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  1. - Top - End - #571
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    Default Re: Yora reviews Babylon 5

    Quote Originally Posted by Xyril View Post
    ...as if nobody learned anything from the Minbari war.
    I've always gathered, from the likes of "And the Sky Full of Stars" or "And Now for a Word," that the civilians (and younger members of the military) have a very different understanding of the War than the people who actually fought in it. That the Minbari surrender had something to do with Earth putting up exactly enough resistance to stop them. It's stupid, but 10 years does seem like a plausible amount of time for a completely incorrect "conventional wisdom" explanation to get entrenched in the public eye.

    That and the Minbari tactic of "kill the warriors first, then fan back out and get everybody else" meant the war wasn't as devastating economically as it would've otherwise been, so civilians in general were isolated from the consequences.

    I guess to me it seems plausible that a jingoistic faction could sweep in and insist that the last 10 years have been so awesome that it would totally go down differently if it happened again today because WOO-HOO! WE'RE NUMBER ONE! :waves foam finger:

  2. - Top - End - #572
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    Default Re: Yora reviews Babylon 5

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey Watcher View Post
    I've always gathered, from the likes of "And the Sky Full of Stars" or "And Now for a Word," that the civilians (and younger members of the military) have a very different understanding of the War than the people who actually fought in it. That the Minbari surrender had something to do with Earth putting up exactly enough resistance to stop them. It's stupid, but 10 years does seem like a plausible amount of time for a completely incorrect "conventional wisdom" explanation to get entrenched in the public eye.
    There's a season 1 episode where some people are trying to find out what Sinclair knows about how the war ended, and I'm pretty sure one of the possibilities they say to him is that the Minbari scanned his mind, found out how heavily defended Earth was, and decided they couldn't win the battle, hence the surrender. Complete cobblers, of course, but this guy appeared to genuinely believe that was a possibility.

    I think the idea Earth would be taken down by an "opportunistic superpower" after the war doesn't fit with what we see. The only younger race superpowers who could reasonably attempt such a thing are the Minbari, who already surrendered, and the Centauri, who don't care enough to do so. The Narn are too weak*, and after the Dilgar war, the entire League of Non-Aligned Worlds would definitely be on the side of helping Earth out, not taking them down.

    * I'm basing this on what happens in the show. We're told the Earth Alliance held out for 2 years against the Minbari. The Narn lasted barely six months against the Centauri, and while the remnants of their fleet was destroyed by the Shadows at Gorash VII, it was only there in a desperate last-ditch attempt to turn the tide of a war they were losing comprehensively.

  3. - Top - End - #573
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    Default Re: Yora reviews Babylon 5

    " After a war there will always be people saying it would have gone differently if they'd been in charge "

    (damned if I can remember which character in B5 said that though)
    Last edited by comicshorse; 2020-03-10 at 03:52 PM.
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  4. - Top - End - #574
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    Default Re: Yora reviews Babylon 5

    Quote Originally Posted by comicshorse View Post
    " After a war there will always be people saying it would have gone differently if they'd been in charge "
    The funny thing is they're right.
    I mean in most cases it would've gone worse, but that still counts, right?
    Last edited by Kantaki; 2020-03-10 at 03:47 PM.
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  5. - Top - End - #575
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    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    I think the idea Earth would be taken down by an "opportunistic superpower" after the war doesn't fit with what we see. The only younger race superpowers who could reasonably attempt such a thing are the Minbari, who already surrendered, and the Centauri, who don't care enough to do so. The Narn are too weak*, and after the Dilgar war, the entire League of Non-Aligned Worlds would definitely be on the side of helping Earth out, not taking them down.
    If you're referring to my comment, I actually meant to say some minor power, and not even some superpower. Remember the the Centauri-Narn war, once your ships and orbital defenses are gone, all it really takes is rocks and gravity to devastate the population and economy below.

    But you're right, there's really nobody who would want finish Earth off at that point except for the Shadows and their allies, the cost of revealing themselves early would certainly far outweigh any benefit from eliminating a potential threat. (And really, the only reason they would see Earth as even a minor potential threat at that point would be if they were aware of Valen's pronouncements about humans being important to the next great war and took it seriously.)

    * I'm basing this on what happens in the show. We're told the Earth Alliance held out for 2 years against the Minbari. The Narn lasted barely six months against the Centauri, and while the remnants of their fleet was destroyed by the Shadows at Gorash VII, it was only there in a desperate last-ditch attempt to turn the tide of a war they were losing comprehensively.
    That's a fair point, although proximity* (assuming there's some analog to this in the B5 hyperspace system) might have made a difference as well. It sounded like Earth was just beginning to expand its influence near Minbari territory, meaning that the Minbari would also be struggling against long supply lines and the need to completely wipe out the worlds that would soon be behind their front lines, whereas I always got the sense the the Narn victims of their own proximity to the Centauri, making that a might briefer, bloodier war. Also, because the Narn's expansion was in part motivated by revenge, I am guessing that most of their conquests were pushing their borders closer and closer to the Centauri home world.

    I've always had the sense that the Narn--with energy weapons and artificial gravity, and more time to scavenge/buy/steal tech from more advanced races--had a technological edge over Earth but were weaker economically because of their recent enslavement, and because they were focusing their resources more on annexing territory rather than rebuilding their technological base. Strategically, if they wanted to take down Earth, doing so right after the Minbari devastated their fleets and industry would only time they might succeed. But you're right--they'd see no reason to do so, since the Narn were the only ones to even covertly help Earth during the war.

  6. - Top - End - #576
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    Default Re: Yora reviews Babylon 5

    Quote Originally Posted by Xyril View Post
    I've always had the sense that the Narn--with energy weapons and artificial gravity, and more time to scavenge/buy/steal tech from more advanced races--had a technological edge over Earth but were weaker economically because of their recent enslavement, and because they were focusing their resources more on annexing territory rather than rebuilding their technological base. Strategically, if they wanted to take down Earth, doing so right after the Minbari devastated their fleets and industry would only time they might succeed. But you're right--they'd see no reason to do so, since the Narn were the only ones to even covertly help Earth during the war.
    The Narn don't actually have artificial gravity. Whenever you see the Narn aboard their cruisers everyone is strapped into their seats. They operate entirely in zero-G, similar to smaller Earth vessels that don't have the rotating section.

