Yora reviews Babylon 5

[factotum]

I think some of the stuff that happens here would, again, be more meaningful if Sinclair were still around to react to them--especially Delenn's transformation. One thing that does puzzle me a bit is that I've heard it was supposed to be Catherine Sakai (Sinclair's girlfriend from Season 1) who went missing on a trip to Z'Ha'Dum, but that doesn't really fit with Morden. Not sure how exactly that all pans out, but guess it's largely irrelevant since it's not how the plot ended up going.

[Olinser]

I think some of the stuff that happens here would, again, be more meaningful if Sinclair were still around to react to them--especially Delenn's transformation. One thing that does puzzle me a bit is that I've heard it was supposed to be Catherine Sakai (Sinclair's girlfriend from Season 1) who went missing on a trip to Z'Ha'Dum, but that doesn't really fit with Morden. Not sure how exactly that all pans out, but guess it's largely irrelevant since it's not how the plot ended up going.

There's a lot of ways they could have played it.

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Most simple would probably have had them uncover a transmission/video clip of Sakai's ship landing on Z'Ha'Dum just like we saw with the Icarus, and the last part of the video before it got cut off would have been a shot of Morden.

Alternately, they would have had Morden be the one that commissioned Sakai to take the expedition in the first place (behind a suitable proxy of course), and have Sinclair find out he was the one behind it.

The final story would have been pretty much the same either way.

[russdm]

S2E2: Revelations

Morden tells Londo everything went well with destroying the Narn base and there's no chance anything can be traced back to them. If Londo needs something else destroyed, like a colony, he just has to give the word. Londo does not believe they can do that and asks why then just don't destroy the Narn home world, and Morden tells him it's not the time for that yet.

I believe that Morden's reply to Londo's flippant remark/suggestion was "All in good time, Ambassador." or something along those lines. With the rather heavy implication that he, Morden, could blow up the Narn homeworld. I think you see Londo reacting like he didn't know if Morden was making a joke or was actually serious. It's one of those moments that you wonder why Londo isn't asking any questions about Morden's "Sponsors".

I always got the impression in the episode that Garibaldi knew who shot him when he woke up, but lied about it when the Traitor was there because Garibadi didn't fully know what was involved and wanted to investigate. I seem to recall Garibadi glancing at the traitor, reacting in reaction slightly, then flat out lying to the others. Then breathing in relief when the traitor leaves, considering that it seems or it seemed that the traitor had smuggled in a way to med-lab and likely would have murdered both Dr franklin and ivanova. That may have been in error on watching though.

[factotum]

It's one of those moments that you wonder why Londo isn't asking any questions about Morden's "Sponsors".

Fear of slaying the goose that lays the golden eggs, I would guess. It's not like Morden needs Londo in particular, after all--any Centauri in a position of power would do just as well.

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As we later see when Morden switches his attention to Lord Refa.

[Yora]

I always got the impression in the episode that Garibaldi knew who shot him when he woke up, but lied about it when the Traitor was there because Garibadi didn't fully know what was involved and wanted to investigate. I seem to recall Garibadi glancing at the traitor, reacting in reaction slightly, then flat out lying to the others. Then breathing in relief when the traitor leaves, considering that it seems or it seemed that the traitor had smuggled in a way to med-lab and likely would have murdered both Dr franklin and ivanova. That may have been in error on watching though.

No, that would contradict his entire conversation with Talia and the way he reacts when she helps him find the reflection in his memories. The scenes that follow are very clear.

[Lord Vukodlak]

Fear of slaying the goose that lays the golden eggs, I would guess. It's not like Morden needs Londo in particular, after all--any Centauri in a position of power would do just as well.

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As we later see when Morden switches his attention to Lord Refa.

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Ah but when Londo blackmails Refa into no longer working with the shadows does Morden have Londo killed? No he murders Adira and frames Refa. So Londo will turn to him for help in getting revenge and later they pick Londo to be their liaison to the royal court. So clearly the shadows prefer Londo. Probably because they know Londo will put the welfare of his people before himself which can be used against him.

[GloatingSwine]

Londo is particularly valuable to the Shadows because his personal situation is a close mirror to the Republic as a whole.

