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  1. - Top - End - #541
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    Default Re: Yora reviews Babylon 5

    A compromise that makes everyone unhappy also isn't unrealistic.
    We are not standing on the shoulders of giants, but on very tall tower of other dwarves.

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    Default Re: Yora reviews Babylon 5

    Quote Originally Posted by Yora View Post
    A compromise that makes everyone unhappy also isn't unrealistic.
    It's possible to argue that you know you've made a good compromise when *none* of the parties involved is happy with it--after all, if one of them *was* happy, it would imply they'd got more out of it than the other guys, which wouldn't be fair!
    Last edited by factotum; 2020-03-07 at 05:47 AM.

  3. - Top - End - #543
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yora View Post
    A compromise that makes everyone unhappy also isn't unrealistic.
    A compromise where everyone is happy isn't a compromise, it's a Golden Solution.

    A compromise where one side is happy and one side is unhappy isn't a compromise, it's a concession by the unhappy party.

    A real compromise is an agreed solution where everyone had to give beyond their tolerance limit, but within acceptability, because the desire for an agreement is considered higher priority than sticking to positional purity.

  4. - Top - End - #544
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    smile Re: Yora reviews Babylon 5

    S3E5: Voices of Authority

    Delenn proposes that they should try contacting the ancient alien species that have gone into hiding thousands of years ago, to ask them to help fighting against the Shadows. Marcus cautions not to expect too much, as they are very strange and enigmatic beings that don't normally talk with anyone. Delenn contacted Draal on the planet near the station, who says he has some information on the ancient aliens in his underground base and thinks Sherridan should come visit him.

    While they are discussing it, Zack welcomes a woman from the Ministry of Peace and tells her the captain is currently unavailable.

    G'Kar approaches Delenn and asks her if there is anything secret going on that he should know about. Delenn says there is nothing unusual, but G'Kar said he heard things about Rangers and thought she would know more if there really is a secret organization of Minbari and humans. Delenn still denies any knowledge and G'Kar tells her he will continue his investigations themselves then.

    The lady arrives in Sherridan's office and notices that the office isn't covered in stars and strips and he does not have a portrait of the Dear Leader on the wall. Some people might consider that unpatriotic. She tells Sherridan she's his new Commissar who will check his orders for being politically approved. Sherridan tells Zack to wait outside and is very clear with her that he's not going to have any of that.
    Since he now has her hovering over him, he tells Ivanova that she needs to go to Draal to get information about potential allies.

    Zack takes the Commissar to her quarters and she tells him to come inside and give her a Nightwatch report about what the captain has been doing in the last weeks.

    Draal is not happy that Ivanova came without him being informed, but soon decides that he likes her because she's trouble.

    Sherridan and the Commissar (seriously, that's what she is) are talking about the situation on the station and she's surprised that there are homeless people. They don't have any homeless on Earth anymore. Only a few individuals who have choosen to live off the grid or are antisocial. She also informs him that Ociania has now introduced Newspeak and recommends that he will use it as well.

    Draal takes Ivanova to the computer in the ancient underground base and shows her how to interface her mind with it to explore the galaxy. As she is browsing through various planets she realizes that the Shadows are sensing her presence and are trying to attack her, and she only barely manages to escape from them. Before she goes out, she comes across the Earth President's ship right before it was blown up. She hears a transmission from the Vice President who is talking about the assassination, and the other voice clearly is Mister Morden, though his face is not seen.
    Draal is surprised that she was able to look into the past, but he tells her he's able to make a recording of what he found, which would be evidence that the current President killed the old one.

    Sherridan goes to his quarters for the night where the Commissar is trying to seduce him. Ivanova projects herself from the machine into his quarters and Sherridan quickly excuses himself. Ivanova tells him that there's an opportunity to get in contact with the ancient aliens but they might have to hurry because the Shadows are lurking around in that area. Sherridan takes her to take the White Star and Marcus as a translator to see if she can reach them.

    G'Kar goes to Garibaldi to tell him he knows something is going on in secret and he wants some answers, but Garibaldi tells him he can't say anything.

    The Commissar is having a meeting with the officers who are in Nightwatch and tells them to report any EarthForce members who say negative things about the government, and to also observe the families and friends of anyone who has been noted for unpatriotic activities. Zack doesn't like that this goes against law enforcement regulations, but is told that as Nightwatch members they all have additional privileges that supersede normal criminal law.

    The White Star arrives at the planet that Ivanova discovered and encounter a huge strange looking ship. It disables their engine and scans them and make contact with Ivanova. She tells them that they are looking for allies to fight against the Shadow. The ancients break off the communication but keep their position, so Marcus assumes they are thinking about it.

    Sherridan and Garialdi are watching the message from President Clark that Ivanova and Draal recorded. Garibaldi asks what they are going to do with it and Sherridan decides to send it to his friend General Hague who is part of the military counter-conspiracy against the president.

    The aliens contact Ivanova again and tell her "Zog", which doesn't tell her anything. The ship turns around to leave and Ivanova gets a last minute idea to call them again to thank them for their time and say that the Vorlons already told her they aren't up to the task, so she understands their refusal. It's also not really a problem since they already have the Vorlons on their side, which should be perfectly sufficient to deal with anything they will face.
    The aliens find that very insulting and tell her when the time comes, she will only have to return to this planet and they will be there to fight with them.