    IIRC, the only younger races confirmed to have artificial gravity are the Centauri and the Minbari. I think even the Minbari only have it on their largest ships, as one of the features touted about the White Star is the artificial gravity in such a small ship.

    It's another subtle thing that shows how powerful the Centauri actually are - they have everyone outclassed technologically other than the Minbari and the elder races.

  7. - Top - End - #577
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grey Watcher View Post
    Wait, is it my imagination or is the series lore not consistent here? Because I seem to recall that it was established elsewhere that, prior to the initial Centauri conquest over a century ago, the Narn had not yet traveled beyond their native star system. Possibly they hadn't even achieved spaceflight at all yet. Which would make any claim that they're "retaking stolen territory" so obviously false as to be not worth the pretense. (I would instead expect some other excuse, like claiming they're coming in to "liberate" a third party.)

    I'm suddenly very confused here.
    Maybe while they were occupying Narn, the Centauri transported Narn slaves to develop other systems. That would give G'kar a reason to believe those other systems were rightfully Narn.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xyril
    What I find implausible is how the Earth Alliance acts in the early part of Babylon 5. Essentially, they act like the same cocky upstart power who came in and surprised everyone by (largely) single-handed handling a power that was threatening the entire League of Non-Aligned Worlds. The Earth-Minbari War (or more accurately, the extended one-sided massacre of humanity with the exception of Sheridan's one victory and maybe some minor ground engagements where humans came out ahead) really should have made them rethink their attitude toward foreign policy.
    Did the Earth Alliance really have that much swagger after the Earth-Minbari War? They signed a non-aggression pact with the Centauri even when it meant basically signing the rest of the galaxy over to the Centauri. That's not the same Earth Alliance that confidently took on the Dilgar and Minbari. Appeasement on that scale is the mark of a nation that is absolutely terrified of getting into a fight with one of the galaxy's major powers.

  8. - Top - End - #578
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    Default Re: Yora reviews Babylon 5

    Quote Originally Posted by Xyril View Post
    Honestly, I never really found it plausible that things played out this way. Yes, the Minbari technically surrendered, but it was pretty obvious to everyone that Earth overestimated its military prowess, overplayed its hand, and got curb-stomped for it, and only avoided extinction because the Minbari changed their mind at the last minute, for mysterious reasons. The fact that the Minbari then became pseudo-benefactors/protectors was enough to prevent the Earth from being conquered or pushed out of galactic affairs by an opportunistic power, and it makes sense that Earth was able to use that protection (and the reparations) to rebuild pretty quickly. However, by the time the series begins, Earth seemed to conducting itself as the superpower that it thought it was before it picked a fight with the Minbari.
    As I recall, the Earth Alliance did not "pick a fight" with the Minbari, and didn't want a war. A single Earth Alliance commander misunderstood a cultural practice of the Minbari that he didn't know about, acted appropriately for his mistaken understanding of the situation, and this happened to result in the death of the highly respected and beloved overall leader of the Minbari government, which the Minbari then sought vengeance for.

    Specifically, the Minbari traditionally powered up their ships' weapons as a sign of respect when meeting another ship where a gesture of respect is warranted. The Minbari leader went to personally greet the humans in his ship, and gave the traditional gesture of respect. The Earth Alliance commander got a sensor report that the Minbari ship was powering its weapons, and immediately concluded that they were preparing to fire - a reasonable and sensible conclusion by human practices and any other races they met earlier. Believing that combat was imminent, he struck first, and with the advantage of surprise he managed to destroy the Minbari ship, killing its crew and commander.
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  9. - Top - End - #579
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    Default Re: Yora reviews Babylon 5

    Quote Originally Posted by Douglas View Post
    As I recall, the Earth Alliance did not "pick a fight" with the Minbari, and didn't want a war.
    I think Xyril is referring to the stated reason for the Earth Alliance being in Minbari space in the first place, which we see discussed in "In the Beginning"--namely, they wanted to assess if the Minbari were a threat to Earth and its expansion plans. So, they sent warships in to check things out rather than, as would have been more sensible, a diplomatic mission. As Londo says in that movie, "Ah! Arrogance and stupidity all in the same package, how efficient of you!".

    I mean, Earth knew--or should have known, if they had any sense--that they weren't a match for the Centauri, and the Centauri ambassador is right there telling them that the Centauri didn't mess with the Minbari even at the height of their power. To send warships in *was* the height of arrogance and stupidity.

  10. - Top - End - #580
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    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    I mean, Earth knew--or should have known, if they had any sense--that they weren't a match for the Centauri, and the Centauri ambassador is right there telling them that the Centauri didn't mess with the Minbari even at the height of their power. To send warships in *was* the height of arrogance and stupidity.
    Earth had pretty good reason for not taking what Londo told them at face value since: 1) the Centauri are a rival power who might have their own reasons for not wanting Earth to contact the Minbari and 2) the very first thing the Centauri ever told Earth (that Earth was a lost Centauri colony) was a massive lie.

  11. - Top - End - #581
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    Quote Originally Posted by bguy View Post
    Earth had pretty good reason for not taking what Londo told them at face value since: 1) the Centauri are a rival power who might have their own reasons for not wanting Earth to contact the Minbari and 2) the very first thing the Centauri ever told Earth (that Earth was a lost Centauri colony) was a massive lie.
    They called him in deliberately to ask him for information on the Minbari. To do that but then dismiss his advice to his face would kinda defeat the purpose of doing that.
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  12. - Top - End - #582
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    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    I think Xyril is referring to the stated reason for the Earth Alliance being in Minbari space in the first place, which we see discussed in "In the Beginning"--namely, they wanted to assess if the Minbari were a threat to Earth and its expansion plans. So, they sent warships in to check things out rather than, as would have been more sensible, a diplomatic mission.
    Pretty much this, precisely. The whole context of the mission was pretty much as aggressive and militaristic as a technically non-military mission could be. IIRC , even other EarthForce officers thought that the commander of that mission had too much of an aggressive temperament for a recon/first contact mission, yet Earth specifically picked him. After their "diplomatic" fleet was safely away from direct danger--even if you assume, as Earth apparently did, that they were easily a match for the Minbari--the smart thing to do would have been to immediately start to attempt deescalation, or at least to try establishing contact again. Instead, Earth was pretty much taking a victory lap, celebrating at home and bragging to the other powers pretty much right until the Minbari started retaliating.