He's a member of a house that used to be powerful in the Republic but has lost a lot of its glory and influence, that's why he's out on Babylon 5, because he's not important enough not to be any more.

When he answers Morden's question, he's not just talking about the Centauri Republic being what they were, he's talking about his house and himself (See: Knives towards the end of this season to see more of Londo reliving his personal past glory and how it drives him).

Refa was never as valuable to the Shadows, because his house was already powerful, more of his personal ambitions were already sated. Morden's flirtation with Refa was never about shifting their patronage it was about breaking down Mollari's inhibitions and bringing out his ruthlessness to make him a better tool.

* Interesting side note for Londo, notice through this season that as his power and position improve his hair gets better and his costume gets darker to show his path.

[Yora]

When talking about things that will happen in future episodes, use spoiler tags.

[huttj509]

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Ah but when Londo blackmails Refa into no longer working with the shadows does Morden have Londo killed? No he murders Adira and frames Refa. So Londo will turn to him for help in getting revenge and later they pick Londo to be their liaison to the royal court. So clearly the shadows prefer Londo. Probably because they know Londo will put the welfare of his people before himself which can be used against him.

Man, trying to make a spoiler free descriptor for a spoiler tag can be tricky.

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From the Shadow point of view, Refa's been compromised. That blackmail worked once means he might be skittish of others finding out and dial back on the association. Meanwhile, Londo has some big honking levers to push. Even better, Londo working with the shadows is then Londo's own idea. They love the "hey, this is what you asked for" angle.

[Daimbert]

Man, trying to make a spoiler free descriptor for a spoiler tag can be tricky.

Spoiler: manipulation

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From the Shadow point of view, Refa's been compromised. That blackmail worked once means he might be skittish of others finding out and dial back on the association. Meanwhile, Londo has some big honking levers to push. Even better, Londo working with the shadows is then Londo's own idea. They love the "hey, this is what you asked for" angle.

That's why I don't bother [grin].

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The Shadows picked Londo for a specific reason. They don't want to torment people, but to make them strong through conflict. Refa is merely personally ambitious, but Londo's ambitions were not primarily for himself, but for the Republic, which suited their needs better. This also caused them some issues when he started wondering if it was really in the best interests of the Centauri, so they set up a situation where he would want something badly that only they could provide for him to suck him back in. And as the previous person said, Londo can be manipulated by threatening the Republic, which Refa can't. But the biggest motive is his grand ambitions, as G'Kar was rejected because he only cared about simple vengeance and they weren't interested in that.

[huttj509]

That's why I don't bother [grin].

I understand the sentiment, but uncommented spoiler blocks can be really hard to follow, especially in multiple chained replies without them. I've been in threads where there were multiple discussions going on, some of which I wished to partake in, but others were regarding stuff I hadn't seen yet.

[Rodin]

Speaking of spoilers, these two episodes drive me crazy every time I want to introduce someone new to Babylon 5. This is due to the opening credits for the syndicated version of the show...which is the same as every other episode in season 2.

This spoils Sinclair leaving the show (since he's no longer in the credits)...but more importantly it spoils Delenn's new appearance. There's a lot of speculation that goes on about what Delenn is doing in that cocoon, and in the episode where she comes out there are a couple of fakeouts about her turning into an abomination. All of which is ruined by seeing her in the credits.

They didn't show this in the original TV broadcast, and I'm baffled by the decision to use a different credit sequence in the syndicated release. It's the same on the DVDs, and as far as I know it remains the case on the streaming version as well. When I first introduced my roommate in college to Babylon 5 I had to record the episodes (on VHS, which was old-fashioned even at the time) and have him face the wall while I fast-forwarded through the opening credits for the first two episodes.

Just...WHY!?

[Cikomyr]

That's why I don't bother [grin].

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The Shadows picked Londo for a specific reason. They don't want to torment people, but to make them strong through conflict. Refa is merely personally ambitious, but Londo's ambitions were not primarily for himself, but for the Republic, which suited their needs better. This also caused them some issues when he started wondering if it was really in the best interests of the Centauri, so they set up a situation where he would want something badly that only they could provide for him to suck him back in. And as the previous person said, Londo can be manipulated by threatening the Republic, which Refa can't. But the biggest motive is his grand ambitions, as G'Kar was rejected because he only cared about simple vengeance and they weren't interested in that.

