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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Epic Level nerfs

    So i'm currently perusing through the epic insights compilation and have noticed something kind of really lame. Some of the epic progressions (unless i'm missing a very desired ruling somewhere) retroactively nerf some of the classes they're based on. Some noteworthy mentions are:


    Spellsword: can no longer channel spells above level 4 either until level 15 or level 3 UNTIL 15th level in the class which then increases to 4th level spells



    Illithid Savant: explicitly says you can't go around slohrpin up epic feats even if you qualify for them outside of being non-epic


    haven't finished going through the document yet but those are the ones that give me a big ole sad face so far

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    MonkGuy

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    Default Re: Epic Level nerfs

    What document are you referring to?
    3.5 Cast - A GitP member made, third edition podcast
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    The Master Specialist Handbook
    Truly Complete List of 3.5e Base Classes
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    DMG 3.5e page 41:
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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Epic Level nerfs

    Quote Originally Posted by Raishoiken View Post
    Spellsword: can no longer channel spells above level 4 either until level 15 or level 3 UNTIL 15th level in the class which then increases to 4th level spells
    This isn't a retroactive nerf, the EIC was published before the 3.5 version of the Spellsword, in 3.0 the Spellsword could only channel 3rd-level spells pre-epic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Raishoiken View Post
    Illithid Savant: explicitly says you can't go around slohrpin up epic feats even if you qualify for them outside of being non-epic
    I'm a bit puzzled by this, Illithid Savant says you must qualify for any feat you get via Acquire feat, and all epic feats require you to be epic to qualify for them, so how is this a nerf?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Miller View Post
    What document are you referring to?
    He's referring to the epic insights compilation, downloadable here (it appears on the list as "compiled and updated").

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    MaxiDuRaritry's Avatar

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    Default Re: Epic Level nerfs

    It doesn't retroactively nerf the original non-epic levels, but take a look at the epic mystic theurge. UGH. You're literally better off ignoring it completely and just jumping back and forth between levels of the original classes. Wizard 5/cleric 5/MT 10/wiz 1/clr 1/wiz 1/clr 1 is literally more powerful than the same build but with Epic MT 4.
    Last edited by MaxiDuRaritry; 2019-12-19 at 11:22 PM.
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    DrowGirl

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    Default Re: Epic Level nerfs

    Quote Originally Posted by Raishoiken View Post
    So i'm currently perusing through the epic insights compilation and have noticed something kind of really lame. Some of the epic progressions (unless i'm missing a very desired ruling somewhere) retroactively nerf some of the classes they're based on. Some noteworthy mentions are:
    The problem with EIC is that it was published very, very early in 3.5. Specifically, it was published before any of the (nonepic) PrCs themselves were updated in the Complete series of sourcebooks. As such, while it's a 3.5 compilation its progressions are meant for the 3.0 versions of all the PrCs and are not entirely compatible with their 3.5 versions. Some of the PrCs are actually shortened to 5 or 7 levels, rendering them ineligible to get epic progression at all.

    (I should also note that plenty of PrCs were nerfed in 3.5. 3.0 Hospitaler, for instance, was way too good, which is why it got nerfed to hell and back in 3.5. You probably just aren't looking at those because you're familiar with classes' 3.5 power rather than their 3.0 power.)

    As for Illithid Savant... well, as Biggus said, a prerequisite for Epic feats is "be epic", and an Illithid Savant needs to meet prereqs. The EIC just spells it out.

    (An Illithid Savant is also going to have a hard time finding epic brains to eat unless it's gone full Pun-Pun, since epic characters are both rare and hard to kill. Nonepic brains will, naturally, not have any epic feats to eat whether or not the Illithid Savant qualifies for them.)

    EDIT:

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxiDuRaritry View Post
    It doesn't retroactively nerf the original non-epic levels, but take a look at the epic mystic theurge. UGH. You're literally better off ignoring it completely and just jumping back and forth between levels of the original classes. Wizard 5/cleric 5/MT 10/wiz 1/clr 1/wiz 1/clr 1 is literally more powerful than the same build but with Epic MT 4.
    It has one slight advantage in that it has an epic feat progression (while Wizard and Cleric won't until they get to actual class level 20) - but it's hilariously slow at 1/6.

    Also, Epic Mystic Theurge is a bit off-topic since it's not part of the Epic Insights Compilation.
    Last edited by magic9mushroom; 2019-12-19 at 11:37 PM.
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    Default Re: Epic Level nerfs

    Quote Originally Posted by magic9mushroom View Post
    As for Illithid Savant... well, as Biggus said, a prerequisite for Epic feats is "be epic", and an Illithid Savant needs to meet prereqs. The EIC just spells it out.

    (An Illithid Savant is also going to have a hard time finding epic brains to eat unless it's gone full Pun-Pun, since epic characters are both rare and hard to kill. Nonepic brains will, naturally, not have any epic feats to eat whether or not the Illithid Savant qualifies for them.)
    It's ridiculously easy by epic levels to clone people in various ways if you have arcane spellcasting or psionic manifesting, which is entirely probable for any illithid savant. Also, if you have access to swallow whole (see: spellcasting and manifesting), the brain is part of the body, and if you swallow the body, you swallow the brain. The fact that you can disgorge 'em afterwards doesn't obviate the fact that you "ate the brain" in the first place.