    If you've had longtime, stable borders with someone who you don't have the best relationship with, then moving military forces near those borders in response to various events is pretty much par for the course. If some distant country who's been annexing territory left and right suddenly marches their army up to your territory and says, "Hi, we're diplomats," it feels like much more of an aggressive act.

    Quote Originally Posted by Daimbert View Post
    They called him in deliberately to ask him for information on the Minbari. To do that but then dismiss his advice to his face would kinda defeat the purpose of doing that.
    Not to mention diplomatically self-defeating for no real benefit. I can see one random guy asking someone a question, fully intending to ignoring any answer that doesn't fit with his preconceived notions. However, there's something seriously stupid and bro ken about the military/political leadership that would call in an ally's--admittedly, a dodgy ally, but an ally nonetheless--ambassador into a meeting where at best he validates a plan that's already been decided on, and at worst he gives contradicting advice/information, and your representative is openly dismissive of him. Even if they planned to take anything Londo said with a grain of salt, there was no need for Earth's representative to be openly dismissive of him to his face, nor for that matter to come back later to gloat about their "victory" over their Minbari and how the Centauri were afraid to challenge them even at the height of their power.
    Last edited by Xyril; 2020-03-11 at 11:45 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bguy View Post
    Did the Earth Alliance really have that much swagger after the Earth-Minbari War? They signed a non-aggression pact with the Centauri even when it meant basically signing the rest of the galaxy over to the Centauri. That's not the same Earth Alliance that confidently took on the Dilgar and Minbari. Appeasement on that scale is the mark of a nation that is absolutely terrified of getting into a fight with one of the galaxy's major powers.
    This always struck me as less Munich agreement and more Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact: It was less about Earth being afraid of the Centauri the way Chamberlain was afraid of Germany, and more about the two expansionist powers pledging to stay out of each other's way as they carved up the galaxy like Poland.

  14. - Top - End - #584
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xyril View Post
    This always struck me as less Munich agreement and more Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact: It was less about Earth being afraid of the Centauri the way Chamberlain was afraid of Germany, and more about the two expansionist powers pledging to stay out of each other's way as they carved up the galaxy like Poland.
    Actually, it was probably more non-interventionist, given the negotiator's explicit comments and the constant hints that Earth was becoming more insular and wanted to stay out of alien wars and affairs, as well as reduce alien influence. By making that pact with the Centauri, they had a perfect excuse to stay out of any of the conflicts the Centauri were involved in, meaning that even League members couldn't push them into a war. This then leaves them free to "solve" their internal problems like Mars.
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    S3E7: Exogenesis

    Oh boy, here we go...

    Two humans are watching as a transport is unloaded. You can tell they are gangsters by the man's beard. Everyone with these beards on the show are criminals. They put an alien insect on a guy's back that causes him incredible pain. In the next scene guy is passed out, the insect is gone, and clearly something went wrong, but a third gangster comes to tell them that security is coming and they run away.

    Franklin and Garibaldi are asking Ivanova why she didn't invite Marcus to Lieutenant Corvin's promotion party, and she thought that this was an event for officers and their friends. The other two think she should have invited Marcus because he's one of them now.
    Later Sherridan takes Ivanova aside because now that he's been promoted, Corvin has access to more sensitive information and might find out about their secret activities. So he wants her to find out if Corvin can be let in on their conspiracy or if they have to make sure he doesn't discover it himself.

    Marcus is meeting with his informants on the station in a dingy bar in Brown Sector but notices that one of them hasn't shown up to report. So he decides to go looking for him and the bearded gangster seems to follow him.

    Franklin does an autopsy on the man who was killed by the gangsters and discovers a strange growth around his spine. He cuts him open and finds some kind of parasite that apparently does not depend on the specific biology of its victims.

    Marcus finds his informant who is hanging out with the gangsters and some other people and is telling him that he can't continue to work with him and is busy with other things, and acting rather strange.
    He goes to see a homeless friend at a flea market in Brown Sector but he's not there and the trader next to his spot says he just packed up and left.

    Ivanova invites Corvin to come to her quarters after work for a private conversation, and being the guy he is, he agrees to come but is also weirded out by it.

    Marcus goes to Garibaldi to report that people in Brown Sector are acting strange and are disappearing, but Garibaldi tells him not to worry because this is completely normal, since the people living in Brown Sector are there because they aren't normal. Marcus is offended by this attitude about the homeless, but Garibaldi says as long as no crime is committed, it's not his business. If Marcus is worried about the mental state of his friends, he should talk to a doctor about it.
    So Marcus goes to Franklin and asks him to come with him to Brown Sector to take a look at some people because he fears there's something going on affecting their minds. Since Franklin has nothing pressing to do while the computer analyses the parasite, he agrees to go with him.

    They go to the quarters of Marcus' friend, but he doesn't respond to the doorbell. Since he's an old man in poor health, Franklin agrees to override the door lock to take a look inside, and as soon as it open Marcus runs inside to search for clues. Franklin is not allowed to just walk into people's quarters, but Marcus says that doesn't apply to him.
    A few moments later Marcus calls him to come inside, since he discovered a hole that was torn in the wall and covered in cobwebs. They find a man on the floor with a parasite moving under his skin on his spine. Before they can do anything, they are surrounded by the other strange people and locked in a cell. Franklin thinks the parasites are aliens looking for puppet bodies, but Marcus wonders why they would go after homeless people who have no resources or influence.
    Franklin tries to talk to the other people to let him help the man on the floor, but they all just look at him without replying. Eventually the bearded man comes over and tells Franklin that they will stay in the cell until they are done with their work and then leaves.

    Marcus' friend comes to the room where they are held and explains in a great mood that his health problems and depression are gone and that they are all happier now with the parasites. The one man who ended up dead only died because the drugs in his body harmed the parasite and they never meant to harm anyone. They also need help from Franklin and Marcus, and if they refuse others might die as well.

    Corbin has a weird meeting with Ivanova, thinking that she's hitting on him.

    The bearded man comes back to take Franklin and takes him to another man who is dying. He says Franklin has to save him, and removing the parasite is not acceptable.
    Marcus tells his two guards that one of the things they took from their pockets is a medical device that they need to bring to Franklin. He tricks one of them to turn it on, and he knocks himself out with what turns out to be a telescoping staff. He quickly knocks out the other man standing next to his cell and takes his keys to get out. He then takes Franklin's communicator to call security, but the communictor tells him he's not an authorized user and should contact security.
    Fortunately, the computer made an automated report of unauthorized use of Franklin's communicator in Brown Sector and Ivanova calls Garibaldi to send a security team.

