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  1. - Top - End - #121
    Orc in the Playground
     
    Goblin

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    Default Re: Gunnerkrigg Court 8: Thrown for a Loup

    Quote Originally Posted by theKOT View Post
    I like this explanation because it would make things less messy, and less "nothing really matters because it can all be fixed via my time machine". Stakes are important.
    The way time travel works can make the difference. This one seems like "you can only do things with time travel that you already did" Which is the narratively superior one, because if something bad happens it stays happened. Unless we find out it really only looked like that, and the characters were being especially clever. Also, it means that any unexplained detail could be foreshadowing. Less back to the future, more Prisoner of Azkaban.

    It's also much harder to write, but I think Tom is up to it.
    "The error is to be human"

  2. - Top - End - #122
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Chimera

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    Default Re: Gunnerkrigg Court 8: Thrown for a Loup

    Quote Originally Posted by Spojaz View Post
    This one seems like "you can only do things with time travel that you already did" Which is the narratively superior one, because if something bad happens it stays happened. Unless we find out it really only looked like that, and the characters were being especially clever.

    "Oh, it's so horrible that Zimmy died in the last adventure! Now I have to make a perfect Zimmy replica and send it back in time so that it's really it that died and we can find the real Zimmy hiding in a broom closet in 3...2...1..."

  3. - Top - End - #123
    Troll in the Playground
     
    GnomeWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Gunnerkrigg Court 8: Thrown for a Loup

    The immediate problem is "why were the Tic-Tocs made to begin with?"

    Kat made them in this timeline because they saved Annie and she became curious about them. She then sent them back in time to save Annie. Classic bootstrap paradox, there's no original Tic-Tocs to kick the whole thing off.

    One theory would be that Kat from a different timeline made the birds to try and resurrect Annie. In that timeline Annie died and events played out very differently. Kat never forgave herself for not being around to save her, so she put her energy into making the birds.

    That caused a timeline fork into Universe B, and then Loup forked the timelines again to create Universe 1.

  4. - Top - End - #124
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Gunnerkrigg Court 8: Thrown for a Loup

    An alternative explanation is they know it was made by a divine being, and they just assume it was her.

  5. - Top - End - #125
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    SwashbucklerGuy

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    Default Re: Gunnerkrigg Court 8: Thrown for a Loup


  6. - Top - End - #126
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Max_Killjoy's Avatar

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    Default Re: Gunnerkrigg Court 8: Thrown for a Loup

    I like taking these opportunities to chuckle at the discomfort of those who adhere to hard determinism.

    So what if there's a loop?

    And no, Kat, you're not "always" doing this, the linear progression of your own experience does not get stuck in some sort of loop because the tic-toc's causality is in a loop.
    It is one thing to suspend your disbelief. It is another thing entirely to hang it by the neck until dead.

    Verisimilitude -- n, the appearance or semblance of truth, likelihood, or probability.

    The concern is not realism in speculative fiction, but rather the sense that a setting or story could be real, fostered by internal consistency and coherence.

    The Worldbuilding Forum -- where realities are born.

  7. - Top - End - #127
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    SwashbucklerGuy

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    Default Re: Gunnerkrigg Court 8: Thrown for a Loup

    Quote Originally Posted by Max_Killjoy View Post
    I like taking these opportunities to chuckle at the discomfort of those who adhere to hard determinism.

    So what if there's a loop?
    If the loop works as described, it has no cause. If causality doesn't apply to this event, then it might not apply to other events.
    Kat wants to investigate the principles in how things work. She can't reliably do that if things just happen for no reason.

  8. - Top - End - #128
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Narkis's Avatar

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    Default Re: Gunnerkrigg Court 8: Thrown for a Loup

    Quote Originally Posted by hungrycrow View Post
    If the loop works as described, it has no cause. If causality doesn't apply to this event, then it might not apply to other events.
    Kat wants to investigate the principles in how things work. She can't reliably do that if things just happen for no reason.
    No, there absolutely is a cause. Cause and effect just don't follow a strict linear relation like in every other case. Hence the "loop" in "time loop".
    Last edited by Narkis; 2020-06-05 at 10:56 AM.
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  9. - Top - End - #129
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    SolithKnightGuy

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    Default Re: Gunnerkrigg Court 8: Thrown for a Loup

    I'm just waiting for Kat to exclaim that they're trapped in poorly written sci-fi. Not because I dislike it or anything - just because she has a grasp of the problems that exist in what is happening and I could see her losing it in that way.