    News about the claims that the old president was assassinated appear on TV (which somehow isn't completely censored yet), with an official investigation being prepared. Because of the current chaos in the Ministry of Peace, the Commissar has been called back to help at home. Garibaldi takes Zack aside and wants him to spill what he has been telling the Commissar. Zack says he didn't tell her anything, but Garibaldi doesn't believe him and reminds Zack that he needs to have trust in him. Zack turns it around and tells Garibaldi that he's keeping secrets from him as well, with those strange meetings he keeps disappearing to.

    In the middle of the night, G'Kar comes to Garibaldi's quarters to give him his holy book and urging him to read it, because it might help him with his secret activities.

    --

    Decent episode. A lot better than the previous ones and while it's a bit unfocused, everything that happens is direct progress for the main plot. I feel that happens with everything that involved Draal. The meeting with the ancient aliens is interesting, but I think it does not get properly followed up upon. Ivanova was basically told that they would come to fight the Shadow the moment they ask them to, but from what I remember it does not really play out like that. We will see.
    I don't like new Draal. He's way too cartoony.

    Earth has now pretty much gone full dictatorship. No words about genocides and internment camps yet, but it sounds like they are ready to start with that any day now. The Commissar is quite interestingly done, except when she tries to seduce Sherridan. That felt like a dumb joke and made no sense, especially considering that he didn't make a secret of how much he dislikes her being there.
    We are not standing on the shoulders of giants, but on very tall tower of other dwarves.

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  5. - Top - End - #545
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    Default Re: Yora reviews Babylon 5

    Quote Originally Posted by Yora View Post
    S3E5: Voices of Authority

    Decent episode. A lot better than the previous ones and while it's a bit unfocused, everything that happens is direct progress for the main plot. I feel that happens with everything that involved Draal. The meeting with the ancient aliens is interesting, but I think it does not get properly followed up upon. Ivanova was basically told that they would come to fight the Shadow the moment they ask them to, but from what I remember it does not really play out like that. We will see.
    Spoiler: Mid Season 4
    Show
    I seem to remember that the ship is somewhere in the massive CGI extravaganza that is the battle at Coriana 6. They and the other First Ones are roped in to blow up the Vorlon Planet-Killer. If I'm not mistaken, they're at timestamp 1:29 here.
    Last edited by Grey Watcher; 2020-03-08 at 02:35 PM.

  6. - Top - End - #546
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    Default Re: Yora reviews Babylon 5

    Yeah, Grey Watcher is correct, the "gather the First Ones" thing does have later effects. It's interesting to note this is Sigma 957, so these guys are presumably the same ones who nearly did for Catherine Sakai back in season 1.

  7. - Top - End - #547
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    Default Re: Yora reviews Babylon 5

    Quote Originally Posted by Yora View Post
    Earth has now pretty much gone full dictatorship. No words about genocides and internment camps yet, but it sounds like they are ready to start with that any day now. The Commissar is quite interestingly done, except when she tries to seduce Sherridan. That felt like a dumb joke and made no sense, especially considering that he didn't make a secret of how much he dislikes her being there.
    Was the scene just acted really badly, or is it the concept of attempting that makes no sense to you? I wouldn't have been surprised at all in that situation - it's not super flattering to women in general to have her pull the seductress card so quickly, but someone charged with making sure Sherridan is loyal/finding proof of his disloyalty is going to look to get leverage on him one way or the other.
    Quote Originally Posted by Red Fel, on quest rewards View Post
    "Is a stack of ten pancakes too many pancakes to give to the party, even if most of them fell on the floor and one or two were stepped on? I wanted to give my party pancakes as a reward but I'm unsure if it's too much. The pancakes are also laced with blowfish poison so the party would have to get an antitoxin before they could eat the ones which weren't pulverized by shoes."

    I don't think anyone would want those pancakes even if you paid them to eat them.

  8. - Top - End - #548
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    Default Re: Yora reviews Babylon 5

    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    Yeah, Grey Watcher is correct, the "gather the First Ones" thing does have later effects. It's interesting to note this is Sigma 957, so these guys are presumably the same ones who nearly did for Catherine Sakai back in season 1.
    They are, its the same ship. I think they actually use the same CGI reel for the ship's appearance, too.

    ALL HAIL THE GREAT RAK!!

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    Default Re: Yora reviews Babylon 5

    Just briefly going back to S3E1, I just remembered that it has a really good Garibaldi moment where he's talking to the Earth investigator and he says something along the lines of, "What kind of head of security would I be if I let myself know things I'm not supposed to know?".

  10. - Top - End - #550
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    Default Re: Yora reviews Babylon 5

    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    Just briefly going back to S3E1, I just remembered that it has a really good Garibaldi moment where he's talking to the Earth investigator and he says something along the lines of, "What kind of head of security would I be if I let myself know things I'm not supposed to know?".
    The entire conversation is gold:

    David Endawi, EarthForce Intelligence:
    This is quite irregular, Mr. Garibaldi! I was assured that Captain Sheridan or Commander Ivanova would be available!

    Michael Garibaldi:
    They got called away on urgent business.

    Endawi:
    What kind of business?

    Garibaldi:
    I'm not authorized for that kind of information.