    Marcus goes to save Franklin, which ends up in a standoff. His friend and the bearded guy explain that they are ancient aliens and need humanoid bodies to travel the galaxy. They know it sounds dodgy and that's why they keep it all secrets while they are looking for volunteers looking for a better life with them. Franklin and Marcus don't believe them because they are clearly being controlled by the aliens who can just make them say whatever they want. So Marcus' friend decides to sacrifice himself by having his alien leave his body. He again tells them that the aliens are friendly and offering great lives to people with no perspective. The bearded man says that they have huge amount of knowledge from many ages, and want to preserve this knowledge through the dark ages that lie ahead, to share it with others when the time comes to rebuild civilizations.
    Franklin starts to believe them, but demands that the remaining aliens are given to new people in medlab, where he can make sure the volunteers have no health issues that could lead to complications and they truly know what they are agreeing to.
    Marcus' friend would probably not survive having an alien attach to his brain again, but he still has his improved health and wants to use his remaining years to see the wonders of the universe.

    Ivanova tells Sherridan that Corvin probably is not a good candidate for their conspiracy.

    --

    Well, this wasn't that bad! It actually wasn't even average bad. This is a pretty decent episode. I actually quite enjoyed it. It could have been an alien of the week episode in Star Trek and perhaps the time slot could have been used for something better, but that applies to a lot of episodes on this show. As aliens of the week go, I think this is even one of the better one's I've come across.

    I was never much of a fan of Marcus, but this episode he's pretty good. You can clearly see how other people may find him an annoying person, but in this episode he does enough serious things on his own to balance it out very well. In D&D, this character would clearly be a bard.
    Franklin also shows a pretty good performance together with him. Franklin is another character I'm not really fond of because he often seems superfluous. Either the writers improved writing for him, or the actor improved selling the character. But I also think that Marcus might simply be a good counterpart to give him something to react to. Ivanova and Garibaldi can also be difficult any annoying when they want to, but I feel Franklin's character doesn't really lend himself to good comebacks. They don't let anyone talk back. Marcus on the other hand really appreciates some verbal sparring in good fun.

    What surprised me a bit was Garibaldi saying he really doesn't care about the situation of the homeless in Brown Sector. It is needed here to allow for Marcus to react offended and make a case for compassion towards the poor. ill, and mentally sick that live there. But in the past, Garibaldi used to take a very similar position himself. He has shown to have great understanding for the situation of the homeless and applies the law in ways that make it easier for them to surive, and always talked to them in ways that show that he cared about them. I always thought that was a nice balancing element to his macho tough guy behavior when dealing with real criminals.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yora View Post
    S3E7: Exogenesis

    I was never much of a fan of Marcus, but this episode he's pretty good. You can clearly see how other people may find him an annoying person, but in this episode he does enough serious things on his own to balance it out very well. In D&D, this character would clearly be a bard.
    He's participating!

    Quote Originally Posted by Yora View Post
    Franklin also shows a pretty good performance together with him. Franklin is another character I'm not really fond of because he often seems superfluous. Either the writers improved writing for him, or the actor improved selling the character. But I also think that Marcus might simply be a good counterpart to give him something to react to. Ivanova and Garibaldi can also be difficult any annoying when they want to, but I feel Franklin's character doesn't really lend himself to good comebacks. They don't let anyone talk back. Marcus on the other hand really appreciates some verbal sparring in good fun.
    I don't think I ever consciously realized how much Franklin comes into his own as a character with Marcus in the picture. Like you, I don't know if it's that Marcus's dialogue skews much more to "lighthearted banter" than the rest of the cast or just a function of Richard Biggs and Jason Carter having good chemistry together. But either way, it's a good change.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bguy View Post
    What really spooks me about this episode isn't the death of personality punishment itself but how quickly it is imposed with the guy who murdered Brother Theo already being convicted and mind wiped just a couple of weeks after the original offense. What kind of kangaroo court system is the Earth Alliance running where that is possible? Do they not have an appeals process? And yeah I get that the guy pled guilty and apparently didn't even try to contest the punishment, but even so that is an insanely short time frame for imposing a capital sentence. No defense attorney could possibly be prepared to competently represent a client facing a capital sentence that quickly, so even if the defendant insisted on pleading guilty, accepting a maximum sentence and waiving all appeals, the defense attorney would be screaming bloody murder (and filing every motion they could think of) to slow the process down, so they have time to actually investigate the case and find out if their client is even mentally competent to waive his rights.
    Don't assume they follow a justice system that currently exists. I can certainly see the argument that if someone pleads guilty you move straight to sentencing. And given that they use telepaths in the punishment phase, it's also not unrealistic to assume they are used in determining guilt. He says he did it, the telepath says he did it, so wipe him and move on.

    Quote Originally Posted by JMS
    Yes, B5 has a court system, authorized by the Earth Alliance Judicial System, to conduct trials of this sort (which we've seen before). And in this case, again, there wasn't a trial per se as Ivanova noted; he pleaded guilty from the start, quite proud of what he'd done. So all that remained was the sentencing.
    Incidentally, this is an episode that probably wouldn't have happened if a fan hadn't allowed it.

    Quote Originally Posted by JMS
    On another service, someone without considering what he was saying (not his fault, it just happened) said, in essence, "What if somebody on B5 found out that he had been mind-wiped, and used to be something awful previously?" Well, I'd had "Passing Through Gethsemane" on the wire at that time, but when I saw this, I had to scuttle the story. It lay there, untouched, for over a year, until I could finally meet the fellow and get a signed release indicating what'd happened. If that fan had not been fair and reasonable, that episode -- which many consider one of our best -- would never have been made.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rodin View Post
    But... the Centauri did start the war. They employed a proxy to make the attack, but Londo specifically requested it of Morden. The Shadows destroyed the military forces, and Centauri occupation forces swept in on the heels of the attack. The Narn declared war in retaliation. What's more, nobody knows that the Shadows were involved in this attack. They wiped out the defenders so quickly that no record of the attack was made, and by the time Narn reinforcements arrived the Centauri were in possession of the planet. To all outside observers it was the Centauri that had invaded.