  10. - Top - End - #130
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Gunnerkrigg Court 8: Thrown for a Loup

    Quote Originally Posted by Spojaz View Post
    The way time travel works can make the difference. This one seems like "you can only do things with time travel that you already did" Which is the narratively superior one, because if something bad happens it stays happened. Unless we find out it really only looked like that, and the characters were being especially clever. Also, it means that any unexplained detail could be foreshadowing. Less back to the future, more Prisoner of Azkaban.

    It's also much harder to write, but I think Tom is up to it.
    I am not fond of them, sure it avoids some strain on the narrative by preventing it from solving many things. But it is also so artificial, basically getting into fate territory. I suppose it would make some sense without basically fate if time travel only worked if the result was a stable loop but that would be so vanishingly rare that nobody would have ever figured out that it is possible at all so nobody would ever try it when it would work. Much more so if you don't arbitrarily limit the stable time loop nature to things important to humans, but include things like the placements of sand corns or gravel you walked over.

    If time travel does work reliable but just happens to always end in stable time loops well that is where the fate like properties come in. If you can travel back in time there are obviously things you could deliberately do that would not conform to a time loop. So are your actions limited or guided in some specific way? Doesn't seem that way in most stories people act freely their actions just conveniently result in a stable time loop. Hence fate territory.

    I suppose you could say if the result is not stable that slightly changes the circumstances of traveling back and that iterates until the result is stable. And since time is involved that happens instantly and the prior loops have never happened. But a fully stable time loop is a pretty big requirement I doubt every initial situation could resolve into one like that.

    Well I just go along with it in stories of course and don't usually think much about it but still I don't find it aesthetically pleasing.

  11. - Top - End - #131
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    SwashbucklerGuy

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    Default Re: Gunnerkrigg Court 8: Thrown for a Loup

    Quote Originally Posted by Narkis View Post
    No, there absolutely is a cause. Cause and effect just don't follow a strict linear relation like in every other case. Hence the "loop" in "time loop".
    Causality works within the loop, but the loop itself has no cause. Kat never came up with the idea, she just copied it from herself.
    Why did she make the TicToks look like weird cyborg toucans instead of anything else? Why does she create the loop at all, instead of living in a timeline where Annie dies? No reason, the universe is just like that.

  12. - Top - End - #132
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Narkis's Avatar

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    Default Re: Gunnerkrigg Court 8: Thrown for a Loup

    Quote Originally Posted by hungrycrow View Post
    Causality works within the loop, but the loop itself has no cause. Kat never came up with the idea, she just copied it from herself.
    Why did she make the TicToks look like weird cyborg toucans instead of anything else? Why does she create the loop at all, instead of living in a timeline where Annie dies? No reason, the universe is just like that.
    The tictocs saving Annie caused Kat to make the tictocs which caused them to save Annie. All perfectly consistent. Hence the loop. What caused the loop? Well, what causes linear time? Can you give an answer to the latter question that doesn't simultaneously answer the former?

    And we know why they look like that: Kat thinks they're cute. She said it herself!
    Many thanks to Assassin 89 for this avatar!

  13. - Top - End - #133
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    SolithKnightGuy

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    Default Re: Gunnerkrigg Court 8: Thrown for a Loup

    The worst part about time travel (among many bad parts) in media is when everyone decides to sit around debating it like they have something resembling a decent point. Time travel never works properly in stories but you can either accept that it's part of the story and go with the flow without worrying or you can try to rationalize it while arguing against everyone who points out the flaws in the rationale you found for yourself. Literally the only good point about time travel I've ever seen in any media is, in the movie Looper, when Bruce Willis tells JGL no to bother trying to figure things out with a diagram but to simply accept the situation they're in and decide what to do next.