    Endawi:
    But…you're the head of Security.

    Garibaldi:
    And what kind of head of Security would I be if I let people like me know things that I'm not supposed to know? [I mean,] I know what I know because I have to know it, and if I don't have to know it, I don't tell me, and I don't let anyone else tell me, either. Now look, we've tried most of the other ambassadors. Why don't you speak to G'Kar? Maybe he knows something about this ship.

    Endawi:
    Under the terms of our recent treaty, I am not authorized to have any official conversation with the Narn without Centauri approval.

    Garibaldi:
    So you'll ask unofficially. And I can give you reasonable assurances that the head of Security will not report you for doing so.

    Endawi:
    [slowly] Because you won't tell yourself about it.

    Garibaldi:
    I try never to get involved in my own life. Too much trouble.

    Endawi:
    [confused] This is a very strange place you have here, Mr. Garibaldi.

    Garibaldi:
    Thank you.
    BSG PBF record on BGG: 15 - 17.

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  11. - Top - End - #551
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    S3E6: Dust to Dust

    Sherridan is called by security because a shop owner is having a poster calling for the arrest of the President in his store and refuses to remove it. Sherridan tells the security officer to sod off. Protest against the president is not sabotage against the state.

    Garibaldi calls Ivanova to let her known that Mister Bester from PsiCorp is on his way to the station and needs to talk to the command staff.

    In Brown Sector, the homeless are getting violently crazy.

    Sherridan is worried that Bester might be peeking into their brains and find out about the various secrets they are keeping from the government. Garibaldi thinks they have no other option but to ambush and kill him quietly as soon as he arrives. Franklin is absolutely against it and Sherridan agrees with him. Delenn thinks she might have another option, though it could be risky.

    Vir comes from Minbar to visit Londo, and he seems to be very happy with his new position.

    Crazy homeless start arriving at medlab and one of the doctors notices that their crazy ramblings appear to be about each other's memories, indicating they are high on a drug that boosts telepathic abilities. Franklin apologises for having barked at her while she was trying to explain it to her because he's a bit stressed out right now.

    Bester's shuttle arrives and requests permission to dock and Ivanova tells everyone to clear the command center. Sherridan arrives just in time to keep her from blowing up the ship. He tells her to trust Delenn, but Ivanova is certain that Bester's telepathic powers are too strong and he will discover their secrets.

    When Bester comes into Sheridan's office, he's in the company of half a dozen Minbari telepaths who are there to block him. They give him a choice. Either the Minbari will be present in any of their meetings, or he takes the telepathy-suppressing drug that PsiCorps uses on telepaths who refuse to join them. Bester thinks they are being silly, but takes the drugs without hesitation (but loud complaint).

    Londo is in a meeting with Delenn and the Drazi ambassador about a border conflict between the Centauri and the Drazi, and he's acting very hostile and patronizing, increasing the original Centauri demands for territory when the Drazi offer to compromise, instead of trying to meet them. After the meeting, Vir thanks Delenn and Lennier for getting him the position on Minbar. He thinks it would be good for Londo to come visit him there as well, but Lennier says a change in scenery does not help against the darkness inside a person. But Vir tells them to not give up hope yet, because he's sure Londo will still surprise them in the future.

    Bester explains that he has come to investigate and shut down the trade with the telepathic drug dust that has recently spread on the station. It gives people who normally have no detectable telepathic powers the ability to see other people's whole mind, which of course makes many of them go mad. Usually a person who is scanned that way does not take any damage from it, but it can completely destroy the minds of telepaths who have a two-way connection with the invader. The telepathic abilities caused by dust are crude but very effective, and Bester thinks someone on the station would want it as a weapon, which turns suspicion immediately on G'Kar, who has a history of trying to get access to telepaths for the Narn through lots of creative ways.

    G'Kar is talking with a human gangster and very unhappy they they started selling dust on the station while they are still negotiating for a large supply for the Narn, since it's drawing too much attention. The dealer says G'Kar's shipment is ready and they will deliver as soon as G'Kar is paying them. He gives him a small bag so G'Kar can check its quality. G'Kar tells him he doesn't want to trade it but use it to spy on Centauri and to fight their telepaths. The dealer cautions that this might not work because it only boost existing weak telepathic abilities that exist in most humans, but Narn don't have any telepaths. G'Kar tells him that they used to have some, but all Narn with significant abilities were killed long ago.

    After the dealer is gone, G'Kar decides to test the stuff himself before he buys it in bulk, and starts tripping really badly. He then gets the idea that this is a great moment to go and get Londo.

    Garibaldi and Bester are interrogating one of the station's drug dealers and want him to tell them what he knows about the dust trade. He says he doesn't know anything about that but Bester tells Garibaldi he's lying. The dealer protests that Bester has no right to look into his mind and Bester apologizes, but says strong emotions and lies are hard to block out. The dealer admits that someone approached him to sell dust on the station, but he refused because it's way too dangerous for him.
    Once security takes the dealer to a cell, Garibaldi wants to know how Bester can still read thoughts with the drug. Bester tells him he just assumed the man was hiding something and saw not point in letting him now he currently has no powers.

    Londo is reading Vir's diplomatic reports on the Minbari and is really unhappy with it. Vir is describing them much too positive and fails to make them look bad compared to the Centauri. They are interrupting by the doorbell ringing and when Vir goes to open G'Kar knocks him out and comes after Londo.