    G'Kar was correct in his belief that the Centauri started the war. He just didn't know HOW until now.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yora View Post
    That was much later. S1E1: Midnight on the Firing Line opened with the Narn invading a Centauri colony.

    S1E1: Midnight on the Firing Line: Narn invade Ragesh III.
    S1E13: Signs and Portents: Morden asks both Londo and G'Kar what they want.
    S1E18 A Voice in the Wildernss: Londo tells Sinclair and Delenn that war between the Centauri and Narn is inevitable because the Narn can't stop antagonizing the Centauri.
    S1E22: Crysalis: The Centauri complain that the Narn are invading Quadrant 37 and G'Kar says they are only taking back what was stolen over a hundred years earlier. The Centauri government doesn't want to be bothered and just let the Narn have it. Morden offers Londo to fix it. G'Kar tells Sinclair that the Narn have to expand their territory again. The Shadows wipe out the Narn invasion force.
    S2E9: The Coming of Shadows: The Centauri emperor comes to the station to make an offering of peace to the Narn. The Narn government agrees with G'Kar's plan to assassinate him. The emperor is dying from a heart attack and Refa needs something dramatic to take power of the Republic. Londo calls Morden to destroy the Narn colony in Quadrant 14. Refa sends ships loyal to him to take the credit for the destruction, and they run into Narn reinforcements responding to the attack. G'Kar tries to kill Londo, but Sherridan stops him.
    S2E12: Acts of Sacrifice: The Centauri start a full invasion of Narn space. Centauri and Narn start fighting on the station. G'Kar changes his strategy to gaining allies by getting sympathy for Centauri war crimes.
    All this really depends on what you consider "starting the war" to mean.

    If you want to count border skirmishing, then the Narn started it with the invasion of Ragesh III.

    if you want to count truly significant military action, then the Centauri started it by having the Shadows destroy the colony in Quad 14, and then moving in to occupy.

    And if you want to look at it based on formality, then the Narn started it when they declared war after the Quad 14 incident.

    (My personal opinion is that the Centauri are the ones turning it from skirmishes to outright war, but YMMV).

    Quote Originally Posted by russdm View Post
    And Babylon 5 is supposed to be a civil project? but all of the personal that aren't the workers or the diplomats are all earth force soldiers? Shouldn't Sheridan be a civil admin type, not a military one? if Sheridan/Sinclair are both military, then shouldn't B5 be military?

    At least deep space nine never tried to claim something that it wasn't, and the Federation/Bajoran Militia run their station as more military or clearly then B5 does.

    Has the series still have no idea of what it wants B5 to actually be? A military station/outpost, or a civilian diplomatic one?
    The answer to your question is Yes. It's supposed to be both to some degree.

    it's also important to remember that a military man was originally in charge as well (Sinclair), and was insisted on by the Minbari. There are those in Earthforce who didn't like the Minbari's influence over the pick, so appointing Sheridan is a pointed reminder that Earth gets to decide who runs its operations. Sheridan refers to himself as a military governor, and that's what he is. He is the head of the B5 "government", but also has jurisdiction over the military forces in his area. They are often used in occupied territory (General Douglas MacArthur was the military governor of japan from 1945 - 1951), but can be used in the nation's own territory or area of influence (General Arthur MacArthur was military governor of the Philippines.

    Basically they are used where you want one person making all the decisions (diplomatic AND military). Whether that's the best way to handle B5....
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    Quote Originally Posted by tomandtish View Post
    Sheridan refers to himself as a military governor, and that's what he is. He is the head of the B5 "government", but also has jurisdiction over the military forces in his area.
    It's worth noting: in the season 1 episode where the Great Machine is first revealed, the captain of the Hyperion cruiser gets into a bit of a spat with Sinclair about who decides what's happening with the machine; the captain outranks Sinclair and thinks he should have the final word, whereas Sinclair argues that he's the military commander of B5 and gets to decide what happens in the station and the space around it. As I recall, word comes from Earth at the end of the episode that Sinclair is correct and he does have the final say, even though the Hyperion's captain is senior. One assumes this is still the situation when Sheridan takes over.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grey Watcher View Post
    Of course, the MedLab set is also absurdly small given that it's functionally equivalent to a city hospital.
    At some later point Franklin refers to other medlabs on the station which makes it a bit better, though it's still fairly ridiculous since you would naturally expect Medlab One to be the biggest facility...

    Quote Originally Posted by Douglas View Post
    Specifically, the Minbari traditionally powered up their ships' weapons as a sign of respect when meeting another ship where a gesture of respect is warranted. The Minbari leader went to personally greet the humans in his ship, and gave the traditional gesture of respect. The Earth Alliance commander got a sensor report that the Minbari ship was powering its weapons, and immediately concluded that they were preparing to fire - a reasonable and sensible conclusion by human practices and any other races they met earlier. Believing that combat was imminent, he struck first, and with the advantage of surprise he managed to destroy the Minbari ship, killing its crew and commander.
    To be a little more precise, what's said is that the ship is approaching with 'gun ports open', which is plausibly not quite the same as weapons powered up. And the issue was that the Earth ship's scanners were unable to determine if the weapons were actually targeting anything, which the captain interpreted as the Minbari deliberately jamming them, thus the decision to open fire.

    Quote Originally Posted by Daimbert View Post
    They called him in deliberately to ask him for information on the Minbari. To do that but then dismiss his advice to his face would kinda defeat the purpose of doing that.
    That is absolutely true, but that is in fact what they did.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thufir View Post
    At some later point Franklin refers to other medlabs on the station which makes it a bit better, though it's still fairly ridiculous since you would naturally expect Medlab One to be the biggest facility...
    Or, as it generally contains the Chief of Staff, it might be the most specialized one for the cases that he'd generally deal with. You wouldn't put the Chief of Staff's office, for example, in the middle of a general ward, because he's not likely to be dealing with those cases much and the chaos would be distracting.