  14. - Top - End - #134
    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: Gunnerkrigg Court 8: Thrown for a Loup

    I am generally not a fan of dramas in which the characters directly involved in the conflict have access to a form of time travel that they can control. It bothers me because I feel like there is never any finality to a conflict. "If we don't succeed this time, the antagonists will accomplish something really bad!"
    "Oh, but if we fail, then eventually someone will time travel in from an alternate future and fix it. Then someone else will time travel back and mess up whatever they accomplished...why do we care about the outcome of this next scene again?"

    That doesn't mean I dislike all time travel in fiction. I can usually tolerate it if it satisfies at least one of the following conditions:
    a)The time travel mechanism is something no one can control (like a one-time magical accident).
    b)The only people who can control time travel is clearly not a part of the main conflict in any timeline. A decent example of this IMO is Gore Vidal's Visit to a Small Planet (1957) (or at least, the play: I haven't seen the movie).
    c)There is little or no dramatic tension to begin with because the story is mainly a comedy (Hitchhiker's guide does this well).
    d)The story is clearly a parody of another story with time travel (for example, StarKid Productions A Very Potter Sequel, or, somewhat less obviously, StarKid's Firebringer.)

    I'm not sure yet if Gunnerkrigg Court is going to fall into categories (a), (b), or neither (in which case I probably won't like much of the remaining story.)

    But despite all that, I still like the loop vs loup pun in the author comment today.

  15. - Top - End - #135
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    SolithKnightGuy

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    Default Re: Gunnerkrigg Court 8: Thrown for a Loup

    Quote Originally Posted by 137ben View Post
    snip
    For me it's all about consistency. If they follow their own rules I don't care. I don't care if it's paradoxical, I don't care if it makes sense. I do care about those things when they try to take it seriously - if it's a plot gimmick then fine but if it's something you want to have taken seriously... ehh, it's going to fall apart under scrutiny. As far as GC goes I will say that I'm feeling (based off of these last couple pages) that I feel like the impact of time travel is far more important to these characters than it is to the overarching story that we're experiencing.

    Kat tells Annie that she invents/invented time travel and Annie is just like, "Wow, cool, this requires no further worry or concern," while Kat is hung up on the specifics of it. They represent two different ideals - two ideals that the community is siding itself around right now. Some people are fixated on the specifics and "what does it mean" while others are just like, "Oh cool, part of the story."

    I've said it before but I feel like GC is a lot like the show 'Lost' in a few ways - most specifically in regards to the way it frames "Man of Science, Man of Faith" type arguments. Jack was continually trying to justify, to find some rationale for the things that couldn't be explained, but every answer he found just led to more confusion and more questions. And opposing him we had John Locke who was continually there, simply willing to accept the impossible, to assume that things around him made sense by virtue of the fact that they couldn't be happening if they didn't somehow make sense. Where GC differs, in regards to this specific debate, however, is that in this situation our "Woman of Science, Woman of Faith" are not opposed to each other. They're actively working together to better each others understanding of the world around them.

  16. - Top - End - #136
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Gunnerkrigg Court 8: Thrown for a Loup

    Thinking about this some more, this is actually not a new concept. Aren't coyote and co. created by the beliefs of humans, but those beliefs also somehow caused them to exist since before humans were around? I feel like this has come up in the comic.

  17. - Top - End - #137
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: Gunnerkrigg Court 8: Thrown for a Loup

    Quote Originally Posted by Zea mays View Post
    Also, the Arbiter/translator said neither of the current Annies belong there.
    Would someone please remind me when this happened? Which chapter?

  18. - Top - End - #138
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Gunnerkrigg Court 8: Thrown for a Loup

    Quote Originally Posted by eschmenk View Post
    Would someone please remind me when this happened? Which chapter?
    https://www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=2162

  19. - Top - End - #139
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    memnarch's Avatar

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    Default Re: Gunnerkrigg Court 8: Thrown for a Loup

    Quote Originally Posted by Kornaki View Post
    Thinking about this some more, this is actually not a new concept. Aren't coyote and co. created by the beliefs of humans, but those beliefs also somehow caused them to exist since before humans were around? I feel like this has come up in the comic.
    Indeed it has, almost eight years ago.
    If you want a OotS style Touhou avatar, send me a request.

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  20. - Top - End - #140
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    GnomeWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Gunnerkrigg Court 8: Thrown for a Loup

    Quote Originally Posted by memnarch View Post
    Indeed it has, almost eight years ago.
    A line from Jones on the very next page that seems appropriate for this discussion: "Can something exist before it is created?"