    Garibaldi and Bester bust a meeting of drug dealers and confiscate two briefcases full of dust.

    G'Kar has taken a badly beaten up Londo to an empty area in Brown Sector and starts to poke around in his mind. The first memory he finds is Londo getting his position as ambassador on Babylon 5 and finding out that he was the only who didn't run away when it was offered to him. Which G'Kar finds very amusing.
    Next he finds out about Londo making a deal with Morden to start the war against the Narn. He gets furious and tears through Londo's other memories in total chaos until it suddenly stops and he finds himself alone in an empty space with a voice telling him to stop. He turns around and finds his old father hanging from a dead tree. He tells him it's to late to safe him, but not too late for G'Kar to save himself. He tells G'Kar that the war with the Centauri must stop. Even if the Centauri started it (which actually they didn't, but this is G'Kar's mind), the war will destroy both the Centauri and the Narn if it is allowed to continue. While the Narn might die in the dark future that is near, it is better for them to die saving others than to take part in the destruction of the galaxy. The voice tells him that G'Kar has a rare opportunity to change his path and make a major difference. G'Kar realizes the wisdom in it and asks why he is shown this truth now and not earlier, and where the voice had been all the time. A Narn-Angel/Vorlon appears and tells him "I have always been here."
    G'Kar wakes up back to his senses next to an unconscious Londo and starts to cry, with Kosh walking away in the bavkground.

    Londo is taken to medlab and G'Kar is taken to the judge for assault against Londo and Vir and buying dust. He admits full guilt on all charges. Sherridan tries to argue that G'Kar is only partly responsible for his actions because he was under the effect of drugs, but the judge says he very deliberately went to only Londo and nobody else so he was aware of what he was doing. He is sentenced to 60 days in jail.

    Londo and Vir are back to Londo's quarters, still very badly bruised. Londo tells Vir to take his position seriously and give it meaning, even if his superiors on Centauri Prime see none in it.

    Bester leaves the station with two other PsiCops who came to pick him up, and they have a conversation how the development of dust was a complete failure and didn't produce any real Narn telepaths.

    --

    Good episode. As a whole it wasn't as brilliant as I remembered it, with all the Bester stuff not really being that relevant. The main meat of the episode is G'Kar's telepathic encounter with Kosh. Not to give too much away, it's it's heroic turn moment. Until now he was mostly sympathetic because he was the underdog, but overall a pretty shady guy. Here he has his enlightenment. Unlike Sherridan (and Sinclair) who run along with Kosh's antics without understanding what it's all about, G'Kar immediately gets it and humbly accepts the call to sacrifice himself and his reputation for the greater good.

    Having Bester back was nice, but he didn't really get opportunities to impress this episode.

    Something that I realized yesterday when seeing which episode is next, is that dust is basically the same stuff as red sand in Mass Effect 2. Psychic powers in Mass Effect are more telekinetic then telepathic, but otherwise it's a very similar concept. You know, "I'm a biotic god!" Given the name, I think it's directly inspired by Babylon 5. Though the idea goes further back to the spice from Dune.
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    Default Re: Yora reviews Babylon 5

    Don't really remember this episode that much, apart from the image of G'Kar's father hanging from a tree. Isn't that something relating to the legends of Odin? ISTR there was a big thing about him hanging from a tree, no idea if this is based on that.

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    Default Re: Yora reviews Babylon 5

    I think Odin hung himself upside down from the World Tree in to gain wisdom
    Last edited by comicshorse; 2020-03-09 at 02:17 PM.
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    Spoiler
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    Odin also gave an eye for wisdom.
    We are not standing on the shoulders of giants, but on very tall tower of other dwarves.

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    Default Re: Yora reviews Babylon 5

    Quote Originally Posted by Yora View Post
    S3E6: Dust to Dust

    Sherridan is called by security because a shop owner is having a poster calling for the arrest of the President in his store and refuses to remove it. Sherridan tells the security officer to sod off. Protest against the president is not sabotage against the state.
    Wait, is this the episode with the quip about a Bundt meeting? Earth Alliance being all oppressive is starting to blur together.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yora View Post
    Bester leaves the station with two other PsiCops who came to pick him up, and they have a conversation how the development of dust was a complete failure and didn't produce any real Narn telepaths.
    I thought the intended implication was that dust had been developed by the Corps decades ago for use in humans. It was deemed a failure because the effects were too unstable. (Both in terms of the telepathy being too uncontrolled to be useful and the apparent side effects.) It seems a bit out of character for PsiCorps to develop something potentially beneficial for use by the Narn. They have a pretty strict hiearchy of importance: the Corps first, other human telepaths second, humanity in general a distant third, and everybody else can sod off.

    I further seem to have an impression that the idea is that it was originally developed to be something that would enhance existing telepathic abilities, but it never worked.

    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    Don't really remember this episode that much, apart from the image of G'Kar's father hanging from a tree. Isn't that something relating to the legends of Odin? ISTR there was a big thing about him hanging from a tree, no idea if this is based on that.
    I never thought there was any more to it than Kosh trying to get G'Kar's attention by appearing as his father in his dying moments. Though that doesn't rule out an Odin parallel that I was never aware of.