    To be a little more precise, what's said is that the ship is approaching with 'gun ports open', which is plausibly not quite the same as weapons powered up. And the issue was that the Earth ship's scanners were unable to determine if the weapons were actually targeting anything, which the captain interpreted as the Minbari deliberately jamming them, thus the decision to open fire.
    It's explicitly the case that they aren't powered in that case. In one episode -- I think the one where the great warleader's body is stolen -- a Minbari ship approaches that way, Sinclair is alarmed, and Delenn explains that and asks them to note that the weapons aren't powered. In the case that started the Earth-Minbari war, the Minbari scanners and ECM were screwing up the Earth Alliance forces scanners enough that they couldn't tell, and their systems in general were getting screwed up enough that it was interpreted as an attack.

    That is absolutely true, but that is in fact what they did.
    The original comment, though, was about not trusting what the Centauri say because they lied to them from the start. You don't call in the Centauri ambassador if that's going to be your attitude towards what he says. Here, they do seem to have called him in with the intent to listen to what he had to say, but when he stepped on their pride they reacted badly to it, with the arrogance and ignorance that he accused them of.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daimbert View Post
    Or, as it generally contains the Chief of Staff, it might be the most specialized one for the cases that he'd generally deal with. You wouldn't put the Chief of Staff's office, for example, in the middle of a general ward, because he's not likely to be dealing with those cases much and the chaos would be distracting.
    A decent explanation, though it still feels a bit odd that, for example, he's called into set Ivanova's broken ankle. Yes, she's command staff and therefore a VIP, but it still feels weird to call in the head of the hospital for something that a layperson could do with a little bit of training. (Yes, you want a doctor, nurse, or similar nearby in case there's some unforseen complication, but still.) Stuff like operating on Kosh or finding a cure for Drafa makes sense to call in the Chief of Staff to handle personally. Livesaving care for the Chief of Security after he's been shot, plausible. But routine stuff like a broken bone or a dietary plan? (Of course, short of a show like Scrubs or M*A*S*H, where the medical facility IS the whole show, condensing an entire medical staff into one person is pretty common because it's fewer characters for the audience to keep track of and fewer actors to pay.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grey Watcher View Post
    A decent explanation, though it still feels a bit odd that, for example, he's called into set Ivanova's broken ankle. Yes, she's command staff and therefore a VIP, but it still feels weird to call in the head of the hospital for something that a layperson could do with a little bit of training. (Yes, you want a doctor, nurse, or similar nearby in case there's some unforseen complication, but still.) Stuff like operating on Kosh or finding a cure for Drafa makes sense to call in the Chief of Staff to handle personally. Livesaving care for the Chief of Security after he's been shot, plausible. But routine stuff like a broken bone or a dietary plan? (Of course, short of a show like Scrubs or M*A*S*H, where the medical facility IS the whole show, condensing an entire medical staff into one person is pretty common because it's fewer characters for the audience to keep track of and fewer actors to pay.)
    Him treating the Command Staff, though, would also be a matter of ensuring that they get the very best treatment available AND with him being the only doctor who has the authority to tell them what to do. As shown with the food plan. None of them liked it, but Franklin would have the authority to flat-out order them to do it. There isn't another doctor on the station who could do that and not have to give in under command privilege.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grey Watcher View Post
    A decent explanation, though it still feels a bit odd that, for example, he's called into set Ivanova's broken ankle. Yes, she's command staff and therefore a VIP, but it still feels weird to call in the head of the hospital for something that a layperson could do with a little bit of training. (Yes, you want a doctor, nurse, or similar nearby in case there's some unforseen complication, but still.) Stuff like operating on Kosh or finding a cure for Drafa makes sense to call in the Chief of Staff to handle personally. Livesaving care for the Chief of Security after he's been shot, plausible. But routine stuff like a broken bone or a dietary plan? (Of course, short of a show like Scrubs or M*A*S*H, where the medical facility IS the whole show, condensing an entire medical staff into one person is pretty common because it's fewer characters for the audience to keep track of and fewer actors to pay.)
    I recently watched the episode of TNG where Dr. Crusher gets punted into a reality pocket and the rest of the crew starts disappearing slowly as the reality pocket shrinks. According to that episode I think she had somewhere around 20 staff nurses under her. I don't think we ever see more than one or two people in Sickbay.

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    I always find it fascinating which topics get the longest discussions here.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yora View Post
    I always find it fascinating which topics get the longest discussions here.
    Who cares about overarching themes or exploring the human psyche when there's nitpicking about the set to be done!?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodin View Post
    I recently watched the episode of TNG where Dr. Crusher gets punted into a reality pocket and the rest of the crew starts disappearing slowly as the reality pocket shrinks. According to that episode I think she had somewhere around 20 staff nurses under her. I don't think we ever see more than one or two people in Sickbay.
    Nurse Ogawa was a pretty common secondary character, but, yeah.
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    S3E8: Messages from Earth

    Marcus is escorting a woman in Brown Sector where they are attacked by thugs. He fights them off but the woman is badly injured and taken to medlab. He tells Franklin that she has connections to dangerous people and to have her guarded while he does more snooping around.

    Garibaldi goes to see G'Kar in jail, who is spending his time thinking and writing. He asks Garibaldi how he's progressing reading the Narn holy book, and he says it's slow work because he still has to learn the Narn language to read it, since there are no translations of it. Garibaldi wonders what new insights G'Kar is writing down and told he can read it when it's finished. (And they totally do an Apocalypse Now homage shot of G'Kar leaning back into the shadow.)
    Garibaldi gets called to a secret meeting by Ivanova because the package from Earth has finally arrived.

    It turns out to be the woman Marcus was escorting, who has extremely important information and needed to be smuggled out to safety. That reveal is somehow shown as being a super huge deal, probably letting us know that this is going to be really important.

    The woman works for a company searching for ancient alien technology and seven years earlier they found a Shadow ship buried on Mars. The Earth government claiming that the recording of a Shadow ship in hyperspace from one of Babylon 5's fighters shows something completely unknown is clearly a lie. Almost everyone who knows about the discovery is now dead, and she's certain that she will be caught as well sooner or later, but before that she wants to share all the information she has.
    A week after they had reported the discovery, they had been ordered to leave the dig site and wait at the main camp, but saw lots of unmarked shuttles flying to the dig over several days. When the shuttles stopped coming, another Shadow ship arrived in the sky, dug out the one that was buried. Half an hour later the buried ship lifted off and they both disappeared into space.
    Garibaldi was a shuttle pilot on Mars at the time and saw the dig site when he got lost. When he came back later to investigate, the ship was gone, but he found a PsiCorp badge in the empty hole.
    A few weeks ago another buried ship was found on a Jupiter Moon and the woman was called to help dig it out. And she is certain that this time the Earth government wants to keep the ship for themselves, as a weapon to secure their own power.
    Delenn tells Lennier to arrange for the woman to be send to Mibar where she should be safe from human agents.