    In short, nobody (that isn't a clone of some sort) has to bleed to feed your need.

    Also, astral projection is a thing, as well.

    And both dragons and martial monks can access epic feats prior to epic.
    Last edited by MaxiDuRaritry; 2019-12-19 at 11:57 PM.
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    DrowGirl

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    Default Re: Epic Level nerfs

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxiDuRaritry View Post
    The fact that you can disgorge 'em afterwards doesn't obviate the fact that you "ate the brain" in the first place.
    It says "consumed", not "ate". I was paraphrasing. Your semantics fall flat.
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    You're just trying to get more people into your sig, aren't you
    Quote Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost View Post
    Seeing TO by Magic9Mushroom is like seeing a movie with Joss Wheaton as director... you know that it's worth watching, even if you do want to strangle the bastard by the time you're done with it.

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    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: Epic Level nerfs

    Quote Originally Posted by Biggus View Post


    I'm a bit puzzled by this, Illithid Savant says you must qualify for any feat you get via Acquire feat, and all epic feats require you to be epic to qualify for them, so how is this a nerf?


    I'm not sure I've found a thread so far that comes to a concrete census on whether or not epic is technically a "prerequisite" as defined by game terms; and argument I've often seen for this is while the book says it's a requirement to "take" them instead of normal feats as part of leveling up and such, but the very next section, the *Prerequisites* section, list completely separate and run of the mill stuff of meeting prereqs. I feel like if the were being smart about it they would have put it under that sections specifically to allow no wiggle room, as there are other ways to acquire epic feats outside the conventional. But that's a whole nother thing, albeit one I'm 100% down to discuss
    Last edited by Raishoiken; 2019-12-20 at 12:49 AM.

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    Default Re: Epic Level nerfs

    Quote Originally Posted by magic9mushroom View Post
    It says "consumed", not "ate". I was paraphrasing. Your semantics fall flat.
    Quote Originally Posted by Merriam Webster
    Definition of consume
    transitive verb

    1: to do away with completely : DESTROY
    Fire consumed several buildings.
    2a: to spend wastefully : SQUANDER
    consumed his inheritance on luxuries
    b: USE UP
    Writing consumed much of his time.
    3a: to eat or drink especially in great quantity
    consumed several bags of pretzels
    b: to enjoy avidly : DEVOUR
    mysteries, which she consumes for fun
    Eden Ross Lipson
    4: to engage fully : ENGROSS
    consumed with curiosity
    5: to utilize as a customer
    consume goods and services
    Note that, given you're supposed to be eating a brain, the definition that fits is 3a: to eat or drink.

    As the body contains the brain, and the brain is part of the body, if you consume the entire body, the brain is also consumed, and my above point still stands.

    This makes more sense than, say, number 1, since you can destroy a brain in a great many ways that don't involve eating, but burning a brain up with, say, energy wave or splattering it with cranial deluge would be significantly easier than eating it would be, since you can do so from a distance. I imagine it's also significantly more abusable. Note that using time hop also "consumes" the brain, since for the minutes it's gone, it's even more "done away with completely" than it would be by simply destroying it, since not even atoms would be left for that amount of time. It's also less damaging (and far less disgusting) than swallowing the owner whole would be.

    Either way, doing so with a functional clone would be fair game regardless.
    Last edited by MaxiDuRaritry; 2019-12-20 at 01:04 AM.
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    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: Epic Level nerfs

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxiDuRaritry View Post
    Note that, given you're supposed to be eating a brain, the definition that fits is 3a: to eat or drink.

    As the body contains the brain, and the brain is part of the body, if you consume the entire body, the brain is also consumed, and my above point still stands.

    This makes more sense than, say, number 1, since you can destroy a brain in a great many ways that don't involve eating, but burning a brain up with, say, energy wave or splattering it with cranial deluge would be significantly easier than eating it would be, since you can do so from a distance. I imagine it's also significantly more abusable. Note that using time hop also "consumes" the brain, since for the minutes it's gone, it's even more "done away with completely" than it would be by simply destroying it, since not even atoms would be left for that amount of time. It's also less damaging (and far less disgusting) than swallowing the owner whole would be.

    Either way, doing so with a functional clone would be fair game regardless.
    Not to mention another dictionary i found has it to where even the small amounts of your own brain your body recycles counts

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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Epic Level nerfs

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxiDuRaritry View Post
    And both dragons and martial monks can access epic feats prior to epic.
    Dragons are specifically called out as an exception in the Draconomicon. Also, monsters can start gaining epic feats when they reach 21HD, as for example the Demilich demonstrates, and AFAIK all dragons have at least 21HD when they reach Old age, so unless there's a low-HD dragon somewhere I've missed it's not even an exception.