    Quote Originally Posted by comicshorse View Post
    I think Odin hung himself upside down from the World Tree in to gain wisdom
    Is that in addition to plucking out his own eye for a sip of mimmisbrunnr?

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    Default Re: Yora reviews Babylon 5

    I am pretty sure Bester said "didn't produce any Narn telepaths" to the other PsiCop. Could have misheard it, but I don't know what else he could have said.

    Edit: The episode summary on the wiki talks about "creating new telepaths" in that scene. That would make a lot more sense.

    Edit 2: Hunted down the script and it says "and it hasn't produced one telepath of acceptable strength among the normal population". That's the part I misheard.
    Last edited by Yora; 2020-03-09 at 04:08 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grey Watcher View Post

    Is that in addition to plucking out his own eye for a sip of mimmisbrunnr?
    And stabbing himself with a spear
    Dude took self improvement seriously
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grey Watcher View Post
    Wait, is this the episode with the quip about a Bund meeting? Earth Alliance being all oppressive is starting to blur together.
    I just watched this episode the other night, and yeah, it is. It got a chuckle out of me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yora View Post
    Even if the Centauri started it (which actually they didn't, but this is G'Kar's mind)
    But... the Centauri did start the war. They employed a proxy to make the attack, but Londo specifically requested it of Morden. The Shadows destroyed the military forces, and Centauri occupation forces swept in on the heels of the attack. The Narn declared war in retaliation. What's more, nobody knows that the Shadows were involved in this attack. They wiped out the defenders so quickly that no record of the attack was made, and by the time Narn reinforcements arrived the Centauri were in possession of the planet. To all outside observers it was the Centauri that had invaded.

    G'Kar was correct in his belief that the Centauri started the war. He just didn't know HOW until now.


    Anyway, I love this episode. Bester and Garibaldi are comedy gold, especially the pinata line. Londo also gets a great line at the end about Vir not being able to stop G'Kar. "He would have torn you into tiny little pieces and stomped up and down on them" always makes me laugh.
    Last edited by Rodin; 2020-03-10 at 04:53 AM.

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    Default Re: Yora reviews Babylon 5

    That was much later. S1E1: Midnight on the Firing Line opened with the Narn invading a Centauri colony.

    S1E1: Midnight on the Firing Line: Narn invade Ragesh III.
    S1E13: Signs and Portents: Morden asks both Londo and G'Kar what they want.
    S1E18 A Voice in the Wildernss: Londo tells Sinclair and Delenn that war between the Centauri and Narn is inevitable because the Narn can't stop antagonizing the Centauri.
    S1E22: Crysalis: The Centauri complain that the Narn are invading Quadrant 37 and G'Kar says they are only taking back what was stolen over a hundred years earlier. The Centauri government doesn't want to be bothered and just let the Narn have it. Morden offers Londo to fix it. G'Kar tells Sinclair that the Narn have to expand their territory again. The Shadows wipe out the Narn invasion force.
    S2E9: The Coming of Shadows: The Centauri emperor comes to the station to make an offering of peace to the Narn. The Narn government agrees with G'Kar's plan to assassinate him. The emperor is dying from a heart attack and Refa needs something dramatic to take power of the Republic. Londo calls Morden to destroy the Narn colony in Quadrant 14. Refa sends ships loyal to him to take the credit for the destruction, and they run into Narn reinforcements responding to the attack. G'Kar tries to kill Londo, but Sherridan stops him.
    S2E12: Acts of Sacrifice: The Centauri start a full invasion of Narn space. Centauri and Narn start fighting on the station. G'Kar changes his strategy to gaining allies by getting sympathy for Centauri war crimes.
    S2E15: And now for a Word A Narn transport shots and destroys a Centauri freighter at the station, The Narn claim that the Centauri are illegally transporting weapons through the station, which turns out to be true. A Centauri cruiser blockades the station to enforce that Centauri ships are not getting searched. The Narn send one of their cruisers and the two destroy each other.
    S2E20: The Long, Twilight Struggle: The Narn plan to attack the Cenntauri supply depot on Gorash VII to slow down the Centauri advance and give them more time to find allies. Refa learns of this and tells Londo to have the Shadows ambush and wipe out the Narn fleet while all Centauri ships attack the undefended Narn homeworld.
    S2E22: The Fall of Night: A surviving Narn cruiser asks to hide from the Centauri at the station to repair. The Centauri find out and send a cruiser to destroy it, but Sherridan gives the Narn cover while they escape and destroys the Centauri cruiser.

    The Narn really wanted this war, at a time when the Centauri had no interest and were inclined to back down. They only changed their mind once the Shadows got involved on the Centauri side and they started losing.
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    Default Re: Yora reviews Babylon 5

    I had forgotten about Dr. Franklin, the medical guy--Doctor? Surgeon? Medical Researcher? person. How often in the series of episodes have we seen Dr. Franklin doing something medically important enough to warrant seeing him as opposed to some other individual, like a nurse or something?

    And isn't Babylon 5 understaffed considering that it is supposed to be essentially more like a small part of say Washington DC/New York City with UN building area? In comparison to something like Deep Space Nine's frontier town equilvancy? Franklin is apparently supposed to more be the admin head of a hospital like, and he is doing basic surgery and medical care.