    Zack is informed by another Nightwatch man from the security service that they have another meeting tomorrow. These have become very frequent and the other gay says big things are coming.

    Sherridan and Delenn decide that there is no other option than to take the White Star to Jupiter and attempt to destroy the ship before it can be recovered. If they are destroyed by EarthForce defenses, Ivanova and Franklin have to fake his death in a starfighter accident to explain his disappearance to not draw any attention to the station.

    The Nightwatch people are being told that there is a deep state conspiracy of senators, the military, and the media to overthrow the government and sell out humanity to unnamed alien powers. To fight it back, plans are already in motion for a massive purge of all people who are involved with unpatriotic activities.

    Ivanova is frustrated about having to run the station by herself while waiting to hear anything about Sherridan and Delenn succeeding or surviving, with really no idea what the fallout of the whole situation will be, or what might happen if they can't destroy the ship. Marcus tries to be supportive, but it doesn't make her feel any better.

    As the White Star comes out of hyperspace at Jupiter, they are picking up a message about the shadow ship being made ready for reactivation by sending in someone who will be its new living computer core. The ship lifts off, crashes through the roof above the pit, and starts lasering the nearby buildings. Delenn thinks the new pilot went insane when he was connected to the ship and does not have full control over the ship, so they might have some chance to defeat it. They get a good hit at the Shadow ship and Sherridan orders the White Star to fly inside Jupiter, betting on the ship to chase them and being still too weak to make it back out. Which works, but the White Star gets a bit damaged.
    As they try to make it back into space, they are discovered by the heavy cruiser Agamenon, which just happens to be Sherridan's old ship. They are calling the White Star to come out and surrender and are pursuing at a higher altitude. Sherridan orders Lennier to take the ship higher and then activiate the jump drive before they can be captured.

    They make it back to the station and the news claim the explosion caused by the jump drive destroyed the unknown ship.

    The other Nightwatch guy found out that Sherridan was away but its not in the records, which clearly is suspicious activity. If he could find it out, then Garibaldi must have known about it, and so he wants Zack to go spying on Garibaldi. Zack doesn't want to but is told he has to decide between his friend and his duty to defend Earth.

    Marcus comes to Ivanova's quarters with a hand drawn cardboard chart of relationships within their conspiracy because she said something about not having a clue how the hierarchy between station officers and rangers is supposed to work. He also thinks he has figured out the organizational structure based on using the Otoman Empire as a model. Trolling Level 100.
    It works to cheer her up, but Sherridan calls her to watch the news, since the president is starting his purge and putting Earth under martial law.

    --

    I say good episode, but as main story episodes go, this is actually one of the less strong ones. Previous episodes were a lot more impressive. It's still really decent with plenty of good stuff, but even with plenty of Battlecrab action, this one just doesn't reach a similar sense of tension and urgency.
    I think the main problem might lie in the pacing. Sherridan, Delenn, and Lennier going on a raid to Jupiter with a high expectation of getting destroyed in a battle with EarthForce ships somehow feels like a quick round around the corner. Instead it feels like something that should have gotten an entire episode just to itself.

    This episode the Earth Corruption storyline finally does get some real traction. I think it's last high point was when the old president's ship was blown up in S1E22: Chrysalis. Since then it has only been simmering very ominously, but with nothing actually happening. I can kind of sea the idea behind it, but this show is so earnest and open about its stance on these things that none of it feels even partially hidden or ambiguous. At every point you have a very clear picture of what is going on with the government. I think in this regard, the show might not have trusted the audience enough to see the writing on the wall. Instead everything was made as clear as it can get without a character directly saying that there is totalitarian takeover of Earth in the style of the Nazis and Soviets.*

    That moment when it is revealed that the package Marcus was tracking in the previous episode was the scientists who is then brought to the meeting room with the hero was actually really over the top. And now that I've seen the whole episode and what came out of it, it does feel somewhat ridiculous in hindsight. The scene transition makes it look like this is the most important moment in the whole story of the show. (And it's just 3 episodes short of the halfway point for originally planned five seasons.) But she really just gives a bit new information that is not actually that much more mind blowing than any other reveals about the shadow in the show so far.
    Really weird moment.

    Seeing the shadow ships hovering over the surface of planets in all their demonic splendor is pretty cool, though.

    Having just recently watched Deep Space Nine, I noticed immediately that that show also had an episode about the Defiant hiding from more powerful ships inside a gas planet while hoping not to get crushed. And I am sure viewers at the time of the original airing would have noticed as well, since the DS9 episode ran just three months earlier.
    I have no clue how the production schedules on these shows work, but it does indeed raise questions.

    *I am an absolute hater of remakes and normally consider them a waste of time somewhere between disappointing and shameful. But Babylon 5 really strikes me as a show that would benefit hugely from the developments TV sci-fi shows have made over the last two decades. Better sets, effects, and props, and writers and directors with more experience regarding modern shows could make something truly amazing out of this material. The visuals are not even that important. But a better understanding of pacing, foreshadowing, and subtle implications that we see in great shows from recent years would really give it a huge boost. It might not even need a fifth season and perhaps could cover all the material properly in 88 episodes if you take out some of the unnecessary early fillers. And doing a clean version of the story where Sinclair and Talia don't get switched out would also be interesting.
    However, I think it can not be denied that a very important element of the show's charm is its low-budget, B-list status. B-list productions have always had more leeway in being able to say what they want how they want, without being overly restrained by maintaining mass appeal for the widest audiences possible. Even Hollywood being a whole big anti-patriotic socialist conspiracy (or whoever it is who makes TV), I think something important might get lost in a transition to big league production. And like most remakes, it would most likely end up being nothing more than a cash grab by people who don't understand the show.
    While I would not expect anything good to come from it, I think I still would love to hear a remake getting announced. It most likely would be terrible, but what would be the harm in that? Even with a slim chance, the reward could potentially be great.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yora View Post
    S3E8: Messages from Earth