So they picked him because he was, in a very strange way, actually seflless in his pride.
About the Greater Good of his people.

[Yora]

When talking about things that will happen in future episodes, use spoiler tags.

Please.

[Thufir]

Man, trying to make a spoiler free descriptor for a spoiler tag can be tricky.

Simple method would be rather than trying to describe what you're talking about, just label it with how far into the show you're spoiling (so in this case, late season 3). That's what matters to anyone trying to avoid spoilers of stuff they haven't seen yet, whereas describing it either can be a spoiler itself as you noted, or can be sufficiently vague that they don't realise it's a spoiler and open it anyway.

[Grey Watcher]

...

"In the Beginning" really ruins this, because the introduction here sets up a lot of interesting plot threads, including that one. Sheridan's description makes it sound like a deliberate strategy, where it can easily be inferred that he mined the field, sent out a presumably fake distress call, and then triggered them and destroyed the fleet when they came to investigate. The immediate interpretation of this is that he did something that is against all typical rules of war and exploited the normal tendency to respond to distress calls to give aid to win a tactical victory, which is something that they would reasonably be upset at. It makes Sheridan look like someone who will do whatever it takes to get a victory as well, which is consistent with his character. And then, if you think about it a bit, you can wonder about the fact that since the Minbari were on a mission of utter genocide, would they really be coming to help damaged Earth ships, or destroy them? And then you can wonder why the Warrior Caste is so upset about the deception, considering that of all the castes they would realize the use of deception in war, and we see that they aren't above doing that themselves. Maybe, then, the Warrior Caste, is more upset that they were beaten and are using the claims of deception as a way to get the other Castes to agree with them, since given the Minbari distaste for lying that's an argument that those Castes will understand and agree with more than the "We lost!' angle.

And then "In the Beginning" ruins it by (I'm not sure if we still need spoilers for that episode):

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... having Sheridan really be in distress and setting that up only as a defense in case the Minbari show up first, as if they did they'd destroy the ship. It removes all ambiguity from the event and simply makes Sheridan right, which hurts the Minbari and also removes Sheridan's biggest example of doing whatever it takes, even if morally dubious, to win.

So, are you saying this is the B5 universe's version of "Han shot first"?

[factotum]

When I first introduced my roommate in college to Babylon 5 I had to record the episodes (on VHS, which was old-fashioned even at the time) and have him face the wall while I fast-forwarded through the opening credits for the first two episodes.

Um, why did you need to do that? I've never seen a DVD player that couldn't be fast forwarded in the same way as a VHS tape.

[Rodin]

Um, why did you need to do that? I've never seen a DVD player that couldn't be fast forwarded in the same way as a VHS tape.

...Because this was 2002 and I was recording live TV? The Babylon 5 DVDs didn't come out until years later, and DVRs were pretty uncommon at the time too. They didn't become standard with a cable subscription until at least 2007, because my cable in my first apartment didn't come with a DVR. I certainly didn't have access to one as a college student.

The only way for us to watch Babylon 5 was by catching it as it aired on Sci-Fi. Sometimes we were at class and had to record them. In this particular case I recorded them even though we could have caught it live, just so I could fast-forward through the opening credits.

[factotum]

Ah, sorry, misunderstood, thought you'd recorded the VHS off the DVD!

[tomandtish]

I disagree with that assessment of "In The Beginning":

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Yes, Sheridan's ship had already been damaged by the Black Star, but nonetheless, he did do exactly what you said he did--he sent out a distress call in the sure knowledge the Minbari would show up to finish them off, and then set off the nukes when they arrived. Thus, the Minbari attitude here is somewhat justified, especially when you consider "honour in war" to be very high on their list of priorities. Heck, it was doing the honourable thing and approaching the Earth vessel with their gunports open that led to the war in the first place!

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He sets them out because the ship might still be there and might show up first, but he was hoping that EA forces would arrive first. And he only does that because he knows that if they show up they will indeed simply destroy the ship, and he rightly doesn't want his pretty much helpless crew to die.
So it confirms that the Minbari were acting dishonourably there which was only something that was implied or brought out later in the series, and turns Sheridan's actions into an act of desperation and not a reasoned tactic. That kills the moral ambiguity of the action and can't be used as an example of Sheridan's tactical genius or his ability to take any action necessary to win a victory.