    And Babylon 5 is supposed to be a civil project? but all of the personal that aren't the workers or the diplomats are all earth force soldiers? Shouldn't Sheridan be a civil admin type, not a military one? if Sheridan/Sinclair are both military, then shouldn't B5 be military?

    At least deep space nine never tried to claim something that it wasn't, and the Federation/Bajoran Militia run their station as more military or clearly then B5 does.

    Has the series still have no idea of what it wants B5 to actually be? A military station/outpost, or a civilian diplomatic one?
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    Default Re: Yora reviews Babylon 5

    Quote Originally Posted by Yora View Post
    ...

    G'Kar says they are only taking back what was stolen over a hundred years earlier.

    ...
    Wait, is it my imagination or is the series lore not consistent here? Because I seem to recall that it was established elsewhere that, prior to the initial Centauri conquest over a century ago, the Narn had not yet traveled beyond their native star system. Possibly they hadn't even achieved spaceflight at all yet. Which would make any claim that they're "retaking stolen territory" so obviously false as to be not worth the pretense. (I would instead expect some other excuse, like claiming they're coming in to "liberate" a third party.)

    I'm suddenly very confused here.

    But, yes, the Narn are very much presented as being the unruly aggressors in Season 1, and the faction that everyone is keeping an eye on lest their ambitions go out of control. The Centauri are their hapless victims, unable to mount a credible defense. And then the Shadows show up and flip the script.

    (There are some subtle differences. There's a reason, for example, that the Narn stick to nickle-and-diming the Empire to death with various border colonies and outposts rather than going for the throat. They know that, even with the political wind at their backs, they're not a match for the Centauri in a straight fight just yet.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yora View Post
    That was much later. S1E1: Midnight on the Firing Line opened with the Narn invading a Centauri colony.

    S1E1: Midnight on the Firing Line: Narn invade Ragesh III.
    S1E13: Signs and Portents: Morden asks both Londo and G'Kar what they want.
    S1E18 A Voice in the Wildernss: Londo tells Sinclair and Delenn that war between the Centauri and Narn is inevitable because the Narn can't stop antagonizing the Centauri.
    S1E22: Crysalis: The Centauri complain that the Narn are invading Quadrant 37 and G'Kar says they are only taking back what was stolen over a hundred years earlier. The Centauri government doesn't want to be bothered and just let the Narn have it. Morden offers Londo to fix it. G'Kar tells Sinclair that the Narn have to expand their territory again. The Shadows wipe out the Narn invasion force.
    S2E9: The Coming of Shadows: The Centauri emperor comes to the station to make an offering of peace to the Narn. The Narn government agrees with G'Kar's plan to assassinate him. The emperor is dying from a heart attack and Refa needs something dramatic to take power of the Republic. Londo calls Morden to destroy the Narn colony in Quadrant 14. Refa sends ships loyal to him to take the credit for the destruction, and they run into Narn reinforcements responding to the attack. G'Kar tries to kill Londo, but Sherridan stops him.
    S2E12: Acts of Sacrifice: The Centauri start a full invasion of Narn space. Centauri and Narn start fighting on the station. G'Kar changes his strategy to gaining allies by getting sympathy for Centauri war crimes.
    S2E15: And now for a Word A Narn transport shots and destroys a Centauri freighter at the station, The Narn claim that the Centauri are illegally transporting weapons through the station, which turns out to be true. A Centauri cruiser blockades the station to enforce that Centauri ships are not getting searched. The Narn send one of their cruisers and the two destroy each other.
    S2E20: The Long, Twilight Struggle: The Narn plan to attack the Cenntauri supply depot on Gorash VII to slow down the Centauri advance and give them more time to find allies. Refa learns of this and tells Londo to have the Shadows ambush and wipe out the Narn fleet while all Centauri ships attack the undefended Narn homeworld.
    S2E22: The Fall of Night: A surviving Narn cruiser asks to hide from the Centauri at the station to repair. The Centauri find out and send a cruiser to destroy it, but Sherridan gives the Narn cover while they escape and destroys the Centauri cruiser.

    The Narn really wanted this war, at a time when the Centauri had no interest and were inclined to back down. They only changed their mind once the Shadows got involved on the Centauri side and they started losing.
    I would still argue that the war didn't start until Coming of Shadows. Ragesh III and Quadrant 37 were escalating incidents that could have led to war. They were not the beginning of the Narn-Centauri War, any more than Germany annexing Austria was the start of World War II. The point where open hostilities broke out on a wide scale is when the war began, and it began with a full-scale Centauri invasion of Narn space.

    Let me be clear here: I'm not saying the Narn are any less to blame for the war than the Centauri. The Narn were bent on revenge and sooner or later WOULD have declared open war. The Shadows just escalated that timetable massively. My guess is that the Narn planned to slowly annex Centauri space to find out how much they could get away with while steadily building their own fleets. The Shadows smashed important military bases and forced a confrontation at a time when Narn wasn't actually ready for a full-scale war, and that's why they lost as quickly as they did.