    This episode the Earth Corruption storyline finally does get some real traction. I think it's last high point was when the old president's ship was blown up in S1E22: Chrysalis. Since then it has only been simmering very ominously, but with nothing actually happening. I can kind of sea the idea behind it, but this show is so earnest and open about its stance on these things that none of it feels even partially hidden or ambiguous. At every point you have a very clear picture of what is going on with the government. I think in this regard, the show might not have trusted the audience enough to see the writing on the wall. Instead everything was made as clear as it can get without a character directly saying that there is totalitarian takeover of Earth in the style of the Nazis and Soviets.*
    I think what they were going for was a "pull the rug out from under the heroes" moment (not unlike failing to stop the assassination in Chrysalis): get the audience used to the very-obvious-but-nonetheless-incremental worsening of the EA's political situation and then abruptly drop them hammer. The instant lurch from "steadily worsening problem" to "full blown catastrophe" has some oomph to it, I think. There's an argument to be made that that reveal should've come a hair earlier to give the shock more time to resonate, but I still think it works pretty well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yora View Post
    That moment when it is revealed that the package Marcus was tracking in the previous episode was the scientists who is then brought to the meeting room with the hero was actually really over the top. And now that I've seen the whole episode and what came out of it, it does feel somewhat ridiculous in hindsight. The scene transition makes it look like this is the most important moment in the whole story of the show. (And it's just 3 episodes short of the halfway point for originally planned five seasons.) But she really just gives a bit new information that is not actually that much more mind blowing than any other reveals about the shadow in the show so far.
    Really weird moment.
    It's a minor thing really, but recycling the "heavenly choir" music in such short succession is really, really jarring to me. Like "snap you out of the narrative because that was so freaking blatant" jarring.

    I get that budgets and schedules mean that sometimes you have to copy-paste things and sometimes have to go with "good enough," but this is one of the few instances where I can never quite look past it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yora View Post
    *I am an absolute hater of remakes and normally consider them a waste of time somewhere between disappointing and shameful. But Babylon 5 really strikes me as a show that would benefit hugely from the developments TV sci-fi shows have made over the last two decades. Better sets, effects, and props, and writers and directors with more experience regarding modern shows could make something truly amazing out of this material. The visuals are not even that important. But a better understanding of pacing, foreshadowing, and subtle implications that we see in great shows from recent years would really give it a huge boost. It might not even need a fifth season and perhaps could cover all the material properly in 88 episodes if you take out some of the unnecessary early fillers. And doing a clean version of the story where Sinclair and Talia don't get switched out would also be interesting.
    However, I think it can not be denied that a very important element of the show's charm is its low-budget, B-list status. B-list productions have always had more leeway in being able to say what they want how they want, without being overly restrained by maintaining mass appeal for the widest audiences possible. Even Hollywood being a whole big anti-patriotic socialist conspiracy (or whoever it is who makes TV), I think something important might get lost in a transition to big league production. And like most remakes, it would most likely end up being nothing more than a cash grab by people who don't understand the show.
    While I would not expect anything good to come from it, I think I still would love to hear a remake getting announced. It most likely would be terrible, but what would be the harm in that? Even with a slim chance, the reward could potentially be great.
    I'd be very leery of an announced remake of B5. I just don't know if the potential improvements are worth it. I'd rather see a sequel, a prequel, some sort of spiritual successor, or something else that builds on it. I just feel like going through and trying to fix every last little crack and flaw, every "meh" filler episode, every lackluster-in-hindsight special effect, and every not-exactly-as-intended plot thread, you're going to end up with something very polished and very uninspiring.

    And that's before you factor in the inevitable flamewars about which episodes even count as filler, which fillers have enough charm/nostalgia to be worth keeping, whether Talia's version of the station's residen telepath arc is better or worse than Lyta's, how new!Sinclair's actor compares to O'Hare and on and on and on and on... . I just can't begin to imagine how it'd be even remotely worth the effort.

    Of course, if you wanted to do something really out there: announce a B5 reboot, follow season 1 pretty closely for a bit and then do something wildly different that takes everything in a whole new direction like, I dunno, Delenn being the one who takes Morden's offer and watch the fandom go collectively insane.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grey Watcher View Post
    Who cares about overarching themes or exploring the human psyche when there's nitpicking about the set to be done!?
    Honestly, the human themes don't always warrant that much discussing. In terms of more popular, accessible works, the best you can hope for is that through all of the entertaining drama or action, they manage to get you to think about something profound or controversial without hitting you over the head with it. The really profound themes in B5 tend to be pretty simple and close to universal--so there's not really much to debate or too many new insights that most people haven't already thought about--while the more controversial ones tend to edge very close to the rules against political discussions, since JMS did pretty much sell this as a sci-fi political-thriller.

    Personally, I'd love to talk about things like how B5, the Expanse, and Firefly all came up with very different answers when talking about how the unique challenges of space impacted how governments and people shifted on the whole authoritarian/libertarian scale, or how B5 dealt with propaganda and revisionist history, but it's really not practical to do so here.


    I would be in favor of a remake if they gave JMS strong control over it. A little bit of polish on the visual effects would go a long way, but more importantly, they could avoid the big problem having to compress five season into four, before coming up with a season of new material. I think the last two attempts at a sequel (or for that matter, season 5) show that maybe the setting isn't big enough for a new story that's as compelling as the two big conflicts in B5. Excalibur managed to have big stakes that were arguably on par with the Earth conspiracy and the Shadow War arcs, but somehow I never found the characters all that compelling. And Legend of the Rangers had a fun cast and seemed to be doing well with it's scrappy crew of misfits premise, but the pilot didn't seem to have even a hint of a purpose for the proposed series.
    Last edited by Xyril; 2020-03-12 at 03:58 PM.

  30. - Top - End - #600
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    RedWizardGuy

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    Mar 2009

    Default Re: Yora reviews Babylon 5

    Quote Originally Posted by Xyril View Post
    I think the last two attempts at a sequel (or for that matter, season 5) show that maybe the setting isn't big enough for a new story that's as compelling as the two big conflicts in B5. Excalibur managed to have big stakes that were arguably on par with the Earth conspiracy and the Shadow War arcs, but somehow I never found the characters all that compelling. And Legend of the Rangers had a fun cast and seemed to be doing well with it's scrappy crew of misfits premise, but the pilot didn't seem to have even a hint of a purpose for the proposed series.
    I assume you mean Crusade instead of Excalibur? Crusade was the name of the show. Excalibur was the name of the ship.
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