Daimbert is exactly right.

I believe that Morden's reply to Londo's flippant remark/suggestion was "All in good time, Ambassador." or something along those lines. With the rather heavy implication that he, Morden, could blow up the Narn homeworld. I think you see Londo reacting like he didn't know if Morden was making a joke or was actually serious. It's one of those moments that you wonder why Londo isn't asking any questions about Morden's "Sponsors".

I always read this as the first time Londo is wondering (even briefly) if he's screwed up with this alliance. You're right that he's not sure if it's a joke or not, but you can almost see see thought process of "Well, if he's not joking then what the hell have I gotten myself into".

[Yora]

S2E3: The Geometry of Shadows

Garibaldi gets cleared by Franklin to return to work. He still is suspicious about Sherridan being the new boss on the station and Franklin notices him not dealing to well with being shot in the back by one of his own men.

Londo gets a visit from Lord Refa, who is curious about how he managed to have the Narn base destroyed without leaving any trace who did it. Londo is not going to tell him yet, but Refa lets him him keep his secrets. He thinks the emperor is old and weak and his succession is not clear yet, and he and his friends could use someone with Londo's initiative and resources on their side. Londo is quite looking forward to the possibilities.
Londo and Vir take Refa to his transport back home and Lonndo sees a techno-mage in the arrival area. He tells Vir they are mystics who use devices to create illusions. They are very rare and few people ever see one. Seeing more than one in the same place is a bad omen, and this one is joined by two more.

Some Drazi start a brawl with each other without clear provocation and are taken in by security. Ivanova explains to Sherridan that this is just part of their system of government where two factions fight each other for power every five years until one side accepts defeat. Sherridan thinks this is a good opportunity for Ivanova to get some diplomatic training and tells her to try calming down the Drazi on the station.

Vir is looking for Londo because of a missed appointment and finds him as usual in some street bar. Londo asks him randomly if he believes in fate, and Vir starts to go into a lengthy explanation that he thinks there are forces in the universe that pull people in different directions, and sometimes you have to let yourself get pulled, and at other times you have to fight against them. The trick is to figure out which ones are which. Londo remembered that the first emperor gained his power after asking three techno-mages for advice, and Refa told him the Centauri are waiting for signs where the future will take them. It would look really good for his reputation to have techno-mages tell him his future and he sends Vir to arrange it. Vir thinks that's a terrible idea.

Garibaldi is fiddling with his gun when he gets a visit by Sherridan who wants to know when Garibaldi thinks he will be back to work. Sherridan says he really wants him to lead the security team again, but if Garibaldi decides against it he would like to know that he has to search for a replacement soon.

Ivanova calls the Drazi leaders together to figure out what the conflict between the two group is exactly about so they can figure a suitable solution. But the Greens and Purples aren't anything like parties and everyone just draws a color randomly. Then they beat each other until one side gives up. To make sure she got this right, she takes the purple scarf off one Drazi and puts it on one of the greens, which immediately causes all the Drazi to freak out and start brawling.

Vir goes to the quarters of the techno-mages and tries to find someone to talk to. The lights go out and a huge demon appears, but Vir is not impressed and asks to talk with one of the mages. He's been working for Londo, he's used to weird things. The leader of the mages appears and asks what he wants, but tells Vir they don't give audiences and are leaving known space.

Ivanova is taken to medlab with a broken foot after being tackled by a Drazi. Sherridan looks by to see how she is doing, and she tells him she's still on it, so Sherridan trusts she'll handle it.

Garibaldi runs into one of his assistants who asks him when he'll be back to work and he says he not sure yet.

Londo goes to Sherridan to tell him about the techno-mages and gives hints that they should be invited to an official meeting to explain their presence on the station. Their leader Elric is not happy about this summons and being questioned about their activities. When Londo arrives he immediately figures out that Londo set Sherridan up to this because he has been pestering him for an audience for a while. Sherridan is not amused either. Elric blows up a bug Londo places at the door and Sherridan tells him to leave.
Sherridan is still interested in a friendly conversation with Elric, who tells him a bit of their mystic philosophy. He will only explain that the techo-mages are seeing a time of great chaos ahead of them and have decided to go away into hiding to protect their knowledge until it is time to return.

