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Yeah. Why wouldn’t he know? This kind of bound already has a name so it probably has happened before and Sidious is very knowledgeable about what unnatural things the Dark Side of the Force allows.

...
Clearly anything even resembling anime is terribly bad.[/sarcasm]

Agreed on both counts.

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It also showed up in the Hand of Thrawn. And really it’s a logical thing for the Light to be able to do.

It's on both sides in SWTOR I'm pretty sure. I think it's a logical thing for the Force to be able to do, just like it's something all clerics can do in D&D.

[Fyraltari]

Why do you think those two ideas are mutually exclusive? I think they go together just fine.

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I just don't think Luke was aware of Palpatine's survival until this movie.

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It's on both sides in SWTOR I'm pretty sure. I think it's a logical thing for the Force to be able to do, just like it's something all clerics can do in D&D.

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Since the Dark side is powered by negative emotions and the Light (sometimes) is by positive emotions or at least serenity, it makes more sense for the Light-sider to be able to do that especially since the Dark side gets all kind of powers, it's nice to have something concrete to go with Yoda stating that the Dark side is not inherently stronger. I don't find Dark-siders being able to heal absurd either, hell that's what Plagueis was gunning for (though I have argued that his immortality is a dark twist on Force-ghosting).

[Psyren]

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I just don't think Luke was aware of Palpatine's survival until this movie.

I don't think he would have had to be.

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Just feeling a dark presence would be enough. Palpatine has always been good at hiding everything except a vague sense of unease, even from other masters, which is pretty impressive given the sheer amount of power he commands.

Besides, now that we know he was behind Snoke, it means he was behind every negative feeling Luke felt towards Ben, even when he might not have known who or what was ultimately to blame.

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Since the Dark side is powered by negative emotions and the Light (sometimes) is by positive emotions or at least serenity, it makes more sense for the Light-sider to be able to do that especially since the Dark side gets all kind of powers, it's nice to have something concrete to go with Yoda stating that the Dark side is not inherently stronger. I don't find Dark-siders being able to heal absurd either, hell that's what Plagueis was gunning for (though I have argued that his immortality is a dark twist on Force-ghosting).

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Oh definitely, I agree that Light should be better at healing.

Ghosting is a metaphorical display of their differing philosophies. Darksiders want to live forever because they only care about personal power. Lightsiders are fine with stepping aside and making room for a new generation, but being there to help them when the going gets tough - it's the difference between being a good parent and wanting to devour your children for your own survival.

[Peelee]

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Son of a... I had about six or seven paragraphs already written out, pretty lengthy at that, when my mouse fell off the couch and closed the browser. None of it saved. So sorry, y'all are getting my abridged version, because I'm not doing that again.

I really liked this movie. In fact, I liked it so much that I think it should have been the whole damn trilogy. Introducing "hey the Emperor is back" in the opening crawl is really weird and stupid, I was wondering if I didn't remember that in TLJ or something. Having the audience actually hear that after Starkiller Base blows, when they're licking their wounds? That would have provided an amazing kicking off point for Eps 8 and 9 and a sense of urgency and dread throughout, instead of Bathrobe Wizard who was so shrouded in mystery that they gave no reason to care about him before they offed him and super duper fleet which proceeds to do all of exactly nothing for two movies. Why does the First Order even care about a fleet ten thousand times their size that they can get their hands on? They already rule the galaxy, that was literally the opening crawl of the last one. It's Scrooge McDuck being offered the contents of Fort Knox - yeah, it's a big boon, but he's already the richest duck in the world, so what exactly is the point? J. J. Abrams is **** at power creep. How about just re-canonize the Eclipse, have the Emperor holed up in a mobile fortress that can still threaten any given planet and be a credible fleet killer. The F. O. "fleet killer" is a big threat to capital ships every half hour, and has maybe a dozen or so smaller guns that blow up when sneezed on and needs a big support system, and thats if the enemy ships don't just jump out. Rebels re-canonized Interdictor cruisers and gravity wells preventing lightspeed, so the Eclipse is perfect to throw into the movies! It's a fleet unto itself, can devastate entire fleets and threaten whole planets if necessary, serves as the command ship for the Emperor, is designed to be both a technological and psychological weapon, and would be a significant asset for the First Order without being just a stupid overkill plot-rock. Or maybe have it be a Katana Fleet situation, where some Moff whatever that truly believed in the purity of the Empire slaved a massive fleet of Star Destroyers into the middle of space, and more or less the same thing here but without the "I totes made them myself it's like super easy and also they have Death Star superlasers" part.

Frankly, walking out of the movie, I couldn't really recount how A led to B led to C. I couldn't really tell you the plot, because there was just so ****ing much going on. Which, again, would have been amazing split up into three movies. There were two problems with the movie: J. J. Abrams doing the same crappy things he does in every movie he makes, and this movie not being the entire dang trilogy.

I'm excited to go see it again.

[Yana]

Does this movie do anything to redeem Luke's character after TLJ took an axe to him? The 8th movie's treatment of him, moreso than anything else, is the main reason why I'm not likely to watch this movie.

[Fyraltari]

Does this movie do anything to redeem Luke's character after TLJ took an axe to him? The 8th movie's treatment of him, moreso than anything else, is the main reason why I'm not likely to watch this movie.

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Luke calls his holing up on Ach-To a mistake and urges Rey to not do the same. Also symbolically, she throws away the lightsaber and he catches it.

[zinycor]

I mean that dismissing a final confrontation as "aNImE PoWeRS" because it has dramatic special effects is a nonsensical viewpoint.



Every single main beat in that fight was shown before.

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Drawing on past jedi to win - ANH

Reflecting Force Lightning back at the Emperor with a lightsaber - RotS

Force Lightning working on starships - set up earlier in the movie for exactly this reason.

What? there was not past jedi or reflecting force in ATLA

[Psyren]

What? there was not past jedi or reflecting force in ATLA

Both of those things were in ATLA. You... watched it, right?

[zinycor]

Both of those things were in ATLA. You... watched it, right?

So, you comparing the stablished techniue deeloped by IRoh, passed on to zuko, then passed on to Aang... to Rey reflecting?
And the stablished Avatar state, with clear drawbacks and development... To Rey getting in contact with other jedi all of a sudden?

As I said... Execution matters. These thing may seem similar, but on ATLA, they were explored, they were part of continuity and well stablished. On this lastepisode it was crappy and undeserved.

I feel like you read me saying "Anime-bull****" as me disregarding all anime, but it is in relation to crappy anime, like Fairy Tail, where protagonists just get power ups whenever is convenient because of friendship.