    Thinking about the scene in question, it could even be that G'Kar is thinking about the very start of it, when the Centauri invaded and strip-mined the Narn homeworld under no provocation whatsoever. The cycle of vengeance is something that is heavily discussed in Babylon 5, and it wouldn't surprise me if that is what Kosh is referring to when he says it doesn't matter who started it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by russdm View Post
    I had forgotten about Dr. Franklin, the medical guy--Doctor? Surgeon? Medical Researcher? person. How often in the series of episodes have we seen Dr. Franklin doing something medically important enough to warrant seeing him as opposed to some other individual, like a nurse or something?
    The show never seems to quite make up its mind as to how big Franklin's staff is supposed to be. He clearly has one, since there's the occasional guest actor playing another doctor and he name drops a bunch at various points.

    Of course, the MedLab set is also absurdly small given that it's functionally equivalent to a city hospital.

    And isn't Babylon 5 understaffed considering that it is supposed to be essentially more like a small part of say Washington DC/New York City with UN building area? In comparison to something like Deep Space Nine's frontier town equilvancy? Franklin is apparently supposed to more be the admin head of a hospital like, and he is doing basic surgery and medical care.

    And Babylon 5 is supposed to be a civil project? but all of the personal that aren't the workers or the diplomats are all earth force soldiers? Shouldn't Sheridan be a civil admin type, not a military one? if Sheridan/Sinclair are both military, then shouldn't B5 be military?

    At least deep space nine never tried to claim something that it wasn't, and the Federation/Bajoran Militia run their station as more military or clearly then B5 does.

    Has the series still have no idea of what it wants B5 to actually be? A military station/outpost, or a civilian diplomatic one?
    I think that ambiguity is deliberate. Even prior to shenanigans like Night Watch, Earth Alliance has something of a xenophobic streak, so putting a soldier in a diplomat's job doesn't feel wholly implausible. It's a dumb idea, but it seems like a plausible error, given the attitude of the government. Plus there's a strong element of "speak softly and carry a big stick" to EA's policy. I think the intended implication is that they're ready, at a moment's notice, to back up their diplomacy with force if they have to.

    It's never spelled out, but I think it's a setting detail designed to reinforce that the Earth Alliance isn't nearly as idealistic as the Federation. As becomes increasingly apparent as the plot goes on.

    (Plus Star Trek has a permanent ambiguity on whether or not Starfleet is primarily a military organization or not. Sometimes it is. Sometimes it's more of a diplomatic corps with phasers, sometimes it's a collection of researches with phasers. It's sort of an all-purpose... thing.)
    Last edited by Grey Watcher; 2020-03-10 at 08:55 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grey Watcher View Post
    I think that ambiguity is deliberate. Even prior to shenanigans like Night Watch, Earth Alliance has something of a xenophobic streak, so putting a soldier in a diplomat's job doesn't feel wholly implausible. It's a dumb idea, but it seems like a plausible error, given the attitude of the government. Plus there's a strong element of "speak softly and carry a big stick" to EA's policy. I think the intended implication is that they're ready, at a moment's notice, to back up their diplomacy with force if they have to.

    It's never spelled out, but I think it's a setting detail designed to reinforce that the Earth Alliance isn't nearly as idealistic as the Federation. As becomes increasingly apparent as the plot goes on.
    It was also the military that really established Earth as a major player on the galactic stage. It was Earth's leadership and forces during the Dilgar war that got the planet to the place it is in the series as one of the Big 5 races and not just part of the 'others'
    Given this it'd seem to me unlikely the military are ever going to let anybody forget this or easily give up the influence they've earned
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodin View Post
    I would still argue that the war didn't start until Coming of Shadows. Ragesh III and Quadrant 37 were escalating incidents that could have led to war. They were not the beginning of the Narn-Centauri War, any more than Germany annexing Austria was the start of World War II. The point where open hostilities broke out on a wide scale is when the war began, and it began with a full-scale Centauri invasion of Narn space.

    Let me be clear here: I'm not saying the Narn are any less to blame for the war than the Centauri. The Narn were bent on revenge and sooner or later WOULD have declared open war. The Shadows just escalated that timetable massively. My guess is that the Narn planned to slowly annex Centauri space to find out how much they could get away with while steadily building their own fleets. The Shadows smashed important military bases and forced a confrontation at a time when Narn wasn't actually ready for a full-scale war, and that's why they lost as quickly as they did.

    Thinking about the scene in question, it could even be that G'Kar is thinking about the very start of it, when the Centauri invaded and strip-mined the Narn homeworld under no provocation whatsoever. The cycle of vengeance is something that is heavily discussed in Babylon 5, and it wouldn't surprise me if that is what Kosh is referring to when he says it doesn't matter who started it.
    That is really the whole point, and why Kosh doesn't even try to argue about it with G'Kar. You could continue this argument for ever and ever, but it really doesn't matter anymore. Evening scores of the past is unimportant when the only thing that matters is saving people in the future. And G'Kar understands it, so he pleads guilty on all charges and doesn't put up any defense for his assault on Londo.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodin View Post
    I would still argue that the war didn't start until Coming of Shadows. Ragesh III and Quadrant 37 were escalating incidents that could have led to war. They were not the beginning of the Narn-Centauri War, any more than Germany annexing Austria was the start of World War II.
    Presumably you know that's when the war canonically *did* start--the Narn declared war on the Centauri in response to the battle in Quadrant 14. And the Narn were planning to assassinate the Centauri emperor in that episode, it was only him inconsiderately dying of natural causes that prevented them doing so, so they still hardly counted as the entirely "wounded party" even then.