    The Martial Monk *can be read* as qualifying for epic feats while nonepic, but that's clearly a case of using an ultra-literal interpretation of RAW to allow something that was never intended, so I don't think it's a very good argument for "you don't have to be epic to take epic feats" as a general rule. Also, as it's Dragon Magazine content, it's debatable whether it's official material or 3rd party.

    Quote Originally Posted by Raishoiken View Post
    I'm not sure I've found a thread so far that comes to a concrete census on whether or not epic is technically a "prerequisite" as defined by game terms; and argument I've often seen for this is while the book says it's a requirement to "take" them instead of normal feats as part of leveling up and such, but the very next section, the *Prerequisites* section, list completely separate and run of the mill stuff of meeting prereqs. I feel like if the were being smart about it they would have put it under that sections specifically to allow no wiggle room, as there are other ways to acquire epic feats outside the conventional. But that's a whole nother thing, albeit one I'm 100% down to discuss
    It was made clearer in 3.5. In DMG (p.209) it says "EPIC FEATS: the following feats are only available to epic characters". Complete Arcane (p.190) says "EPIC FEATS: The feats below are available only to characters of at least 21st level".
    Last edited by Biggus; 2019-12-20 at 10:17 AM.

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    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: Epic Level nerfs

    Quote Originally Posted by Biggus View Post
    Dragons are specifically called out as an exception in the Draconomicon. Also, monsters can start gaining epic feats when they reach 21HD, as for example the Demilich demonstrates, and AFAIK all dragons have at least 21HD when they reach Old age, so unless there's a low-HD dragon somewhere I've missed it's not even an exception.

    The Martial Monk *can be read* as qualifying for epic feats while nonepic, but that's clearly a case of using an ultra-literal interpretation of RAW to allow something that was never intended, so I don't think it's a very good argument for "you don't have to be epic to take epic feats" as a general rule. Also, as it's Dragon Magazine content, it's debatable whether it's official material or 3rd party.



    It was made clearer in 3.5. In DMG (p.209) it says "EPIC FEATS: the following feats are only available to epic characters". Complete Arcane (p.190) says "EPIC FEATS: The feats below are available only to characters of at least 21st level".

    You couuuuld theoretically hack yourself into being allowed to take epic feats by stealing the half dragon savage progression capstone or dragon disciple if you wanted a less convoluted class to steal the dragon type from, and the rest of illithid savant's class features allow for reaching what would normally be "epic" prereqs: lots of sneak attack dice, high skill ranks since they are explicitly allowed to break the cap, and other such things. Even if you jump through those requisite hoops (including old age), it would STILL only allow you to take epic feats in place of the one you get every three levels because the epic illithid savant class feature says that they cant use it to take epic feats with it. Unless you argue that being an old dragon qualifies for that too, given the whole "only if he meets the feat's prerequisites" part suggests it actually should.

    Big agree that the martial monk thing is a big stinky hunk to actually abuse but she's there

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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Epic Level nerfs

    Quote Originally Posted by Raishoiken View Post
    You couuuuld theoretically hack yourself into being allowed to take epic feats [...]
    Yeah, there are theoretically ways to get epic feats before epic, but they all rely on deliberately misunderstanding the rules, so in practice you'd need an extremely permissive DM to actually use them.

    That said, if you can find such a DM, fill your boots

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    Default Re: Epic Level nerfs

    Quote Originally Posted by Biggus View Post
    Yeah, there are theoretically ways to get epic feats before epic, but they all rely on deliberately misunderstanding the rules, so in practice you'd need an extremely permissive DM to actually use them.

    That said, if you can find such a DM, fill your boots
    Having 21+ HD qualifies you for epic feats. This is entirely RAW and uncontestable. There are quite a few ways to gain bonus HD, some of which are found in Core. A higher level bard, for instance, or lycanthropy. Granted, some of them are temporary or reversible, but they still grant HD-related benefits, including 1/3 levels feats. So a 3+ HD half-giant who contracts T-Rex lycanthropy (even via the CDivine's curse of lycanthropy) suddenly has an epic feat to toss around, as one example.
    Last edited by MaxiDuRaritry; 2019-12-20 at 11:53 AM.
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    Default Re: Epic Level nerfs

    Quote Originally Posted by Biggus View Post
    Yeah, there are theoretically ways to get epic feats before epic, but they all rely on deliberately misunderstanding the rules, so in practice you'd need an extremely permissive DM to actually use them.

    That said, if you can find such a DM, fill your boots
    i meant theoretically as in legal but definitely in the no fly zone for actual play. creatures of both old age and the dragon type at the same time are explicitly allowed to take epic feats along side characters level 21 and up.

    Come to think of it.. 21 is pretty old....

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    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: Epic Level nerfs

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxiDuRaritry View Post
    And both dragons and martial monks can access epic feats prior to epic.
    Dragons, maybe, but not martial monks. You don't need to meet a feat's prerequisite to take it as a monk bonus feat, but the requirement that you have to be an epic character to take an epic feat isn't a prerequisite. If it was, it would be listed among the other prerequisites in each of the epic feats, and it isn't.

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