Ivanova gets news that the fighting on the Drazi homeworld has gotten out of hand and they have started to kill each other. She races to the meeting room with security but only finds a bunch of purple Drazi lying on the ground. She goes to talk with the Greens who suggest a solution for the conflict. They need Ivanova to bring all the purples to a meeting in an empty section of the station. And once they are all gathered they will space them all. The greens will be happy, Ivanova will be happy, and the purples will all be dead. Everyone wins.
Ivanova has nothing of it, but the greens already told the purples that Ivanova wants to meet with all of them, so they will keep her prisoner until it's over.

Garibaldi hears about the meeting from a security team he crosses paths with and immediately gets suspicious. He goes snooping around and rescues Ivanova.

Vir is coming to Londo's quarters, where his computers have been hijacked, the light keeps going out and on, and Narn operas are blaring everywhere. Vir suggests Londo might try apologizing to Elric and Londo finally gives in when his computer is buying junk stocks with his money.

Ivanova and Garibaldi stop the Green Drazi with the plan to just keep the purples trapped for a week until the fighting ends. But they misunderstood the Drazi calendar and it's actually a year. Ivanova is fed up and take's the Green leader's cloth with the leader insignia. This turns out to make her the green leader and she orders them to come with her to be kept separated from the purples.

Garibaldi decides to go back to work and Sherridan is very happy to hear it.

Londo manages to catch Elric before he boards his ship to ask if the annoyances in his quarters will end once they are gone, or if he will have to pay for this silly mistake for the rest of his life. Elric tells him that this little triviality between them is not what he will be paying for. Londo has been touched by darkness, but if he would try to warn him, Londo would not listen. And if he killed him, someone else would take his place. So he doesn't bother. But since Londo so very much wanted to know about his destiny, he will tell him what he sees.

- "I see a great hand reaching out from the stars. The hand is your hand. And I hear sounds. The sounds of billions of people calling your name."
- "My followers?"
- "Your victims."

--

Hm, hm, hm... This episode is still only okay. The techno-mage is pretty cool, but he makes up only a small part of the episode. Garibaldi pondering if he should resume his job as security chief is okay, but not terrible interesting. And the Drazi stuff is just filler with a couple of okay jokes. I actually remembered this episode being better, but it didn't live up to that expectation.

The most useful thing we get this episode is Morden's prediction coming true and powerful people in the empire taking notice of him and being interested in getting them in their teams. We have an obvious warning from Elric that Londo is being used and it will have terrible consequences, but his pride makes it pointless to try to warn and stop him. We also get a related warning from Vir at the beginning that it is very hard to tell the difference between what is a great opportunity and a terrible mistake.

I hope things pick up soon.

[factotum]

The techno-mage Elric is played by Michael Ansara, probably more famous as the Klingon Kang from both the Star Trek original series and from Deep Space 9. I mean, the techno-mages really don't make much sense, to be honest, but that last comment Elric gives to Londo is genuinely chilling, even if the rest of the episode isn't super.

[Yora]

I don't find them that strange. Their magic is all gadgets, and they don't pretend otherwise. They are a mystic order that believes you can gain wisdom and important insights by observing and interacting with impossible things even when you know they are illusions. It's not really very different from thinking that art can deeply affect you, and I think that's the intended meaning behind their appearance in this episode. They represent the writers of the show who believe they have important things to share through made up stories, using a medium in which everything is fake, and they acknowledge the important part their effects guys play in it. I just checked and this episode was indeed written by Straczynski himself.

Reminds me quite a bit about the movie Inception, which is also really all about the writer and director telling a story about the power of storytelling.

[Lord Vukodlak]

I love that that line about how the rules change are caught up in Committee which allows Susan to become green leader and order them to wear purple. Wonder if the idea of stealing the leader sash and ordering the rest to wear a different color caught on back in the Drazi homeworld.


Fun fact; Claudia Christian actually broke her foot in RL before filming so JMS wrote it into the episode.

[Kantaki]

- "I see a great hand reaching out from the stars. The hand is your hand. And I hear sounds. The sounds of billions of people calling your name."
- "My followers?"
- "Your victims."

Great line that one.
Always so chilling.