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    Quote Originally Posted by comicshorse View Post
    It was also the military that really established Earth as a major player on the galactic stage. It was Earth's leadership and forces during the Dilgar war that got the planet to the place it is in the series as one of the Big 5 races and not just part of the 'others'
    Given this it'd seem to me unlikely the military are ever going to let anybody forget this or easily give up the influence they've earned
    Honestly, I never really found it plausible that things played out this way. Yes, the Minbari technically surrendered, but it was pretty obvious to everyone that Earth overestimated its military prowess, overplayed its hand, and got curb-stomped for it, and only avoided extinction because the Minbari changed their mind at the last minute, for mysterious reasons. The fact that the Minbari then became pseudo-benefactors/protectors was enough to prevent the Earth from being conquered or pushed out of galactic affairs by an opportunistic power, and it makes sense that Earth was able to use that protection (and the reparations) to rebuild pretty quickly. However, by the time the series begins, Earth seemed to conducting itself as the superpower that it thought it was before it picked a fight with the Minbari.

    I also had to suspend my disbelief a bit with respect to the military culture of the Earth Alliance. In a situation like post-WWI Germany, you had a situation (Germany surrendering) where the military could plausibly argue that their loss didn't reflect a lack of ability. Or in something like the Russo-Japanese war, where the military suffers a one-sided defeat that's clearly a result of their own deficiencies, but then correcting those deficiencies and rebuilding it stronger feeds into a powerful narrative and a strong military culture.

    The Earth-Minbari war really didn't seem like the sort of situation where that sort of unchecked jingoism could survive unscathed the way it did. There was no "betrayal" by political leaders you could scapegoat like Germany did. Earth's government, economy, and population were 100% mobilized to fight the Minbari, and they still lost. The whole situation revealed the significant military mismatch between Earth's military and one of the stronger powers, as well as gaping deficiencies in their intelligence--evident in how they blundered through first contact and were genuinely surprised by said military mismatch. Plus, the war was recent enough that anybody who survived the Battle of the Line without crippling PTSD or leaving EarthForce forever has probably been promoted a few times and occupying one of the many positions of power left vacant by the war. Earth was rebuilding its military and trying hard to improve its technology, but clearly it wasn't remotely close to closing the technology gap with the Minbari.

    So it just doesn't make sense to me that Earth's military--probably disproportionately lead by officers who watched hubris kill most of the people they served with--would keep swinging its big stick around the way it was in the series. I can absolutely believe that bitterness and resentment festering, and a strong faction of EarthForce working desperately to acquire any technology they can to avoid being helpless against the Minbari again--and maybe even taking revenge one day. I just don't find it believable that those guys would keep sticking their heads out, inviting fights with unknown adversaries, well before they reach that point.
    Last edited by Xyril; 2020-03-10 at 02:15 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Xyril View Post
    Honestly, I never really found it plausible that things played out this way. Yes, the Minbari technically surrendered, but it was pretty obvious to everyone that Earth overestimated its military prowess, overplayed its hand, and got curb-stomped for it, and only avoided extinction because the Minbari changed their mind at the last minute, for mysterious reasons. The fact that the Minbari then became pseudo-benefactors/protectors was enough to prevent the Earth from being conquered or pushed out of galactic affairs by an opportunistic power, and it makes sense that Earth was able to use that protection (and the reparations) to rebuild pretty quickly. However, by the time the series begins, Earth seemed to conducting itself as the superpower that it thought it was before it picked a fight with the Minbari.
    I never mentioned the Minbari I was referring to the conflict against the Dilgar

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    Quote Originally Posted by comicshorse View Post
    I never mentioned the Minbari I was referring to the conflict against the Dilgar

    https://babylon5.fandom.com/wiki/Dilgar_War
    Yes, and the Minbari war happened after the Dilgar.

    In fact, one of the ironic lines from the movie was basically, "We handled the Dilgar, we can handle the Minbari."

    What I find implausible is how the Earth Alliance acts in the early part of Babylon 5. Essentially, they act like the same cocky upstart power who came in and surprised everyone by (largely) single-handed handling a power that was threatening the entire League of Non-Aligned Worlds. The Earth-Minbari War (or more accurately, the extended one-sided massacre of humanity with the exception of Sheridan's one victory and maybe some minor ground engagements where humans came out ahead) really should have made them rethink their attitude toward foreign policy.

    IIRC, despite being largely isolationist with regard to interstellar politics, the Minbari did traditionally protect smaller civilizations living within or near their borders, and it was pretty much dumb luck that Earth directly attacked the Minbari before triggering a slightly less serious conflict by infringing on one of these allies somehow. As the series progressed, it became clear that Earth really couldn't assume that the Vorlons and the Minbari were the only civilizations that hopefully outclassed them, or that some seemingly helpless civilization might not have more powerful friends. And yet Earth foreign policy in the first seasons of B5 is basically "We beat the Dilgar and we can beat anyone else, come at me bro!"--as if nobody learned anything from the Minbari war.

    Which, just to address your reply and clarify again, is relevant because it happened after the Dilgar war and thus should have some relevance to how EarthForce acts after both wars. It's like France being all cocky because of Napoleon's early victories even after Waterloo.
    Last edited by Xyril; 2020-03-10 at 02:30 PM.

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