    Granted, that line was referring to mythological and myth-adjacent creatures like Coyote and Jones, but given that Kat seems to be gradually becoming something like a god by the sheer strength of the robots' belief in her, I think it warrants considering.

  21. - Top - End - #141
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Gunnerkrigg Court 8: Thrown for a Loup

    Quote Originally Posted by KatsOfLoathing View Post
    A line from Jones on the very next page that seems appropriate for this discussion: "Can something exist before it is created?"

    Granted, that line was referring to mythological and myth-adjacent creatures like Coyote and Jones, but given that Kat seems to be gradually becoming something like a god by the sheer strength of the robots' belief in her, I think it warrants considering.
    Kat for Big Bug Robot Thing, 2024.
    An explanation of why MitD being any larger than Huge is implausible.

    See my extended signature here! May contain wit, candor, and somewhere from 52 to 8127 walruses.

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  22. - Top - End - #142
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    SolithKnightGuy

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    Default Re: Gunnerkrigg Court 8: Thrown for a Loup

    Quote Originally Posted by KatsOfLoathing View Post
    A line from Jones on the very next page that seems appropriate for this discussion: "Can something exist before it is created?"

    Granted, that line was referring to mythological and myth-adjacent creatures like Coyote and Jones, but given that Kat seems to be gradually becoming something like a god by the sheer strength of the robots' belief in her, I think it warrants considering.
    We've already seen what Kat looks like in the ether - she becomes mythological at some point and that faith reverberates backwards. I don't see how it could mean anything else.

  23. - Top - End - #143
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Gunnerkrigg Court 8: Thrown for a Loup

    Oh so a splitting world time model makes sense with the two Annie versions.

    Poor Kat seems to be taking this pretty hard. Excellent time for both extra Annies to disappear!
    Last edited by Ibrinar; 2020-06-08 at 05:01 PM.

  24. - Top - End - #144
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Gunnerkrigg Court 8: Thrown for a Loup

    Kat is also missing the other possibility: it's a stable time loop, and eventually something happens that involves the bird being sent back, thus allowing it to save Annie. While it's arguably a paradox, it doesn't mean it's a malevolent one by nature.

    That's not how this is going to go, of course, because that's a simple resolution that would let us dismiss all of it. This is clearly set up for something far more important, presumably the final, post-Loup setting.
    An explanation of why MitD being any larger than Huge is implausible.

    See my extended signature here! May contain wit, candor, and somewhere from 52 to 8127 walruses.

    Purple is humorous descriptions made up on the fly
    Green is serious talk about hypothetical
    Blue is irony and sarcasm


    "I think, therefore I am,
    I walk, therefore I stand,
    I sleep, therefore I dream;
    I joke, therefore I meme."
    -Squire Doodad

  25. - Top - End - #145
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    DwarfClericGuy

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    Default Re: Gunnerkrigg Court 8: Thrown for a Loup

    Well, it looks like Kat tripped over the reasoning that she couldn't fathom the previous page.

    "If I don't figure out how to build the birds, the Annies will die."

    Stable time loop, then.
    May you get EXACTLY what you wish for.

  26. - Top - End - #146
    Orc in the Playground
     
    wingnutx's Avatar

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    Default Re: Gunnerkrigg Court 8: Thrown for a Loup

    Time for Zimmy!

  27. - Top - End - #147
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Lizardfolk

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    Default Re: Gunnerkrigg Court 8: Thrown for a Loup

    I would like to point out that saying "you will never find anything" would only encourage any scientist worth their salt.

  28. - Top - End - #148
    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: Gunnerkrigg Court 8: Thrown for a Loup

    Is Annie going to suggest that Kat ask Anthony for help with the tictocs?
    EDIT: Or Kat's parents.
    Last edited by 137ben; 2020-06-17 at 11:30 AM.

  29. - Top - End - #149
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Gunnerkrigg Court 8: Thrown for a Loup

    My bet is on Kat's mom, personally. Although the wording was rather intentionally vague to hide any clues, so I could always be wrong.

  30. - Top - End - #150
    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: Gunnerkrigg Court 8: Thrown for a Loup

    It's totally going to be Brinnie!

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