The technomages (and their illusions) are great in general.
Kinda Wizard of Space-Oz like..

The Drazi though...
How in Valen's name did that system ever work?
I mean, I guess the side that wins would have the more dedicated followers- anyone who doesn't like their colour can just toss the rag for starters.

But how for Z'Ha'Dum’s sake did they escalate to murderizing each other?
They're randomly selected!
Everyone should've a ton of relatives and friends on the other side*!
And they're just fine with killing them over elections?

I don't want to say they deserve to burn in the coming fires, but... I would bring marshmallows.

Mind you, the system as initially presented is kinda interesting.
But the conflict in the episode?
Hurts my head when I remember it.

*Doubly so on B5.
The Drazi community on the station isn't that large.

[Rodin]

While there isn't that much going on in this episode, I have a soft spot for it. The technomages are great, the Drazi meaningless conflict is great, Ivanova is great, and we get one of the early moments where Vir shows his courage.

Spoiler: Technomages stuff spoiled just for safety

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It's funny to think that this is the only time the technomages show up in the main Babylon 5 show. Yet they remained a popular enough idea to be featured in the spin-off series and get a full trilogy of novels devoted to them.

Garibaldi is fiddling with his gun when he gets a visit by Sherridan who wants to know when Garibaldi thinks he will be back to work. Sherridan says he really wants him to lead the security team again, but if Garibaldi decides against it he would like to know that he has to search for a replacement soon.

This scene becomes a lot more chilling when you realize why Garibaldi is fiddling with his gun. He's contemplating suicide, because all Garibaldi has is his job. Security chief is the only thing in his life he hasn't screwed up, and now he's been shot in the back by his own handpicked #2. If he can't do this one thing right, what's the point in living?

It makes me wonder what the plan was if Claudia Christian hadn't broken her foot. She was supposed to kung-fu the Drazi and escape on her own, but the broken foot prevented her from doing the action sequence. If that was the case, what would have gotten Garibaldi to stop feeling sorry for himself and get back in the saddle?

[russdm]

Londo did get what he wanted. He got advice from the Techno-mage. It might not have been what Londo wanted the advice to be, but he still got it.

I think that Ivanova's Drazi story was most important, because Babylon 5 goes with, "our aliens are more than just guys in rubber foreheads". The Drazi are treated as you would expect an alien race to be, not human like in some form. The entire picking sides at random and wearing colors makes no sense to us from a human perspective but seems to work for them. I wouldn't say that it was foreshadowing how or where American politics ended up going in feel someways, but I like how hilarious the results are when Ivanova gets involved.

I don't think we have really seen many moments in Star Trek where the diplomacy employed by humans simply makes things worse despite their best efforts. I mean, Susan starts a brawl by accident, grabs the leader sash by accident, and just generally bungles it. But it was so fun.

As for Garibaldi, i think he may taken it a little too personally. There is nothing to indicate that anyone else picked up on Garibaldi's number 2 was a traitor, and its not like there were signs that Garibaldi could have picked up on. At least, i don't recall anything that was enough for him to have seen beforehand without getting shot first. After being shot and investigating, since he knew who shot him, yeah he found stuff, but beforehand there wasn't much. He shouldn't blame himself. He is after all, a trained policeman, not a spy

[huttj509]

elections[/I]?

That's kinda the point of Green/Purple morality (hello trope namer). The Drazi aren't human. They're people, but they aren't human.

[Cikomyr]

That's kinda the point of Green/Purple morality (hello trope namer). The Drazi aren't human. They're people, but they aren't human.

It's not a morality system. It's a political system. It's meant to determine who will be the ruling class of the next 4 years, not a matter of determine who is virtuous and who isn't.

I feel the sudden escalation to murder is probably either 100% expected and standard in their 5-year cycle, or.. There's something different this time?

[factotum]

I feel the sudden escalation to murder is probably either 100% expected and standard in their 5-year cycle, or.. There's something different this time?

Maybe this is something that tends to happen in small, isolated groups of Drazi (like the ones on the station), that *doesn't* happen to the species as a whole? Otherwise they'd probably have destroyed themselves years ago.

Having said that, murdering each other over a random colour assignment doesn't really make any *less* sense than murdering each other over random genetic factors or place of birth...